how much force to push cast bullet through cylinder throats???

[usmc0811]

I have known that having a good fitting bullet matters. However I just learned how to check if you have the correct size bullet in a revolver by placing the cast bullet in the throat end of the cylinder and see if you can push it through. And if you can do it with a little force then you are probably good to go as it is roughly .001-.002" bigger than the throat of the cylinder and that's what you want.
Well I went and grabbed my Ruger SP101 and some bullets I casted and gave it a go. The bullets I used were tumble lubed and resized. When placing them in the throat of the cylinder it took some force for me to get them to go through. I really don't know how much force but it took some. I pushed them through with the back side of a ball point pen. How much force should I be using to know its not to tight? I didn't need to use a mallet or anything just a good grip on the pen and applied good pressure till it pope through. I even tried it with the ones I powdercoated and it felt the same as the tumbled lubed ones. I dont know the exact size of the bullets or the resizing die I used as my micrometer and die are at a buddys house right now.

[Tatume]

Do they feel the same in all chamber throats? If so, they should shoot well with no leading. Try them.

[Schreck5]

I am shooting .454" in my .45 colt, and my boolits feel the same way. Dont have to use a hammer but i have to use a dowel and thump it as hard as the palm of my hand can stand. I've always wondered if the were too tight. I have reamed the cylinder to .4525. Anyway, i am glad you asked this question cause inquiring minds (mine) need to know.

Bruce

[bmortell]

my 44 revolver I made my sizer larger until it was a friction fit push though with a pencil and everything worked fine, so sounds like your good already. plus sometimes boolits grow with age anyway

[USSR]

I am shooting .454" in my .45 colt, and my boolits feel the same way. Dont have to use a hammer but i have to use a dowel and thump it as hard as the palm of my hand can stand. I've always wondered if the were too tight.

That's too much resistance. I would use .452" bullets with throats as you described.

Don

[leadhead]

I have a Taurus model 441 .44 special that has .432 dia chambers. I was getting
a small amount of leading with .430 dia cast. I ordered a NOE .432 mold, and the
leading went away. It's true..... size does matter.
Denny

[nawagner]

I am shooting .454" in my .45 colt, and my boolits feel the same way. Dont have to use a hammer but i have to use a dowel and thump it as hard as the palm of my hand can stand. I've always wondered if the were too tight. I have reamed the cylinder to .4525. Anyway, i am glad you asked this question cause inquiring minds (mine) need to know.

Bruce

My cylinders are reamed to 0.4525" as well and I run 0.454" cast bullets with no issues. You should be fine.

[USSR]

I recently had my cylinder throats honed to .4525" by Doug Guy so that I could use .452" bullets without sizing down the bullets. Why on earth would I use .454" bullets?

Don

[megasupermagnum]

You can use larger bullets if the front driving band is short. I do not believe it to be ideal, but it can work. Some worry about sizing down to the .0005", not me. Bullets should fit in a revolver with a "light drag". That can mean different things to different people. They should not fall through by gravity. If I had to put a number on it, I would say once started, you should need about a half pound to push it though. You should be able to push a bullet through with a toothpick.

The generally stated size is .0005" smaller than your cylinder throat.

Here is how I do it. I use pin gauges to measure. For example my 44 magnum, a .431" slips in no problem on all cylinders, while a .432" doesn't even start. I know that my throats are between .431" and .432", both with a -.0002" tolerance on the gauge. I size bullets to .431" for that gun, and they slip right in the throats, but don't fall through on their own. I don't see any reason to get more complicated than this. It works for me.

[usmc0811]

Do they feel the same in all chamber throats? If so, they should shoot well with no leading. Try them.

A few felt tighter but they were my powder coated ones.

[usmc0811]

i am glad you asked this question cause inquiring minds (mine) need to know.

Bruce

No problem Bruce, thanks for your reply. There is sooo much out there to learn when it comes to reloading and casting I have been at it several years now and just recently have been helping a friend get into it. He ask's questions all the time and I realized how little I know lol and have to look these things up to help him and I out. I guess it is a never ending learning process. We wil be casting for his .44 Mag. soon and I want to be sure we make the right decisions when choosing our casting alloy and bullet mold,as well as powder to make some awesome BOOLITS.

[usmc0811]

I have a Taurus model 441 .44 special that has .432 dia chambers. I was getting
a small amount of leading with .430 dia cast. I ordered a NOE .432 mold, and the
leading went away. It's true..... size does matter.
Denny

Thats what she said lol....

