Why no pointed bullet molds ?

[Wolfdog91]

So I've been looking at various moulds to buy and u was curious ,why isn't there any pointed molds in certain calibers ? Like seems all the .224 molds are semi wad cutters. Why is that ?

[Winger Ed.]

Interesting.

Maybe-

The sharp point would get dinged up in a magazine or with feeding.

Or, in that cal. and speeds, the lower speed limit for cast rules out enough hunters to not make it profitable to make the molds.
If they 'worked', and there was a demand for them, it would be supplied.

If the lion's share of the markets for molds is target shooters, FP & SWCs is where the money is to be made.

For those that always play the blame game that 'its always about the money':
That's basically true..... Nobody works for free, at least not for very long.

[corbinace]

Tooling for a point could be problematic maybe.

[Minerat]

Look at the NOE 225-51-SP-BA5 I have one and it is hard to size using a LAM1 and seat them in cases without leaving a ring around the nose. So sharp they will draw blood if not careful. I haven't had a chance to do any accuracy testing yet just trying to get a load that will cycle my AR everytime with cast.

[jimb16]

I have a couple of .224 molds that are round nose. One is a 55 gr bullet the other is 40 gr.

[megasupermagnum]

My best guess is that tools for making molds is already delicate, and 22 caliber is the worst of the worst. A sharp spritzer is worse yet.

[M-Tecs]

Tooling is not the issue. Unsupported spitzer noses tend to slump and accuracy is the main issue. That being said I have never worked with anything other than spitzer 45 Cal. bullets I tried for 600 and 1,000 yard competition. Never got them to shoot as well as more traditional designs nor has any of competitors I shot with. Also if I remember correctly at the lower velocities spizer bullets are not as beneficial as at higher velocities.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?76457-No-Conical-(Spitzer)-Lead-molds

[Win94ae]

spitzer 45 Cal. bullets I tried for 600 and 1,000 yard competition. Never got them to shoot well nor has anyone else that I am aware of.

I shoot the Lee 500gr Spitzer, they shoot great.

[Rcmaveric]

There are pointed bullets. They are mostly for bolt actions, single shots and used for long range.

For semi autos we use bullet hoses that feed reliably and for hunting you want a nose profile that feeds and kills reliably.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Traffer]

My guess is this:
Several reasons. Spitzer or pointed bullets would accentuate any errors in the mold.
Lead bullets as opposed to jacketed or solid copper cannot be driven hard or they will slump as M-tecs has pointed out. So they can only be used at slower speeds in which the points do not enhance accuracy ...maybe even detrimental to it.
I started making spitzer lead bullets with lead swaging equipment but when I realized the slump factor, gave it up.

[M-Tecs]

I shoot the Lee 500gr Spitzer, they shoot great.

That is an impressive group. Two questions. How repeatable is it and have you tried it past 200 yards? Past 200 yards traditional or Creedmoor type bullets have performed far better than spitzers for me. Under 200 I fully admit I have not worked with them much if at all. For hunting I tend to go with the largest meplat as possible.

[jwlegal]

I have just started with the .224. I promised myself I would never try to cast or even reload such a small caliber. Then I saw what happened to the supply of all things reloadable when the virus started scaring folks. Decided to have a way to supply a black gun if needed. Wish I had remembered my promise to myself. The small caliber makes sizing a real problem. There is not enough lead to support pressure so deformed noses become a real problem. I did find beagles three part story of his adventures in casting for the 223.http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/default.html That helped a lot. But I think the pointed small caliber is just so difficult to prepare that it isn't done. The round nose or semi-pointed nose is problem enough. By the way, thank you beagle for sharing your hard work and experience. Sure did help me.

[RedlegEd]

Hi jwlegal,
I can understand your modifying an older promise about casting/reloading small bullets, but "desperate times...." One thing I might recommend is to use a Lee push through sizer for your little bullets. I cast a .264 "Cruise Missile" (NOE 266-140-FN GC BY2) that doesn't stand up very well to sizing with Lyman or RCBS luber sizer. I went ahead and paid the money to have Lee custom make a push through sizer in .266, and it works wonders not only seating & crimping the gas checks, but sizing as well. Instead of wax based lubes, I now powder coat or Hi-Tek these bullets. Hope this helps.
Ed

259737

[Chris S]

Lyman has produced many spitzer moulds, I have 2 in 25 cal, 1 in 22 cal and 2 in 30 cal. As noted above though, that shape just does not lend itself well to smaller lead bullets for many reasons. Your much better off to find something with lots of bearing surface and a blunt conical or ogival tip ending in a flat point.

Even more important are size and speed. The inclination on smaller calibers is to push them too hard, don't. And slug that bore and size accordingly. Especially critical in smaller calibers.

Chris

[beagle]

You're looking for something on the order of the Lyman 225450. Nose was sharp as all get out. Never shot well for me in the .223 or .22 Hornet. Should be able to find one with a little looking./beagle

[djryan13]

When I asked Tom at Accurate:

“ Can't make a spitzer nose.
.18" minimum diameter meplat required”

Something to do with his tooling.

