Electrician advice needed

[Bazoo]

I want to run an extention cord 250' from the house to my building. I'll only run one tool at a time plus a light and a box fan. 15 amp saw so say right on 20 amps. I can go without the light and fan if need be. Got a 20 amp circuit in the house I want to plug it into. I'm thinkng I'll buy a spool of Romex. I'm brainstorming it right now.

So, what size of wire would suffice?

Thanks, Bazoo

[jonp]

15 amps = 14/2
20 amps = 12/2
30 amps = 10/2

When in doubt use the next bigger wire. Match the wire size to the circuit breaker. You can use 12/2 wire with a 15 amp breaker but never 14/2 with a 20 amp breaker. If your running that far with a wire I'd drop another size in line from 12 to 10. When in doubt, go bigger. Remember, wire has resistance and will drop voltage over a distance.

Also match the wire and breaker size to the expected load. I did the rooms upstairs with 14/2 but the garage with 12/2

[MUSTANG]

The Bigger the wire, the greater the amperage it can handle. A 12 Gauge wire of 250 Foot would be the smallest size wire to use for a 20 Amp Service. (Just like a shotgun; The smaller the number the larger the wire. ie. 12 gauge is thicker than 14 Gauge, and 10 Gauge is larger than 12 Gauge.)

[375RUGER]

Use the Romex. I'd go with 10 or 8 AWG. With 10 AWG you will drop 8 volts in a run of 250 feet. With 8 AWG you will drop 5 volts. Assuming that you start with a nominal 120 volts this will keep you within the tolerance of most power equipment. So check the name plate voltage and you can operate the tools 90%- 110% or that.
If your starting voltage is only 115 and you drop 8 volts it puts you just outside tolerance for a 120V rated tool.

[djryan13]

I asked my electrician if he could run power to workshop. He recommended running temporary power using SOOW cord to a sub panel on shop. 250’ is a good distance to run Romex. There will be some voltage drop.

[Huskerguy]

I am not an electrician. So there is that. But there are charts readily available on this. I assume there eventually will be electricity in the building. Or if you are rural, won't they put a pole by your building? If you are eventually going to have power to the building, run it underground and it appears you need 4 gauge wire. Again, I am not an electrician, just doing some reading on this.

[Ickisrulz]

Are you considering running 250 feet of Romex across your lawn? Are you going to roll it up every time you are done with it (it's not made for that)? I have used 150 feet of 12 gauge extension cord temporarily (everyday over a year or so) and can tell you it is a pain to run out and then roll up each time.

I would (and have) run a sub-panel off of an appropriately sized breaker in your house to your outbuilding. The proper size wire can be selected from various sources online depending on how many amps you want. The cable is then buried directly or in a conduit. While you're at it, put some PEX in the trench and you'll have water out there too.

[Hossfly]

I would do what Ickisrulz suggest. Did that for all my out buildings. Barn,2 greenhouses. Direct bury wire 12’’ deep or deeper if in colder climate with water. Been buried 20+ years and no problem. Plenty power for future upgrades. I put 60 amp breaker and wire to barn 4 fans lee pot and lights and ptac a/c unit. Green House 40 amp for fans and pump.

[NyFirefighter357]

8/2 UF-B Wire w/ Ground 250ft

[Bazoo]

I don't have an exact plan. I was thinking underground Romex but on top of the lawn for the time being.

Money is tight, so I can't put a service in. I can't buy the wire right now either but I could come a lot closer to the wire. Using this building to make furniture to sell to a guy in town is my income. With the wife being sickly and having a baby, it's best if I can continue to work here instead of getting a job in town. Then of course I don't feel like working unless I can rest as much as needed. Anyways went on a tangent.

I've been using a generator for power at this building. My gen ain't delivering enough to run my tools anymore. They start only with help and bog down easy. Can't run the lights and a tool so I've been using flashlights whenever I have to saw or use the big sander at night.

Thanks for the advice.

[Misery-Whip]

6/3 UF aluminum is direct burial, I put it in conduit anyway. Went 65' and its good for 60 amps. Conduit, wire sub panel set me back $250. And a 24 pack of budweiser and 5gal of diesel for the neighbor to dig the trench, and cover it up.

Try buying the extension cord for that. I would get a 10 guage cord, but price the rental of a ditch witch, and the direct burial wire.

