Practice Loads For The LW J frames

[oldhenry]

The congregation in our church is close to 80% seniors & many are widows. A few years ago some of the ladies began to buy a handgun: most of them LW J frame S&Ws. Sadly most of them have never fired theirs & those that did had a bad time because of the recoil caused by the light weight ( 2 or 3 shots was enough). Most of them know that I have a range @ my house & are interested in learning to shoot. We had a Gun Safety class scheduled for 3/22 but the COVID-19 stopped that.

In the meanwhile I thought it best to develop a load that had low recoil which would allow them to learn the fundamentals without developing a permanent flinch (their range day will be one at a time).

The photo shows what I came up with.

The load on the left uses the Lyman #358345 that Lyman stated is 115 gr. with their #2 alloy. With my 50/50+1.5 it weighs 121 gr.. Over 3.5 gr. of HP38 it is a definite improvement of any factory load. I crimped it slightly on the forward edge. It's a 2 lube grove design & I could lube the lower groove only & slightly crimp on the upper groove. The only negative is the fact that my #358345 mold is a single cav..

The load on the right uses the MP 359-115 BB. With the same alloy it weighs 120 gr.. I loaded it over 3.0 of WST & it's pleasant to shoot. A friend & his wife came over today & she shot 50 of them in her S&W 640. She likes the load & want me to load 150 more. This mold is a 8 cav. which is a plus. Note: this is a practice load only: at 12 yds. it requires a high hit on a IHMSA chicken to tip it over

There is no doubt that the recoil with the #358345 would be lower (equal to the MP load) with 3.0 of WST.

WST is Winchester's best kept secret

[country gent]

I would start them out with wax bullets up close. these are great for getting the basics of sight alignment, trigger pull, and gun handling down. ALso no recoil very little report to scare them. Then work up to bullseye level wad cutters, then a mid range 38 spl loading.

My wax bullet loading is 38 spl brass with the flash holes drilled out to .105. I melt wax into a 1/2" deep tray and push the case mouths thru it into the case then prime with a standard primer. No recoil, very accurate, and very quiet. I made my cases up to use large pistol primers so they dont get mixed with normal brass, but thats not necessary.

My wadcutter load is 2.7 grns of bullseye with a 148 hollow based wadcutter. Light recoil light report and good accuracy.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Two loads that have worked for this purpose for me:
1. 148 grain wadcutter with even less than 2.7 grains Bullseye; 2.4 grains still worked well for me; some say 2.0 grains works
2. NOE 100 grain wadcutter with 2.7 grains Bullseye; POI is low, but at short range that still works okay

[tazman]

The congregation in our church is close to 80% seniors & many are widows. A few years ago some of the ladies began to buy a handgun: most of them LW J frame S&Ws. Sadly most of them have never fired theirs & those that did had a bad time because of the recoil caused by the light weight ( 2 or 3 shots was enough). Most of them know that I have a range @ my house & are interested in learning to shoot. We had a Gun Safety class scheduled for 3/22 but the COVID-19 stopped that.

In the meanwhile I thought it best to develop a load that had low recoil which would allow them to learn the fundamentals without developing a permanent flinch (their range day will be one at a time).

The photo shows what I came up with.

The load on the left uses the Lyman #358345 that Lyman stated is 115 gr. with their #2 alloy. With my 50/50+1.5 it weighs 121 gr.. Over 3.5 gr. of HP38 it is a definite improvement of any factory load. I crimped it slightly on the forward edge. It's a 2 lube grove design & I could lube the lower groove only & slightly crimp on the upper groove. The only negative is the fact that my #358345 mold is a single cav..

The load on the right uses the MP 359-115 BB. With the same alloy it weighs 120 gr.. I loaded it over 3.0 of WST & it's pleasant to shoot. A friend & his wife came over today & she shot 50 of them in her S&W 640. She likes the load & want me to load 150 more. This mold is a 8 cav. which is a plus. Note: this is a practice load only: at 12 yds. it requires a high hit on a IHMSA chicken to tip it over

There is no doubt that the recoil with the #358345 would be lower (equal to the MP load) with 3.0 of WST.