[M-Tecs]

When I asked Tom at Accurate:

“ Can't make a spitzer nose.
.18" minimum diameter meplat required”

Something to do with his tooling.

Tom single points his molds on a lathe. He also will not do molds much under 30 cal due to the method he uses.

[Forrest r]

I shoot the Lee 500gr Spitzer, they shoot great.

There's different types of pointed bullets, in this thread there's several different things going on.

In the quoted post above, that bullet has an extremely strong pointed bullet design being only 3r which is actually called a round nosed bullet.
The bullet has a short tangent ogive not the typical long spitzer style secant ogive.

Bullet slump is real but you'll be hard pressed to see it pushing a pointed bullet only 1500fps. Affects when that 1500fps bullet goes transonic, yes/nose slump no.

Another lee bullet with a short tangent ogive (2r) and yes it's another round nosed bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/I2jt2AW.jpg

Bullets with these types of noses will not have nose slump. 2600fps+
https://i.imgur.com/tEeK5wb.jpg?1

When you start to get into bullets with the longer unsupported noses like these nose slump will start showing up.
https://i.imgur.com/yl6sLkT.jpg?1

Those bullets pictured above were cast from the same cramer mold, 1 a sp the other a hp which turned the bullet into a fn nosed bullet. I did head to head comparisons with those bullets pictured above using several different powders. The results were always the same, every time I got near the 2500fps mark the sp bullet started to fail (groups started to open up) where the fn'd hp still held the same groups.
https://i.imgur.com/uLdIPcZ.jpg

At the end of the day you have to drive a bullet hard enough/fast enough to know if there's any nose slump in that bullets design. If you're keeping them under 1800fps it shouldn't matter.

There's nothing wrong with using pointed bullets, you'll find the ones that perform the best have 2r/3r ogive's when pushing them 2000fps+.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Have a number of 'spitzer' moulds for 40 and 45 cal

https://i.imgur.com/vsptEjLl.jpg

[M-Tecs]

Forrest r you may be correct about it being bullet shape transonic issue verse a bullet slump issue.

At under 200 yards I never noticed much if any difference but since the BPCR game is played a much longer yardage most of my testing was 200 to a 1,000 yards. All of my comparison testing was done with real black powder and maybe a smokeless kicker for fouling control. That was in the days kickers charges were still allowed. I don't know at what yardage the bullets dropped below 1,125 FPS. I never could get the spitzer to shoot well at distance. Same for most is not all the the BPCR shooters that I am aware of at the time. I believe that is still true today.

[Wolfdog91]

Hmm this is all expreamy interesting

[quilbilly]

I have had only one spire style mold. It was in 257 caliber. The accuracy of that boolit was underwhelming compared to a semi-pointed or round nose boolits of nearly the same weight at the same MV.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

So I've been looking at various moulds to buy and u was curious ,why isn't there any pointed molds in certain calibers ? Like seems all the .224 molds are semi wad cutters. Why is that ?

Lots of good comments so far.
Bottom line is, there are pointy molds out there in all calibers, you just have to look. They aren't popular, so they aren't numerous.

[Iowa Fox]

Lyman 429303 and its 357 counterpart are pointed. They made sizing stems to fit them to use in their 450 and seating stems for the Lyman seating die. I have the set ups for the 44 & 357. I don't shoot many but cast hard they give good penetration when I need it.

[bigjake]

I have a NOE 311-199-SP-K5 It is a really sharp bullet. I PC it, gas check it and dip the bottom half in 45-45-10 lube, then load them pretty hot for an ar 10. they shoot plenty good for any battle someone could be in for sure. they shoot better than 7.62x51/.308 ball ammo.

[redhawk0]

I have an OLD...Ideal 225450 mold that produces 48gr pointed boolit. I have sent them down the barrel of my 22-250 on occasion. I have to admit though...I don't use them much. I prefer 55gr pointed jacketed better.

redhawk

[WinchesterM1]

259803

I shoot this a lot out of my 300blk

[Win94ae]

There's different types of pointed bullets, in this thread there's several different things going on.

In the quoted post above, that bullet has an extremely strong pointed bullet design being only 3r which is actually called a round nosed bullet.
The bullet has a short tangent ogive not the typical long spitzer style secant ogive.

Yes, I use the 160gr pointed round nose in my AK at 1800fps with great results, I also use the RCBS 7.62-130-SPL in my 30-30 at 2300fps. They are pointed, they work passed transonic flight with no problems. I've never had a problem with any cast bullets, that wasn't actually a problem with twist, or jump, or whatnot. Shot the AK at 600, the 45-70 at 350, and the 30-30 at 350; no problems whatsoever.

