What buckshot size for better patterning?

[Geoffrey]

Hi folks, it’s been a while since I posted. Life has been crazy. Six kids and years of building my own house on a rural acreage has taken all my time.

I’ve been casting and loading low recoil 1oz Lee slugs for years and I’m looking to start casting and loading buckshot now too.

I want to stick with the components I’ve got for simplicity. I’ve been using gun club hulls with Fed 12S4 wads with nitro cards for the slugs.

I’d like to create a training load that patterns tight like flite control 00. Within reason of course.

My question is what size round ball should pattern best in these wads and hulls? I’m looking for simplicity given how busy my life is so no buffered loads or anything like that. I don’t mind if the shot size is larger or smaller than 00, the pattern is the goal not the buckshot size.

Any thoughts or guidance on how to get nice patterns out to say 20-30 yards?

Thanks

[centershot]

Welcome back Geoffrey! Buffer may not be totally necessary for 20-30 yard patterns but I would give serious thought to using it. After all, if you're going to invest the time to make good ammo for short range use, it makes sense to me to make that ammo as effective as it can be at long range also. Time is a commodity, use it wisely and avoid having to invest more time in ammo for longer ranges.

As far as which size shot, I would go with 00 as an "all around" size; easy to handle, 8-10 pellets per load so easy to count & stack and very effective. Something around 11-1200 fps should do the trick.

[megasupermagnum]

A lot of that depends on the gun you use, and what you consider good. For a fun shooting load, 00 buckshot in a 12S4 wad can certainly fill that bill. 00 buck is the obvious choice, but many use 1 buck and have great results as well. I had even better luck with 2 buck.

[pashiner]

A couple thoughts...bigger buckshot pellets are faster to cast and faster to load. Take Lee molds for example...they all cast 18 pellets. That gives you three shells per pour in the 000 size (6 pellet load), two shells per pour in the 00size (9 pellet) and two pours PER SHELL in the #4 size. (27 pellets). All for an appx 1 oz. +- load. If you're just after range blasting ammo, I would go with the 000. You can stack them 2x2 over a trap wad with the petals cut off for some super efficient/economical bang bang good time loads.
Patterning can be finicky with buckshot though, so some experimentation will be the only way to get the performance you desire. Harder, larger, rounder, better lubricated pellets pattern better in my gun.
If I were in your shoes, I'd pick a pellet size first, based on logistic criteria (time, price, hassle) and then work on making them pattern the way you want by adjusting hardness, velocity, choke, and wad first, and then add buffer/graphite/mica/wraps/powder coating only if you don't get satisfactory patterns. For my money, I do #000 in trap loads with the wad petals removed for practice and steel shoots, and load a box or two of #4 the same way, but buffered with cream of wheat for predator control (#4 buck is the biggest shot size legal for predators in Pennsylvania). They pattern about the same in my cyl bore beater gun...which is pretty darn wide. An inch a yard or more. For actual home defense ranges, I doubt it matters.
As for flite-control style patterns...that'll be hard to match without buffer, but probably not impossible. You might get there with the right choke and cheap easy to load shells, but that proprietary federal wad, hardened plated pellets and buffer have a lot to do with it.
Be prepared to get creative. I chased those patterns for a while too, and settled on slugs as my solution for anything outside of 30 yards.

[Hogtamer]

Here you go...http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313695-Buckshot-PERFECTION!
If you go with 00 use a two pellet stack and load by weight of the total number of shot.

[doghunter]

I tend to get the best patterns when pellets are stacked by 2s in a wad. I have a great 00 load stacked by 2s in an mg42 wad in 12 gauge. I also have a great 000 load stacked by 2s in a field commander wad, also in 12 gauge. And a 16 gauge 00 load stacked by 2s in a 16 gauge field commander wad. It just always seems to work out best stacked by 2s.

By patterns best, I mean 11-12" 40 yard patterns.

[Hogtamer]

^^^^ Yes, and HARD lead.

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, I only water drop buckshot. This is one area where you can produce something far better than you can buy. Even the nickel plated buckshot is nothing compared to quenched cast buckshot.

[Geoffrey]

Thank you for the reply and feedback. I suppose buffer isn’t too big a thing to add. My experience is limited so I’d been hoping to replace my 1oz slug with 2x nitro card for a similar weight of buckshot. Simple payload swap shouldn’t change pressure or cause other issues.

I’d been thinking smaller/larger than 00 to get a mold that drops shot that needs less post cast work than 00 buck. I thought most molds that cast 00 buck can be picky and require cutting each piece apart.

I would be aiming for low recoil loads so my wife and kids can practice too.

[Geoffrey]

Thanks for all the replies!

The molds I am considering are the two cavity Lee molds. I want to cast round balls that require less post cast work.

I was planning to water drop them. I’ve got both soft and hard tire weight lead all cleaned and in ingots ready to go.

I guess I’m curious in a 12S4 if the .311, .319, .350, etc would stack best 2x2 for 8 pellets around 1oz.

