Help w/ Casting for an inline ML

[Black Wolf]

Gentlemen, I thought I'd run it by the experts what I'd like to try and do - it is likely common already, but I need some guidance on how to and what to use.

I have a CVA Optima Inline Muzzleloader (ML) w/ scope that I'd like to shoot more frequently. However, the cost of my good ole commercial products is just too expensive to do a lot of shooting (ie, I use pyrodex pellets and powerbelt bullets $$$$ wow!).

What I'd like to move into is using cast bullets in my inline and then, from what I read, it is possible to use some forms of smokeless powder as well. I like the versatility of being able to use smokeless powder in an inline ML and in traditional firearms both.

I have a ton of WW's that I'd like to consider casting and using in my 50 cal. inline (thinking possibly I could shoot them without hardening them w/ a BHN of about 9).

So here's the question: Is it possible?

What cast bullet design (I prefer Lee moulds)?
What smokeless powder (If it's possible)?
Do you lube the bullet, or use a lubed patch?
Load data availability?

One more note, I'd like to use whatever mold design and powder for deer hunting - so keep that in mind. Thanks.

Thank you experts.

[wiljen]

Check the manufacturers guidelines as the only smokeless powder MZ I'm aware of is the Savage and it only allows very specific doses of very specific powders to be used. Quite frankly using smokeless in a MZ sounds like a great way to have a horrific accident. If you want to save $ on powder wait til January when the big box stores start closing out the hunting stuff and buy it up at that point. I usually can find T7 loose powder for $7 a lbs at walmart.

As for Casting, pure lead and 380gr Maxiballs seem to work best in mine.

[Maven]

BW, I don't think your rifle is designed to handle the pressure generated by smokeless powder loads, so the answer to that is a resounding "NO!" That leaves you with BP or BP substitutes, e.g., 777, Pyrodex RS, Blackhorn 209. Problem is, the substitutes are much more expensive than BP: You'll have to decide whether their advantages, e.g. ease of cleaning (not with Pyrodex), outweigh their cost. Btw, I was recently in the same boat as you as I purchased an inline several months ago. Here's what I can tell you:

1) Inlines appear to be sensitive to powder granulation. Mine shoots significantly better with LOOSE powders, both Pyrodex RS and/or Goex FFg. I'm not interested in the "convenience" of pelllets.

2) They may also be sensitive to primer type: #209's v. BP #209's v. #11 percussion caps if your rifle allows the latter.

3) As with cartridge rifles, cast bullet fit, and to a certain extent, CB design, affect accuracy. E.g., I've tried .50cal. T/C and Lyman Maxi-Balls, T/C Maxi-Hunters and Lee REAL's, both 250gr. & 320gr. and have found the Maxi-Balls to be the most accurate, probably because they fit my rifle best. (They are essentially a bore-ridng design, but in reverse.)

4) You can also use round balls, but you'll need to experiment with ball diameter and patch thickness and live with reduced powder charges, e.g., no more than 60grs. FFg or Pyro RS for the best accuracy.

5) You lube & patch RB's, but Maxi-'s, Minie's and REAL's require lube only (no patch). It also helps to swab yor bbl. after every shot with concicals, particularly if using heavy (80grs. +) of BP or Pyrodex.

6) RB's or conical projectiles cast from wheelweights may be too hard to push down bore and too hard to obturate given the pressure generated by non-smokeless powders. You'll have to experiment with WW's v. pure lead to know what your rifle prefers. (I use only pure Pb.)

7) The most economical shooting, even with rising prices, will be with home cast projectiles, especially RB's, and loose BP.

Hope this helps!

[Old Ironsights]

For GP hunting/target out of a modern ML like the Optima (Which is NOT rated for smokeless) is the Lee REAL.

It casts easily and shoots better than Patched RB in the new guns.

Your choice in 200gr or 250 gr... though I've seen customs as big as 500gr.

REALS are also less sensitive to handling than Minies and easier to load than Maxis.

WW is generally too hard for Front Stuffing, but 50/50 works OK in REALs.

[catkiller45]

DO NOT USE SMOKELESS in that rifle-please don't-for your own safety.......Wheel weights might work-you will have to experiment with them...But I would use softer if you can...I myself have found that loose powder gives better accuracy for my rifles...I can never get the pellets to work...I have found that with the lee real bullet,I also get better accuracy if I place a wad between the bullet and powder...

I would try to find some softer lead and mix it with the wheel weights like maybe 50 to 50....But please don't use smokeless in your rifle.....I think it was a BIG mistake when Savage made their new rifle..God know how many people have tried smokeless in their muzzle loaders......Good luck and be safe...The cost isn't worth loosing an eye or what ever....John

[Black Wolf]

Ok - well that answers most of the questions i believe. The smokeless powder I read briefly on was the Savage stuff.