WST is Winchester's best kept secret

I use that WST load with the Lee 125 rf. It shoots accurately in my revolvers, including one J frame, and burns cleanly. It is a little bit faster powder and seals the case better.
It has the added advantage of shooting to point of aim in my handguns due to it's lower velocity.
Your 115 grain boolits should work equally well with even less recoil.
That 3.0 grain load also works well with 148 grain wadcutters.

[smkummer]

2.8 grs. bullseye and Lee 125 RF is my cowboy load. If I use an undersized 125 grain 9mm bullet, they sound weak with sooty cases. I shoot 1-2000 rounds of 3.0 grains bullseye and Lee’s 148 TL wadcutter a year. Some of the shooters are ladies but no one is past 65 yet. A couple of the guns are Lightweight alloy colt agents. No complaints from them but none have arthritis yet.

[pettypace]

That 3.0 grain load also works well with 148 grain wadcutters.


I shoot 1-2000 reds. of 3.0 grains bullseye and Lee’s 148 TL wadcutter a year. Some of the shooters are ladies but no one is past 65 yet. A couple of the guns are Lightweight alloy colt agents. No complaints from them but none have arthritis yet.

Here's another vote for wadcutters. I don't know what velocity you're getting from the 120 grain round nose. But suppose it's 800 ft/s. Here's some data for that combo:

260088

And here's the same data calculated for a 148 grain wadcutter at 600 ft/s:

260089

The "PF" number at the top right is a good measure of the relative recoil of each load and shows that the wadcutter load would have slightly less recoil than the round nose load.

I know you are looking for a "practice" load and not a "duty" load. But if push came to shove, I'd much prefer that light wadcutter load over a lot of light weight and under-penetrating JHPs.

[Petrol & Powder]

It never ceases to bewilder me the number of woman that end up with small, lightweight handguns. While small concealable guns have their place, tiny guns are difficult to master. Most knowledgeable shooters know this but some gun store clerks and "helpful" friends seem to steer females towards little guns. Sometimes the women think they need a small lightweight gun and sometimes a "friend" steers them in that direction.
I've taught many woman how to shoot and unfortunately, that has often occurred after they purchased a gun.
If they show up with a very small handgun that they have never shot, I always start them on something else. After some gun handling, safety and marksmanship instruction; I start them on a .22 pistol or revolver and work to a 4" K-frame with 38 Special wadcutters.
Once they get the fundamentals down, we move to their gun. It is amazing how many of them prefer the 4" K-frame or mid-size semi-auto pistols.
I've even had a few acquire a different gun after that session.

Oldhenry, I commend you for your efforts.

[rintinglen]

I taught my daughters to shoot with a 75 grain 358-101 grain boolit over 2.4 grains of Bullseye. It did not shoot to point of aim, but at 7 yards, it was close enough. I initially tried 2.2 grains of Bullseye, but after my eldest stuck 4 boolits in the barrel of a Model 36 3 inch, I upped the powder charge a smidge to insure that the would leave the barrel. Later on, they graduated to 358-345 over 2.8 grains of Red Dot and kept me busy casting those little boogers for several years.

[country gent]

What is amazing is that the j frames used to be available with not only the 1 7/8" barrel but also 3", 4",and 5" barrels. Many ladies like the smaller grip frame of the j frames and buy them for that reason, It fits smaller hand better. Yet one of them with the 4" barrel would be a much better choice. I shot a all steel 36 with the 4" barrel and it was a sweet shooter recoil and blast were much more controllable, the longer sight radius made it easier to shoot. All in All a very nice handgun. ALot of older ladies also dont have the upper body strength for a heavier handgun.

[oldhenry]

I would start them out with wax bullets up close. these are great for getting the basics of sight alignment, trigger pull, and gun handling down. ALso no recoil very little report to scare them. Then work up to bullseye level wad cutters, then a mid range 38 spl loading.

