Weekend with daughter, 221 Fireball and cast boolits. And a little humor.

[mattw]

I love my 221 Fireball, it is a 23" full bull McGowan SS barrel on a 40XBR action with Jewell 1.5 oz trigger and B&L 4000 series 6.5x24 scope. I have owned this gun for 20 or so years and it is my goto when I need to shoot a good group. Alex has began to understand my love of this rifle as well. Last fall she asked why we don't cast for my bench guns, I explained the difference between match grade and cast bullets and told her what it would take to basically come up with match grade cast bullets... to my surprise she was interested in the effort. So, I acquired a couple of moulds and we were all set.

The mould we are working with is the NOE-55-FN 3C, it drops right around 60 grains with 94-3-3 alloy. Gas checked and PC'ed it produces groups in 61.4 - 61.5 and 61.6 - 61.7 in the largest numbers. Until I can up production of good bullets we are working with .2gr. weight groups. The bullets are sized and checked, PC'ed and sized again to .2251'ish.

I made several hundred and culled to 213 bullets. Following is the distribution:
61.3gr & down = 18
61.4 - 61.5 = 29
61.6 - 61.7 = 59
61.8 - 61.9 = 80
62.0 - 62.1 = 20
62.2 & up = 7

I have been working with the 61.8 - 61.9 grain range. If I could get 1000 made, I would sort by .1 grains and make the groups even better.

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Now this is learning for me as well, as I said before my bench guns have never seen cast bullets!
We started with 12.5 grains of 2400. I expanded slightly with an NOE expander and they seated very well. The first 3 groups were not good, 2+ inches at 100 yards, with the last group falling in at about 1.5 inches. The chronograph told me the first 2 groups had high extreme spreads of around 110 fps and SD of around 37... no wonder they would not shoot. Back to the drawing board, the velocity was a little low in the low 2500's. I bumped up to 12.7 grains and then it dawned on me that I really needed a mild crimp, never needed with jacketed bullets. Back out back and she fired another group. This rifle loves 2 foulers before your first group, unless the barrel is already warm.

She fired her first fouler and could not find it on the target, she was getting concerned because that rifle never misses paper. I could see what happened but it took her a while to figure out... That she had commited CHRONOCIDE!

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So, good excuse for a new chronograph that now has bluetooth and will upload results for processing later! :) Midway had the ProChrono DLX on sale for a good price, ordered within 10 minutes, could not imagine not having one on hand.

Her last group of the day is below. Showing 1 fouler, 4 in one hole and she rushed the last one and pulled it down and out. The barrel after 30 shots cleaned with 4 wet patches with 50/50 kroil and ProShot and 1 dry patch. I think it came cleaner than when shooting jacketed bullets. I was worried about lead in that barrel. I even broke out brand new weighed brass for this event, so they were being fireformed to boot. My brass is all 1 weight per box of 50 and I have 7 or 8 boxes that all weigh the same with 3 foulers per box.

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Next we will work with the Lyman 225462 in the Fireball and likely will make the same efforts with my 222 Mag. benchgun.

[onelight]

What a great post !
Bless her heart nailed her first crono.:-D

[charlie b]

Nice work!

Makes me want to use cast in my .223 bolt gun. :) Nice shooting too.

I had not thought of crimp before either. Makes me think I should try it, especially in the gallery loads for the .308.

[mattw]

Charlie, a light crimp made all the difference in the load. It is so against my nature to crimp rounds for my bench guns, but would not think twice about crimping 22 TCM cast or 30-30 cast. The SD and ES fell immediately and the groups really tightened up. She is becoming a good shot behind a bench gun, learning breath control, trigger feel (can now put her finger on a 1.5oz trigger with out setting it off, wind doping and learning to be repetitious.

[Texas by God]

You have convinced me to try crimping my next 22-250 cast loads. By the way, does your Barrel have a 14-inch twist?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[mattw]

My barrel is a 14 twist. It was made and fitted by Harry McGowen and was designed for 52-55 grain bullets. The 1400 match is hands down the best bullet in this gun, only found 1 60gr. that would shoot and that is the Sierra 60gr. softpoint flat base, and it is not great. I was not sure what this design would actually be able to do in this gun, I was really shocked. Many 60gr. bullets hit sideways at 100 yards. I also own a McGowen barreled 222 Mag that is an amazing tack driver. He also barreled a 40XBR for me in 6mmx284, 30 inch full bull tube on that one. That rifle netted me a prairie dog and 865 yards, confirmed by my spotter and laser range finder to a target held at hit point. 1 shot to dope the wind and one shot to kill.

Harry was a very interesting fella, opinionated, highly skilled and worked at his own pace. I consider myself very fortunate to own several examples of his work. He lived about 1.5 hours from my home, saw him fairly often. He would take my example round and cut the chamber to match that round to a T, seated just into the lands and they are dead on.