So first you had bullets to small then went a little bigger to match the bore dia. and now you are good to go, Cool. Glad you got it figured out. It can be a trial and error thing from what im understanding. Some guns like slightly bigger, some same size, some soft lead ,some hard lead and so on and so on........ Could be a little frustrating for sure as all you want to do is make bullets and go shoot them. But I guess that is also the reason we do this hobbie, is to tinker so to speak, use our hands, minds and sometimes blood sweat and tears to figure it all out. And in the end we get the satisfaction and pride of making great shooting bullets that we made not bought at a walmart. Thanks for the reply Denny

[usmc0811]

I am shooting .454" in my .45 colt, and my boolits feel the same way. Dont have to use a hammer but i have to use a dowel and thump it as hard as the palm of my hand can stand. I've always wondered if the were too tight. I have reamed the cylinder to .4525. Anyway, i am glad you asked this question cause inquiring minds (mine) need to know.

Bruce


My cylinders are reamed to 0.4525" as well and I run 0.454" cast bullets with no issues. You should be fine.

Now that's only one aspect of the equation though right? You also need to find the "sweet spot" with proper powder, lube, and bullet alloy to go along with your well fitting bullets.

[Tatume]

So first you had bullets too small then went a little bigger to match the bore dia. and now you are good to go, Cool.

No. Bullets should match the chamber throat diameter and be ever so slightly smaller than throat diameter. The chamber throat diameter should be larger than the groove diameter, which is in turn larger than the bore diameter. Throat > Bullet > Groove > Bore.

[usmc0811]

So first you had bullets to small then went a little bigger to match the bore dia. and now you are good to go, Cool.


No. Bullets should match the chamber throat diameter and be ever so slightly smaller than throat diameter. The chamber throat diameter should be larger than the groove diameter, which is in turn larger than the bore diameter. Throat > Bullet > Groove > Bore.
Sorry I was trying to say Cylinder throat dia.
Now is chamber throat and cylinder throat the same thing?
Im also a little confused when you say "Bullets should match the chamber throat diameter" and then go into saying this "ever so slightly smaller than throat diameter" What one is it same or smaller?? or were you talking about two different things?

[mdi]

"Push through", "drop through", "tap through" and "hammer through" are not measurements, and can mean way different things to different people. If you want to know, measure. You can slug a cylinder just like you slug a barrel or you can use pin/plug gauges or expanding ball gauges. I have slugged about 3/4 of my revolver cylinders and used pin gauges on most of the rest and one I had an expanding ball gauge to use. Then I size the bullets to the same diameter. In my reloading log I note the measurements for each gun I measure, in case I ferget...

But if you don't care to find out the throat diameter just drop a bullet through the cylinder, if it falls through freely, it's too small. If it won't enter the cylinder, it's too big. Anything in between will be swaged down by the throats when fired...

[reddog81]

I wouldn't worry about "chamber" throat diameter, assuming that's what is the space between where the case ends and the holes at the far end of the cylinder.. If you tried to match chamber throat diameter when shooting .38 Special out of a .357 Mag that mean you should be sizing bullets to something like .379"...

[murf205]

Remember this: if your cylinder throats (aka chamber throats) are, for example .430 and you boolit is .432, you are sending a .430 boolit down the barrel. nawagner, if you are getting accuracy without any leading you probably have a .451 or .452 barrel. The smaller cylinder throats are actually sizing the boolit to .452 but congrats for no issues, just shoot and enjoy. Your boolits should be a "light" slip fit, OR you can buy a few pin guages for cheap and KNOW exactly what the throats measure. As many, here, are prolly tired of hearing me advocate for the use of pin (or sometimes called plug guages), they solved a lot of accuracy and leading problems for me. Those, and a 1" micrometer to measure slugging the barrel, have been a huge help. Can I guarantee that your barrel wont lead and be rifle accurate? No, but it is a leg up on the starting process for sure.

[USSR]

I wouldn't worry about "chamber" throat diameter, assuming that's what is the space between where the case ends and the holes at the far end of the cylinder.. If you tried to match chamber throat diameter when shooting .38 Special out of a .357 Mag that mean you should be sizing bullets to something like .379"...

What??? Don't you realize that the only thing dimensionally different about a .38 Special and a .357 Magnum is the length of the case?

Don

[murf205]

I wouldn't worry about "chamber" throat diameter, assuming that's what is the space between where the case ends and the holes at the far end of the cylinder.. If you tried to match chamber throat diameter when shooting .38 Special out of a .357 Mag that mean you should be sizing bullets to something like .379"...

reddog81are you thinking that .38 special caliber is .38 in diameter? They both shoot .357-.358 boolits.

