PH Volunteer.....nipple disaster.

[nagantino]

Ok, here’s what happened. I bought a PH Volunteer .451. It’s a real joy to shoot and so much fun. I don’t collect or own any other ML. When the lockdown began I started all those little jobs in my workshop. I had noticed that the hammer was blowing back on the hammer on my last 2 visits to the range. A spare nipple came with the gun so I decided to change it. A nipple key also came with the gun so I tried it. No dice. The nipple seems to made of a brass like material. I sprayed penetrating oil onto the nipple and down the barrel. I left it for days and repeated. No movement. I have tried every tool but the nipple has not shifted. I was left with no option but to drill it out. It’s well drilled out now, but the internal threads are not visible yet. I am waiting on a 5/16 - 18 tap. I hope to gradually tap down and try to reveal the threads and save the gun. The second photo show the ring of nipple material left to remove
That’s the short version. Thoughts?

[mazo kid]

Try an Easy-out? Why was the nipple key "no dice".

[Nobade]

EZ out or straight flute remover. You're close to the threads now so take care not to touch them with the tool.

[country gent]

With the brass in there getting the right start on the tap will be hard if the tap cant get into the existing threads to start it may cut over them wiping them out. Your at a rough point. Drill start stepping up a lot more between sizes here ( By memory a 5/16 24 thread is a f drill or .257 dia.) I would get close to this and ream by hand with the drill. Go to where you can see threads thru the brass. Then with a fine awl ice pick or scribe peel out the brass as far down as possible getting the start for the tap. A dremil tool used carefully with a fine burr can also be used to slowly and carefully remove brass to the point it can be peeled out. Check by the manufacturer it might be a metric thread also. 5/16 and 8mm are very close in dia but slightly different pitch

[nagantino]

Mayo, I used the key that came with the gun. I don’t shoot ML but even I knew that the key was a little loose. This is where the rounding of the nipple began.
Nobade, I thought the Easeout would do the job but nothing would turn. I was afraid it would snap off making it worse. I have the tools like dremel and various little cutting heads. I have a great set of dental tools also to try and pick out the material. I’m calling it brass but I think it’s tougher than that.
Today I began to think that it might be connected to the bolster screw but most tell you not to touch it.

[Gtek]

Bravo on the perceived centering of the drill, that's usually the first missed target. Just me, but I would be REAL LEARY about sticking any type of easy out in there. As thin as you are I would be very afraid of distorting existing threads with a tapered hard edged pushing OUT to bite anything. If it were mine, rifle stripped and that area heat cycled and then soaked (Kroil, ATF/Acetone, etc.) repeatedly for days until I confirmed original thread pitch in breech. I like the idea of removing internal material but as if you are doing brain surgery, under magnification and stop when first sign of iron thread pops through. Maybe even an 1/8" round or smaller file and ease out to the steel. Then nice sharp hard pick and start pecking at top. Worst case can probably Heli-coil to whatever if it goes ugly on backside.

[indian joe]

Mayo, I used the key that came with the gun. I don’t shoot ML but even I knew that the key was a little loose. This is where the rounding of the nipple began.
Nobade, I thought the Easeout would do the job but nothing would turn. I was afraid it would snap off making it worse. I have the tools like dremel and various little cutting heads. I have a great set of dental tools also to try and pick out the material. I’m calling it brass but I think it’s tougher than that.
Today I began to think that it might be connected to the bolster screw but most tell you not to touch it.

If you can get the bolster screw out without wrecking it I would do that - a lot of modern replicas are made with interference between the cleanout (bolster) screw and the nipple threads - that may have been where your trouble started . When you get this all done make sure you use antiseize on the threads. NO to the easy out you have gone past that point theres not enough metal left (easyouts are highly overrated anyhow). You are being careful thats the main thing required at this point. Worst case there is enough meat in that gun to drill it out, tap the hole, and put an insert in.

[Nobade]

Looking again at the pic, you guys are right. Unless it's loose already which sounds like that's not the case, I wouldn't use an easy out either. I'll second the rotary cutter and picks, but of course be careful.

[Boz330]

Try putting the gun in a freezer if you have one, sometimes that works better than the heat or try a combo of both. I broke a tap off in a brand new barrel several years back and tried the heat and Kroil with no luck. Saw and article on using cold and it worked like a charm.
That nipple is probably Beryllium, not brass. The PH is a real high pressure ML and they burn out nipples pretty quick, probably 200 rounds max with that nipple. A Platinum lined nipple would be your best bet, but they are not cheap. As someone mentioned use anti seize or teflon tape and remove it after each session and clean it.


Bob

[nagantino]

I will remove it after each session now. I hope this might give some direction to everyone else when buying a second hand Percussion rifle. Show me the nipple off please.

[elk hunter]

Did you measure the diameter and pitch of the threads of the spare nipple? If it is the correct replacement that will establish the correct tap needed. Guessing about the correct size may make the problem worse.

[Bent Ramrod]

The “brass” nipple was likely an Ampco or Treso nipple, of beryllium copper, as BOZ330 mentioned.

I have a Volunteer, which is on its first Ampco nipple and I have a Buffalo Arms platinum-lined nipple ($65) waiting in the wings.

I sympathize with your plight. On mine, it was the cleanout screw that was frozen and the slot mangled. Haven’t had the nerve to try any “extreme measures” on that; instead, I bought one of those little steam cleaners from Amazon and run a tube and adaptor into the nipple seat. What comes out of that barrel after a “thorough cleaning” with Ballistol/water, patches and a .38 cal mop (for the patent breech part) is always amazing.

Maybe something like Hoppes #9 or Sweets 7.62 would dissolve enough of the copper to loosen the threads so they could be picked out with a scribe. The Sweets can’t be left on steel indefinitely, but repeated 15 minute applications and wiping off eventually turns all copper into blue-green glop.

Dromia used to be the subject-matter expert on Volunteer and Whitworth muzzle-loaders. I wish he’d chime in here, but he hasn’t posted in years now.

[Plastikosmd]

I would begin to roll that Brass nipple down with a fine punch/cold chisel or pick as needed to expose the first layer of threads. From there should be pretty straightforward.

[Tatume]

When you get it repaired, use a good quality, high temperature anti-seize compound on the replacement nipple.

[Tatume]

When you're ready to purchase a new nipple (or 2), be aware that the Volunteer was made in England for Parker-Hale, and has 5/16 x 18 threads. The Italian Volunteers have 8-1.25 metric threads.

[Tatume]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?157047-Worn-out-nipple-Poll


All right a brand new Ampco nipple has a # 75 number drill size hole. In 100 yard testing when working with our cross stick guns years ago we found that by the time the nipple had eroded to a #50 hole it was throwing shots. By the time your hammer is coming back you are way too big. We didn't have high speed cameras but we reasoned that after getting close to a 50 hole the hammer was moving enough to case minor deviation in gas leakage. The groups willl open up with stringing. For hunting large game at close range you can get by with a slightly worn, say 57-50 hole but for absolute best target accuracy you want the same diameter hole that you sighted the rifle in with or under 60 drill size.

[Tatume]

Track of the Wolf has correct nipples.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/index.aspx

Look under Accessories on the left, and scroll down to Nipples (in alphabetical order).

[nagantino]

I got the old nipple out. The nipple must never have been removed in years. I have owned the gun for 1 year and I know the guy who sold it to me has not shot in years. It was in like a sonofagun. The key supplied was the beginning of the rounding off and from that it got worse. Vice grips, a vice, Eaz-out tools didn’t budge it so drilling out was the only solution. Nightmare. I drilled as close to the steel threads as I dared. I bought a set of 5/16 - 8 taps. I alternated between the two dies and dental picks. The last piece came out like toenail. When I fitted the new nipple to the hole and it fitted tight, it was like a lottery win.
I wrapped the new nipple threads in plumbers tape and greased it. Many thanks for the encouragement.

[jumbeaux]

I looked thru all of my deep sockets and found one with a nice tight fit. I use it, a short extension and a ratchet. Never had the issues I experienced with a nipple key...I also use anti seize now.

[Gtek]

Congratulations on the victory! Consider yourself properly hazed, you are now free to buy many more.

[indian joe]

Well done !!! patience is your best friend .............................

[725]

Well done! Find the correct open ended wrench and put one in your kit.

[william l evans]

I have seen a couple of those rifles that were modified by replacing the clean out screw with a screw in vent to help relieve the pressure.
if you do this, warn the guy to your right before firing.

[Nobade]

Glad to hear you got it. Those rifles are too nice to not use!

[nagantino]

I never want that experience again. I learnt this though: Do not try to fix a problem like this in one go. Read about it and do it slowly. The next day your mind sees where to go next, it’s not insurmountable providing you go slow.

[saddler]

...Dromia used to be the subject-matter expert on Volunteer and Whitworth muzzle-loaders. I wish he’d chime in here, but he hasn’t posted in years now.

I see that the OP has sorted the issue, if not I could have phoned the above to ask for ideas.
He's still around and actively shooting, etc., but not on here as you say

[fgd135]

I got the old nipple out. The nipple must never have been removed in years.
I wrapped the new nipple threads in plumbers tape and greased it. Many thanks for the encouragement.

Excellent work!

As far as shooting goes, I think you'll find that a regular steel or Ampco nipple will burn out in just as few as a couple of dozen shots, and will need to be replaced maybe as often as every shooting session. A platinum lined nipple will last thru hundreds if not thousands of shots.

[Bent Ramrod]

Saddler, if you do talk regularly with Dromia, I’d appreciate knowing what the size and threads are in the Parker-Hale Volunteer cleanout screw are, if he happens to know. (IIRC, he had four or five of the things.) I might get desperate enough to try to get it out by nagantino’s method, but if they are Whitworth threads, it might not be worth the trouble. The steam cleaner does the job.

I found the owner’s instruction sheet somewhere On Line and it says to take the barrel out of the stock for cleaning after every shooting session. Does anybody do this? The guy who sold it to me (used) warned me not to take the barrel out of the stock.

(Sorry for the thread diversion, but the subject of gunsmithing on Volunteers doesn’t come up very often.)

[nagantino]

I’ve seen video where the barrel is taken out for cleaning. I had to remove the barrel to get it into a vice. The barrel on this one was bedded in Water Pump Grease. Loads of it. I have regreased it and don’t intend to take the barrel out again. I have read that this will change the point of impact which I understand. I hope by not much because its a great rifle.

[fgd135]

... I’d appreciate knowing what the size and threads are in the Parker-Hale Volunteer cleanout screw are, I might get desperate enough to try to get it out by nagantino’s method, but if they are Whitworth threads, it might not be worth the trouble. The steam cleaner does the job.



Mr. Bill Curtis, an eminent expert on these rifles, advises not to remove the clean-out screw, ever. See his post (#8) in this thread from the British Militaria Forum:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/viewtopic.php?p=80124#p80124

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks for that link, fgd135! A lot of good Volunteer info there.

That screw isn’t coming out in any case, so it’s nice to be able to stop heartburning about it. Saves the possible problems involved with removing the barrel from the stock as well.

I did find early on that a .38 caliber mop is the thing for swabbing out the patent breech. Quite a constriction down there, as it turns out.