Conical boolits for ROA and other 45 BP revolvers

[Onty]

Hello folks, didn't participate in discussion here for a while. Gearing up to fire first shots from my unfired Ruger Old Army. Hope to do that beginning of July. Presently, I am grounded (Not infected, thank you God!) because of this corona issue, due the general restrictions, possibly for a next couple months.

Anyhow, I would like to get a mold for a conical boolit. Would prefer something like 240-260 grains. Yes, I am aware of discussion regarding Lyman conical and some Minie style boolits several years ago. What is situation with Kaido Ojamaa conicals, is production taken by Lee? I just checked Lee website, couldn't find about Kaido style molds.

Is anything else new on the market regarding molds for muzzle loading revolvers? Thanks!

[Good Cheer]

For the price of a new mold you could shop at Accurate (has some good percussion designs) or for that matter design your own and discuss with Tom there about making it.

I generally use existing Ideal, Lyman or RCBS molds and size them to suit the revolver. But that path has one down falling in that cartridge revolver and pistol molds have lube grooves and extended noses. Both are a waste of volume that could do better service as lead or powder.

Something I want to do some day is get a percussion revolver boolit mold with a flattened elliptical rounded backside. I'm thinking it could be a heavier boolit that would enjoy the accuracy benefits of round ball.

[smithnframe]

The Lee conical works well in both of my ROA's!

[Onty]

How important is HB (hollow base) boolit design for Ruger Old Army, and Remington and Colt system muzzle loading revolvers?

Another question; do you apply lubricant on front face of cylinder with conicals loaded, to prevent chain fire from front side of cylinder?

[Tatume]

How important is HB (hollow base) boolit design for Ruger Old Army, and Remington and Colt system muzzle loading revolvers?

Not very. Mine shoots very well with the Lee bullet.


Another question; do you apply lubricant on front face of cylinder with conicals loaded, to prevent chain fire from front side of cylinder?

Yes, always.

[Tatume]

This is the mold I and some others like.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=452-200-rf&userItemsPerPage=48

[rodwha]

Another question; do you apply lubricant on front face of cylinder with conicals loaded, to prevent chain fire from front side of cylinder?

No, never. You lube the lube grooves of the bullet. Whatever you slather on the face of the cylinder won’t usually last long from what others seem to say.

[Woodnbow]

How important is HB (hollow base) boolit design for Ruger Old Army, and Remington and Colt system muzzle loading revolvers?

Another question; do you apply lubricant on front face of cylinder with conicals loaded, to prevent chain fire from front side of cylinder?
Not important at all.


I never apply lube to the face of the cylinder. It gets blown away by the first shot. I do use a thin cookie made by pouring melted beeswax and olive oil over one or two plies of paper towel. Punch out the cookies and load them over the powder, under the bullet. The lube on the bullet prevents leading, the lube cookie softens fouling.

[Onty]

Hera are 3 proposals, the difference is in nose shape. Please be aware that these boolits are intended for Ruger Old Army:

- Solid base (SB) about 263gr
- Hollow base (HB) about 230gr
- Main dia as cast .454"
- .450" dia reduced base for centering in cylinder
- Meplat .340" dia

https://i.imgur.com/ZBz5Qqo.jpg?1

I am assuming that bullets will be resized and lubed before loading.

Regarding HB, since Minie bullets and WC-HB 38 Special have it, and later one is favorite for bullseye competition, hope that HB should help accuracy on this boolit too.

As for 2 grooves design, from what I found about lead bullet designs, multi-groove design is usually considered as a better design, and gives better accuracy. Grooves are designed so 1,5mm wide O-ring https://www.mcmaster.com/o-rings/oil-resistant-buna-n-o-rings-8/width~1-500mm/ could be used. This will provide a good seal to prevent chain fire, and also help for a better friction between bullet and cylinder, to reduce bullet “walking” due the recoil.

Regarding bullet nose skirt design, shown are 3 versions; round 2° (side angle) secant, double cone and cone/round.