[Ickisrulz]

I don't have an exact plan. I was thinking underground Romex but on top of the lawn for the time being.

Money is tight, so I can't put a service in. I can't buy the wire right now either but I could come a lot closer to the wire. Using this building to make furniture to sell to a guy in town is my income. With the wife being sickly and having a baby, it's best if I can continue to work here instead of getting a job in town. Then of course I don't feel like working unless I can rest as much as needed. Anyways went on a tangent.

I've been using a generator for power at this building. My gen ain't delivering enough to run my tools anymore. They start only with help and bog down easy. Can't run the lights and a tool so I've been using flashlights whenever I have to saw or use the big sander at night.

Thanks for the advice.

I would suggest really thinking about what you want/need. You don't want to find out you need more power and have to upgrade your cables (or dig up your yard again). 20 amps isn't much power if you are running larger tools, lights, air compressor, etc. Are you going to heat/cool your building? That might require even more electrical power. I have a little workshop that is 15x16 where I do all my woodworking. I ran 100 amps into it. I never run out of power.

Yes, feeder cable can get expensive on the long runs.

Working with a flashlight while using power tools sounds dangerous!

[Plate plinker]

Not sure about your budget, but I would buy the appropriate size wire to keep working and then buy the conduit as money is available and bury it. A hot and a neutral of equal size and I believe you can use a smaller ground wire. My last cable purchase was from Wire and Cable your way.

[Mal Paso]

My iPhone app says 20 amps, 250 feet 8ga copper is a 5.75% voltage drop or 6.9 volts. 6ga copper is 3.68%. voltage drop or 4.4 volts if you are starting with 120 volts.

[wv109323]

My thoughts are a bigger generator to run your tools. Also I would use a car battery and battery charger to run led 12v lighting. I would compare cost of gen. To wire.

[Lloyd Smale]

i would go with 8 copper or 6 aluminum for a run that long and make sure you buy direct burial even if your going to run it over the ground. Underground wire is going to hold up not only to direct burial but will hold up to UV from the sun or getting nicked if you don't burry it which would be about insane. I would even check on your local codes. That said throw that advice in the garbage can. My guess a run that long is going to be a violation without a separate feeder panel and up here anyway a 100 amp service and fuse panel to come into. Get you advice from your local electrical inspector not some bullet casters. If someone gets hurt and it isn't up to code you are in for a world of you know what. Electrical codes are there for a reason. The reason is to protect PEOPLE

[Lloyd Smale]

i would go with 8 copper or 6 aluminum for a run that long and make sure you buy direct burial even if your going to run it over the ground. Underground wire is going to hold up not only to direct burial but will hold up to UV from the sun or getting nicked if you don't burry it which would be about insane. I would even check on your local codes. My guess a run that long is going to be a violation without a separate feeder panel and up here anyway a 100 amp service, 100 amp rated wire for that distance and fuse panel to come into. Get you advice from your local electrical inspector not some bullet casters. If someone gets hurt and it isn't up to code you are in for a world of you know what. Electrical codes are there for a reason. The reason is to protect PEOPLE

[DocSavage]

I'm not an electrician so when the OP says an extension cord I think something premade with plugs on both ends. 250' of that doesn't sound like a good idea,that said a generator for tools,12 volt light system from a deep cycle battery and a solar panel to keep the battery charged seems to be the way to go and depending on where he lives the genie could pull double duty for temp power for the house if weather causes power outage.

[Rich/WIS]

Would there be problem running 12-3 wg. That would allow two 20 amp circuits, but not sure if using the same neutral and ground is okay or not, hopefully a real electrician will chime in on that.

[georgerkahn]

Would there be problem running 12-3 wg. That would allow two 20 amp circuits, but not sure if using the same neutral and ground is okay or not, hopefully a real electrician will chime in on that.