[rking22]

Looks interesting, and wonderful that she wanted the challenge! She will do quite well in life. You know you really should mount the crony for her, after all it was her first! Could have a presentation ceremony and everything:)

[charlie b]

Thanks Matt. I had considered crimping my subsonic .308 loads so may try it on my regular cast loads too.

[mattw]

Gotta throw out an update. I picked up the ProChrono DLX at Midway, shipping was quick and the price was really good.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020438152?pid=988434

The best part... it talks bluetooth and makes some very good reports. You can get a basic text summary, a full csv or this wonderful summary. I put all of my chrono data in a google sheet, I make a caliber specific page and have sub-sheets for each bullet weight cast and jacketed.
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[303Guy]

I've been interested in the 221 ever since a got my hornet and found the chamber oversize and rough (presumably from cleaning out rust damage). It would fit the action.

A curious observation I made after my brand new unused die set disappeared and I had to find another way to load for the oversize chamber. Instead of sizing the neck, I instead 'glued' the bullet in place with molten 'waxy-lube'. I then switched to a paper hand towel cup soaked in waxy-lube after bullet seating. This held the bullet concentrically. This arrangement held the bullet firmly enough to not move in the magazine but with some effort could be pulled out by finger. Accuracy is very good.

But the curious thing is that this gun with this loading method shoots Hornady 63gr spire points very accurately as far as one can shoot. This with a 16 twist.

I know want an even smaller and lighter gun that at least equals the hornet performance in a shorter barrel so the 221 comes to mind. My hornet performance is 2740fps with 55gr bullets and 2680 fps with 63gr bullets in its 24 inch barrel. The 221 will do that in a 15 inch barrel I'm sure. With a suppressor.

[dimaprok]

Very interesting. I have 221 FB Remington 700 and it's very accurate with jacketed bullets. I've tried cast bullets, I used load data from magazine article I found online. I've tried Lee 55gr gas checked and powder coated sized to .224 since that's what manual said (later I learned that .225 or bigger is prefered). I though crimping was a no-no for cast bullets. Anyway my results were horrible, I couldn't get all shots on paper at 50 yards. Another time I setup target at 30 yards and got a few inch group with 4198, I kind of gave up since jacketed bulk is very cheap, I have actually a bunch that I cast one day (like 600) to test gas checks, I want to give it another shot. My question is, I noticed in the pictures powder coat looks nice, did you shake and transfer them with tweezers? It's bad enough when I tried with 30 cal I can't picture doing this for 22! One accidental bump and they all fall! I always wondered if could get away with BLL or 45-45-10 tumble lube, I don't mind keeping velocity down if I can avoid leading and simplify lubing.

[mattw]

I am going for factory velocity. I shake and bake, transfer with tweezers and stand the up one at a time. I am going for match grade results in a match grade rifle, thus each bullet is weighed and sorted. The crimp is very light and is only there for 2 reasons, allow the brass into a match chamber and to provide a more uniform pressure required before the bullet leaves the case. My results are still better with Berger match 52's or Sierra match 52 or 53 grain bullets.

[dimaprok]

I just got a sample of these bullets and eager to load them, they are powder coated and I put on my own 22 gas check on it. Lapua brass, remaining Rem 7 1/2 primers and the rest what I have is CCI 400. Have 2400 powder. You mentioned 12.7gr load, was that the load that got 4 in one hole in pic you posted? Is that what you settled on? Obviously I'll do my load development just want a good starting point. Also are you seating in to the lands? Do you have report on 62gr bullet like one you posted above? Mine are about 60.4gr +/- .1gr If could get even 1.5 MOA I'll be happy. My experience with Lee 55gr was extremely horrible. I know the problem is not the gun, it shoots jacketed very well and you confirmed 1:14 twist works so I have hopes. I suspect in my earlier testing sizing .224 could have been a problem. I expanded my neck with NOE .222 plug, it steps up to .226 but I didn't go there, I experienced no shaving while sitting but I chamfered the neck. I was thinking that .222 might be too small as there is normally a spring back (shrink) and to make my own plug in .223. What do you think? For now I am just going to seat 1.830" as max length.

[Greg S]

Following with interest. I have a 221 and a hornet and need to start loading for the 221.

[mattw]

What do I think... that is a dangerous question! First off... Lapua brass, I am jealous. I never could get my hands on true match brass. I bought 3k cases years ago and prepped every one of them, then weight sorted the cases to the level of .1 grains. Sold the ends of the bell curve and kept the brass by the tenth.

I have never used anything but 7 1/2 primers, early on others were just not as tight. At one point, I shot twice a week and could turn in page after page of 1 hole groups. Now, between my eyes, age and less time to shoot most are 4 in 1 out. That bullet design allows for the bullet to be seated with the front driving band just kissing the lands, can feel it in the bolt at the end of the stroke, and that seems to be the most accurate way to shoot them.

12.7 grains of 2500 averaged 2489 across 20 shots. The standard deviation was 41 FPS, including cold barrel fouler group. My OAL was 1.831", bullets were .2252 to start with and I expand with an NOE plug as well but I do use both steps. I would suggest using both steps with your gun as well and a very slight crimp. My plug is .2231x.2260.