I don't believe my Optima can work with #11s, only 209s.

Crap on the WWs - I don't have a good source for pure lead.

Thanks guys - I'll still take more suggestions from other folks though.

[Old Ironsights]

Stick-ons are largely Pure Lead.

Also, ask around and find out which dentists in your area are still using X-Rays. You would be suprised how many of the old guys still have a box or three of Pure Lead X-ray Film foils in the back room somewhere. I got about 50lbs that way.

Mixed with ww at 50/50 that gives you a LOT of 200gr REALs.

[HEAD0001]

Too each his own, but I have never had a problem shooting WW out of a MZ. I have been doing it for years. The way a couple of old timers explained it to me was that WW was too "hard" for the very old, and weak steel barrels, but modern barrels do not suffer from this weakness. And I have never had any obturation problems with WW. And my accuracy has always been great. So I say try it first.

I never could understand how a WW bullet is OK at 1400 fps from a 45-70, but it is not OK in a MZ at 1400 fps?? The only thing diffrent is the type of powder used, so the pressure curve is different, thus the obturation could be different. However my results on straight WW have been perfectly acceptable to me. But I also think the heavier bullet helps.

I recommend the RCBS Hotchkiss mold that is adjustable for length(and hence weight). This allows some addjustment in your bullet. I cast mine at 525 grains. This bullet is a real shooter in my inline MK85 as well as my Lyman LH flinter.

Just my opinion. Tom.

[Old Ironsights]

Problem isn't obturation but beating the sucker down the barrel. If you are using WW you either need a big hammer and a stout rod or be shooting way undersized bullets and hoping for good obturation with no cutting.

Even with Patched Round Ball - where the lands really only/mostly engage the patch - WW balls are a PITA to ram home.

[wiljen]

Another option is to go to MMP Sabots and buy them empty (about $10 a hundred) and cast .45 cal 250-300 gr pistol bullets (black sabot) or .458 300-350gr rifle bullets (specialty orange sabot) to put in them. Still a substantial savings compared to the packaged sabot options at the wally world.

[jack19512]

Problem isn't obturation but beating the sucker down the barrel. If you are using WW you either need a big hammer and a stout rod or be shooting way undersized bullets and hoping for good obturation with no cutting.





I hate to disagree but this just isn't true. At least not true for everyone. I have the Lee 360 GR. Minnie mold and shot quite a few straight wheel weight boolits before getting me some pure lead and never had any trouble getting them down the barrel, about the same as loading sabot's for me. I shot them sized and as cast and no problem getting them down the barrel. I just didn't get the accuracy I wanted with the straight wheel weights and I will admit that maybe I just didn't find the right load.

[jack19512]

Do you lube the bullet, or use a lubed patch?







Again, going against the grain of some I use(used) the LLA on both the straight wheel weights and soft lead and have had gool luck.

[Old Ironsights]

I hate to disagree but this just isn't true. At least not true for everyone. I have the Lee 360 GR. Minnie mold and shot quite a few straight wheel weight boolits before getting me some pure lead and never had any trouble getting them down the barrel, about the same as loading sabot's for me. I shot them sized and as cast and no problem getting them down the barrel. I just didn't get the accuracy I wanted with the straight wheel weights and I will admit that maybe I just didn't find the right load.

Minnie's are, by definition, undersized. Try it with a REAL or a Maxi sometime... :bigsmyl2:

[OBXPilgrim]

Wiljen has the answer that worked for me.

Before you decide what it is that you're going to shoot in your ML, you ought to let your ML tell you what it wants to shoot.

I tested all kinds of different slugs in my H&R Sidekick. I bummed, bought, and traded everyone I work with to get every kind of different bullet on the market. Gave some guys a way to get some money back for stuff that didn't work for them, and I didn't have to shell out a bunch of money for a bunch of stuff that wouldn't work for me.

I got the best accuracy with my gun with the sabots using a cast WW bullet - the Lee .44 cal 240gr TL SWC slug, using 80 grains of 777 loose powder. Tried Minies, roundballs, Reals, Maxi-balls, powerbelts and the sabots won out for me. Made me happy - I can cast a bunch for what those powerbelts cost. And you'll never lead your barrel with a sabot.

[HEAD0001]

All I know for sure is that I have never had to "beat one down the barrel". However I personally think it is a good idea to size your bullets. however I will admit that in my MK85 I do not size the bullets from the HotchKiss mold, and they fit fine, and shoot great?? Tom.

