What's the "right" way to load BP cartridges?

[am44mag]

I have dabbled with black powder in cartridges before, but I'm pretty ignorant overall on the subject. Well, to make a long story short, I lucked into a 50-70 Trapdoor, so I plan on shooting a lot more BP cartridges in the future. My question is, what is the right way to load them?

I know that you are supposed to load by volume, that you are supposed to use a drop tube, and then you are supposed to have a bit of compression when you load your boolit. That's about it. Do I need a wad and if so, does it matter if it's veg fiber or cardboard? Does the thickness matter? How about grease cookies? Are they needed? Do they melt and contaminate the powder on a hot day? Do I need to sandwich them between two wads, or do I just need one under it? What style of lube works best for that? Hard, or soft? Is there anything else that I need to know?

[jednorris]

The way I do it is first figure out your O.A.Cartridge length with the bullet seated out to barely touch the lands and grooves. Find out how many grains of Black Powder it takes to fill the case to the base of the bullet when the Powder is compressed 1/8". Put in a wad ( 030" or 60" ) and seat your bullet. That is a good starting point.

[Dapaki]

I suggest you read the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (I have the 3rd edition) and use the information contained within. If you ask a crowd of thousands like the one here, you will get many, many responses, most good, some bad, others that are neither but may not give you the results you are looking for.

[Lead pot]

Aaron,

What is your intend shooting the 50 roller?
The .50-70 is a very good round and shoots very well. It is a little handicapped at extended ranges but the accuracy is very good within its capability.
What are you wanting to use? Grease grooved or paper patched?
If you are starting with a GG lube it with a good lube SPG is as good lube for black if you don't want to make your own lube. You can run that bullet through a lube sizer or dip the bullet in melted lube of pan lube them sitting them in a bread pan and pour the lube to cover the grooves. let the mix cool and push the bullets out with your thumb.
GG place a card wad at least .025" to .060" anything inbetween over the powder and seat the bullet on the wads. You can use the wad to put a little to no compression on the powder but keep the bullet on the wad and the wad on the powder. Don't leave a air gap between the wad and the bullet.
A lube wad is mostly used with a PP bullet but again it's not needed if you wipe the bore between shots fired.
A lube wad will work with between 1/8" and 3/16". I put a wad cut from a milk carton or OJ carton that is around .023" or so over the powder and that is good enough to keep the lube from migrating to the powder when it get hot and another under the bullet. Again keep everything on the powder.
For accuracy you can change the compression by 1-2 grains per 3-5 rounds fired to see what the results are on the paper or iron plates.
Keep it simple there is not just one way to load a black powder round. Start with .050" compression to start and you will see the best show up before you get to .300".

[Don McDowell]

You don't need to drop tube. A powder funnel with a 4 inch tube and a slow pour will suffice, or even just a regular funnel with the measured powder charge held a couple of inches above the funnel and slow poured also works. Your best accuracy will likely be thru weighing each charge. .030 or .060 fiber wad work well. Grease cookies aren't needed if your bullet is a good design and is lubed with a good lube,if you shoot a paper patch bullet a grease cookie surely won't hurt anything. Compressing the charge can be accomplished with the expander die, if using a good set of dies from Lyman, RCBS or Redding. You can also just purchase a dedicated compression die.
If that rifle is an original trapdoor you may want to do a chamber cast of just enough of the throat you can get a good measurement on the bore/groove diameter, you may also consider slugging the barrel. Some of those original rifles can have some awfully generous bore/groove diameters.

[trails4u]

:popcorn:

This is gonna get interesting. Not trying to be an ***...but you'll get as many answers as folks here who have experience. Most of them will be good answers!! Amazing knowledge here!!

[am44mag]

My intent is mainly target shooting within a couple hundred yards, and maybe a bit of hunting. I'll be using the Lee 515 450gr bullet unless the barrel needs something larger. I'll do a chamber cast and slug the bore before I order my stuff. I'll order some SPG to pan lube with, and forgo the grease cookie for now. I'll be using Lyman dies, so it's nice to know that I won't have to deal with a drop tube.

Thanks fellas for the advise. I can't wait to put it to good use. :)

[wills]

Read This

https://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

[Don McDowell]

You will likely find 1 1/2 or 1f powder to be a good choice in that rifle.

