COVID-19 & Easter Services

[Bigslug]

This outsider honestly wants to know where you come down on the topic of churches going ahead with their services, because Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, etc... it's all the same to me.

The Catholics have dialed back their usual Easter festivities to remote practices. Italy getting so totally hammered by the virus no doubt played some part in this. Other denominations following suit.

Then there are the sects going ahead as usual, risking the setback of three-ish weeks of state-directed virus mitigation. What's your take on these? Regional need to keep the collection plate passed? Zealots who think their faith makes them bulletproof (we'll be confirming that within three weeks)? They need to get out and be SEEN to be good Christians? Something else?

These folks stand to get a lot of people both inside and outside of their congregations killed, and for a group that likely espouses that their god is everywhere and that location shouldn't matter, I find it more than a little mystifying that they can't just agree to practice where they are.

Please discuss.

[dverna]

Should be moved to the Pit. IMHO

[1hole]

I have no opinion on holding or not holding service these days, there are far to many unknowns for me to make that judgement.

What DOES make me boil is for "government" at any level to forbid holding services and use the power of police guns to arrest/fine those who refuse to bend a knee to some politician's rules; that's rightly called tyranny! :twisted:

Constitutionally, guberment can and should make safety recommendations but the final decision to hold religious services should be left up to each congregation and individual. Each church and its leadership knows their situation.

Government has no more legitimate right to mandate that citizens of a free country must not go to church than they do for insisting everyone must go to church! (Did I mention that, on average, I despise power hungry government and it's ding-bat "experts"??)

[roadie]

I think a lot of people feel that in order to worship, they have to be in a church with someone leading them. I won't speak to the saneness of doing that in these times......people believe what they believe. Possibly there is some coaxing going on from those who like to see a full collection plate......stranger things have happened. If they do it sensibly, masks, social distancing, then who am I to say they shouldn't, or can't.

I would think it's a hard thing to deal with, on the one hand they might feel they'll be cursed by their god if they don't, on the other, they might feel they'll be saved even if they contract the virus.

Not to defame anyone, or any religion, but there are some who dance with rattlesnakes, and I can see those people being hard to persuade to do things differently.......besides, for all I know, those people may be right. Mind you, if I ever get religion, I ain't dancing with any snakes.

I know I'll be taking a chance with my soul, but hell, I'm doing that now.......no snakes, no how, no way.

[Thundarstick]

"Constitutionally, guberment can and should make safety recommendations but the final decision to hold religious services should be left up to each congregation and individual. Each church and its leadership knows their situation."

This is what the state of Tennessee has done! Many congregations have opted for alternatives to public services, but many more have never suspended their worship services! Had I not worked today, I would have been in a public worship service!

[FLINTNFIRE]

Freedom of religion should be left up to people to act as to their beliefs and what they think sooner or later we will all be exposed to this and I really doubt there will be a vaccine for it .

[1hole]

Hebrews 10:25 - "Forgetting not to assemble yourselves ..."

My wife and I love to "assemble" with our small church family in the house dedicated to worshipping together with the Holy Spirit and now, after missing two weekly services, I really miss 'em. (And my pastor has not requested money in at least 15 years.)

I've read of snake handlers but neither I nor anyone I've met has ever seen it. Won't deny it happens but it sure seems to be rare.

[roadie]

Hebrews 10:25 - "Forgetting not to assemble yourselves ..."

My wife and I love to "assemble" with our small church family in the house dedicated to worshipping together with the Holy Spirit and now, after missing two weekly services, I really miss 'em. (And my pastor has not requested money in at least 15 years.)

I've read of snake handlers but neither I nor anyone I've met has ever seen it. Won't deny it happens but it sure seems to be rare.



See, that's the thing.......so many passages in the bible are subject to individual interpretation. That passage could just as well apply to not forgetting to assemble yourself in your "house"....to keeping your "house" in order......and have nothing to do with assembling with others......your body is a vessel kinda thing. ( very possible that's misquoted )

I doubt that a loving god would condemn his children if circumstances prevented them from assembling all together, there has to be flexibility for those who could not for whatever reason........otherwise, that's a harsh entity you're dealing with.

[Bigslug]

What DOES make me boil is for "government" at any level to forbid holding services and use the power of police guns to arrest/fine those who refuse to bend a knee to some politician's rules; that's rightly called tyranny! :twisted:

Constitutionally, guberment can and should make safety recommendations but the final decision to hold religious services should be left up to each congregation and individual. Each church and its leadership knows their situation.


