Loading 9mm 122gr FP cast bullets.

[PNW_Steve]

Hello Everyone,

I have had a number of questions answered that have helped me plan my reentry to the world of reloading.

I have purchased 9mm 122gr FP powder coated cast bullets to start out with. My plan is to work on getting 9mm reloading successfully using other peoples bullets before I start casting my own.

I have the Lee Classic Turret press.

I loaded a test round (no primer or powder. I seated the bullet for a COL of 1.15". The round chambered fine but stuck in the chamber. I added a bit more crimp (Lee factory crimp die) and now it fails the plunk test. The round stops about 1/16" short of being fully chambered.

I cab also detect a very slight bulge at the base of the bullet all of the way around.

Suggestions?

Thanks.

[TjB101]

Got a pic? ... with a flat point bullet your oal seems high.

[Chris S]

Check to make sure your not "scrubbing" the bullet going into the casing. If your using a combination seater/crimper die, I'll bet you are. If you are, your probably leaving a little builtup ring of lead or coating right at the edge of the case mouth. I have found that I have to seat and crimp in two steps using separate seating and crimping dies. I have also found that I need to flare 9mm's a bit more than I do my other calibers.

Chris

[garandsrus]

You probably need to seat the bullet a little deeper.

[Walks]

Throw away the fcd die and buy a Taper Crimp only.
Seat bullet in bullet seating die.
Crimp separately using Taper Crimp die.

[tazman]

Hello Everyone,

I have had a number of questions answered that have helped me plan my reentry to the world of reloading.

I have purchased 9mm 122gr FP powder coated cast bullets to start out with. My plan is to work on getting 9mm reloading successfully using other peoples bullets before I start casting my own.

I have the Lee Classic Turret press.

I loaded a test round (no primer or powder. I seated the bullet for a COL of 1.15". The round chambered fine but stuck in the chamber. I added a bit more crimp (Lee factory crimp die) and now it fails the plunk test. The round stops about 1/16" short of being fully chambered.

I cab also detect a very slight bulge at the base of the bullet all of the way around.

Suggestions?

Thanks.

You have two problems going on.
1--- You have the boolit loaded too long for a flat point. Most will plunk just fine at around 1.100. What I think is happening is the front drive band on the boolit is jamming into the rifling in front of the chamber(throat) and causing your issue. When you get one jammed and pull the cartridge out of the case, look at the sides of the boolit in front of the case and see if there are rifling marks on it. If there are marks there, you are definitely hitting the rifling. Shorten the OAL until it drops into the chamber easily then lengthen the OAL until it begins to jam then back it off a bit.
2-- When you added crimp, you put too much on. This will cause a bulge in the case right behind the crimp area which will jam the cartridge in the chamber before it reaches full battery. The slight bulge at the base of the boolit is probably not an issue.

Your Lee FCD will work fine when you get it adjusted properly. I use them on every handgun caliber I load for(5 different calibers) with no issues at all as far as chambering, accuracy, and leading the barrel.

[Burnt Fingers]

The reason the round stuck in the chamber had NOTHING to do with your crimp. Your OAL is too long.

[Kenstone]

Back off on the crimp and reset the seater to an OAL of 1.100".
That should give a round that will plunk and fall out of the barrel when inverted.

Crimp is really a "de-flare" and should not leave a mark on the bullet or bulge the case like you are seeing.
:mrgreen:

[winelover]

What Walks said...............

I don't measure my rounds by COAL............its just a starting point. All guns are different as are bullet designs. I measure Ogive length............which will always be shorter. Assemble a dummy round and seat to pass plunk test. Measure and record the ogive length. Manually cycle though action, making sure the length stays the same, afterwards. That is the ogive length you need for any style/design bullet in that particular firearm. I keep any dummies., in my die box, for resetting the seater whenever I should decide change to a different bullet design. I have multiple dummies, with different bullets...........what they all have in common is the same ogive length. Even though COAL's are different.