My wax bullet loading is 38 spl brass with the flash holes drilled out to .105. I melt wax into a 1/2" deep tray and push the case mouths thru it into the case then prime with a standard primer. No recoil, very accurate, and very quiet. I made my cases up to use large pistol primers so they dont get mixed with normal brass, but thats not necessary.

My wadcutter load is 2.7 grns of bullseye with a 148 hollow based wadcutter. Light recoil light report and good accuracy.

Interesting suggestion on the wax bullets: I've never tried them. The closest thing I have to a wadcutter mold, is a Lyman #358432 which is the 160 gr. version. The 148 gr. version would be better, but as a rule I don't buy handgun boolits.

[oldhenry]

Two loads that have worked for this purpose for me:
1. 148 grain wadcutter with even less than 2.7 grains Bullseye; 2.4 grains still worked well for me; some say 2.0 grains works
2. NOE 100 grain wadcutter with 2.7 grains Bullseye; POI is low, but at short range that still works okay

Thanks for those BE loads. When I started loading/casting in 1960 I used BE exclusively mainly because I could load more rounds with it per $. I then went to P5066 as my mainstay. I went t back to BE in late '70s when I got into PPC (and they stopped making P5066). The 2.7 gr, load was my mainstay. Then came IPSC (and the power factor) so I went to Unique for a while until I accidentally discovered PB which I still believe to be the best all around handgun powder for cast boolits. PB was so good that they stopped making it (go figure).

I may need to get some BE: however, WST is very clean burning.

[oldhenry]

I use that WST load with the Lee 125 rf. It shoots accurately in my revolvers, including one J frame, and burns cleanly. It is a little bit faster powder and seals the case better.
It has the added advantage of shooting to point of aim in my handguns due to it's lower velocity.
Your 115 grain boolits should work equally well with even less recoil.
That 3.0 grain load also works well with 148 grain wadcutters.

Tazman, we have always agreed on WST

[oldhenry]

2.8 grs. bullseye and Lee 125 RF is my cowboy load. If I use an undersized 125 grain 9mm bullet, they sound weak with sooty cases. I shoot 1-2000 reds. of 3.0 grains bullseye and Lee’s 148 TL wadcutter a year. Some of the shooters are ladies but no one is past 65 yet. A couple of the guns are Lightweight alloy colt agents. No complaints from them but none have arthritis yet.

See my reply to Low Budget Shooter for my experience with BE.

The age of most of these ladies is "well into their .70's" & arthritis would be common among them. I'm 80 with some arthritis.

[lotech]

It never ceases to bewilder me the number of woman that end up with small, lightweight handguns. While small concealable guns have their place, tiny guns are difficult to master. Most knowledgeable shooters know this but some gun store clerks and "helpful" friends seem to steer females towards little guns. Sometimes the women think they need a small lightweight gun and sometimes a "friend" steers them in that direction.
I've taught many woman how to shoot and unfortunately, that has often occurred after they purchased a gun.
If they show up with a very small handgun that they have never shot, I always start them on something else. After some gun handling, safety and marksmanship instruction; I start them on a .22 pistol or revolver and work to a 4" K-frame with 38 Special wadcutters.
Once they get the fundamentals down, we move to their gun. It is amazing how many of them prefer the 4" K-frame or mid-size semi-auto pistols.
I've even had a few acquire a different gun after that session.

Oldhenry, I commend you for your efforts.

This guy knows what he is talking about and this is certainly the best post on the subject. I enjoy shooting J-frame guns, regular and lightweight, but these revolvers are very difficult guns to master. Takes much practice and good shooter technique, something few want to do nowadays. K-frame guns are certainly much larger, but comparatively are very forgiving when it comes to a shooter's lack of skill.

[oldhenry]

Pettypace, excellent information! Thanks

[oldhenry]

It never ceases to bewilder me the number of woman that end up with small, lightweight handguns. While small concealable guns have their place, tiny guns are difficult to master. Most knowledgeable shooters know this but some gun store clerks and "helpful" friends seem to steer females towards little guns. Sometimes the women think they need a small lightweight gun and sometimes a "friend" steers them in that direction.
I've taught many woman how to shoot and unfortunately, that has often occurred after they purchased a gun.
If they show up with a very small handgun that they have never shot, I always start them on something else. After some gun handling, safety and marksmanship instruction; I start them on a .22 pistol or revolver and work to a 4" K-frame with 38 Special wadcutters.
Once they get the fundamentals down, we move to their gun. It is amazing how many of them prefer the 4" K-frame or mid-size semi-auto pistols.
I've even had a few acquire a different gun after that session.

Oldhenry, I commend you for your efforts.

In '77 I bought my wife a S&W #49. It is small but being made of steel has sufficient weight to be controllable. I gave each of our two daughters a Ruger Speed Six (2.75 bbl.). Here again these gun have the weight to make shooting comfortable. My daughters are my shooting buddies & shoot full powered loads. My wife rarely joins in the shooting sessions, but is definitely able to defend herself.

To understand my wife: she mows the lawn, plants flowers & shrubs, helps bring in fire wood, keeps an immaculate house & one year wanted a chain saw for her birthday.

[oldhenry]

I taught my daughters to shoot with a 75 grain 358-101 grain boolit over 2.4 grains of Bullseye. It did not shoot to point of aim, but at 7 yards, it was close enough. I initially tried 2.2 grains of Bullseye, but after my eldest stuck 4 boolits in the barrel of a Model 36 3 inch, I upped the powder charge a smidge to insure that the would leave the barrel. Later on, they graduated to 358-345 over 2.8 grains of Red Dot and kept me busy casting those little boogers for several years.

I hope your #358345 isn't a single cavity. Do you use the top lube groove to crimp?

[oldhenry]

lotech, I agree

[Norske]

My 70-year-old wife shoots a Taurus 85 a lot better than I can. The "practice" load I make up for her is a 148 gr factory swaged HB wadcutter with the recommended powder charge from my Hornady manual. But I load the HB bullet backwards, making a nasty-looking hollow point (credit Skeeter Skelton).

[Bigslug]

Petrol & Powder pretty much nails it. A lot of guns get purchased on how it feels in the hand, with no consideration given to the physics that occur when the thing goes off.

The challenge in coaching folks who have already made that arguably wrong choice is usually going to be one of time. This is not your own kid who you have unlimited hours to start with BB guns, then work up through .22's and light loads, etc... They have their own schedules that you'll have to work around, and that's gonna cut into your ability to add variety effectively.

Your challenge is compounded with the fact that you have multiple old gals at various spots on that curve (One nice thing about COVID-19 is that we all now clearly understand curves. :mrgreen:). The best approach to meeting your goal is probably to come up with one .38 load that they can train with AND carry.

The answer there is probably to take something like the British .38/200 Webley approach - take your heaviest solid SWC mold and poot it out the barrel at about 700 fps. That will give you something they can handle, that will also do the job, that you can mass-produce.

[pettypace]

The best approach to meeting your goal is probably to come up with one .38 load that they can train with AND carry.

The answer there is probably to take something like the British .38/200 Webley approach - take your heaviest solid SWC mold and poot it out the barrel at about 700 fps. That will give you something they can handle, that will also do the job, that you can mass-produce.

I agree with the idea of a single load for practice and carry. But for this application I'd much prefer a 148 grain WC at 600 ft/s to a 158 grain SWC at 700 ft/s. Compared to the slower and lighter WC, the SWC would have considerably more recoil (+25%) but produce considerably less wound mass (-30%). And, by FBI standards at least, the SWC at 700 ft/s would have too much penetration.

Here are the numbers for a 158 grain SWC at 700 ft/s:

260134

And for the 148 grain WC at 600 ft/s:

260133

[35remington]

Another thing to note is the WC has vastly better ballistic consistency when lightly loaded in the large 38 Special case than either lighter or heavier more shallowly seated bullets.

The velocity variation present with light loads and light bullets in 38 with powder position shifts in the case, which is the normal condition, is downright depressing. For serious use they are contraindicated.