[Tatume]

Sorry I was trying to say Cylinder throat dia.
Now is chamber throat and cylinder throat the same thing?

No. A typical revolver cylinder has six chambers (some more, some fewer). Each chamber has a throat. There is no such thing as a "cylinder throat."


I'm also a little confused when you say "Bullets should match the chamber throat diameter" and then go into saying this "ever so slightly smaller than throat diameter" What one is it same or smaller?? or were you talking about two different things?

"Match" and "equal" are not synonyms. For example, when you take apart two bolt action rifles, you should match each bolt to the rifle from which it was removed. The bolts are correctly matched to their rifles if each rifle is reassembled with the bolt it came with.

A cast bullet is correctly matched to the chamber in which it will be fired if the bullet is ever so slightly smaller than the throat of the chamber.

[USSR]

Quote Originally Posted by usmc0811
Sorry I was trying to say Cylinder throat dia.
Now is chamber throat and cylinder throat the same thing?
as a "cylinder throat."


No. A typical revolver cylinder has six chambers (some more, some fewer). Each chamber has a throat. There is no such thing as a "cylinder throat."

We are dealing with semantics here. You can certainly make the case that there are cylinder throats (as in 6 of them). In any case, whichever term is used it is understood what is meant.

Don

[Tatume]

English is a wonderful and rich language. It can be used to accurately communicate complex ideas in very great detail. When we allow the language to deteriorate to "you can figure out what I meant," much of the richness and utility are lost.

[Wheelguns 1961]

Chamber exits?

[reddog81]

What??? Don't you realize that the only thing dimensionally different about a .38 Special and a .357 Magnum is the length of the case?

Don

I was trying to determine what Tatume means by Chamber throat and assumed he meant the point inside the cylinder where the chamber tapers from the case diameter to the bullet diameter... In post #14 he indicates there is a chamber throat and another throat further down the cylinder.

Match the bullet to the cylinder throats... Calling them chamber throats or something else just causes confusion.

[fredj338]

It requires quite a bit of force to push a bullet 0.001" larger than cyl throat size, more than finger pressure. The only way to know is actually measure the throats with an ID microm or pin gages. What trying to push a bullet thru will tell you is if the throats are too small or over size. If I can't with finger pressure push a bullet say 0.358" thru the throat, then I know the throat is a bit tight. I just don't know how much unless I can actually measure it. One could used sized bullets like pin gages though, up & down 0.001", & get better idea.

[megasupermagnum]

I was trying to determine what Tatume means by Chamber throat and assumed he meant the point inside the cylinder where the chamber tapers from the case diameter to the bullet diameter... In post #14 he indicates there is a chamber throat and another throat further down the cylinder.

Match the bullet to the cylinder throats... Calling them chamber throats or something else just causes confusion.

You know what he meant. If you want to play the grammar game, you should know that what you are calling "chambers" in a revolver cylinder, are in actuality called charge holes, and always have been. By calling them cylinder throats, he is speaking more accurately than you are. Again we all know what everyone meant, but technically the throat in a revolver is the tapered section in the back of the barrel, leading into the rifling.

[usmc0811]

I was trying to determine what Tatume means by Chamber throat and assumed he meant the point inside the cylinder where the chamber tapers from the case diameter to the bullet diameter... In post #14 he indicates there is a chamber throat and another throat further down the cylinder.

Match the bullet to the cylinder throats... Calling them chamber throats or something else just causes confusion.

Yup thats what confused me to. The chamber is different than the cylinder.

[s mac]

And don't forget the cylinder throats need to be uniform to each other as well.

[nawagner]

Remember this: if your cylinder throats (aka chamber throats) are, for example .430 and you boolit is .432, you are sending a .430 boolit down the barrel. nawagner, if you are getting accuracy without any leading you probably have a .451 or .452 barrel. The smaller cylinder throats are actually sizing the boolit to .452 but congrats for no issues, just shoot and enjoy. Your boolits should be a "light" slip fit, OR you can buy a few pin guages for cheap and KNOW exactly what the throats measure. As many, here, are prolly tired of hearing me advocate for the use of pin (or sometimes called plug guages), they solved a lot of accuracy and leading problems for me. Those, and a 1" micrometer to measure slugging the barrel, have been a huge help. Can I guarantee that your barrel wont lead and be rifle accurate? No, but it is a leg up on the starting process for sure.

Yes, my bore is 0.451" and the bullets I use are the Hornady cast 255gr with the knurling. The knurling is pretty light so when seated into the case it actually ends up at 0.452, the perfect size. I also cut my cone to 11 deg which also helped a lot. I guess I should have been more specific about why the 0.454" bullets work so well in my gun, why I think Schreck5 will be ok, and also why I reamed my throats so I could shoot lead bullets without issues to answer USSR's question on why 0.454" bullets.