Have multiple 9 's, as I do? Determine what is the minimum ogive length that will function in them all and use that for them all. No need to keep separate ammunition for every 9mm firearm.

Works for me........... in five different 9 mm pistols and a carbine. BTW, I have yet to find it necessary to have a barrel throated............

Winelover

[ioon44]

I cast a Accurate 35-140-Z which has the same nose as the 122 gr FP, I have to seat the bullet to 1.025" to get it to plunk in my barrels.

Suggestions? get rid of the Lee factory crimp die.

[sparkyv]

I'm in the COAL is too long camp. I use 122gr FP cast bullets produced by CASTING MACHINE, and I load those out to 1.041" with no issues. My COAL max limit is determined by my CZ. Good to go in the CZ, good for all my others.

[mdi]

Tazman hit it squarely. Back way off on the crimp, and seat deeper. I have no use for an FCD and "crimping" a semi-auto round is a misnomer. I started reloading semi-autos in about '96 first 9mm and added 45 ACP, 380 ACP and 32 ACP, and I "crimp" none (jacketed, cast, PCed or Hi-tek coated). For several thousands of rounds I only "deflare" the case using a taper crimp die. 8-)

[fredj338]

OAL, always bullet & gun specific. TC will load much shorter than a RN. In a CZ, even shorter. Try a dummy round at 1.060", should work, if not, reduce 0.010" until it does chamder. Of you ate loading well off max, the pressure increase is not a big deal. As noted, crimping more os not the solution.
Fwiw, some brass brands get thicker at the middle than others. Most are foreign brands so I just toss those back & only load usa brands. Win, Rp, Fc, xtreme, lax all good. The only foreign brand I can work with 100% is pmc.

[PNW_Steve]

Thanks Everyone.

I used overall length numbers from the reloading manual for what looked like a similar bullet.

I will take it down to 1.050 and back off the crimp.

[tazman]

If it works ok a 1.050, make a few that are a bit longer until you find the longest length that will work properly.
The reason being, the longer the oal with a given boolit, the less pressure inside the case with a given powder charge. Due to the small case capacity of the 9mm cartridge, it is easy to get into an overpressure situation with deeply seated boolits.

[PNW_Steve]

If it works ok a 1.050, make a few that are a bit longer until you find the longest length that will work properly.
The reason being, the longer the oal with a given boolit, the less pressure inside the case with a given powder charge. Due to the small case capacity of the 9mm cartridge, it is easy to get into an overpressure situation with deeply seated boolits.

It did work at 1.050" and what Lee calls "light crimp". That is 1/2 turn on the FCD.

I will try a bit longer.

I think that I may be close to actually loading ammo. I have been looking around for loading data and am considering a starting load of 4 grains of W231. What do you all think?

[PNW_Steve]

Well I managed to get a COL of 1.065 to chamber properly.

Next up was tweaking on the press. The power measure would not dispense powder. Turns out that it was incorrectly assembled at the factory. Easy fix. Looking like its time to load some boolits :)

I loaded 25 rounds with 4.0 grains of Red Dot and headed to the range. Had the place to myself.

Much to my surprise 25 rounds cycled perfectly and all hit in the black.

I am going to try backing off the charge a bit and see if it tightens up a bit.

Given that I have been away from reloading for 20+ years and new to 9mm I am tickled that it played so well.

I shot my new Walther PPS and I think that I am going to like it. Next time I am going to take my AR carbine and see how it plays with my reloads.

[PNW_Steve]

Well I managed to get a COL of 1.065 to chamber properly.

Next up was tweaking on the press. The power measure would not dispense powder. Turns out that it was incorrectly assembled at the factory. Easy fix. Looking like its time to load some boolits :)

I loaded 25 rounds with 4.0 grains of Red Dot and headed to the range. Had the place to myself.

Much to my surprise 25 rounds cycled perfectly and all hit in the black.

I am going to try backing off the charge a bit and see if it tightens up a bit.