No debate on most of that. With precautions, a church is probably not much different than a grocery store, aside from maybe sitting in close proximity to a carrier for a longer period of time. That being the case, they shouldn't be specifically singled out.

The question I have, and relates to the boldfaced bit, is (1.) do they? and (2.) are they acting like it?, or is caution being thrown totally to the wind? There is potentially a yelling-"FIRE!"-in-a-crowded-theater component to this aspect of taking the hardest possible line.

[dtknowles]

It would have thought it would normally take Marshal Law to impose some of what we are seeing. I guess, a declaration of national emergency is enough. Yes, it is an infringement of our freedoms but covered but law. It is not a violation of religious freedoms as it applies to all gatherings not just religious ones. It seems that the worse violations of restrictions on gatherings are being done by a small percentage of religious groups. There are anecdotes about some gatherings causing clusters of disease. God does not require us to gather, God probably does like it that we sometimes gather. We don't expect the sick to attend Church.

Personally I don't mind if a small part of the population risk their health and the health of their family and friends by gathering. The point of social distancing is not to stop the spread of the virus, just slow the spread so as to not overwhelm the hospitals, doctors and nurses. We might all end up getting the virus, I prefer to delay getting it for as long as possible so that before I get the virus, better treatments become available, testing is more wide spread, doctors and nurses are better rested and better trained and experienced in treatments. Who knows maybe I can even avoid getting the virus long enough that a vaccine will be available.

They might lift the restrictions before I am ready to give up social distancing or am ready to go back to work. I will stay home as long as I want. I don't expect the general public or politicians to do the right thing. The media is very full of a wide range of info and ideas and editorials and lies. Better safe than sorry. I am sorry for the sick and the disadvantaged who can't afford to stay at home and the disadvantaged who are staying at home and will not be able to pay their bills.

The doctors and nurses who keep going to work and saving lives have my upmost respect and I will do what I can to ease their burden. Staying at home, social distancing and other preventive measures are not just something you do for yourself, you do it to save others and help the doctors and nurses.

Tim

[SwissShooter]

MARTIAL law will happen if Biden wins.

[1hole]

MARTIAL law will happen if Biden wins.

Martial Law would take place no matter which of the Dem candidates should win. Martial Law would be in place NOW if Pelousy or Shumer had the power to make it happen - all for our own good of course. :twisted:

[ioon44]

This discussion led me to read Numbers chapter 5 which deals with certain people to be put out of the camp.

[Ickisrulz]

The general guidance of the Bible (Old Testament) on disease and illness is to isolate the sick (i.e., unclean) from the general population. This was, of course, to limit the spread of communicable diseases.

During a time when we might not be able to detect Covid-19 in all carriers, it is a good idea for churches to suspend services. A church gathering these days is not a demonstration of faith. It is counter to commonsense and the biblical model.

[dverna]

This discussion led me to read Numbers chapter 5 which deals with certain people to be put out of the camp.

Quarantine.....

[OutHuntn84]

I have had a saying for years. If you're going to live life afraid of dying you are missing the best part about living. Most folks are using common sense and weighing the risk and reward as far as exposure goes. I still go to work everyday. Stop by the store every few weeks. Go get gas and the like. For some people church makes that list of things worth exposing yourself. These are all choices free people should be allowed to make for themselves. If for no other reason than natural selection. A very wise man once said something about those willing to trade liberty for safety; you should look into that.

[SwissShooter]

"Those who will trade liberty for safety deserve neither." Franklin I believe.

[Bigslug]

"Those who will trade liberty for safety deserve neither." Franklin I believe.

Ben said a lot good things. I think it might be time for a revision about that "hanging together" thing though. ;)

Like Ickisrulz says in post #14, there is a certain reason vs. madness component to this. There is often talk of the "moderate Muslims" reigning in their more extremist members. This seems to me to be sort of in that boat since you're not just jumping off a cliff; you're potentially taking me with you. One of my core gripes about religion is that it often roots in dogmas - ancient or otherwise - that fly in the face of using the good sense (and Skype connection) that God, Darwin, or the Scientific Method gave you.

Mainly, I think I'm viewing this as an interesting study of how the various groups interact with the world outside their church doors. It does not need to be religiously motivated - - we've got plenty of historical precedent for renegade elements that endanger society as a whole receiving sanctions for coloring outside the lines (good and bad both, granted).