[jack19512]

Minnie's are, by definition, undersized. Try it with a REAL or a Maxi sometime... :bigsmyl2:






You may be right about this but the point for me was about using wheel weights for a muzzle loader not so much the type boolit. I'm not sure why a REAL or MAXI would be hard to load if sized.

[jack19512]

I got the best accuracy with my gun with the sabots using a cast WW bullet - the Lee .44 cal 240gr TL SWC slug, using 80 grains of 777 loose powder.








I'm going to have to try this. I have the 44 cal. 240 gr. SWC boolits.

[NSP64]

Another option is to go to MMP Sabots and buy them empty (about $10 a hundred) and cast .45 cal 250-300 gr pistol bullets (black sabot) or .458 300-350gr rifle bullets (specialty orange sabot) to put in them. Still a substantial savings compared to the packaged sabot options at the wally world.

That's what I do, but I use my .430 310 Lee boolits in a green (44) sabot:drinks:

[mikenbarb]

I go three ways with mine. I use pure lead for the Maxi-Balls and ww's for the 250gr. Lee REAL's and never had a problem. I also cast a .451dia and use it in sabots for higher velocities and longer ranges. Just remember one thing with the lead boolits without sabots, LUBE, LUBE, LUBE! I currently use Bore Butter but switching to NASA lube as soon as it comes in.

[Black Wolf]

That's what I do, but I use my .430 310 Lee boolits in a green (44) sabot:drinks:

Hey, I may be half way there because I already got the Lee 430-310 mold and use them for my Vetterli.

I just found these and it says it'll work for 429/430 diam bullet: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=562630&t=11082005

I assume that those sabots will work in my 50 cal with the lee 430-310 mold then?

How much powder (either 777 or pyrodex) powders? (I moving away from the pre-measured capsules).

Wow, now this has really got me wondering if I could use my .45 cal pistol bullets (Lee mold TL-452-230-2R) and use sabots for that bullet too.

[mikenbarb]

I think thats a 45cal sabot and you may need a .450-.452dia mold for the 50 caliber sabots. I use a .452dia and size to .451 so it has perfect dimensions in the sabot hull.

[jack19512]

I just found these and it says it'll work for 429/430 diam bullet: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=562630&t=11082005






I have been wanting to try these but the price seems to me to be high considering you only get 50 of them. Anyone know where to get them at a better price?

[mikenbarb]

Jack, If you want to try some cast 451's or 452's shoot me a pm with your info and I will send you some to try out. What sabots do you have because I have 3 molds I use for different ones. I can also send you some Lee REAL in both weights and some Maxi-Balls cast with a T/C mold.

[Black Wolf]

I have been wanting to try these but the price seems to me to be high considering you only get 50 of them. Anyone know where to get them at a better price?

How about these?
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/ item #: 072-H15044GR

[testhop]

you cancast mini ball max ball modern miniball plains bullet you can look at t.c lee lyman for moulds also plus others look them up and get one you like the looks of.
make your boolits out of soft leadjust enought tin to get full fillout

[wiljen]

Truth is about 80% of all the Muzzleloader sabots are either made by MMP or Harvester (Clay Buster). MMP Sells directly (mmpsabots.com). Harvesters can be bought at midsouth or grafs.

I usually buy direct from mmp as they save me a $ or 2. Now I wonder what a 45-70 loaded with a sabot with a 40 cal bullet would do?

[Underclocked]

Harvester sells direct also - you just call them. They have a .50/.40 sabot that nobody else is carrying yet - to my knowledge.

[mikenbarb]

Heres a few ways you can load for it. The left is a Traditional Mini next is a Maxi-Ball, then both sizes of Lee REAL's then a .451 Speer Pistol w/ Hornady Magnum sabot and last is a M&P sabot with a .452 cast boolit. Oh, theres a RB on the bottom that I like to play with once and a while.
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/079.jpg

[Black Wolf]

I guess then it is feasible to shoot my Lee 230 grain .451/.452 cast bullet in my ML then if I use the correct sabot then? (Lee's TL-452-230-2R mold).

[jack19512]

How about these?
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/ item #: 072-H15044GR






Thanks for the link. :)

[Underclocked]

http://s4.tinypic.com/sg1kyw.jpg

the above shows combinations of bullets and sabots (certainly not all) but from that you can get an idea of how much diameter a particular sabot adds to total projectile diameter. Using that info - and after finding a combo that works well and isn't a major pain to load - you can make a fair guesstimate of what switching to a different bullet will give you, at least for ease of loading.

Measurements were taken by Busta and Big6X6 at ModernMuzzleloader. I just pieced together the pics. Sorry, don't have anything for the MMP Orange.