Running 12-3 wg is what I ran to my shed, albeit I'm only about 120 feet. I modified a 30amp water-heater disconnect box by replacing its 30A 2-pole circuit breaker with two 15amp breakers. My thought (which has proven to be a good one ;) ) is to use one leg exclusively for lighting -- I have four 40-watt twin florescent fixtures complemented with incandescent sockets each housing a 150watt light bulb. The 2nd breaker is a GFCI one -- deemed smart to have in an open shed -- and that feeds several female duplex receptacles (aka, "outlets") . Although I have never needed it -- nor believe I will in near future -- a "plus" I had in mind is that, with each leg on the other side of neutral, there is 220V from one to the other -- so, in a short-term situation, and just a wee bit of jerry-rigging, I can provide power to something requiring 220VAC.
My thoughts on your challenge include the fact that air conditioners, dehumidifiers, freezers, and fridges do NOT do well on sub-level "low" or challenged power. Even with today's modern technology, the starting amperage on these is quite high! However, for most motors, lights, casting furnaces, and the like -- I'd suggest you be OK, and 12-3 wg copper will suffice.
BEST!
geo

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions.

[Mal Paso]

Would there be problem running 12-3 wg. That would allow two 20 amp circuits, but not sure if using the same neutral and ground is okay or not, hopefully a real electrician will chime in on that.

Line Loss. At that distance the resistance of the wire creates voltage drop and that determines the wire size.

[lightman]

My Southwire voltage drop calculator says you need #4 in order to keep the voltage drop under 3%. If you were not running a tool with a motor I wouldn't worry too much about staying under 3% voltage drop. You might get by with the next smaller size, #6.

I have used the Southwire app a lot and found it to be accurate. Its based on the current NEC tables.

To do this right you are looking at a chunck of money. If finances will allow I would bury some 1/0-3 underground service wire and terminate it in a panel. It depends on how much you plan to use your shop and what else you plan to run.

I just looked back at all of the post and see where you posted that money is tight. But don't skimp too much on wire size or you will damage your tools.

[Ickisrulz]

Would there be problem running 12-3 wg. That would allow two 20 amp circuits, but not sure if using the same neutral and ground is okay or not, hopefully a real electrician will chime in on that.

If you are wiring two circuits, you need a sub-panel.

[Tripplebeards]

I wired my whole garage years ago when I had it built. It’s not very hard to do. You just have to dig a trench 3 feet deep from your outlet box to your garage. Then get a piece of 2 inch PVC pipe and run it from the ground from one side to the other. That way you can pull your wire through it and it doesn’t get wet and if you ever want to change it out to 220 well change the wire you can just pull it through again. Pretty fun project. My garage is still there and it didn’t burn down so Musta did a good job.

[willowbend]

Drag the shed closer to the house.. lol

[bangerjim]

I ran 240vac to my back shop...........almost 250 feet. Put a sub-panel in at the pool pump and ran 8 gauge stranded in 1" sch 40 PVC around the yard to the shop. The a breaker/disconnect box in the shop just for safety and convenience.

Now when I have 4ea) 2x40W tube florescent lights on and start any tool in the shop and the lights don't even flicker!!!!! And these are 20-25A (in-rush) tools.

Go big! It will cost you a lot more up front, but you will never regret a heavy permanent hook-up. Forget the "extension cord" idea.

Remember to either bury or paint the white PVC pipe.....or the sun will rot it over time. Or use the much more costly CPVC gray electrical conduit.

[bangerjim]

Would there be problem running 12-3 wg. That would allow two 20 amp circuits, but not sure if using the same neutral and ground is okay or not, hopefully a real electrician will chime in on that.

If you want to meet code, you should have separate circuits. That's 2 black, two white, and two green. No "doubling up" allowed in most places (even though white and green land in the same place in the panel!)

[djryan13]

Ha! I just got an email from them saying they have reduced copper wire prices due to this CV thing... guessing demand is down with cities halting some construction.

Good time to buy!

Edit: if not burying, you need to use SOOW cord if you can get one big enough to handle that voltage drop.


Not sure about your budget, but I would buy the appropriate size wire to keep working and then buy the conduit as money is available and bury it. A hot and a neutral of equal size and I believe you can use a smaller ground wire. My last cable purchase was from Wire and Cable your way.

[jimlj]

I am an electrician. Reading this thread you have been given a few bits of good advice, but most of the rest is bad or dangerous. The internet is not the place to get electrical advise, especially from people who (mostly) don't know. Just because the garage didn't burn down doesn't mean it was done right or safe. I once worked on a ranch where the owner strung 2 strands of barbed wire overhead to get lights to his barn. The barn didn't burn down but it certainly wasn't right or safe.

I wouldn't recommend a 250' cord. 250' of NM-B romex laying on the ground is a bad choice. UF-B romex is sunlight RESISTANT, but will degrade over a few years time, and it is also a bad choice to lay on the ground. A 250' cord is a pain to roll up, and 250' of romex is plain ignorant to try to roll up.

In order to get good advice, call a competent electrician in your area who can actually see what you are trying to do, and knows the LOCAL and national codes.

One bit of advice I'll give even though I can't look at your job, what ever you decide, go with bigger wire or generator than you think you will ever need because you likely will.

[Lloyd Smale]

with 12 3 your can split your load but you still have the voltage drop to deal with. That and you will need a 220 breaker to power it and they are more expensive. Like I said you wouldn't dump a bunch of powder in a case without looking at loading manual. Your code book is your loading manual. Those wire sizes in it for your purpose are there for good reason. I doubt too if you would go on an electricians fourm and ask advice on running your 270 up past book levels. Not if your sane anyway.

[KenH]

LIke has been said, it's amazing now much bad advice you're getting about size of wire based on amp load. In this case, amps don't matter, voltage drop is the thing to worry about. Any wire size the doesn't drop too much voltage will more than carry required amps. While it would be nice to have only 3% voltage drop, you can "get by" with 5% even with that saw motor. Even 10% would still give you around 110vac if starting with 120 volts at source.

By all means do bury the wire, and do put in PVC pipe. The pipe isn't going to cost much, and won't keep wire dry but will provide some protection to physical damage.

[C.F.Plinker]

It looks like the motor is about a 1 Hp motor based on a full load current of 15 amps. It will probably draw between 90 and 100 amps when it starts. Have someone make the voltage drop calculations for both starting and running. You may need to upsize the conductor in order to get the motor to start with that long (250') of a conductor run. They will probably need the rated voltage, nameplate current, and kva code from the motor nameplate for the calculation.

[Tripplebeards]

Lol... My buddies a licensed electrician and he inspected my work. My uncle is also the fire marshal and came over to inspect before my electrician did. I was told I was at code. The most of local electricians here act like it’s criminal to do your own work. IMO it’s because they’re losing money by people doing it their own work since Menards opened decades ago and selling all the parts to the general public to do so. Guess I should’ve got my license and missed my calling.

I was completely kidding when I said my garage didn’t burn down yet. I do all my own plumbing to...and it’s not a crime.lol


It’s the same speculation when somebody says that because you reload your own ammo you’re to harm yourself and your going to blow up your gun. We all know the answer to that one. A lot of common knowledge and pride in your work goes a long way. You can do anything if you put your mind to it and use common sense.

Just do your research and some homework before you just run a cord out there.

[frkelly74]

That is a long run for sure and will be expensive to do it correctly/ safely. If it were me I would go the portable generator route. You can get them pretty cheap at times and I know that the 5500 watt easily runs a Lee 10 lb pot and a light, or a table saw and a light. They are 240 volt capable and you can do a lot with them with a great deal of flexibility. Point is,you can do what you want to do with a temporary set up and also be prepared for when the power goes off when it storms.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the input. I'll ponder it some more.

[sharps4590]

You better ponder it a lot from most of what you've been told on here. jimlj is right. I retired after 42 years as an electrician with 35 being self employed as a contractor. NEC states that at 150 ft. you go up one wire size for the load. That's the minimum. Using #12 at 250 ft. is a fools errand. It will run some stuff but there will be a price to pay in how hard it is on tools, especially motors. The suggestions for #8 copper or #6 USE-2 Alum. are the best suggestions you've had for wire size and unless you live where the soil is mostly soil or sand, put it in pipe. For direct burial 2 ft. is the NEC requirement and 18 inches deep if in conduit. 12 inches isn't deep enough and is a clear and certain code violation You can legally use an extension and it should be a rubber cord. Price #10 or #8 SOW, SOWW, etc. and the required cord ends and post back if you want to use an extension cord. You can use romex but, you will regret it before long.

As has been mentioned, household electrical wiring isn't difficult nor beyond the ability of homeowners who are fairly handy. Just do it right and if you don't know how to do it correctly...and most don't...call someone who does and have them help you or, call a licensed and insured electrician.