As for bullet nose cone designs, it has 5° included angle to mach forcing cone on Ruger revolvers. Idea is to create a maximum contact surface between bullet and barrel, minimizing bullet deformation in case of slight misalignment between bullet and barrel. I learned this from 44man (thank you Sir), he designed some very accurate boolits for Ruger revolvers using this feature.

I am thinking about Cramer style mold, with two set of pins: hollow base (HB) and solid base (SB). If there is interest for solid base (SB) only, I am open for that possibility also.

I already contacted Miha from MP-MOLDS https://www.mp-molds.com/ , he is open for this idea. Hope he will have some time and let us know what he thinks about these proposals

Your comments and suggestion will be appreciated.

[Chris S]

I love the O-ring idea, but...can you get them cheap enough to make it worth it? I suppose in black powder, you never shoot hundreds of rounds at a time, so maybe the cost wouldn't be so bad.

I have gone to one of the 45LC cylinders for my ROA. Using Trail Boss powder and a Lee 200 grain slug, the gun has new life for me. While not a "true" 45LC in that you can't load it hot, it is still a lot of fun. I've shot Scholfield rounds in it as well. And round ball, and bird shot snake loads. The cylinder just re-kindled my love of the firearm.

Chris

[Nobade]

Check out Eras Gone moulds. The Kerr bullet is for 44 cal revolvers but might give you some ideas for Tom @ Accurate to cut.

[rodwha]

A lead bullet seals well. I’ve shot a bunch of different things out of my ROA and did find one bullet design that would walk out. None of the others have and I use stronger charges (weighed 33 grns of 3F Olde E in the NMA and weighed 38 grns in the ROA). I can’t say why the one often did, maybe it was under sized a hair.

[Onty]

I love the O-ring idea, but...can you get them cheap enough to make it worth it? I suppose in black powder, you never shoot hundreds of rounds at a time, so maybe the cost wouldn't be so bad.

I have gone to one of the 45LC cylinders for my ROA. Using Trail Boss powder and a Lee 200 grain slug, the gun has new life for me. While not a "true" 45LC in that you can't load it hot, it is still a lot of fun. I've shot Scholfield rounds in it as well. And round ball, and bird shot snake loads. The cylinder just re-kindled my love of the firearm.

Chris

McMaster-Carr:
P/N 9262K631
Oil-Resistant Buna-N O-Ring
1.5 mm Wide, 8.5 mm ID, 11.5 mm OD
$6.54 per pack of 100
https://www.mcmaster.com/9262k631

Since McMaster was always considered as a good "one stop shop" for lot of things, but not a bargain one, I guess if you shop around you could get even a better deal.

[megasupermagnum]

Instead of the o ring, why not add a taller rounded driving band in its place?

[mazo kid]

I have only shot .457" round balls in mine. Won't .452" boolits walk out or chain fire?

[rodwha]

I believe the ROA chambers run 0.453”. Ive understood that one wants their conical to drop out at least 0.454”, which is what my next mold will be set at instead of 0.456” as I thought the Lee 220 RN dropped at.

[Walks]

In My Cowboy Shooting Days, there was a Shooter that sold Bear Creek Bullets at most of the Shoots in SoCal.
He used the .452cal 200gr RNFP in His ROA's. I guess the frame/loading lever were strong enough. No wad or extra lube. But then he was only shooting at steel plates of 16" x 16" at 20ft.

[Onty]

Instead of the o ring, why not add a taller rounded driving band in its place?

O-ring is shown just as an option.

From what I found, ROA cylinders have chambers .452" dia. So, idea is to have boolits as cast .454" dia, maybe .455", and size/lube on .001-.002" above chamber dia.

As for taller rounded driving bands you mentioned, here is proposal:

https://i.imgur.com/4VxVlSE.jpg?1

Rebated base .448" dia will remain.

[rodwha]

O-ring is shown just as an option.

From what I found, ROA cylinders have chambers .452" dia. So, idea is to have boolits as cast .454" dia, maybe .455", and size/lube on .001-.002" above chamber dia.

As for taller rounded driving bands you mentioned, here is proposal:

https://i.imgur.com/4VxVlSE.jpg?1

Rebated base .448" dia will remain.

