S&W Model 69 .44 Mag

[Hardcast]

Cast Boolit brothers: Just read a long thread on the Ruger GP100 .44 Special, and the S&W Model 69 was mentioned a few times in the conversation. But, even doing a forum search, I cannot find any discussion of the S&W L fame 44 Mag. If any of you have more experiences and opinions,especially with cast boolits, please share your thoughts. Thanks.

[Nobade]

I thought those were chambered for 44 spl, not magnum. Could be mistaken, I wanted one when they came out but never could swing it. Guess they're pretty rare by now.

[Paul105]

I have M69s in both barrel lengths (2 ¾” and 4 ¼”)
Shown here next to a Kahr CW45
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/M69s%20CW45%20a%20IMG_1096.jpg
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Couple of groups form the 2 ¾”
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/Target%20M69%202.75%20260gr%2050%20yds.jpg
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/FullSizeRender%20_1_.jpg
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/001a%20wst%202.75%20IMG_1796.jpg
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25 yds rested on range bag, 17.5gr A2400, 265gr SWCGC 429244, deep seated in .44 Mag Cases and crimped over front drive band.
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/1a%202.75%20M69-2_%20265%20SWCGC%2017.5%202400%20IMG_1189.jpg
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Some more, but with 4 ¼”
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Doing some load development
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/Target%20P4100016_zps96024e17.jpg
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Sighting in – 25yds rested on range bag, 17.5gr A2400, 265gr SWCGC 429244, deep seated in .44 Mag Cases and crimped over front drive band.
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/Target%20M69%204.25%20No3%2025yds%20sight%20in%202 65%20SWCGC%2017.5%20A2400.jpg
.
FWIW,
Paul

[rintinglen]

My experience seems to have been atypical, but the one I have is totally unsuited to use with cast Boolits. It came stock with .4285 throats and a .429 bore, and leaded horribly—I recovered twelve grains of lead from the bore after firing less than 50 429-421’s. A load which has worked well in every other 44 I own or have owned. Doug Guy did his usual outstanding work on the cylinder but that barrel leads like crazy, still. I still have it, because it shoots well with the Barnes lead-free bullets required by the socialist state I formerly resided in for hunting, but it will be sold now that I live in the USA again. I have a Ruger GP100 that replaces it for most purposes that not only does not lead but is more accurate as well.

However, there are several other fellows who report excellent service from theirs. One guy in particular reported shooting over 1500 rounds with no leading problems. Another gent not only has the 4 1/4 inch version but the snubbie version as well and IIRC has posted some pics of some fine groups. That’s him, just above. Mine will shoot jacketed like that but I can’t match those groups with cast.

There were several threads about the Model 69. My google-foo is inferior, but I hope one of the more computer-savvy members can post the links.

[Hickory]

I got one for Christmas, 4 and a1/4". I haven't shot it enough to gage it's accuracy. When the ground dries out a little more I'll try some different boolits and loads in it.

[Hickory]

I thought those were chambered for 44 spl, not magnum. Could be mistaken, I wanted one when they came out but never could swing it. Guess they're pretty rare by now.

Used ones are rare, new ones can still be had.

[Paul105]

Here's a picture of the 2 3/4" barrel after several range sessions with the 17.5/2400/429244 after several range sessions.

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/bbl%2080%20rnds%20blue%20bullet%20thumbnail_IMG_26 75.jpg

FWIW,

Paul

[Hardcast]

I thought those were chambered for 44 spl, not magnum. Could be mistaken, I wanted one when they came out but never could swing it. Guess they're pretty rare by now.

There were a couple 44 Specials made on the L frame (can't recall the model numbers), but the 69 is a 44 Mag. The 69 is readily available in both 2.75" and 4.25" barrels.

Edit: The stainless L frame 44 Spl is the model 696.

[Hardcast]

Here's a picture of the 2 3/4" barrel after several range sessions with the 17.5/2400/429244 after several range sessions.

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/bbl%2080%20rnds%20blue%20bullet%20thumbnail_IMG_26 75.jpg

FWIW,

Paul

Paul, why are you deep seating? Is the cylinder too short to seat them in the crinp groove in magnum brass?

[Hardcast]

My experience seems to have been atypical, but the one I have is totally unsuited to use with cast Boolits. It came stock with .4285 throats and a .429 bore, and leaded horribly—I recovered twelve grains of lead from the bore after firing less than 50 429-421’s. A load which has worked well in every other 44 I own or have owned. Doug Guy did his usual outstanding work on the cylinder but that barrel leads like crazy, still. I still have it, because it shoots well with the Barnes lead-free bullets required by the socialist state I formerly resided in for hunting, but it will be sold now that I live in the USA again. I have a Ruger GP100 that replaces it for most purposes that not only does not lead but is more accurate as well.

However, there are several other fellows who report excellent service from theirs. One guy in particular reported shooting over 1500 rounds with no leading problems. Another gent not only has the 4 1/4 inch version but the snubbie version as well and IIRC has posted some pics of some fine groups. That’s him, just above. Mine will shoot jacketed like that but I can’t match those groups with cast.

There were several threads about the Model 69. My google-foo is inferior, but I hope one of the more computer-savvy members can post the links.


rintinglen,

Is Doug Guy the Cylindersmith? I had him ream a model 36 cylinder years ago. It had very undersize throats and he made them exactly .358". I was very happy. Have a model 29 with .427" throats that I need to send him. Does your barrel have a constriction? Have you tried lapping it with bore paste? What are your throat diameters now?