Given that I have been away from reloading for 20+ years and new to 9mm I am tickled that it played so well.

I shot my new Walther PPS and I think that I am going to like it. Next time I am going to take my AR carbine and see how it plays with my reloads.

[tazman]

I love it when it all works out.

[PNW_Steve]

Yeah, I do to.

Now I just have to figure out what I did right and keep doing it :)

[mdi]

FWIW; I keep a reloading log of every load I make. In the beginning I noted every step in my assembling ammo and was able to duplicate loads easily. After I shot the loads I made notes as to the group size, function if in a semi-auto, extraction, recoil, smoke, condition of the range, and my condition (I had what I called "bad eye days" where I could barely hit a VW bug at 50').It helped to develop consistent reloading methods, well for me it did...

[tazman]

Yeah, I do to.

Now I just have to figure out what I did right and keep doing it :)

That's why they call it a recipe. You can follow your notes and duplicate it anytime.

[GasGuzzler]

The Lee die will grow the OAL about 0.001-005. Not much I know but if you're already too long it makes it worse.

I'm looking into the Lee 358-125-RF sized to .357 for 9mm so your topic took my interest.

[tazman]

The Lee die will grow the OAL about 0.001-005. Not much I know but if you're already too long it makes it worse.

I'm looking into the Lee 358-125-RF sized to .357 for 9mm so your topic took my interest.

I am currently using that boolit sized to that dimension for some of my 9mm shooting and it works well. I tried it on suggestions on this site to see how it worked.'
When you size the boolit you can see the marks from the sizer on the sides. Seat the boolit to where those marks are even with the mouth of the case or just barely above. It should feed in anything seated that way and does so for me.

[PNW_Steve]

FWIW; I keep a reloading log of every load I make. In the beginning I noted every step in my assembling ammo and was able to duplicate loads easily. After I shot the loads I made notes as to the group size, function if in a semi-auto, extraction, recoil, smoke, condition of the range, and my condition (I had what I called "bad eye days" where I could barely hit a VW bug at 50').It helped to develop consistent reloading methods, well for me it did...


You can see a VW at 50'?? I need glasses...... :)

Thank you for bringing up the log. I need to dig through my stuff in the attic and see if I can find my old log book. And start a new one.

[mvintx]

Here's what I use. Not sure if this attachment worked though.

260486

[PNW_Steve]

Here's what I use. Not sure if this attachment worked though.

260486

Thank you!

[PNW_Steve]

Well I got a little range time in to try out my reloads in the 9mm carbine. I had optics trouble and cannot speak to accuracy. Function was ok. I had two FTE's. I am inclined to blame the gun. It appeared to fire normally but the following would not fire. I found the case had not ejected but had found its way into the lower receiver. Both times the brass was damaged. Not sure what to do about that?

Something else I noticed is the recoil was much gentler than Federal factory 115gr. The action seems to cycle slower as well. The factory ammo is actually a little harsh to shoot.

Not sure if I already said but I am shooting a powder coated 122gr TC over 4gr Red Dot.

I picked this load because I had the powder on hand. I should find a more appropriate powder for this application. Any suggestions or favorites?

[ioon44]

I don't see any thing wrong with using Red Dot, I have been using 700 X with 130 gr Hi-Tek coated bullets in my 9 mm RRA carbine with out any leading or feeding problems.
9 mm carbines can be a problem with feeding, I shoot USPSA matches and some one is always having feeding problems with there 9 mm carbines.

[trapper9260]

You have two problems going on.
1--- You have the boolit loaded too long for a flat point. Most will plunk just fine at around 1.100. What I think is happening is the front drive band on the boolit is jamming into the rifling in front of the chamber(throat) and causing your issue. When you get one jammed and pull the cartridge out of the case, look at the sides of the boolit in front of the case and see if there are rifling marks on it. If there are marks there, you are definitely hitting the rifling. Shorten the OAL until it drops into the chamber easily then lengthen the OAL until it begins to jam then back it off a bit.
2-- When you added crimp, you put too much on. This will cause a bulge in the case right behind the crimp area which will jam the cartridge in the chamber before it reaches full battery. The slight bulge at the base of the boolit is probably not an issue.