[Winger Ed.]

I load a few .45-70s with BP.
I don't have a drop tube, but holding a regular powder funnel & the case in one hand, and thumping the case will make it settle in.

I'm only good for about 20 before I have to change thumping fingers though.

[country gent]

Compression is affected by powder type and wad bullet and case. You need to experiment with it some. Compress with a die not the bullet. Wads again can be many materials from card board to LDPE. I use alot of Napa rubber fiber gasket material in .060 thickness. Also tracing paper wads also. Bullets can be cast softer than smokeless. 20-1 is a good place to start. A slow poor thru a funnel works well.

Several things different in loading these are cases need to be kept soft ( annealed), neck tension is lighter, most only neck size.

Heres the way I load BPCR ammo:

I deburr flash holes and uniform primer pockets in new brass and anneal
trim to length if needed
prime cases by hand
bell / expand case mouths if needed
drop powder charges I do weigh charges and use a drop tube. Old habits die hard.
seat a napa rubber fiber wad and compress charge to depth.
add 2 tracing paper wads seated down.
Hand seat bullet on to wads.
Size case mouth down just enough to hold. A sizing die set around .400 high is close.

For compression a dummy bullet made from hard wood, metal or hard plastic.can be made.
Make it .010-.015 smaller in dia as close to profile as possible. This can be used in the seating die to crimp If you get it right the die dosnt need to be reset. One quick way might be to cast a bullet from zinc and polish its dia down to where it fits in a case easily. I would not try zinc in an aluminum mould though. For wads a hole punch from general or osg can be made to work by opening it up to size. I rap a dowel with sand paper and work them to size, be careful they get really sharp doing this.

[Lead pot]

Before buying a mould I would check what the twist is. You will need a rod with a free spinning handle and a tight patch and put a line on the rod the full length and at the muzzle. Push the rod through till it makes a full revolution and put a second mark at the muzzle.
If it comes close to 32" the bullets you have listed should be fine. I shoot a 1/22 twist Shiloh and the accuracy I want takes a bullet 1.5" long. That roller if it's an original should have a fairly slow twist so the lighter shorter bullets will be fine.
My 22 twist a 1.4" long is only good for short range.
It's length, not weight you want to match to your rate of twist. The little .50 is one heck of a fine and fun caliber. I wish I had one again.
If it's an original check the bore like Don said, some might be as big as a .52. My roller was a little over .51.

Kurt

[sharps4590]

Or just buy the book, "The SPG Black Powder Cartridge Loading Manual" or, one of Paul Matthews excellent books. Try them both and figure out which one or combination of methods works best for you. I think whatever you do you're going to end up experimenting with it a little, depending on your accuracy requirements.

[varsity07840]

The twist on a .50-70 trapdoor is 1 in 42. Groove to groove size is usually .515. It is on mine. The Lee .515 is an excellent choice. I load mine per the military round with the bullet seated so the case mouth covers the top grease groove. I use 70 gr, 1 1/2 FG Swiss and 2 .030 wads or a single .062.

[indian joe]

:popcorn:

This is gonna get interesting. Not trying to be an ***...but you'll get as many answers as folks here who have experience. Most of them will be good answers!! Amazing knowledge here!!

Thats a good answer - you can make this as simple or as complicated as you feel inclined
Simple says ----
reprime the fired case,
pour in enough powder (appropriate grain size for calibre) to give a little compression
insert a boolit and seat it on the powder
go shoot.

An overpowder wad helps improve accuracy most times but not always - can use just about anything that is not abrasive and wont burn up or melt in the barrel.

Once you have simple figured out, go shoot, and play with all the different complicated ideas - if the bore is decent you probably gonna be surprised how well you will do - all the complex ideas are here in a host of posts - its a learn by doing thing - time on the range and time at the loading bench - both of which should be an enjoyable experience.

[Washington1331]

I love my 50-70 Springfield, I wish you the best of luck with it. Do you happen to know what model year? If you're shooting a first Allyn Conversion, I'd recommend checking the screws and solder that hold the breech block assembly onto the barrel to make sure that there is no shenanigan's going on. As you probably know the first model Allyn Conversions were muzzle loading rifles that they milled the rear of the barrel and installed the trapdoor block.

While black powder can be measured by volume, this mostly comes from modern black powder substitutes which state that they are the equivelant by volume of a set amount of black powder. Spenser Wolf in his book on the 45-70 stated that the federal arsenals used weight of charge not volume when measuring their loads. It just happens that for speed of assembly they used a volumetric hopper that corresponded to the desired charge weight.

The Lee 450 grain is a good bullet. I've had great luck with it in my trapdoor, and Remington rolling block. If you're going to buy commercial or cast your own you want to cast soft and avoid antinomy like the plague. I've never had good luck in my trapdoors with any alloy with antinomy in it. In fact Spencer Wolf expressly mentions this in the book. You want to shoot for a 20:1 or 16:1 mix of lead to tin and a BHN of around 10. I've managed to get away with using pure lead with just enough tin to fill out my mold. I've found that with the old warhorses it is best to keep the mix soft for best results. I once tried a harder cast boolit and lets just say that the results accuracy wise were far from optimal.

The Lee 450 boolit carries a good amount of lubrication. If you decide to use SPG, its a great product. Personally I make my own using unsalted pig lard, Crisco, bee's wax, olive oil and a hint of lanolin. IMHO, I've found that the softer lubes tend to work better in keeping fouling soft, but as you stated this can cause powder contamination. Harder lubes tend to hold up better in hotter environments, but need more to keep fouling soft.

My pet load is 70 grains of 1F Goex black powder, magnum rifle primer, waxpaper wad, 1/8" lube cookie, .060 fiber wad. I compress the load using the expander die to the point where the top shoulder of the boolit sits even with the brass. I don't size the boolits, just pan lube them with homemade lube. I've crono'd this load at about 1250 fps on a consistent basis. I've gotten about 3 inch groups at 100 yards. This is mainly due to my eyesight (lots of computer work).

Is the lube cookie necessary? Not really for hunting purposes, I've found in my range testing that I normally foul out at around 10 rounds if I don't use it.

My last point: Invest in a universal decapping die. I've greatly expanded the life of my brass and increased my accuracy by simply knocking out the old primer with the universal decapper and then finger seating the bullet after I've compressed the powder charge using the expander die. I completely unscrew the stem from the seating die and just screw the seating die into my press to the point where it puts a gentile crimp on the bullet. When you're dealing with soft lead bullets, you don't want to deform the bullet in the seating process. This helped me get most of my groups out of a warm, slightly fouled barrel down to under 3 inches at 100 yards using the original sights. YMMV.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions. Best of luck to you with your old warhorse.

[indian joe]

I love my 50-70 Springfield, I wish you the best of luck with it. Do you happen to know what model year? If you're shooting a first Allyn Conversion, I'd recommend checking the screws and solder that hold the breech block assembly onto the barrel to make sure that there is no shenanigan's going on. As you probably know the first model Allyn Conversions were muzzle loading rifles that they milled the rear of the barrel and installed the trapdoor block.

While black powder can be measured by volume, this mostly comes from modern black powder substitutes which state that they are the equivelant by volume of a set amount of black powder. Spenser Wolf in his book on the 45-70 stated that the federal arsenals used weight of charge not volume when measuring their loads. It just happens that for speed of assembly they used a volumetric hopper that corresponded to the desired charge weight.

The Lee 450 grain is a good bullet. I've had great luck with it in my trapdoor, and Remington rolling block. If you're going to buy commercial or cast your own you want to cast soft and avoid antinomy like the plague. I've never had good luck in my trapdoors with any alloy with antinomy in it. In fact Spencer Wolf expressly mentions this in the book. You want to shoot for a 20:1 or 16:1 mix of lead to tin and a BHN of around 10. I've managed to get away with using pure lead with just enough tin to fill out my mold. I've found that with the old warhorses it is best to keep the mix soft for best results. I once tried a harder cast boolit and lets just say that the results accuracy wise were far from optimal.

The Lee 450 boolit carries a good amount of lubrication. If you decide to use SPG, its a great product. Personally I make my own using unsalted pig lard, Crisco, bee's wax, olive oil and a hint of lanolin. IMHO, I've found that the softer lubes tend to work better in keeping fouling soft, but as you stated this can cause powder contamination. Harder lubes tend to hold up better in hotter environments, but need more to keep fouling soft.

My pet load is 70 grains of 1F Goex black powder, magnum rifle primer, waxpaper wad, 1/8" lube cookie, .060 fiber wad. I compress the load using the expander die to the point where the top shoulder of the boolit sits even with the brass. I don't size the boolits, just pan lube them with homemade lube. I've crono'd this load at about 1250 fps on a consistent basis. I've gotten about 3 inch groups at 100 yards. This is mainly due to my eyesight (lots of computer work).

Is the lube cookie necessary? Not really for hunting purposes, I've found in my range testing that I normally foul out at around 10 rounds if I don't use it.

My last point: Invest in a universal decapping die. I've greatly expanded the life of my brass and increased my accuracy by simply knocking out the old primer with the universal decapper and then finger seating the bullet after I've compressed the powder charge using the expander die. I completely unscrew the stem from the seating die and just screw the seating die into my press to the point where it puts a gentile crimp on the bullet. When you're dealing with soft lead bullets, you don't want to deform the bullet in the seating process. This helped me get most of my groups out of a warm, slightly fouled barrel down to under 3 inches at 100 yards using the original sights. YMMV.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions. Best of luck to you with your old warhorse.

Heres another vote for the universal decapping die!!!! we use it on everything from 25/20 to 45/75 ..................100% good

[Toymaker]

And yet Dick Trenk preferred to weigh his powder charges.
A weight of a powder is not the same as a volume of the same powder.
Measuring by volume is faster, can be done in the field, and is reasonably consistent and accurate.

http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

[am44mag]

The gun is a model 1868, which I believe is the third Allen conversion. It's got a receiver instead of just a modified barrel, and the barrel is solid, not sleeved like on second conversions.

I figured the 450gr LEE would be a good mold since I believe that's the original weight they used for the 50-70. I'm happy to hear others have had good results with it.

Track of the Wolf sells a copy of "The SPG Black Powder Cartridge Loading Manual", so I'll probably tack that onto my order. I'll also see about picking up some 1F and 1.5F powder from Grafs. All I have on hand is 2F. I'll definitely pick up a universal decapping die too. 50-70 brass is $1 a piece, so I'd prefer to make it last as long as possible. I might order an extra piece or two of 50-70 brass to make a punch so that I can give grease cookies a try too.

Thanks fellas. I really appreciate all the advice. I'm still waiting on the gun to get here, and it might be awhile until all the stuff to reload for it gets here (Grafs is estimating a 10 day wait to ship), but at least I have a good idea as to what I need to do now. I'm sure I will be back with questions as soon as get going, lol. My interest in guns seems to have started drifting back towards black powder era guns, so I doubt this will be the last one I pick up. I feel like this is going to be something I really enjoy doing.

[am44mag]

I got everything ordered. Some of it has shipped, some of it might not ship until the end of next week due to the amount of sales they're having to deal with. I got about 20lb of pure lead and a pound of tin in, so I've already made a 20-1 mix. I also got the decapping die in. The molds and powder haven't shipped yet, but my Track of the Wolf order with the wads, brass, lube, and the book have. I'm getting excited. :D

BTW, how do you guys deal with dirty BP brass? Just soap and water? Do you have to get it really clean (scrub the inside with a pipe cleaner), or do you just soak it for a while and rinse it off?

[country gent]

Between strings I decap the cases and drop them in a jug with dawn dish soap a little lemon shine and water. Every couple strings I give the jug a shake. A laundry jug with the spout pulled out has a nice big opening to use for this. When I get home i [pur the jug out in the yard come in and rinse in the jug and cases 2-3 times with hot tap water. Spread them out on a screen to dry. When dry I polish in a vibrator with corn cobs nu finish Iosso brass polish and some alcohol. When polished nice. I clean primer pockets and use a nylon brush to clean inside of cases, this is more to remove con cob residue. Then anneal if needed or due for. I normally anneal very other loading.

I do the water jug to soften the residue and keep it soft. when you get home shake the jug a few minutes and pour out. the water will be black. ( a second cap can heve holes drilled in it to make a strainer) The first rinse and shake will be a gray color with subsequent lighter in color.