I have tried other cast designs, including the Lyman 225438 (44gr RN), Lyman 225462 (57gr RN) and NOE 225-45-WFN. The 225462 is a Guy Loverin design and is nearly driving band to the formed nose. This shot the worst of any of them. I suspect that the large bearing surface has a lot to do with that, it does not get stable and once in a while hits the target sideways. If I drop the velocity some it gets better. I suspect that may be what is going on with the Lee, honestly I do not buy Lee moulds unless they have something I want that nobody else offers. I think the NATO (small diameter nose) design is the key.

I have used 4227, H110 Data (commercial powder 12% faster), Unique, 4198, HS7 and a few others in the gun over the years. 2400 has just held the edge in the heavier bullets. I might have 15 to 17 thousand rounds thru this gun in the last 20 years. The throat is still in very good condition and it bore scopes well. My default Sierra 1400 loads are still very 1 hole able at this time. As I said, 23" full bull, if I need to someday I can set the barrel back and rechamber it and will not hurt the performance at all. Going from .2 grain weight groups to .1 grain really made an improvement in the groups as well. It has been a lot of work this summer, but I was tired of hearing that cast can't be as accurate. I will likely try this with my 222 Mag next year, I suspect it will be more of a challenge, the 221 FB is a very forgiving and docile caliber... the 222 Mag, not so much.

[charlie b]

Thanks for the description of your trials and especially errors. Seems to be common for some barrels to only like certain bullets, especially at the accuracy level you pursue.

[35remington]

Since accuracy is the goal, I would throttle down to the 1800-2000 fps range and give that a go.

[mattw]

I have gone low, the heavy cast does not work. I have laddered unique and other faster powders. I will not down load h110 or 4227 and 2400 did not work well downloaded. Thousands of rounds through it and it just does not want to go slow, cast or jacketed. Been working with 45 grain cast gc bullets, never got wfn's to work from 1100 to 2650 fps. Best managed 1.5 inches excluding 1 flyer each. She is pretty touchy. My xp100 is much more forgiving but never as tight on the best end.

[35remington]

I think you may be running into stability problems with the slow twist. Try something shorter like the 225415 at the 1800-2000 fps range. As is I think you are running into pressure/velocity limitations of cast in the 2600 fps range. Ultimately this will be an accuracy limitation as well.

Sort of a fine line to walk along. I have a 1-14 K Hornet and am well aware of its dislike for the longer bullets at 2000 fps and below. The 225415 despite the propaganda actually casts around 50 grains and is notably shorter than most of the 55 grain designs.

I have no fears downloading 4227 but would agree doing so with H110 or 296 is chancy.

The fast pistol/shotgun powders are generally a waste of time except with short bullets and low velocity.

[mattw]

Been on the lookout for the 225415, one of the few 22's I do not have.

[35remington]

If you read the Fouling Shot and some of the member’s tribulations with cast in the 22’s there may be something of interest in there. Generally the findings were 22’s were hard to shoot truly small aggregates with, and......(gasp) segregating bullets by weight is overrated as an accuracy aid.

If one keeps an open mind there is much of interest. This was match shooting, so this was an accuracy obsession by any standard.

[mattw]

I spent the first few weeks not weight sorting bullets, the results were ok, but it was clear that they could get better. I am very serious about bullet inspection and prep, visual inspection for sharp edges, no holes or pits and base inspection for proper sprue cuts. I tend to be anal with any cast bullet I make, even blaster pistol ammo as the best bullets will always provide the best possible outcome. I would disagree with the statement that weight sorting is not needed. I would also agree that small aggregates with cast are very difficult compared to a jacketed match grade bullet. Weight sorting resulted in more shots cutting and more in one hole. So far, we have tested 2 different colors of PC, one provides a very thin coat and one is a thicker coat, we are also comparing copper to aluminum gas checks. We have concentrated our efforts on the NATO style NOE 60 grain bullet, although we have worked with others this summer as well. The tiny groups come from a fairly well defined velocity window that when re-created with a different powder seems to hold true unless the burn rate is significantly different. We work wide and fine step ladders. Often 2 tenths and the work possibles in a 1 tenth window in various weather. We have worked with H110 Data powder, 296, 4227, Unique, BL-C(2) and 2015br and 2400. 2400 has provided the most reliable results so far. 2015br has been very good to us as well, it is the best I have found for the Sierra 1400. Until I started to PC bullets, I never even considered cast in a bench rifle. I did not want to take a chance of leading up the bore or the throat in one of my guns. Shooting PC in 22 TCM warmed me up to the idea that the 221 FB might actually work. I think life would have been easier if we had been working with something in 30 caliber, I suspect the 6mm is just as unforgiving as 22 caliber in regards to cast bullets.

After 30+ years of casting and bench shooting as a hobby, I have learned a lot and it seems that I learn more each trip out. I love to learn. My mentor many years ago taught me that conventional wisdom is just that and it should always be questioned. The Fouling Shot is an amazing source, I have met Veral Smith a couple of times and got to pick his brain as well. This hobby has so many sages and so many more that think they are. I was also blessed to learn many of the finer points of bench work from a gent that was in his 70's and 80's when I met him. He had suffered a stroke and really only had one side that worked and he still shot tight 1 hole groups, we helped him set up, set targets and watched in amazement as target after target rolled off full of 1 hole groups. That gentleman created my obsession with the 221 Fireball and Harry McGowan. I was given his 222 Mag 40XBR after his passing by his wife. I will always have the rifle in my safe. I have not shot in competition since the birth of my oldest daughter, I really do not miss the pressures. Shooting with her and teaching her what I can about this discipline has been very rewarding. She helps make the bullets and the ammo that we shoot and is learning about the finer points of bullet fit, proper seating and many of the tiny nuances that I did not learn until I was in my 30's. She so wants to shoot a bench match, she understands that she still does not have a great chance of winning or even placing, but she wants to feel the pressure and meet the people. Unfortunately, the sport is kinda dead in east central IL and the ISRA range is 2 hours away and I just can't afford it. When I was learning, most of the major ranges had matches and events.

[dimaprok]

I am lucky to own 500 pcs of Lapua brass. I purchased the first 100 when it was on sale for $70, this stuff is NOT cheap, but there was NO other brass available besides Norma which cost more. Lapua brass is work of art, each piece is like a fine jewelry to me. The other 400 pcs I won with my friend during xmas sweepstakes at Powder Valley and I traded him reloaded 600 rounds of .223 for 200 pcs of brass LOL. I actually had a choice to pick any brass and looking back I should have got some 223 and 308.

I also converted my own from LC as well as I traded with vendor (Matt) here in the past for his converted brass. He had a unique way of doing it, using progressive press and 2 rem jet forming dies (that formed Rem Jet brass from 357) in stages on progressive he said he lost no brass, while I was just using Lee FL die and lost 25-30% of the brass to splits even though I annealed the brass. I used my mini lathe to turn the necks which I believe was better method but slower. Matt used reamer to ream the necks which was faster. I believe turning necks is more superior because the brass necks are tapered and uneven too, by turning you end up removing the taper and if it's uneven on one side it cleans it up. Reaming doesn't accomplish that. If only Starline could produce the brass I wouldn't have to convert it but I have plenty of brass now.

I can't wrap my head around how is it possible to achieve one hole groups at 100 yards with such high standard deviation for 41fps!

I measured my NOE plug, it's .2225 first stage and .2264 2nd stage. I used lee paste lube and qtip to lube inside the neck before I expand, I found that expanding was smooth and effortless and seating the bullet was the same, I didn't go up to 2nd stage because I saw no reason to expand, there was no lead or PC shaving of any kind occuring, I am using RCBS gold match die to seat, it has a sliding bushing inside that aligns the bullet straight to the neck and now I don't need to apply Lee FCD afterwards. Also I purchased Redding neck sizer but realized unfortunately it still requires neck lube, the dry Redding lube I need to order is long overdue. Lee doesn't make neck collet sizer for 221FB but I did convert one from .223 on the lathe and it works! I am thinking if the casting bullet is success I can make the new center rod for Lee collet neck sizer measuring .223" maybe even .224 so I won't have to expand the necks with NOE anymore, just neck size them and good to go. I found that chamfering with VLD chamfer is the secret to avoid lead shaving.

I have some Shooter's World Blackout powder I want to try, it's similar to 1680 and lists the load data for Hornet, so it should work for 221 FB as well.

[mattw]

I have converted brass, but not for the fireball. That SD was across several shooting sessions in weather ranging from low 60's to low 90's. The separate sessions do not have that SD. That is 4 sessions of 10 shots each. Just a study of the effects of temperature on my load. I currently use Redding Competition pro dies in FL, non bushed neck and micrometer seater. When I started I was using RCBS dies for the old girl. I lube the inside of the necks with dry graphite that is mixed in with number 7 shot, each case goes in for a quick twist and then sizing. I use the RCBS competition dies for 222 mag, 223 and 30/06 but never found that die for 221 FB. the 222/223 die is to long to work with the 221 FB. Yes the long chamfer tool is a god send. I really like the idea of a custom expander ball/rod, but I can't make such a beast so the NOE will have to do. My method has not resulted in any shaving of lead, even with plain base bullets. It really is a fine / fun caliber to chase.

I recently picked up CFE Pistol and may venture down that road with the Fireball. It may be a bit fast, but i also have recently picked up some CFE223 and will likely try it. May not get this done this year as cool and windy is about to become our norm.

[dimaprok]

That's a nice tip about #7 shot and dry graphite. I actually have a 16oz of powdered dry graphite I ordered off amazon back when I was starting to reload someone on youtube said it's a good way to run this through a powder measure to "season" it.... well it made a huge mess out of it but I still got the graphite and I got some some lead shot, not sure which number but it's small enough. Does Redding use the same dry graphite in their refill pucks? I was about to order it.