Your Lee FCD will work fine when you get it adjusted properly. I use them on every handgun caliber I load for(5 different calibers) with no issues at all as far as chambering, accuracy, and leading the barrel.You got it , I use the Lee FCD also on just about all I load and you need to adjust it to do what you looking for. also for the OAL for what is needed to do.

[onelight]

[QUOTE=tazman;4877683
When you size the boolit you can see the marks from the sizer on the sides. Seat the boolit to where those marks are even with the mouth of the case or just barely above. It should feed in anything seated that way and does so for me.[/QUOTE]
Great idea for a starting point tazman !
I have used red dot a lot in 9mm it's a versatile powder for handgun loads it's biggest complaint is metering , but I have found on the LCT with the pro auto disk it meters great.

[mvintx]

Steve, if you've got some Alliant Power Pistol available you might give that a try. It has been my 'go to' powder for several years for both 9mm and .40. Some folks complain about the muzzle flash you get with Power Pistol but I always like a little excitement when I shoot my guns. The flash is not noticeable (to me) in daylight.

Red Dot is a great powder for 9mm. It has less recoil than Power Pistol but does not meter as well through my Dillon powder measure. 4 grains of Red Dot chrongraphs around 1050 fps out of my Glock 19 (virtually the same velocity as my Power Pistol loads) and ought to be stout enough to function in your AR. But if factory FMJ ammo runs fine, you might looks at your buffer/spring combination. Some folks run heavier springs to try and reduce the recoil impulse and that can affect extraction/ejection with lighter loads. FYI I'm running a stock carbine spring with a KAK 10 oz buffer. I have not run my cast loads through my 9mm AR yet as I'm still fine-tuning my loading process but I'll be really surprised if it doesn't function with my Power Pistol loads.

Lastly, the key to getting 9mm cast loads to shoot well for me was the amount of crimp. I don't have a Lee FCD and some folks swear by them but if that's all you have then go with it. Crimp only enough so the diameter of the case mouth equals the size of the boolit plus the thickness of the case walls. My boolits measure .357". The case walls at the mouth measure .011". .357" plus .022" equals .379". I was previously crimping to .375" and my accuracy was all over the place. Just .004" made a huge difference in my accuracy results.

There is one more element to loading 9mm cast boolits and that is using a larger expander funnel. I had one made by one of the forum members here that expands the case mouth a bit deeper and wider than the factory expanders. My boolits will drop about half-way into the case before I seat them. With the factory expander it would barely sit on the belled case mouth and when it was seated to proper depth, was being swaged down enough to affect accuracy.

Hang in there, you'll get it figured out.

[Cherokee]

What "mvintx" said about expanders is good advice, I do something similar. WST and HS6 are also good powders for 9mm which I use with 122 gr TC cast bullets @ 1.055" OAL. PP is good too but I use it less often.

[PNW_Steve]

Steve, if you've got some Alliant Power Pistol available you might give that a try. It has been my 'go to' powder for several years for both 9mm and .40. Some folks complain about the muzzle flash you get with Power Pistol but I always like a little excitement when I shoot my guns. The flash is not noticeable (to me) in daylight.

Red Dot is a great powder for 9mm. It has less recoil than Power Pistol but does not meter as well through my Dillon powder measure. 4 grains of Red Dot chrongraphs around 1050 fps out of my Glock 19 (virtually the same velocity as my Power Pistol loads) and ought to be stout enough to function in your AR. But if factory FMJ ammo runs fine, you might looks at your buffer/spring combination. Some folks run heavier springs to try and reduce the recoil impulse and that can affect extraction/ejection with lighter loads. FYI I'm running a stock carbine spring with a KAK 10 oz buffer. I have not run my cast loads through my 9mm AR yet as I'm still fine-tuning my loading process but I'll be really surprised if it doesn't function with my Power Pistol loads.