I use 20-1 alloy most but 20 lb wont make many of the big bullets ( youll get around 13 to the pound)

Which book did you order??

[am44mag]

Between strings I decap the cases and drop them in a jug with dawn dish soap a little lemon shine and water. Every couple strings I give the jug a shake. A laundry jug with the spout pulled out has a nice big opening to use for this. When I get home i [pur the jug out in the yard come in and rinse in the jug and cases 2-3 times with hot tap water. Spread them out on a screen to dry. When dry I polish in a vibrator with corn cobs nu finish Iosso brass polish and some alcohol. When polished nice. I clean primer pockets and use a nylon brush to clean inside of cases, this is more to remove con cob residue. Then anneal if needed or due for. I normally anneal very other loading.

I do the water jug to soften the residue and keep it soft. when you get home shake the jug a few minutes and pour out. the water will be black. ( a second cap can heve holes drilled in it to make a strainer) The first rinse and shake will be a gray color with subsequent lighter in color.

I use 20-1 alloy most but 20 lb wont make many of the big bullets ( youll get around 13 to the pound)

Which book did you order??

I think we just emptied out a detergent bottle that would be the prefect size for 50-70 cases. I'll go see if I can save it from the trash, lol. Thanks for the advise on cleaning brass.

If my math is right, and I manage to use all of it, I have enough to make about 325 or so boolits. It's not a lot, but it'll get me started. I plan on ordering a lot of lead and tin within the next month.

The book I ordered was "The SPG Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer" by Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe . I've also been reading over that guide Wills posted earlier in the thread.

[Bent Ramrod]

For cleaning cases, you can get by with a dishpan, dish detergent and a test tube brush for a while, but if you are planning to jump into this BPCR thing with both feet, a Thumler’s Tumbler and those ceramic chips and solution that Dave Maurer sells is a huge labor saver, and the cases come out like new.

Also, you might snag a copy of Mike Venturino’s Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. This is an overview of about every single-loading BPCR design you are likely to encounter, plus general loading directions for all the major cartridges, plus instructions by actual BPCR champions on all the various “correct” methods of cartridge loading that they have found to work. And, just as importantly, the stuff that doesn’t seem to matter much. Even if you don’t plan to get into it major league, the book is interesting reading in its own right.

[Lead pot]

I just de primed a coffee can full of .38 SPL cases and I do the same with my black powder cases. I put them in the Frankfort Arsenal tumbler with SST pins and Cascade dish washer soap. One of those that come in a jell covered mix. I have found nothing that gets them as clean as what this combination does. My Wife got me on this Cascade Dishwasher stuff when I asked her if she has more Dawn when I ran out and she said this has Dawn in it. :)
I have used commercial brass cleaners, Dawn and Lemishine and wore out two Tumbler Tumblers over the years but this combination I mentioned has served me well since the Frankfort Arsenal tumbler came on the market.
I just drop one of these in the tumbler and fill it with water about 3/4 full it gets the brass looking like new.

I leave the water in the bucket till it's about 1/2 full and let the mud settle till it's clean and reuse it with out adding anything but dirty brass to be cleaned again.
This brass was cleaned using the same recycled mix after it settled back down.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Cascade-Compl.../158938412
When the tumbler quits I dump it in a classifier with a I think 75 mesh screen sitting in a 5 gallon bucket and let it drain out.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FQPHUNO/ref...th=1&psc=1
This holds the pins and I use one of these black sand magnets to separate the pins from the cases. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Big-Orange-Ma...4d0f2c9835

260672260673

[John Boy]

All powders have different weight densities. And any volume measurement of black powder can be charged with a weight gram equivalent of the volume charge. Saying it can’t be done is an Urban Legend
https://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_volumetric.htm

[indian joe]

All powders have different weight densities. And any volume measurement of black powder can be charged with a weight gram equivalent of the volume charge. Saying it can’t be done is an Urban Legend
https://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_volumetric.htm

What an absolute load of common sense - I am amazed in the year 2020 the level of resistance to this .

[northmn]

I think it was Paul Matthews that loaded the substitutes by weight. He would weigh 5 volume equivalent measures of Pyrodex or 777 and get an average and then use that for weight. 58 gr of Pyrodex might be equal to 70 grains of 2f GOEX for example. Weighing charges for him gave more consistent compression.