[rintinglen]

Doug Guy is a member here who may indeed go by the Cylindersmith handle, but he did a superior job of enlarging and truing my cylinder throats. I heartily recommend him, in fact, I've a Webley cylinder that will be off to him once I get finished unpacking.

My barrel is a POC that is the roughest I have ever seen on an alleged quality revolver. The grooves appear to have been scraped out with an old, chipped wood chisel. The degree of roughness was originally disguised by some oil in the bore, but had to be seen to be believed. A letter to S&W got no response. I firelapped and hand-lapped the bore, which resulted in some improvement, but it still is unacceptable. As mentioned, initially the chamber throats were smaller than the groove diameter of the bore, but even after Doug Guy smoothed and enlarged them all to .4315 (and they are IDENTICAL as far as I can measure,) leading was still severe.
Now I have been reloading and casting since the 6O's and have had over a dozen 44's over the years, but I have never had one the would lead up like this. I use two "standard" loads, both involving the 429-421, either 7.5 grains of Unique in 44 Spl cases or 18.5 grains of 2400 in Mag cases and have been sizing .431 since the late Major George Nonte advised me to go "two thousandths over the groove diameter for best accuracy," 40+ years ago. This revolver is "unique" though not in a good way.

I bought a Ruger GP100 3 inch which has proven to be a superior firearm.

[Hardcast]

Wow. Sounds like you received a lemon. I do not understand why S&W would not fix the problem. As you can see from Paul's pic in a post above, he is not having any leading problem. Thanks much for the input.

[Hardcast]

Paul, I see you have X frame rubber grips on both your 69s, but the snub has a smaller grip. I assume you modified it. Belt sander or some other technique? Thanks.

[Hardcast]

Just looked up Cylindersmith's website. He no longer does this service. Quit taking work in 2014. I should have sent my model 29 cylinder to him years ago instead of letting it sit in the safe. Is anyone else doing throat reaming?

A little more searching shows that Doug Guy and Cylindersmith may be 2 different people. Still looking.

[rintinglen]

Doug Guy is still working and is a member here, with numerous satisfied customers. Send him a PM, I think he's "DougGuy. This is a before photo of Hornady .430 (which I affirmed with my trusty Starrett) jacketed bullets protruding from the cylinder throats. If you enlarge it, you can see that they are hanging up on the Ogive.
"259198

[Hardcast]

Doug Guy is still working and is a member here, with numerous satisfied customers. Send him a PM, I think he's "DougGuy."

Found his info on the forum and sent him an email Thanks.

[Paul105]

The M69 cylinder will take the 429421 seated and crimped in the crimp groove but it is close to the face of the cylinder. The nose to crimp on the 429244 is shorter than the 429421. Deep seating in .44 Mag cases gives better neck tension, takes up some case volume for lighter charges, provides a bit of extra room in case of crimp jump and allows these SWCs to function thru my Rossi carbine. Basically .44 special powder capacity in a .44 Mag case. Several other benefits are described by David Bradshaw on the singleactions.com forum.

Yes, X Frame 500 Hogues on the 2 3/4" in the first picture were modified using a belt sander and sanding block. Go real slow with the belt sander. The rubber is applied over a hard white shell which can be exposed if too aggressive, if that matters to you (didn't to me). And it does make a mess.

Paul

[Hardcast]

Thanks Paul. The only reason I would buy a 69 is because the X frame grips work on them. Years ago, when the .500 came out, I bough a couple X frame grips for N frame use. Still have a set on my Model 629 .45 Colt Mountain gun. Yes that is correct, not a typo. Had a set on a Model 625 .45 ACP revolver but sold it in 2018 and do not recall if I left the X frame grips on it or not. I will have to do some looking. But they are now available available from Hogue for $35.00 plus shipping. They take the sting out of the the hard kickers. Previously used Pachmayr Decelerator Grippers on big bore N frames, but the Hogue X frame grips are superior.

[Shuz]

I have had a Mdl 69 in 4-1/4" bbl for several years now. Mine wears Hogue X frame grips. I installed a Patridge front sight and a Wolff rebound slide spring.This revolver is now one of my, if not "the", favorite .44 magnum Smith. A great load with cast boolits that I use is the MP-432-423 round HP in front of either 9.0g of Green Dot or 10.0g of Unique. Velocity is 1138fps with the Unique load and accuracy is very good. Groups from a bench rest at 25 yards are often less than 2". The cylinder throats on my revolver measure .4285, so I size the boolits to .429, and as long as they are at least Saeco 7 in hardness, the leading wash seen is very minimal and comes out easily with a wet patch of Ed's Red. If the boolits are Saeco 5, The leading becomes pronounced and I clean after 25 rounds. Oddly enuf, accuracy did not seem to suffer, but that could be because I didn't let the leading really build up.

[Hardcast]

I have had a Mdl 69 in 4-1/4" bbl for several years now. Mine wears Hogue X frame grips. I installed a Patridge front sight and a Wolff rebound slide spring.This revolver is now one of my, if not "the", favorite .44 magnum Smith. A great load with cast boolits that I use is the MP-432-423 round HP in front of either 9.0g of Green Dot or 10.0g of Unique. Velocity is 1138fps with the Unique load and accuracy is very good. Groups from a bench rest at 25 yards are often less than 2". The cylinder throats on my revolver measure .4285, so I size the boolits to .429, and as long as they are at least Saeco 7 in hardness, the leading wash seen is very minimal and comes out easily with a wet patch of Ed's Red. If the boolits are Saeco 5, The leading becomes pronounced and I clean after 25 rounds. Oddly enuf, accuracy did not seem to suffer, but that could be because I didn't let the leading really build up.

I had to go to MP molds and look that up. