45-70 Gov't and Smokeless Powder

[dakotaduke]

I'm new here so forgive me if this is posted in the wrong place. Perhaps an administrator could square me away. Away, I purchased a 45-70 Sharps reproduction and decided to work up smokeless loads for the Lyman Postell #457132 535 grain bullet. I chose 5744 powder after experimenting with other powders and my chronograph. Several of my friends told me they would never use 5744 because it is "way too expensive." I wondered if that were true as I was getting superb accuracy from the rifle out to 875 yards. The chart that I hopefully attached shows the relative costs of five popular 45-70 powders and the costs of each. My research shows that 5744 is actually the cheapest powder to use and not the most expensive. I have used all five of the powders and have come to the conclusion that 5744 is the one for me.

[DonMountain]

Do all of these loads produce the same chronographed velocity in your rifle with the same projectile? And produce the same accuracy? Define "superb accuracy".

[dakotaduke]

The loads were for illustrative purposes from the Lyman manual. I didn’t comment on velocity. Lyman shows different velocities for the various loads. I’m old (72) so my definition of superb accuracy with iron sights may be different than yours. With 5744 I’m getting five rounds in five inches at 200 yards. The whole purpose of my post is that folks shouldn’t worry about the higher per pound price if 5744 as we get more loads from that pound.

[onelight]

You made a good point , unless your 45-70 is a Gatling gun I wouldn't worry about the powder cost anyway.:Fire:

[Alstep]

First off, Welcome!
Just shoot what's best for you, and don't worry about anyone else. Enjoy your 45-70! And be safe.

[725]

What Alstep said !! I love 5744. The only problem I have is getting it. Many stores around me don't carry it.

Welcome aboard.

[Carrier]

I would love to use 5744 but no one carries it where I am. So it’s 4198 or Goex.

[W.R.Buchanan]

They probably told you that, because you shoot better than they do, and they are trying to bring you down to their level. :holysheep

Randy

[RedlegEd]

Hi all! May I recommend you consider Shooter's World "Buffalo Rifle" (Lovex D060.) It used to be sold as 5744 before Accurate changed sources. I use it 1:1 and have the same excellent results, and the cost is significantly less than 5744.
Ed

[44Blam]

I like Varget for my 1895 - it has the lowest ES of any powder I've tried.

I have used H4198, H4895, Trailboss and I just ordered some H335.

Trailboss is like shooting a .22. Then on the other end of the spectrum, I've shot 4198 loads that were within the max load that rattled my fillings out. What I noticed is the slower burning powders tend to make the recoil a little more like a push than a jolt. So, 4198 gets painful pretty quickly, but 4895 is a little more forgiving and Varget is a bit more forgiving still. I am looking forward to trying H335 - it's between 4198 and 4895 but way more available than either.

[waksupi]

I use WC872 from Barlett's Reloading. Use a kicker, and get great accuracy, cheap!

[fredj338]

Are all the velocities the same with the loads in your chart? If not, then the chart isn't really valid. I am fine with 3031 & cast in my 45-70, mild to pretty wild. If you just want to shoot cheap, 8-9gr of unique with a Dacron was is pretty cheap for 1000fps shooting. it wont get you to 500y but it is cheap.

[Chill Wills]

dakotaduke

I like that you did a comparison. If you choose powders/charges that produce velocities that are in the same range, that is plenty good enough to see that pricier by the pound does not have to mean pricier by the shot.
You can refine more as you go based on more experience with the rifle.

Well done!

Sounds like to me, you are getting enough accuracy at the longer ranges to make hits and have fun! And that is the point.
Enjoy your rifle. BTW-at least you are getting out and shooting. That is the best part.

Welcome to the forum.

[dakotaduke]

The load I ended up with is 26 grains of 5744 which produces 1275 FPS. I used loads for the Trapdoor Springfield as I don’t need to batter my shoulder and they will still reach out to 800+ yards in competition.

[EDG]

If you ever find some SR4759 give it a try. For me it works even better than 5744.
About 23 to 25 grains with a 500 grn bullet. I don't pay much attention to cost.


The load I ended up with is 26 grains of 5744 which produces 1275 FPS. I used loads for the Trapdoor Springfield as I don’t need to batter my shoulder and they will still reach out to 800+ yards in competition.

[lar45]

Hi DakotaDuke, I have just one problem with this whole thread! There aren't any pics of your rifle ;)

Welcome to the forum :)

[dakotaduke]

lar45...you are so right. I've included a couple of photos of the rifle. It is a Pedersoli Competition Sharps in 45-70. 34" heavy octagon barrel and weighs 13 pounds. The sights are from Lee Shaver and include a Soule long-range on the rear and a globe spirit level on the front.

[44Blam]

lar45...you are so right. I've included a couple of photos of the rifle. It is a Pedersoli Competition Sharps in 45-70. 34" heavy octagon barrel and weighs 13 pounds. The sights are from Lee Shaver and include a Soule long-range on the rear and a globe spirit level on the front.

I love that rifle. I gave my buddy some 45s that were 500 grain boolits with 42 grain of varget. They were hot in my Marlin. But with that heavy gun, it was mild. I believe they were in the 1400-1500 fps range. But what an accurate load in that Pedersoli...