I certainly don’t mind trial and error but want to at least start with the right size mold. I was thinking .319...

[megasupermagnum]

Thank you for the reply and feedback. I suppose buffer isn’t too big a thing to add. My experience is limited so I’d been hoping to replace my 1oz slug with 2x nitro card for a similar weight of buckshot. Simple payload swap shouldn’t change pressure or cause other issues.

I’d been thinking smaller/larger than 00 to get a mold that drops shot that needs less post cast work than 00 buck. I thought most molds that cast 00 buck can be picky and require cutting each piece apart.

I would be aiming for low recoil loads so my wife and kids can practice too.

There are a few options out there for sprue cutting molds, but the most common is the Lee .310" (1 buck) 6 cavity. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1202/1/LEE-310-6C

Honestly clipping buckshot is not that much of a chore. I would rather not do it, but I don't hate it either. The Lee 18 cavity buckshot molds work well. You have to clip the shot apart. Marty's Arms also sells buckshot mold in every single size, including custom sizes, but again all shot must be clipped.

I use buffer a lot of the time in buckshot loads. It can help get you the best of the best loads. Adding it to buckshot is not as bad as adding it to bird shot. But if all you want to do is get most of the shot on target at 20-30 yards, especially if your gun has choke, then try without buffer first. You cannot add buffer with load data for non-buffered shot.

You can use lead shot data for buckshot with no issues. 8 pellets of 00 buck weights about 1 ounce. 00 stacks in 2's great in a wad, 1 buck stacks in 3's, and 2 buck stacks in 4's. Some say they even use 000 buck in a wad, but my experiences are that it always bulges the hull too much to chamber freely. I love 000 buck, although I use it without a wad cup.

[Geoffrey]

Thank you for your reply.

I’m in Canada and we can have short barrel shotguns without issue, the two shotguns I’m working with are a 14” barrel 870 and a 12.5” barrel 870.

Being short barreled I suspect it’ll take some work to get a pattern even close to the Federal loads. I’m using the Federal loads for any serious use or hunting. Just practicing with $1.20/round adds up quick.

[W.R.Buchanan]

There is another way to achieve tight buckshot patterns that doesn't involve reinventing the load.

It is called the Vang Comp Process and involves having your barrel modified by Hans Vang. This involves lengthening the forcing cone, back-boring the barrel to .745 and leaving a 2" choke in the last 2 inches back down to .730, then porting the barrel with 62ea. 1/16" holes to dampen muzzle rise.

The average 00 Buckshot pattern spread in a cylinder bore barrel is 15" at 15 yards with an additional inch for every yard beyond. So at 30 yards you are looking at 30" which for 9 pellets is spread kind of thin.

Vang Comp guarantees 7" at 25 yards and this has been proven not only by me, but literally 30 years and thousands of modified Police Shotguns he has been responsible for creating. This process reduces "Perceived Recoil" by smoothing out the recoil impulse and this makes the gun easier to shoot extensively over a few days in a Tactical Shotgun Class.

https://vangcomp.com/

My 20" M500 will do this all day long! Many may have noticed that I bring this up frequently and that is because it was the single most effective thing I have done to my Tactical Shotguns. The process results are literally night and day difference in the way the gun shoots, the patterning is exceptional, and the recoil becomes very easy to control and live with which allows you to concentrate on other gun handling skills, instead of dreading the next trigger pull.

This process will also work on your 14" gun. See his website they make 14" 870's for Police use all the time.

As far as buckshot,,, 00 stacks nicely in three 3 pellet layers. I have found that these group better than 8 pellet 000 loads.

Randy

[Geoffrey]

Thanks Randy, I am familiar with the Vang Comp treatment and have considered getting it done to both my 870s.

Since I use Federal flite control 00 buck I don’t think the Vang Comp barrel treatment would help with that.

Most of my practice is with low recoil cast slugs. Might simply be worth buying more of the flite control 00 buck for some occasional buckshot practice.

[megasupermagnum]

Thanks Randy, I am familiar with the Vang Comp treatment and have considered getting it done to both my 870s.

Since I use Federal flite control 00 buck I don’t think the Vang Comp barrel treatment would help with that.

Most of my practice is with low recoil cast slugs. Might simply be worth buying more of the flite control 00 buck for some occasional buckshot practice.

With rifled slugs, the back boring is likely acceptable. I can't believe that with most cast slugs that back boring would not be detrimental to accuracy. The short barrels are not a problem to pattern. If they are threaded for chokes, you are set.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ithaca figured out with it's "Deerslayer" shotguns that some choke in the barrel helped with slug accuracy . My Browning Miroku Buck Special is .730 to .715 at the muzzle and is pretty accurate with slugs.

My 20" M500 is pretty accurate with slugs as well. here's 3 shots at 50 yards off hand.

Randy

[Geoffrey]

Thanks folks.

I’ll give the Lee 6 cavity mold a try.