Here’s my 195 grn bullet design:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

Things I’ll be modifying is to lengthen the base that easily inserts into the chamber. Not that I have to be really careful but I’ve wasted a few with them tilting while loading. Now I want more base.

[megasupermagnum]

I have no experience, but it seems to me one of the reason with conicals not shooting well in the old army is not getting them started straight. The same problem muzzleloaders can have. The advantage a muzzleloader has is a chamfered muzzle crown, which the old army has a sharp edged cylinder. My own thinking is that you need something that will self center, which is why a ball shoots so good. The O ring idea could work, but it seems to me that you could do the same thing with the soft lead and save the money. Keep the hollow base, and keep the rebated section, but replace that lube groove with a rounded or tapered drive band. Something as large as .457" should start as easy as a ball since the bearing surface is so small. That should center the back half, but the front half is still loose. I kind of like your tapered nose idea, but I think it would work better if the taper was backwards.

[Onty]

Here’s my 195 grn bullet design:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

Things I’ll be modifying is to lengthen the base that easily inserts into the chamber. Not that I have to be really careful but I’ve wasted a few with them tilting while loading. Now I want more base.
Good design! I just wanted something bit heavier. As for loading, I am not counting on revolver lever. Since we are talking about larger boolit, I think that the only way to press this bigger boolit properly into cylinder is to use some sort of press with stand, on which cylinder could be placed:

259958


I have no experience, but it seems to me one of the reason with conicals not shooting well in the old army is not getting them started straight. The same problem muzzleloaders can have. The advantage a muzzleloader has is a chamfered muzzle crown, which the old army has a sharp edged cylinder. My own thinking is that you need something that will self center, which is why a ball shoots so good. The O ring idea could work, but it seems to me that you could do the same thing with the soft lead and save the money. Keep the hollow base, and keep the rebated section, but replace that lube groove with a rounded or tapered drive band. Something as large as .457" should start as easy as a ball since the bearing surface is so small. That should center the back half, but the front half is still loose. I kind of like your tapered nose idea, but I think it would work better if the taper was backwards.

This is how setup will look when boolit is placed on ROA cylinder prior to pressing into chamber:

https://i.imgur.com/wJBt62p.jpg?1

[rodwha]

Good design! I just wanted something bit heavier. As for loading, I am not counting on revolver lever. Since we are talking about larger boolit, I think that the only way to press this bigger boolit properly into cylinder is to use some sort of press with stand, on which cylinder could be placed:

259958

Yeah, I created it figuring my 2013 NMA was going to have the slower 1:30” twist. Nope. 1:16” like my ROA. I created that design to basically maximize the projectile while keeping it about the right length for the slow twist.

I’m not so sure they’d need a press. For myself it needs to be functional as is. I wouldn’t want to carry all of that with me to be able to shoot, though of course an additional cylinder could always be carried.

I had also created a 245 grn modified version, but didn’t order a mold for it. Seeing what I’ve seen with both pistols a universal bullet could be made to fill the excess in the chambers, though I’ve considered deepening the Ruger’s chambers, which would give me a longer bullet. A single mold for both guns sounds good to me. And I’ve roughly estimated a 210-230 grn bullet.

[Onty]

Yeah, I created it figuring my 2013 NMA was going to have the slower 1:30” twist...
Sorry, not familiar with above. Is that some sort of muzzle loading single shot pistol, or rifle? Bought or built?

[Walks]

That loading device is pretty cool. Much heavier then the one I bought 20 odd yrs ago. Clamped to the top of my guncart, I might start Cowboy Shooting again. With a pair of Remington C&B clones.

[Onty]

If there is no enough interest for one of those ROA proposed designs, I will ask Miha to clip the top of Webley 455 mold for about .150":

https://i.imgur.com/oY0vnel.jpg?1

The only issue is I will have to think about simple tool to make base rebated dia for centering in cylinder. Hope simple bushing with stepped hole should do the trick.

[GregP42]

What about this one?

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982

Greg

[Onty]

What about this one?