[SwissShooter]

30 gr 4198, card wad, fill case w/coarse Cuban corn meal, 300 gr cast boolit. Accurate and smells good too.

[Dapaki]

I use WC872 from Barlett's Reloading. Use a kicker, and get great accuracy, cheap!

What kicker and how much are you using?

[Green Frog]

I had a 45-70 barrel made for my high wall takedown about 30 years ago and when I shot it with smokeless I used a “modest” charge of 2400 behind the old standard 405 grain bullet. I was told by my shooting partner that he could tell when my charge was about right by the length of my “snot string” on full recoil... that thing really rocked me back! :shock:

I later had a high wall musket built with a heavier barrel and used it pretty much exclusively with BP. I found this to be much more pleasant to shoot, but maybe I could haul it out and try some 5744 in it, or more likely I’d try 4759 as I squirreled away a bunch of that in my Schuetzen days. Something else to play with at home during the quarantine. :coffee:

Froggie

[waksupi]

What kicker and how much are you using?

Try 6 gr. 4198.

[Dapaki]

Try 6 gr. 4198.

Thats a big kick! Any pressure signs?

Sitting right between H335 and H110, were you going for the faster or slower side of a kicker?

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK: a gun like that (nice gun) at 13 lbs won't kick enough to even notice until you get up into 500+ gr boolits at over 1400 fps.

What I would do with your gun, and what I did with my Marlin 1895 CB (8 lbs) was keep upping the charge until the recoil became noticeable. There was recoil, but I could shoot 50 shots in one morning and not be hurt. I ended up at 33 gr of 5744 with a 325 gr boolit. That load wouldn't even budge your rifle! You could pick it up alot before you noticed any objectionable recoil.

The other side of this is the Trajectory for whatever load you end up with has to be less than a Rainbow and with that rifle you could easily shoot 500+ gr boolits to 1000 yards, and have an acceptable trajectory without beating yourself senseless. You need to be able to sight in at say 200 yards and then predictably make elevation offsets based on a trajectory chart or computer program that is primarily looking at Velocity, Ballistic Coefficient, and Bullet Weight. There used to be charts in the back of Lyman Loading Manuals with trajectories for many different velocities for every boolit they made.

I can tell you from my own experience that once you settle on a bullet and load combo and suss out the trajectory you should "Write it all Down" so you can repeat the Recorded Elevation Offsets for each distance for next time you shoot. If you don't do this you are simply wasting time and money on ammo as every time you change something,,, you get to start all over. Pick a Load and stick with it!

My computer generated Offsets for shooting my .308 Scout Rifle in Long Range Silhouette, were verified by shooting the 4 distances off a bench rest. They followed the computer like they were on a string. With a 200 yard Mechanical Zero. (Where you go back to each time you are done shooting by returning your turret to the zero position or receiver sight to the stop.) 200 Meters for Chickens = 220 yards = +.5 MOA. 300 M Pigs= 330 yards= +4.0 MOA, 385 M Turkeys =420 yards=+7.5 MOA, and 500 M Rams=550 yards= 12.75 MOA.

I have been using these same offsets for 10+ years! and they still work simply because I am shooting the exact same load in the same gun that I started with.

I might add that the Elevation Offsets on Lyman and Redfield Receiver Sights work exactly the same way and repeat just as well as any quality scope's turrets should. This was the way people shot long distances up until recently IE: with Iron Sights. and all of the methods for acquiring DOPE that we use today were developed before 1900 with guns just like YOURS!

Your Soule Tang Sight and Globe Front sight are precise pieces of machinery, and if you learn how to work them the results will be Predictable and Repeatable.

Plenty of literature out there to teach you how to do this and once you've learned it,,, you will be a Proper Rifleman

It ain't that hard and used to be Basic Infantry Rifle Training,,, so it had to be easy enough that virtually anyone could learn it..

That is a seriously nice rifle and I'd love to have one like it ! You done good, now go learn it..

Randy

[dakotaduke]

Randy,

You are right on in your assessments. I get my best accuracy with 26 Gr of 5744 with the 535 Gr Lyman Postell bullet. I have it sighted in at 200 yards and then extrapolate out to 875 yards with a good ballistics program as you mentioned. I’m getting 1275 FPS on the chronograph. Last year I shot the Lyman 405 Gr bullet and find my trajectory flatter this year probably due to the heavier and better ballistics bullet.

[FarNorth45]

Nice looking Rifle you got there !!!
Man i want a Sharps so bad i can't stand it !!! Right now for light loads i shoot a 405gr non checked over 9grs of tite group and that groups awesome for inside 100yrd plinking .
My full house load is a Gas checked RCBS 405fn (424gr for me) over 46grs of H322 . H322 has so far been the best grouping powder for my Henry Lever gun . This is my brown bear gun , haven't chronographed this load yet but it will lite you up when that trigger is squeezed Haha

[murf205]

Always be on the lookout for 4759. It is the powder of choice for my Marlin CB. My hard hitting load (both ends) is 29.5 grs w/dacron filler behind a 405gr Accurate GC for 1675 fps average. Like FarNorth said, it will light you up but it is very accurate. Dakotaduke, that is a beautiful rifle.