The RCBS die I use is Gold Medal even though it's very similar to competition for some reason the competition has more negative feedback on MidwayUSA, people claim it produces too much run out. This is what I got: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011638043 It requires extended shellholder, so it sounds like this is all you need to use it with your competition die.
I ordered mine specifically for 221 FB and it was on sale. I used it to load .223 as well, even on progressive Hornady press but the fit is very close, had to screw the locking nut a bit over loading window but it worked. Some years later I said screw it, I am going to order a dedicated die for .223 which should fit better - well imagine my surprise when I received the package it was exactly the same die and NO it didn't fit any better! The only difference is that fireball has extended shellholder which I didn't receive it originally but RCBS promptly sent it to me for free.

I don't know about CFE Pistol, but I've tried CFE Black and it shot really well! It also produced most insane velocity, 50gr V-max 5 shot avg 3346fps avg, extreme spread 6 fps! SD 2.9. The group was 0.66 MOA. This was with 19.8gr which is max load so approach it carefully. Note this was measured with Labradar and exceeds hodgdon data by almost 150 fps. I've heard and confirmed the powder performs best when it's full case or slightly compressed; because of this it might not be suitable for cast, I've also used it in 300 blk where it performed poorly except with very light cast bullet RCBS 115 RN (120gr drop). Other powders that performed really well for me Reloader 7, IMR 4198.

[mattw]

Not sure about the RCBS Pro/comp dies... I have been using the windowed ones with the extended shell holder for years. I really like them and they seem to produce great ammo. With the cast bullet, the Redding micrometer seater does seem to like the profile of the bullet better and is more accurate when seating. I think that all one would need with the RCBS die is a longer shell holder to use it for 221 properly. I may call them and ask that question today.

I think I see the difference, the Pro lists a free floating seater stem, I think all of mine are attached to the micrometer head.

[35remington]

I weight sort myself...but what was fascinating was the finding that even fairly severe blemishes and weight differences made little difference in accuracy. We may disagree, but the results were as reported. This was for 100 and 200 yard match shooting. I invite your reading of the results if you are interested. The way the testing was carried out was of significant statistical relevance. John Alexander did much of this while trying to make 22s match capable.

Such findings may not be relevant for all shooting but to some extent are supported by some of my results in testing the effects of variation. It is tempting to figure that OCD procedures always produce favorable results but cast bullets often do not respond to obsessive jacketed bullet accuracy procedures. Statistically relevant findings are just that.

Along the way it seems that fit of the bullet is more important than small variations in weight by my findings as well.....as in, is the bullet correctly fit to the throat that is present? Does the bore riding design actually bore ride?

The disparate methods of pursuing accuracy make shooting a cast bullet fascinating and the fact the bullet itself can vary in dimensionality makes the pursuit more challenging. Along the way it is also found that a gentle launch and moderate pressure and speed yield positives in accuracy.

It has for me, anyway, and I suspect most others.

[mattw]

Do you have a copy of the article? I have not been a member for a few years.

[35remington]

I don’t have a copy but a search of the forum yields considerable discussion of the effects of weight variation and on cast bullet 22 accuracy.

The one and only time I dropped a mould it put a ding on the nose of one of the cavities in the double cavity 225438 I was using. Dismayed I bought a new mould and compared the dinged cavity bullet to the undinged. No difference in group size was noted which was interesting. Also compared it to new mould. No change.

The 190 Ranch Dog shot out of my 350 RM is a very accurate shooter and bullets with huge sprue divots in their bases shot just as well as weighed and visually perfect bullets did.

When doing accuracy testing with a 308 and small game loads it was noticed that substantial variations in weight and finish appearance of the bullets produced no statistically significant differences in accuracy at the ranges they would be used. Among other similar findings over the years.

Such gave me a lot to think about, certainly, and probably is why I read the previously mentioned findings with some interest. I did some of my own tests in 22.

I suspect Mr Alexander may respond to a PM.

[mattw]

It has been a fun journey, that is for sure. We are about out of the season for bench work here, will be cold and really windy in the mornings before long. Will dig more.

[35remington]

What it was, was a contentious thread.

PM sent.

[35remington]

Am curious....given this is not an ordinary chamber what kind of clearance is there between chamber neck and cartridge neck when cast bullet of the desired diameter is seated? I presume this dimension is such that cast bullet diameter cannot much exceed jacketed bullet diameter?

I am a Dacron user to address the ES and SD issues that occur with partially filled cases myself. As often I shoot plainbase bullets this helps reduce gas cutting and the rifle shoots cleaner over a string of shots as well.