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982

Greg

Are you talking about this:

http://www.biglube.com/Images/M120022C1small.jpg
http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=86ed5460-f67c-42de-b95f-01a2d16ba04f

Just 170 grains, very small meplat, no HB. OK for plinking and smaller game. I am looking something that could be used for wild boar if necessary.

[rodwha]

Sorry, not familiar with above. Is that some sort of muzzle loading single shot pistol, or rifle? Bought or built?

Sorry. I was vague. NMA stands for New Model Army, which is the Remington 1858 that is actually an 1863.

https://i.postimg.cc/YSTKDp9s/96772-EB4-1600-4250-9-D0-B-6-F98463-A835-C.jpg (https://postimg.cc/sBPNvC5Y)cdn images (https://postimages.org/)

I got the Pietta 2013 Sheriff’s model on the bottom.

[Onty]

Blessed and happy Easter!

Her is my (rough, unfinished) idea for a loading press:

https://i.imgur.com/u1qBRxI.jpg?1

Using CarrLane toggle clamp CLM-200-PC/CL-200-PC Series (850 lbs) https://www.carrlane.com/en-us/product/toggle-clamps/pushpull-toggle-clamps-plunger-type/pc-design/cl-200-pc-series-850-lbs/clm-200-pc

[Plastikosmd]

Maybe make it so the mechanism can function on a slide to adjust for some different cylinder heights if needed?
It could also be used them to optimize compression equally among cylinders as the mechanism will bottom out once you set the height and load appropriate

[Onty]

Maybe make it so the mechanism can function on a slide to adjust for some different cylinder heights if needed?
It could also be used them to optimize compression equally among cylinders as the mechanism will bottom out once you set the height and load appropriate

With 3 set of holes, 1/2" apart, combined with thread inside plunger, I guess cylinders for all BP revolvers could be covered:

https://i.imgur.com/iYk0Pt1.jpg?1

[drago9900]

You could just put a adjustable stop on the plunger

[GregP42]

260298
No this one, it is 210 gr RNFP

[Valley-Shooter]

Blessed and happy Easter!

Her is my (rough, unfinished) idea for a loading press:

https://i.imgur.com/u1qBRxI.jpg?1

Using CarrLane toggle clamp CLM-200-PC/CL-200-PC Series (850 lbs) https://www.carrlane.com/en-us/product/toggle-clamps/pushpull-toggle-clamps-plunger-type/pc-design/cl-200-pc-series-850-lbs/clm-200-pcSomething like this?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200414/c65794fa1f94f19d1296171f356a06d6.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[Onty]

260298
No this one, it is 210 gr RNFP
That's IMO better. However, as I mentioned, would like to have opportunity to have hollow base (HB).

[owejia]

The Lee 456-220-1R mould is a heeled boolit for the precussion revolvers. Just cast some yesterday out of pure lead [mine weigh about 215 gr] the heel is .450 dia by about 3/16 in lg to start straight in the cylinder and the driving bands forward are .456. They have a little over a 1/8 in flat on top. This was a new mould and after smoking it the bullets literally just fell out, had to drop them on a double up towel to keep from damaging them, really soft, should have no problem shaving the sides as they are seated to seal the chamber. Can fill lube grooves or use a lubed felt wad underneath.

[Onty]

Something like this?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200414/c65794fa1f94f19d1296171f356a06d6.jpg

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Looks good. This design is simpler, better than mine, I like it. Did you put any kind of steel or bronze bushing in aluminum block? What is the clamp size/capacity used?

My suggestion; make more and offer to others, I am confident shooter will like it.

[Valley-Shooter]

Looks good. This design is simpler, better than mine, I like it. Did you put any kind of steel or bronze bushing in aluminum block? What is the clamp size/capacity used?

My suggestion; make more and offer to others, I am confident shooter will like it.I didn't build it. Some guy on another forum did. He manufactured a bunch and sold them there. Failed to deliver on some and disappeared.
There's a bronze bushing in the aluminum block. Also a ball bearing detent to hold it in the up position. It also converts to a wad cutter.
I bought it second hand on the bay.

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