If there is an Old Testament verse on Abraham's Guidelines for Disease Control, or a New Testament Gospel of Cooties, it might be a good time for some polite re-Tweeting. :drinks:

[Blackwater]

The Lord allows us to suffer many humbling things that we don't want, but maybe He sees we need in order to refocus our attentions where they need to be. I'm sure most of us here will appreciate the service much more next year, than has been characteristic of our recent past. He loves us enough to discipline us, and oftentimes, we don't "hear" him unless the problem he allows us to be presented with is pretty heavy.

For my own self, I just got nice and cozy alone, and poured out my heart to Him, and thanked Him for all that He is and all that He's done for me in my time here. His blessings, just in my life, outnumber the stars in the sky. It's taken a very long time for me to realize that, but it was worth it. How could I be anything but humble when I realize how much He's done for me? How He's loved me when I waan't very lovable, led me when I didn't want to be led, and cared for me when I wasn't caring very well for myself. He's given us this beautiful world to live in, that feeds us with plenty, and gives us so many things that we need for our easy, modern life. We take so very much for granted. Times like these can be good for us, in that they remind us none of this is permanent, and all mortal existence is fleeting. Only when we've proven ourselves to be suitable for Heaven can we count on anything really permanent, and immortality. It all seems to make perfect sense, if you look at it from the right perspective - one of humility and honesty. Our God is a loving God. He demonstrated that when He laid down his life an atonement for OUR sins, not his own. How can anyone not realize who and what God truly is?

[Thundarstick]

Truth be told, if this latest SARS outbreak (this is the third) had been handled prudently, the public would have been educated to the risk this disease poses to certain high risk individuals in our communities. Then these individuals could have made their own decision about the risk they are willing to take. To suspend gatherings because of a disease you can't see is silly, as there are many diseases that fit that category. For instance, many people eat raw oysters, I do not because of the risk of Vibrio. The flu, TB, MRSA, etc etc are diseases that CAN be spread unknowingly. Essentially education and risk assessment will have to be practiced, as the disease runs it's course over the next year, no matter what the government, or your congressional leadership decide, but to so willingly give up assemblies just because the governor said so, please!

[Blackwater]

First He gave His life for us, and left behind a grand collection of instruction and advice for us, but He also provided us with a huge brain, compared to all other creatures here, and an ability to use it, if we but simply will. I have most of the weaknesses that Covid-19 preys on, and I do NOT think Christ would have me expose myself to them unnecessarily. If I'm wrong in this, then I'm sincerely wrong. But I don't believe I am. My wife goes to work every day, despite my pleas to stay home. We'll see how that works out. I have only the Lord to protect me now.

[Bigslug]

It would seem that one of the congregation leaders involved in this controversy has been killed by the virus: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/virginia-bishop-gerald-glenn-coronavirus-dead_n_5e955c7dc5b6cc788eae79bc

I suppose ANYBODY looking for guidance on the matter just got some. Erg. :?

[1hole]

Slug, I think you're missing the point; no one has suggested the public should dismiss the hazard of the virus. What some of us find offensive is that gobberment bureaucrats are making illegal rules and enforcing their rules with the power of gobbermunt guns and jails against citizens simply exercising freedom of religion as they choose.

My church leaders decided to hold services normally; I deciided to not attend at this time. That's freedom of religion as it should be and I won't meekly get on my knees and bow to "govmint experts" telling me if, how and when I may attend services. I like freedom of religion, I think that's what our founders intended for a free people.

In fact, freedom of (legitimate) religion is one of the freedoms I once chose to defend to the death by wearing a uniform in service to the lofty ideals of this constitutional republic; those are your freedom's as well as mine. And, while you and I strongly disagree on religion, I will still do all I can to protect your right to be wrong.

Like most happy-clappy liberal anti-gun rules, the current political "no church services" rules are NOT constitutional, they're more "well meant" government tyranny! I'm not happy about that, nor am I happy that so many of our people have meekly bent their knees before unconstitutional tyranny.

To put all this in words even non-religious people on this website can understand, "expert" political powers to restrict our freedoms "for our own good" mindset also threatens our private ownership and use of firearms.


Note: The only natural hazards for American firearms is rust and politicians - especially Democrats working hard to "help the [docile] little people!" I can be screwed by gobermunt (they have many more guns and trigger fingers than I do) but I'm not docile.