[mattw]

The chamber is tight (it was Harry's match 221FB reamer), but it does allow for a .225 bullet. But, that is all that you will get in it without neck turning or reaming if using factory 221 FB brass. I have to be careful that the bullet is very straight and that I only expand what I can crimp. So, a chamfered case mouth is a must with cast and the chamfer with the VLD bullet taper works the best. The crimp is very minimal, but compared to non-crimped equal loads accuracy is a tiny bit better with the crimp. The crimp is more of a neck straighten than anything. I would love to try a bushing neck die to set the final diameter as opposed to a slight crimp. With the bushing die I could set the exact tension, repeatably. This summer project has driven my OCD to the extremes. She and I have shot it more this summer than the last several summers.

BTW, if not said before... the bore rider is riding and recovered low velocity shots show it is pretty darn even. I am not sure it would bore ride if not for the PC. It might, but it would not be by much.

[35remington]

So for an honest average over multiple groups, how are you doing at 100?

[mattw]

So for an honest average over multiple groups, how are you doing at 100?

With jacketed match grade bullets, under dime size with 20% being true one hole, not one hole cutting. With the cast bullet in the pic above, and 5 shot groups.. dime to penny size for most groups. She rushes some shots and it kills otherwise 1 hole cutting groups. She is shooting several that are in the .37" to .42" range center to center on the widest spread. As you can see, she strings shots, so I am working on consistent shooting style as I assume this is a stock touch issue either in the stock neck or at the butt. I am seeing this same issue when she fires match jacketed bullets, but the groups are tighter. She is short, 5'2", and I think that I need to have her sitting a tad higher by the bench. this is something I intend to try during our next outing. I wish my stock was length adjustable, I would shorten it for her. But, I am not inclined to replace a weighted, glass bedded McMillian bench stock, but I may have to in order to improve her ability and confidence.

268758

[35remington]

The CBA has found they cannot get aggregates much below an inch keeping in mind they shoot ten shot groups. They have records that beat that but those are records not averages.

If you can honestly print five, five shot near one inch groups on the same piece of paper to show they are not cherry picked, and can do that on demand any given day you are doing way better than most of those who post the occasional bragging group and ignore all the rest they shot that don’t look so hot.

I have never believed in “magic powder” or “magic loads.” Once a suitable bullet is found at least several powders are capable of making the same size groups. I also have never believed in tenth grain incrementality being absolutely necessary......as in 26.6 grains of Whizzbang powder is THE load, for the reason that powder lot variation and the availability of other powders makes the idea somewhat moot.

My findings are usually that accuracy is found in a certain range of charge weight with a variety of powders. Haven’t found any unicorns, just loads that work and those that don’t.

[mattw]

The above groups are real and yes Alex can print 5 shot groups like that most days. No magic powder, but a velocity window that makes it perform. We are finding that this bullet and this rifle live for a velocity of around 2550 to 2650 fps. We have been working to tighten them up, but the rest of that target and most of her targets look like the 3 groups in the above photo. She is very ADHD and her excitement in the moment makes it very difficult for her to even keep 4 of 5 cutting. But, the same tendency drives her to try to make the smallest target she can. She is learning to relax and control some of her excitement, as was my goal from day 1 with introducing her to this style of shooting. It was also a good way to start teaching her precision reloading. I have targets with 9 counted targets and a fouler target and with 6 targets and a fouler target. She likes the 6 best because the visual distraction of the 9 gives her concentration problems. Unfortunately, since I never shot bench guns in competition on a regular basis, my record keeping sucks. We save good targets with all data and log on the back any ladder data that did not work... usually with chrono data. But, once a load is dialed in, that is very accurately logged and filed away for replication. Most of my time at a bench was with guys that were good to one that was simply amazing and we spent more time shooting fly targets and groups over coffee and BS as we were all good friends. A few times a summer we would travel as a group to a shoot somewhere and would always watch as one of the guys (Clint) would always place if not win. Upon his passing, his wife gifted me a 40XBR in 222 Mag that Clint wanted the young shooter in the group to have as I was not working with good gear in those days due to cost. Still have that rifle and always will. Have built other 222 Mags since and mainly shoot them, but this one has a special spot in my life.

Where she runs into problems is very windy and variably windy days. She handles mirage fairly well at 20 to 24x, I do not so I shoot at sunrise and she shoots after me. She has only been at this 2 1/2 seasons and 1 season with cast. She wants to compete, next summer I am going to find a venue for her to at least shoot a match. I have not shot a match in 19 years, quit that silliness the year she was to be born. I am not sure what class my rifle would even be in at this point. I read the wind for her, and am trying to help her learn to do so but wind shooting solo is her big weakness. That target above was shot on a day with a very consistent 11-12 mph cross wind. Our shooting lane is half exposed to E-W and N-S wind, but the second half of the 100 yards is pretty much wind free. So, she does shoot with transitional winds often. I have been very happy with her improvement in discipline as this is the most difficult part for her.