[John Boy]

Who made these 224 molds. All the Ideal molds ever made, there was not one 224 nominal mold made

[Texas by God]

In the OP semi wad cutter .224” moulds are mentioned. Other than Some Remington .22 LR styles( Yellow Jacket) I’ve never seen a .224” SWC.

[Forrest r]

Yes, I use the 160gr pointed round nose in my AK at 1800fps with great results, I also use the RCBS 7.62-130-SPL in my 30-30 at 2300fps. They are pointed, they work passed transonic flight with no problems. I've never had a problem with any cast bullets, that wasn't actually a problem with twist, or jump, or whatnot. Shot the AK at 600, the 45-70 at 350, and the 30-30 at 350; no problems whatsoever.

Nice, glad to see you like using 2r/3r bullets that are pointed.
Never thought of using an ak for testing the accuracy of different bullets/cast bullets.
If you can't tell the difference in the accuracy of your loads between supersonic and after they go transonic, that's called a clue.

[Good Cheer]

500 grains, swaged from soft lead, but cast could do the job. My brother's MOA load is 1800FPS.
http://i.imgur.com/7AP5gYp.jpg (https://imgur.com/7AP5gYp)

[Dan Cash]

I shoot the Lee 500gr Spitzer, they shoot great.
Stretch that range out to 8 or 900 and your joy will probably be reduced.

[M-Tecs]

Stretch that range out to 8 or 900 and your joy will probably be reduced.

I've never really thought about this a lot other than I have never been able to get them to shoot at distance. It's been long enough since I did direct comparisons and I really don't remember how they performed at 100 and 200 yards but they must have shown promise since I did test them at 300, 600 and 1,000 yards. I do remember seeing a measurable difference at 300. At a 1,000 they were not close to being competitive to the Postell or Creedmoor designs. Same for everyone else that I was aware of that tried them for distance. Even with the better BC I opted to give up on them and followed the common believe it was bullet slump. Thinking about it now if it was bullet slump it should show at all yardages?

Just a thought. It might be as simple as what Hornady discovered with their Doppler Radar and plastic points. Might it be as simple as the pointy bullets tips get hot from air friction? Doesn't have to be hot enough to melt just hot enough to weaken the point and the spin does the rest.

Bottom line is I am not aware of any top competitors using them so the apparent lesser accuracy is offsetting any wind drift benefits. If they work well at longer ranges the competitors would be using them.

[Forrest r]

Raw accuracy, plinking accuracy, good enough for me accuracy, 1800fps

These seem to be the common theme in this thread. The op asked about pointed bullets/lack of pointed bullet molds. At the end of the day they are out there. It really comes down to what you want and what performance level you'll accept.

The 45/70 keeps coming up in this thread, excellent!!!! This proves the us didn't buy into a $600 hammer 100+ years ago when it adopted the cartridge for it's small arms. 1800fps & a 45/70 bullet: It's advantage is what's know and momentum, simply put it has mo mentum then smaller caliber lighter bullets. A +/- 500gr bullet in a 45/70 (1800fps) will have less drop (+/- 8") @ 200yds compared to a 224" cast bullet doing 1800fps. That same 45/70 bullet will stay supersonic out to 400yds+ while the .224" bullet is done at around 200yds.

+/- 1800fps keep coming up, more likely then not it's the threshold of the bullet design, the equipment, alloys. With careful casting, sorting, case prep, quality firearm moa @ 100yds is actually easy to do with cast bullets. I've showed this target before, it's the lee tl-160gr 2r bullet doing 2600fps+ 10-shot group ( 1 1/2").
https://i.imgur.com/tEeK5wb.jpg?1

Same bullet slowed down to 1900fps + 10-shot group moa
https://i.imgur.com/PWiZFog.jpg

What both those targets have in common besides the same bullet/rifle is:
I only did a visual inspection of the bullets, used home made gc's made out of al, used mixed nato brass (+/-8 different head stamps). I'm sure the groups for both loads would be cut down in size if I did weight sorting and used brass from the same lots. Anyway MOA 1800fps 10-shot groups, big deal!!!! It's not hard to shoot 10-shot moa groups (+/- 1800fps) @ 100yds with cast bullets. Step up the velocity or shrink the groups down to 1/2 moa, now it's game on.

Heck 40 years ago Eagan molds were the rage. The designs were for raw accuracy & none of them had pointy noses/tips. A typical Eagan design that has a 5/32 flat nose
https://i.imgur.com/LPn6FPn.jpg
Eagan designed a smaller version of that bullet .224" in diameter that has a 1/8" flat nose

A couple of years ago several members on this website got together and designed a bullet in 30cal with velocity/accuracy in mind. NEO makes the mold for that design & it has all the specs
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30_343&products_id=3244

Myself I've never did anything with cast .224" bullets, looked at the 22 hornet & 222rem, kicked the tires a little bit but never went down that road. Always stuck with the 30cals for some reason. There's a lot of good threads out there with casters doing excellent things with their cast .224 bullets. I wish there were more threads with .224" cast bullets.