DEP

[am44mag]

I figured I'd post an update. I finally got my hands on the rifle last week and was able to shoot it some on Monday. I believe I am thoroughly hooked. There's just something about a black powder single shot rifle that seems right. :p

I slugged the barrel, and it came in at 0.514". The LEE mold I'm using casts a bit over sized, but the small amount of ammo I made up chambered and shot just fine. Oddly enough, it's shooting pretty close to point of aim. I figured it was going to shoot a couple of feet high, but at 75 yards, it's shooting about 4-5" high. I'll get some more trigger time with the rifle and load up some more rounds and see what kind of accuracy I can squeeze out of it.

Thanks again fellas, you guys have been a huge help.

[am44mag]

Oh, I was going to ask. What is the easiest way to clean a rifle like this? I poured a pitcher of hot soapy water down the bore and then went at it with dry and lubed (CLP) patches. I probably went through 50 of them before I was satisfied. Surely there's an easier/faster way to clean.

[Don McDowell]

Blow 3 or 4 breaths down the muzzle and up the breech, push the fouling out with a dry patch. Wet a patch with water, push it thru, do another, and follow with a dry. Couple of patches with a good bore solvent to clear out any carbon fouling , and if you don't see any sign of lead, your done.

[Lead pot]

Since your shooting a TD you are most likely doing it from the muzzle down.
Turn the rifle down, trap door down to keep the water from dropping down into the lower parts.
You can use a muzzle guide to keep the cleaning rod off the crown and push a damp patch through till it comes out almost clan, 4-5 is not unusual. A .308 case cut off mid section makes a good muzzle protector.
When the damp patches are just about clean push dry patches through. It's best to use 100% cotton flannel because it absorbs the moisture better.
If the white patch still has some gray streaks on it you have some lead that needs to be cleaned out.
To get the lead out soak a patch with Kroil or a good penetrating oil. When I run out of Kroil I use Liquid Wrench it also works very well.
Run the first patch through wet with the Kroil and let it soak for a few minutes then run a damp through through. it should be a snug fit. Fold a corner of the patch over so it's like a double patch if it's not snug. You will see the lead on the first patch. Keep it up till a dry patch comes out as white as it went in.
Then give the bore a good coat of oil and you're done.
Kurt

[sharps4590]

As you ordered the SPG manual, load like Mike and Steve recommend and you should have good results right out of the gate.

Cleaning, hot water is your friend.

Don't overthink or overcomplicate either shooting or cleaning....it's supposed to be fun.

[beltfed]

Here is my available setup for wiping TDs and Martinis from the breach:
Combination of my 5/16 Delrin rod threaded female std 8-32 both ends,
with rod guide, and my Flex Jag adaptor to facilitate turning the corner in the receiver and entering the bore
beltfed/arnie
262116262117

[Dave T]

As you ordered the SPG manual, load like Mike and Steve recommend and you should have good results right out of the gate.

Cleaning, hot water is your friend.

Don't overthink or overcomplicate either shooting or cleaning....it's supposed to be fun.

Since this forum doesn't do "Likes" I re-posted Sharps4590's comment above. He has struck the nail upon the flat part. (smile)

PS: Ya don't even need boiling hot water. Just be sure to get all the moisture out when you're done.

Dave

[Carrier]

Beltfed that’s a slick setup. Where did you get what you are using? I’m going to get me one of those. As far as cleaning I just use Balistol for my blackpowder guns and has worked very well.

[am44mag]

I'd definitely like to keep it as simple as possible. Next time I shoot, I'll give some of your suggestions a try and see if I have better luck. Thanks again fellas. :)

[country gent]

I use windex with vinegar at the range. a couple sprays in the barrel let set while I deprime cases. first patch comes out black with mud ahead of it. second patch dampened comes out dirty, 1st dry patch is grey and streaks on the last. I do a rough or pre clean at the range before leaving then Balistol water 10 parts water to 1 part ballistol when I get home. Light oil in bore and wipe on outside

[beltfed]

Carrier,
I make and sell them myself.
PM me for info
beltfed/arnie