Another issue is that she is short, the stringing in her groups, I am sure, is based on some kind of stock contact during trigger pull and initial recoil. I am running a McMillan stock that I fitted to myself and 5'6" to 5'7" inches tall and she is only 5'2". The stock is not adjustable and the stock neck is almost to large for her to use as a trigger reference. I may have to try to acquire an adjustable chassis or at least a butt adjustable stock for her. My stock is weighted, the action was very tightly glass bedded when I installed it and it is a wonderfully stable stock... just does not fit her like it should. OMG the chassis are expensive! Have to place limits on the hobby somewhere. We are basically at the end of our shooting season for this year. Mornings near freezing are just not conducive to this style of shooting. We are really trying to work in 1 or 2 more mornings, but only get to shoot on weekends or a coordinated day out of school and work. The bummer, we only worked with my 222 Mag 2 days this summer, she was so focused on the FB and I did not want to throw distractions at her. We have shot from the bench 2 or 3 weekends a month all summer working on this cast bullet attempt. It started out as a horrible failure, almost told her... see it will not work. But, she wanted to ride out the ugly and see what we could do. Light bullets are a disaster in that gun and should not be in my opinion. 52 and 53 grain match bullets really shine in that rifle. But cast 50-55's just do not want to work. I suspect it is driving band contact or rotational speeds although we have never stripped PC or lead into the bore.

It has really been a fun summer, have not enjoyed shooting bench guns this much since my bench buddies passed away over the years.

The sad part, she is to the point she is out shooting the old man most days.

[charlie b]

Instead of replacing the McMillan have you considered shortening it and keeping some spacers for it if you want to shoot it again?

Sounds like a great kid.

[mattw]

Charlie, I had not though of that. The butt is hollow and I have partially filled it with lead shot in some form of adhesive. I do not even remember what now. I could open it up and epoxy in a fitted end plate and go that route. Maybe a good winter project.

[charlie b]

YW, I just didn't know if it was a prized possession or what. Some people are reluctant to change things on their own. I am the opposite, add to or modify most things I have.

If you really wanted to get fancy you could get one of those adjustable ones ;)

[dimaprok]

I had a chance to go out and shoot few days ago and I set a pretty low goal, shoot at least 3/4" group at 50 yards as previous attempts shooting with Lee 55gr was disaster, I couldn't keep the shoots on paper. Inspired by OP results I got a sample of same bullet, the powder coat had usual marks from the mesh basket, but I wanted to see if it had potential. Conventional wisdom said you need lighter bullet for 1 in 14 twist rate, but if it worked in his gun than there is a good chance it should in mine.

PC bullets with homemade gas checks were around 60.4gr +/- .1gr. I loaded 2400 powder in a string of 12.3, 12.5, 12.7 and 12.9gr in groups of 3. I sorted bullets for each string as close as possible in weight. What surprised me was velocity was much higher than OP had, at 12.3gr I was already at 2563fps, ES13 SD 6.5 and this was best group. I am using Lab Radar to measure it. The rest of the groups opened up and SD went up also, but this is limited data.

Unfortunately I forgot to bring gun rest and shooting off rickety table with my coat as support was terrible so the groups can be better but right there I reached my goal of 1.5 MOA (very close) and that make me quite happy and excited! I know I can do better with a gun rest and I can also drop the charge even lower to see if I get better group.

At 12.7gr I was almost 2700 fps! If I recall correctly the OP velocity at same charge was little under 2500 fps, I went through the thread and can't find actual data.

My results are nowhere as good, but it's a huge step up for me and making me a believer that I can shoot 22 lead bullets accurately.
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[charlie b]

Matt,

Have you looked into the Cast Bullet Assn postal matches?

https://castbulletassoc.org/postal-rules

From looking at their previous match results your daughter should do well.

[mattw]

Charlie, no I have not... was not aware. I will look into that. She really wants to compete, might get her started. I am also looking into ARA, would not be opposed to a decent rim fire. I have been hoarding 22lr SV & HV for 20 years... just in case.

[mattw]

At 12.7gr I was almost 2700 fps! If I recall correctly the OP velocity at same charge was little under 2500 fps, I went through the thread and can't find actual data.

My results are nowhere as good, but it's a huge step up for me and making me a believer that I can shoot 22 lead bullets accurately.
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That is interesting... 12.7gr. of 2400 with the NOE 60gr. gave me a 20 shot average of 2560 shot across a few different days. Can you tell me more about your gun? I would love to know the difference. My barrel is a 23" 1:14 twist. We seat just to touch the lands with a PC bullet of alloy 94/3/3. No way to measure pressure, but bolt opens with ease, primers flat but not cratered. BTW, not bad shooting for load work up... not bad at all.

[dimaprok]

That is interesting... 12.7gr. of 2400 with the NOE 60gr. gave me a 20 shot average of 2560 shot across a few different days. Can you tell me more about your gun? I would love to know the difference. My barrel is a 23" 1:14 twist. We seat just to touch the lands with a PC bullet of alloy 94/3/3. No way to measure pressure, but bolt opens with ease, primers flat but not cratered. BTW, not bad shooting for load work up... not bad at all.