Lastly, the key to getting 9mm cast loads to shoot well for me was the amount of crimp. I don't have a Lee FCD and some folks swear by them but if that's all you have then go with it. Crimp only enough so the diameter of the case mouth equals the size of the boolit plus the thickness of the case walls. My boolits measure .357". The case walls at the mouth measure .011". .357" plus .022" equals .379". I was previously crimping to .375" and my accuracy was all over the place. Just .004" made a huge difference in my accuracy results.

There is one more element to loading 9mm cast boolits and that is using a larger expander funnel. I had one made by one of the forum members here that expands the case mouth a bit deeper and wider than the factory expanders. My boolits will drop about half-way into the case before I seat them. With the factory expander it would barely sit on the belled case mouth and when it was seated to proper depth, was being swaged down enough to affect accuracy.

Hang in there, you'll get it figured out.

Thank you.

I don't have Alliant readily available. Things are a little thin here.

Good news on the Red Dot. I will stick with it. It cycles my AR fine. It is just different from the factory ammo. As best I can describe it is the factory ammo had recoil that was a sharp smack and the bolt cycles rather violently. The Red Dot loads give a long push and the bolt gives kerchunk.

I will take a closer look at my crimp and follow your suggestion. Measuring the case wall thickness is going to be a challenge. My micrometer won't fit so I will give my calipers a shot.

I had the trouble you described with bullets barely sitting in the case. My expander is part of my powder die. I adjusted it down a turn or two and now the bullets sit nicely about 1/4 of the way. Should I do more? The expanding cone you mentioned or an NOE expander?

Backing up a bit: Any thoughts on the two cases that found their way into the lower receiver?

Thanks again.

[PNW_Steve]

Great idea for a starting point tazman !
I have used red dot a lot in 9mm it's a versatile powder for handgun loads it's biggest complaint is metering , but I have found on the LCT with the pro auto disk it meters great.

Thank you.

I think that I will stick with the Red Dot for now. I am not having any trouble with it metering through my Lee powder measure. (not the auto disk. )

Are you loading Red Dot? If so, what are you loading?

[tazman]

Backing up a bit: Any thoughts on the two cases that found their way into the lower receiver?

Thanks again.

Normally, I would think the powder charge needs to be increased a bit. Sometimes a soft shooting load doesn't really kick the casings out as well as it might. Also, if the powder charge is not measuring consistently, you might be ending up with some abnormally light loads causing the brass to not eject forcefully enough to clear the gun.

[onelight]

Another powder that works great in 9mm is alliant be-86 I started using it in the last powder shortage because my supplier had it when the more popular powders were out . It meters well in all my measures and is excellent for most things you would use Unique for , red dot is one of my favorite powders but is more like bulls eye in use.

[PNW_Steve]

Normally, I would think the powder charge needs to be increased a bit. Sometimes a soft shooting load doesn't really kick the casings out as well as it might. Also, if the powder charge is not measuring consistently, you might be ending up with some abnormally light loads causing the brass to not eject forcefully enough to clear the gun.

That fits with the reduced recoil that I am getting.

Max load is 4.4gr of Red Dot. I am at 4.0gr. I'll split the difference and try 4.2gr.

[mvintx]

Steve, I'm gonna try 3.8 and 4.0 Red Dot in my 9mm AR today...I'll let you know how it goes. I'm still pondering you finding fired empties in the lower receiver. You got a Colt or Glock based lower?

[PNW_Steve]

Steve, I'm gonna try 3.8 and 4.0 Red Dot in my 9mm AR today...I'll let you know how it goes. I'm still pondering you finding fired empties in the lower receiver. You got a Colt or Glock based lower?

Glock. Mine is the PSA's PA-9.