[lightman]

LIke has been said, it's amazing now much bad advice you're getting about size of wire based on amp load. In this case, amps don't matter, voltage drop is the thing to worry about. Any wire size the doesn't drop too much voltage will more than carry required amps. While it would be nice to have only 3% voltage drop, you can "get by" with 5% even with that saw motor. Even 10% would still give you around 110vac if starting with 120 volts at source.

By all means do bury the wire, and do put in PVC pipe. The pipe isn't going to cost much, and won't keep wire dry but will provide some protection to physical damage.


I beg to disagree. The amp load at the end of the run is a major part of the voltage drop formula.

[Big Tom]

Here is an online calculator that tells (estimates) what your voltage be at the end:
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

[Bantou]

Bazoo, don’t you have a friend that is a Lineman? If he has access to a scrap bin he should be able to get you all the wire you need. It might take a while to get 250 of underground wire and you will probably have to splice it a few times but it would be free.


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[KenH]

I beg to disagree. The amp load at the end of the run is a major part of the voltage drop formula.
I didn't explain myself very well. It takes a much larger wire size to prevent excessive voltage drop at 250 ft with 20 amp load than the size of wire to just carry 20 amps.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Drag the shed closer to the house.. lol

I was seriously thinking this same thing. If the Price of a Romex extension cord is more than you can afford right now...and that is lots cheaper than doing it correctly, and our CB Electricians have pointed out it is a serious mistake to run a Romex extension cord. It won't cost much to hook up your truck to the shed, and slide it toward your house...then you can use a proper heavy duty 20' extension cord connected to an outside outlet and then you'll also be much closer to your sickly Wife and Baby.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup ohms law. Lower the voltage and you raise the amperage. amps=watts divided by voltage. If your going to pull close to a 100 amps start up you need (for code here anyway) at least a 1/0 aluminum or #2 copper conductor and a 100 amp service panel. I was a lineman and for a few years we chose between a 4/0 aluminum or 1/0 aluminum underground service. Our guidelines were anything over 100 amp entrance got 4/0 any 100 amp service that was shorter then 200 feet got 1/0. Even a 100 amp longer then 200 got 4/0. That is a 3 wire service with two 120 legs. We ended up dumping the 1/0 and 4/0 and standardized on 3/0 for everything. No way your going to want to run a 100 amp 120 volt load 300 feet long on even #8 wire.

Youll eventually pay the price when your pump burns up. What some guys fail to factor in is load. A one hp motor with no load running (not start up) pulls @750 watts So @6 or 7 amps at a 120 volts. Add the load of pumping water and your amperage more then doubles. Start up voltage doubles not just the motor running amps but the pumping amps. So even if your pump was 4 feed from the main entrance you talking 30-40 amps. Now add to that lightmans correct answer in that amperage does increase with because of voltage drop caused by the increased resistance of small conductor. Yup you an go to menards and buy everything you need and do it yourself. That sure doesn't mean that you should do a substandard job to save a few bucks. The savings come from doing it yourself. If anything I would look at it differently. The money I save could be spent to buy even bigger wire. That way down the line if I ever need more power out there I don't have to start over. If your the type that duct tapes broken things to keep them running or have a drawer full of jb weld and gorilla glue and the when the muffler on your truck went bad you put a used one on the truck and hung it with a coat hanger then you SHOULDNT BE WIRING ANYTHING. Like I said CODES WERE WROTE TO PROTECT YOU AND TO PROTECT SOMEONE THAT BUYS YOUR PROPERTY 10 YEARS FROM NOW THAT DOESNT UNDERSTAND ELECTRICITY. If your getting your advice from a cast bullet fourm then hopefully you live close to the firehouse and hospital. Kind of like going to a frat house party and asking for loading advice! Electricity can KILL YOU! DONT TAKE MY ADVICE OR ANYONE ELSE HERE. ASK YOUR INSPECTOR WHAT SIZED CONDUCTOR IS CODE!! Then if anything don't go smaller go bigger!
I beg to disagree. The amp load at the end of the run is a major part of the voltage drop formula.

[sharps4590]

For a 100 amp service Lloyd is correct. For a 20 amp load #8 THWN or #6 USE-2 is adequate.