I am using Lab Radar to measure but I also still have my Pro Chrono, I'll see if I can set them up at the same time. How far do you normally setup your chronograph from the muzzle?
The alloy according to guy sent me [mix 5 lb pure, 9 Lb WW, 4.5 lb of Lino and a 3/4 Lb chunk of pewter. water dropped and got 17BHN] I didn't actually test hardness.

I have hornady bullet comparator but haven't actually measured where it touches the lands, I need to do that.

The rifle is stock Remington 700, 24" barrel and 1:14 twist rifling. The barrel is too thin for my liking. When 221Fb bug bit me 3 years ago I wanted one really bad but luck has it they all literally sold out right before my nose and only Remington was left for which I overpaid dearly but it has not disappointed, it's my most accurate gun and it's a beauty.

The primers were not flat even at 12.9gr. I was going to take picture and forgot. I am using RCBS Lite to drop charges and than verify on my Gem Pro 250 and trickle up if needed, they all were within .02 grain. One possible explanation that Lapua brass might have smaller volume and increased pressure.

I was planning to go out and do some more testing while the weather was still good but all fell through, hopefully I'll get another chance.

[charlie b]

Charlie, no I have not... was not aware. I will look into that. She really wants to compete, might get her started. I am also looking into ARA, would not be opposed to a decent rim fire. I have been hoarding 22lr SV & HV for 20 years... just in case.

I found them by accident when I was researching the accuracy of cast bullet loads a couple years ago. I haven't joined or participated because I am not consistent enough yet.

Interesting side note is that one of the postal competitors has the same rifle as mine.

Like many I started with .22 as a kid. I bought another .22 rifle a few years ago, but, just could not keep my interest like the CF rifles. I think it is a catch-22 (appropriate name in this case :) ). The less expensive rifles aren't accurate enough for me, and I don't want to spend the money on one that I know will be accurate.

[dimaprok]

I ran the data through Quickload and actually got pretty much exact what I was getting, calculated 2699fps at 12.7gr and actual avg, 2697fps. What scares me is that it's at 47.2K PSI which is over max 46.4k PSI and at 12.9gr produces 49k, I don't think it's enough to blow up the gun but pushing tiny lead bullet at this pressure... I am uncomfortable.

I am going to load some with IMR 4198. At 16gr (everything else same) it produces 38.9K PSI and estimated 2699 fps, fills 97.9% case capacity. Will try 15.1, 15.4, 15.7, 16, 16.3gr increments.
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[mattw]

dimaprok, that is interesting... I have never used quickloads... I tend to work by feel and look. Does the bolt open hard, are the primers flat or cratered, are the case mouths sooted? Given basic expectations that I have learned with that rifle over the years, I find that hard to believe. Now it is a snug match chamber in a rifle with a trued action and a very thick barrel, I suppose it could be possible. It is odd that I am not hitting the velocity that you are. Is that a jacketed or cast bullet? The NOE has very little bearing bands and may contribute as well as the PC may contribute to the lower pressure and velocity?

That said, she had a horrible weekend with the rifle this weekend. Could barely pull together 1.5" groups. We are basically out of 2400, I thought I had 8 more pounds, so we started a ladder with N130 and I started way to low, the first loads barely made 2000fps and shot a 3" group. We ran out of time to work more of the ladder, but by the time they were hitting upper 2200's the groups were down to 1.5" 4198 worked very well for me with 52/53 match jacketed loads.

[dimaprok]

Quickloads is not 100% accurate for obvious reasons such as your rifle is different from mine and one batch of powder is different from next but I use it as guideline but can be be very fun as well. I can play with different powders and get an idea what to expect, like how much bullseye I can put in .308 or what will I get if I fill 221 with slow burning powder (you get unburned powder). With recent update, I now have Shooters World, some newer Hodgdon powders and I have NOE bullets as well. For example before I had Shooter World data I made up a ladder of 5 different charges with Blackout powder and 50gr jacketed soft point because the powder is similar to 1680 burn rate it should be suitable, well I just plugged in the data and discovered that my starting load of 15gr is at "magenta" color close to max at 40.2K and my highest load of 16.5gr is over pressure at 52.3k so now I have to pull upper load rounds and start lower.

I go by the same look and feel but when working with new powder that doesn't have load data, working blindly it helps a lot, take your N130 powder as perfect example. You can spend your entire outing and walk away disappointed because you're not even in ballpark with your loads or you can find out that according to QuickLoad you're safe with N130 even at 100% case capacity which is about 17gr 35.9k, this is why Nosler shows compressed data and also why you won't see high velocity either.
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Nosler actually has N130 data https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/221-remington-fireball/

Regarding your questions about my high velocity I was shooting NOE 60gr (same bullet as yours) PC and gas checked and yes I noticed in my other 30 cal cartridge I am getting about 100fps more with lead bullets that are a bit heavier than jacketed bullets with exact same powder charge. With lighter bullet the difference might be even greater. There is a remote possibility that LabRadar vs traditional Chrono could be off.