Today's project is trying to get the optics squared away. I have a Taco ProPoint on it that I can't get zeroed. I need to figure out how to shim it over a bit. I got it barely on the (large) paper and was adjusting and shooting. As I approached the Right adjustment limit I got closer and closer to zero. Then, suddenly, I was not on the paper again. I went through this process twice and decided that I need to find a way to shim the front of the sight to the right a bit.

Now I just have to figure out how :)

[Burnt Fingers]

Glock. Mine is the PSA's PA-9.

Today's project is trying to get the optics squared away. I have a Taco ProPoint on it that I can't get zeroed. I need to figure out how to shim it over a bit. I got it barely on the (large) paper and was adjusting and shooting. As I approached the Right adjustment limit I got closer and closer to zero. Then, suddenly, I was not on the paper again. I went through this process twice and decided that I need to find a way to shim the front of the sight to the right a bit.

Now I just have to figure out how :)

Do you have that optic on a riser? If so turn the riser 180°.

[PNW_Steve]

Do you have that optic on a riser? If so turn the riser 180°.

No riser. Though I may add one. The red dot is taller than my others and I didn't think that I needed one but it is still a bit low.

I am thinking that if I place a shim on the fixed side of the mount it should move the mount in that direction. If I shim the left rear it should move my point of aim to the right.

Good idea or not?

[mvintx]

I'd give Tasco a call and see what they have to say. They might just send you a new one...it's worth a try. I've never had a red dot that ran out of adjustment before getting it zeroed.

My AR9 is a PSA Glock lower also. I built my 8" upper from parts as funds allowed so it's kind of a Franken-gun, but it shoots lights out. I'm gonna send you a PM about your finding spent cases in the lower receiver.

I had a chance to shoot it today with my cast boolits and it did pretty well. 3.8 and 4.0 grains of Red Dot and I wouldn't call either of the loads 'gentle'. 3.8 grains chrono'd 1196 fps and grouped just over 1 inch. 4.0 grains did 1230 fps and printed well under an inch.

The same loads printed 2.75" and 2.0" respectively out of my 4" Polymer80/Glock 19. This was all done at 12 yds because my eyesight isn't what it used to be. I've got to wear my highpower glasses in order to see the front sight clearly but that makes the target pretty blurry at 25 yards. The AR9 has a red dot sight and it's much easier to shoot accurately and in addition to the 8" barrel, it's a more accurate setup. My next session I'll try 25 yds with the pistol but I don't hold much hope for it.

Today's boolits were my first PC attempt with HF red. Recovered boolits showed some missing PC on the driving bands but the barrels in both guns were spotless. I've since switched to Smoke's powder and I'll try that next to see if the same Red Dot loads shoot any better and retain more of the coating after being fired.

Oh yeah, one more thing. I wouldn't worry about measuring the brass thickness at the mouth. All of my mixed stuff (FC, WIN, Starline, RP, WCC) all measure between .010" and .011". You can just use .022" and be done with it.

PM is next.

[PNW_Steve]

I went out yesterday and gave it another shot.

I shimmed the mount using two layers of aluminum can and I loaded up some 120gr TC with 4.2gr Red Dot.

The shims moved the POA as expected and I was close to zero. Just a tweak here and there and..... Off the paper again. There is something wrong with it. I am going to call Tesco.

While I had it on the paper, I cut, mostly, ragged holes with the 4.0gr Red Dot. The 4.2 was not quite as tight. The 4.2gr load is still milder to shoot than the factory ammo. It does cycle the bolt with a little more authority than the 4.0gr.

I had hoped that the increased load would affect the FTE issues. No joy. Three jams. The first dropped out when I removed the rear take-down pin and opened up the receiver. The second one jammed in a way that I could not open the receiver. I managed to clear it by holding the charge handle fully to the rear, holding the rifle upside down and shaking.

The third one has jammed the bolt. I cannot move the bolt with the charge handle nor can I separate upper and lower receiver. This one could turn into a trip to the gunsmith.

I also noticed that the Red Dot is fairly dirty.

[mvintx]

PM sent