The other thing no one has mentioned is, if you run the service and make it permanent, by NEC you are required to either re-establish a ground at the new location or run a separate ground with the service conductors. Basically you're splitting the ground and neutral, providing a complete and separate path for fault current.

[Petrol & Powder]

All of the obvious factors have been pointed out on this thread.
Voltage drop, Cost of cable, How will the wire be installed (buried? , laid on the ground temporarily? ) How often do you need it? (Will a generator be more useful? cheaper?) Can you move the shed ? (The winner for thinking outside the box BTW !)

How about an inverter? Could a vehicle be driven to the shed and used for temporary power?

Lots of good thinking here.

[metricmonkeywrench]

Bazoo, here are my only 2 thoughts, I agree with most, call a pro and see how much you can offset the cost by digging in your own conduit and such things.

Things to think of if not properly installed (no matter who):

If anything goes wrong, electrocution, fire and so on the insurance company will find you at fault and likely not cover damages or injuries

Also, when the time enviably arrives and you have to leave the house and you decide to sell anything incorrectly installed will be your responsibility to remove/replace/repair.

I grew up under the tutelage of a journeyman lineman and don't doubt my capability, but these two things keep me from doing any major repairs myself.

The same thought process holds true for natural gas/LP.

[.45Cole]

Start watching CL and FB for people selling wire. I go to auctions all the time too, best place to get construction materials and it seems that all hte business auctions have wire for sale. Renting a machine is the best bet. Sometimes it's hard but you have to come up with the cash rather than do it incorrectly. How far out of town do you live?

[Petrol & Powder]

Doing work yourself does not automatically equate to voiding insurance policies. Furthermore, having work completed by a licensed professional doesn't guarantee high quality either. I've seen plenty of shoddy work completed by "professionals".

As for selling something that isn't up to code, that is up to the buyer & seller. I've been involved with "as is" transactions as both the buyer and seller.
That being said, dangerous construction is irresponsible. Not because of insurance or future sales, but because life, limb and property shouldn't be put at risk to save a penny.

[blackthorn]

I know almost nothing about electricity, even though I did do the basic wiring install in my loading shed. Then I hired an electrician to check my work and complete the install. My reason for adding to this thread is to suggest that when you are digging a trench for the wire, you add room for a telephone line. I did that for my big shop but not for the loading shed and I regret that.

[sharps4590]

but because life, limb and property shouldn't be put at risk to save a penny.

Petrol, I couldn't agree more with your entire post but this, the above, stuck out. I wish that simple concept could be pounded into the skull of every jack leg cheapskate who hooks up his generator through the dryer receptacle...or any other 240V outlet. I'm probably stepping on some toes and if so, so what. If I am, you're wrong and it is impossible to justify especially with so many economical lock out means available today. My Dad was also a lineman and had someone back fed a distribution system and killed him....I couldn't be responsible for what I might have done.

[Duckiller]

If you are doing serious wood working you NEED 220 volts. Got a table saw when my father-in-law passed many years ago. It had a 110/220 1 hp motor. Had 110 in garage so that is how I used it. About 5 years ago I got a 200 amp panel installed so I could have central air. At that time I had the electrician install a 220 volt circuit in the garage. Converted the table saw to 220 and bought a used 220 volt 8" joiner. The table saw cuts extremely nice . No strain and the cerf is very smooth. Once the government get COVID-19 under control I intend to move to the greater Portland area. New place will have a fairly large workshop. New place may have a shop or I will have it built. It will have 220 power for several tools. It may cost a bit more at first but it will be more than worth it on my first project and a bonus for all subsequent projects.

[jessdigs]

It would be a lot safer underground in a conduit.
But I'm an equipment operator so stuff like that is easy for me. Not so much for the average Joe.


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[Mal Paso]

I know almost nothing about electricity, even though I did do the basic wiring install in my loading shed. Then I hired an electrician to check my work and complete the install. My reason for adding to this thread is to suggest that when you are digging a trench for the wire, you add room for a telephone line. I did that for my big shop but not for the loading shed and I regret that.