[M-Tecs]

It is called the Vang Comp Process and involves having your barrel modified by Hans Vang. This involves lengthening the forcing cone, back-boring the barrel to .745 and leaving a 2" choke in the last 2 inches back down to .730, then porting the barrel with 62ea. 1/16" holes to dampen muzzle rise.


Randy how much does the porting increase noise and low light level flash?

[W.R.Buchanan]

We can't even get Flight Control in CA. I might add that my gun patterns #8 birdshot into about 7" at 15 yards which makes for the most inexpensive practice for running the gun.

M-Tecs. ZERO increase in noise. It's a shotgun and doesn't work like a rifle with an MB. We are talking 1/16" holes not 1/4" plus, and also 11,000-12,000 psi versus 50,000+. I have heard some Trap Guys complain about increased noise next to them, but I think they are just looking for excuses for why their scores suck. I can't tell any difference on my Citori XT which has both barrels Back Bored and Ported from the factory.

Don't know about the Low Light Flash as I have never shot my gun in the dark, but the muzzle rise is definitely less so transition times are faster.

Randy.

[megasupermagnum]

Maybe not to the shooter. Porting on a shotgun directs the sound out to the sides, and are absolutely louder to anyone next to you.

[dsh1106]

Maybe not to the shooter. Porting on a shotgun directs the sound out to the sides, and are absolutely louder to anyone next to you.


Lyman Cutts Compensator = awesome gun control for followup shots!!! = headache for the people on either side of the shooter!!!

[buckwheatpaul]

I know that things change through time but way back in the early 1970's my agency carried 00 buck......they had some issues with them and they did an extensive test and we changed to Number 1 Buck and all of our problems evaporated......patterned well and they were still using that load when I retired in 2003.....look forward to seeing what the others have to offer.....

[6pt-sika]

I settled on 0 buck for loading in my 12 gauge SxS’s . Now with that being said I’ve run the gamut with buckshot in the 2 7/8” 10 gauge and killed deer with each size from #3 all the way up to 0000 (.380”) and 00000 (.395”) . And just let me say you need to think a bit outside the box with the larger sizes . I’m at a crossroads at the moment , I might have a project coming up where I can put 000000 (.425”) to work . A number of things need to happen before I get a mold for .425” but with a bit of luck it just might happen . Back to the original question of what’s the best size , for me for a 12 gauge it’s 0 hands down . Let me add the only screw choke gun I have is a Benelli Montefeltro 12 3” that was made in the 90’s . I’ve been shooting factory 3” loads of #1 , 00 and 000 using Kicks buckshot extended chokes . And I gotta say the #1 loads went to town one day on some unfortunate deer nuff said . Sorry to say I’ve not killed deer yet with the factory 3” 00 or 000 but I doubt it’ll be an issue granted I do have three Kicks buckshot chokes for that gun .

[Lloyd Smale]

My recipe is two layers of OO with shot buffer and then on top of that I fill the rest with #4 buck.

[GhostHawk]

I'm with Buckwhatpaul. Gave up on my OO mold and went to #1 buck.

They self stack, pour 9 into a hull and you get 3 perfect stacks of 3.
They don't make bulges on the outside of the hull when you crimp.

I have mine setup as more of a tactical or light buck load. Not pushing the speed or power.

It is still like getting shot with 9 .32acp's at once.

I like a little cornmeal buffer and an overshot card. My Father in law thought they were factory loads. But I did cheat and started with new primed RIO and Fiochhi hulls. Need to do some patterning tests at a few ranges.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I like a little cornmeal buffer and an overshot card. My Father in law thought they were factory loads. But I did cheat and started with new primed RIO and Fiochhi hulls. Need to do some patterning tests at a few ranges.

I Have taken both Lightfield and Brenneke shells apart to see what was in them and them reloaded them back into New Rio hulls which were identical to the Originals.

Absolutely no reason why any of us can't load Perfect "Factory Quality" Ammo using new components. There is nothing magic about it, and the hardest part is getting a decent Roll Crimp which ain't that hard.

Randy

[mattw]

I do not load big shot shells, but I do shoot a ported 870 with an 18" barrel. My main deer slug gun is a 1952 Wingmaster 2 3/4". 25+ years ago, when I had access to a milling machine I machined in 3 rows of ports, 1 each slightly left and right and one centered. The results were as good as I expected, having shot and owned many ported revolvers. It is definitely louder. Flash does not seem to be much different as I have taken many deer during the golden hours or slightly before or after.

The old 870 will group 3 in a cutting clover leaf at 75 yards offhand if and when I do my part, but only with the cheap crappy Remington Sluggers in 2 3/4". I did add a SpecOps II stock about 3 years ago after finding one at a flea market still in the package. Really, Really helped recoil. I have rotator cuff issues and shooting a box of slugs would put my shoulder in a world of hurt, not any more! But, I am afraid I may lose this old girl to my 17 yo daughter. She shoots it very well and has taken a couple of deer with it now. It is the most compact configuration that can legally be hunted with in our state and is wonderful in deep brush.