[DougGuy]

Chamber throat is usually associated with a rifle. Cylinder throat is associated with a revolver because rifles (most of them) don't have cylinders but revolvers do. The chamfer at the end of the chamber is just that, it is transition into the throat. Some call this chamfer the ball seat.

In a perfect world, a revolver boolit would be sized .001" to .002" greater than groove diameter, throat diameter would be .0005" to .001" greater than boolit diameter.

This way, the boolit has a light drag fit in the throats (which is THE correct fitment, not forced through, not falling through loosely) which would hold the boolit concentric to and squared to the centerline of the chamber, it is snug enough in the throat that you won't need to worry about powder gas escaping along side the boolit which would then cause leading in the throat and the barrel, and it will be presented to the bore sized as intended.

If the alloy is soft enough, and the boolit is seated over a suitable charge of propellant to generate enough pressure for the boolit to obturate or "bump up" to fill the throat, this works great too, as the boolit is sealed very nicely in the throat before it even leaves the case all the way. This works very well, and if throats are of consistent diameter, the gun will group well without leading the bore.


And don't forget the cylinder throats need to be uniform to each other as well.

^^^^This, is the most important thing about any revolver cylinder. Uneven throats cause variations in pressure, which causes the gun to recoil differently in the shooter's hands from shot to shot, and this causes it to shoot to different points of impact. The recoil impulse needs to be consistent for every shot to be accurate and group well.

[reddog81]

You know what he meant. If you want to play the grammar game, you should know that what you are calling "chambers" in a revolver cylinder, are in actuality called charge holes, and always have been. By calling them cylinder throats, he is speaking more accurately than you are. Again we all know what everyone meant, but technically the throat in a revolver is the tapered section in the back of the barrel, leading into the rifling.

Whatever... In post #14 he said the "chamber throat" leads into the "throat" and these 2 different throats should have 2 different diameters. I had no idea what he was talking about and neither did the OP.

[Forrest r]

I've always like the bullet to be sized so that they hang in the cylinders when dropped in (muzzle pointed down) when released with holding the base of the bullet and lowering the nose of the bullet into the cylinders until my fingers hit the back of the cylinders, then release the bullet. Doing this allows you to look at the bullets to see if they are all even in the cylinders. If they are not all the chambers of the cylinders are not even. The bullets should be able to push out with a pencil using little to no effort (the weight of the pencil). If a bullet drops thru or takes more force than the other to push out of the chambers of the cylinders, it's not a good thing.

Anyway everyone has their favorite spotted puppy and this is mine/how I test my bullet sizes in the chambers of the cylinders.

[mdi]

I'm gonna get away from this thread. The quarantine/stay at home must be getting to some fellers as this thread has gone from a simple new lead shooter's question to "discussion" of the "proper" terms describing revolver parts and the intricacies of the American language (which differs from the English language if you wanna get picky).

FWIW I knew immediately what the OP meant; the holes in the end of the cylinder (that I call "cylinder throats")...

Have a nice day fellers, brother cast boolit shooters...[smilie=s:

[usmc0811]

I'm gonna get away from this thread. The quarantine/stay at home must be getting to some fellers as this thread has gone from a simple new lead shooter's question to "discussion" of the "proper" terms describing revolver parts and the intricacies of the American language (which differs from the English language if you wanna get picky).

FWIW I knew immediately what the OP meant; the holes in the end of the cylinder (that I call "cylinder throats")...

Have a nice day fellers, brother cast boolit shooters...[smilie=s:

HAHA thats why I have been staying clear also. But thank you everyone who has answered my questions. Keep reloading and keep safe.

[usmc0811]

I've always like the bullet to be sized so that they hang in the cylinders when dropped in (muzzle pointed down) when released with holding the base of the bullet and lowering the nose of the bullet into the cylinders until my fingers hit the back of the cylinders, then release the bullet. Doing this allows you to look at the bullets to see if they are all even in the cylinders. If they are not all the chambers of the cylinders are not even. The bullets should be able to push out with a pencil using little to no effort (the weight of the pencil). If a bullet drops thru or takes more force than the other to push out of the chambers of the cylinders, it's not a good thing.

Anyway everyone has their favorite spotted puppy and this is mine/how I test my bullet sizes in the chambers of the cylinders.

Thanks Forrest. Now run Forrest, Run!!!

[Forrest r]

Thanks Forrest. Now run Forrest, Run!!!

I'd rather walk and get them all