Always install extra conduit, the ditch is expensive, conduit is cheap. But for phone? Where can you buy a decent corded phone? You have to buy cordless to get any quality at all and cordless reaches my shop just fine. All those millions of miles of CAT Whatever phone line installed in new houses to meet building code and everybody went Cell, WiFi, cordless, WIRELESS. LOL

[Finster101]

Always install extra conduit, the ditch is expensive, conduit is cheap. But for phone? Where can you buy a decent corded phone? You have to buy cordless to get any quality at all and cordless reaches my shop just fine. All those millions of miles of CAT Whatever phone line installed in new houses to meet building code and everybody went Cell, WiFi, cordless, WIRELESS. LOL

My thoughts too. A cat6 cable would be worthwhile though.

[Bantou]

Petrol, I couldn't agree more with your entire post but this, the above, stuck out. I wish that simple concept could be pounded into the skull of every jack leg cheapskate who hooks up his generator through the dryer receptacle...or any other 240V outlet. I'm probably stepping on some toes and if so, so what. If I am, you're wrong and it is impossible to justify especially with so many economical lock out means available today. My Dad was also a lineman and had someone back fed a distribution system and killed him....I couldn't be responsible for what I might have done.

This so many times over. One of my biggest fears on storm is somebody hooking up a generator wrong and back feeding the line. Most people don’t realize that a transformer works both ways. It will step primary voltage (what’s on the line) down to secondary voltage (what you use in your house/shop/store etc) but it will also step secondary voltage up to primary. As an example, a large part of my system is 14,400 volts. Most of our secondary voltage is 120/240 volts. If you plug a 120/240 volt generator into your house and that electricity makes it back to a transformer, you just put 14,400 volts back on a line that was supposed to be dead.


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[gwpercle]

I know almost nothing about electricity, even though I did do the basic wiring install in my loading shed. Then I hired an electrician to check my work and complete the install. My reason for adding to this thread is to suggest that when you are digging a trench for the wire, you add room for a telephone line. I did that for my big shop but not for the loading shed and I regret that.

Do telephone land lines lines still exist ... the telephone co. converted my land line phone into a wireless system about 5 years ago...after 47 years our true land line went wireless .
You may not need to dig a trench and lay a line in it...check with the local phone co. first .
Gary

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Do telephone land lines lines still exist ... the telephone co. converted my land line phone into a wireless system about 5 years ago...after 47 years our true land line went wireless .
You may not need to dig a trench and lay a line in it...check with the local phone co. first .
Gary

Three years ago, the City started to rebuild the roads and utilities in my neighborhood. The plan is to put everything underground that was above ground. It took the Phone Co (CenturyLink) a while, but they finally bored a new wire (landline) to my house late last fall. I never liked where the old phone wire box was, so I had them mount a new box in a new location...it was quite the ordeal. Among other things, they had to install a new ground post, since the one for the house wasn't nearby.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup another important thing not to cheap out on is making sure your adequately grounded. we are required in our county to have two ground rods driven at least 10 feet apart at any building entrance and wired with at least 6 solid copper. These are not codes (laws) to make it more expensive for you. There there to save your life if something goes wrong.
For a 100 amp service Lloyd is correct. For a 20 amp load #8 THWN or #6 USE-2 is adequate.

The other thing no one has mentioned is, if you run the service and make it permanent, by NEC you are required to either re-establish a ground at the new location or run a separate ground with the service conductors. Basically you're splitting the ground and neutral, providing a complete and separate path for fault current.

[WRideout]

Some larger cities (such as Pittsburgh) have stores that sell usable surplus or salvaged construction materials. Some of them are called railroad salvage, among other names. It might be worth looking there for wire and etc.

Wayne

[coastie 1947]

Electricity is not a "hobby" thing...
Consult with YOUR LOCAL electrical inspector in regards to your questions, to get the REAL answers you need.
They are there to assist you ,not hamper you, it is their job.
You may want to check with an actual Electrician for proper install (after checking with inspector)if it is beyond your your ability to do the actual install.
This will preclude the possibility of injury/destruction and/or death from a "home-owner mod install".
I have over fifty(50) years of experience as an electrician, have all my fingers and have seen some truly UNSAFE installs.
Good Luck with your project, be safe!

[Handloader109]

It took 51 posts to tell the guy at least some of what he needs. good advice in some posts, but it varied a lot.

if you are serious about using shed to make money to make and sells stuff, then work to do more than get by.
forget any extension cords.
forget laying wire on ground. (you will run over it, or if trying to roll it up, break the wire.l
Run a 220v circuit to the shed.

bury it.

10 gauge is minimum, 8 gauge would be great.
This gives you way less voltage drop and way more amperage available in the shed.
yes you need 220 volt breaker at house, and a subpanel in shop. but subpanel can be small (even though the smaller ones can cost as much as large box)

I would check with an local salvage or re stores as mine local sometimes has good new stuff or good new for cheap.

but get some help from an electrician not just from us here.


Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[lightman]

It took 51 posts to tell the guy at least some of what he needs. good advice in some posts, but it varied a lot.

if you are serious about using shed to make money to make and sells stuff, then work to do more than get by.
forget any extension cords.
forget laying wire on ground. (you will run over it, or if trying to roll it up, break the wire.l
Run a 220v circuit to the shed.

bury it.

10 gauge is minimum, 8 gauge would be great.
This gives you way less voltage drop and way more amperage available in the shed.
yes you need 220 volt breaker at house, and a subpanel in shop. but subpanel can be small (even though the smaller ones can cost as much as large box)

I would check with an local salvage or re stores as mine local sometimes has good new stuff or good new for cheap.

but get some help from an electrician not just from us here.


Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

This is mostly good advice except for the suggestion for wire size. My calculations show that #10 is not big enough. I don't mean to argue or anything but I've done a lot of this type work. I am a retired Lineman and I was also a Licensed Master Electrician and ran a sideline business.

My calculations show that 15 amps at 250 feet needs #6 copper to stay under 3% voltage drop. 3% is whats recommended. Adding 5 amps bumps it up to #4. It sounds like overkill but numbers seldom lie.

If it was mine I would put a sub panel in the shop and run some 1/0-3 Underground Service Entrance cable to it. Depending on the soil type I might or might not put it in conduit.

This is more expensive that the OP wants but motors fail prematurely when run on low voltage.

Good Luck with whatever you do.

[Iron369]

I’m an electrician. There’s a lot of misguided information in this post. May people that aren’t electricians talking about what they have or would do. Just like asking a reloading question on here, I’d say read the book. NEC. Puts out a code book to tell you the minimum requirements for your installation. Code books are not how-to books, but they are how-not-to-die books. After getting the minimum requirements, call the inspectors office and utilities to make sure you meet their requirements. Pull a homeowners permit. Get the inspections. There’s a reason electricians are not cheap.

[Petrol & Powder]

Around here if you get a permit for a job, you can bet your last dollar that "improvement" will be reflected in EVERY future real estate tax bill for that property, forever.

The job can be done correctly and safety without a licensed electrician being involved.
When I install new brakes on a vehicle, I don't worry about the resale value of the car because a non-licensed mechanic worked on it.
When I repair plumbing in my house I don't fret about an insurance company failing to pay a potential future claim.
When I perform electrical work I don't hire an electrician to perform work I can safety perform myself.

If I lack the skills and knowledge needed I will hire someone with those skills and knowledge. If you don't know your limitations, then you probably should hire someone that can do the job. If you are within your skills and knowledge - you'll be fine.

And BTW, this is a forum in which people play with molten lead, smokeless powder, black powder, pressures over 50K psi, projectiles moving at thousands of feet per second and a few other things that terrify some folks.

[frkelly74]

I am chuckling over that last post there /\ /\ /\. We as a group are nothing if not DO IT YOURSELFERS! Molten metal and high explosives. What is a few hundred volts to us?

[Bazoo]

Thanks for all the replies.

I have the ability to wire in boxes and such. I just don't know about wire size and loads for a run like this.

I had a former electrician acquaintance look at it once and give me a list of what was needed to do it the right way. Folks like that don't want to offer advice on rigging stuff. He did say the building will not pass code if they choose to push it as it's too close to an overhead power line. We didn't build it, but I would rather not have it inspected for fear they would make us tear it down. He said they probably wouldn't because it's been here for so long. Most likely it wasn't permitted when they built it. We've owned it over 20 years. It's a 20X22 approx shed.

I am reluctant to sink any money into it as we might not keep the property when mom passes away. One reason I'm thinking of replacing my gen with a bigger one. Got to wait till taxes come in though before I do anything.

The building is my only income. Making furniture for a guy in town.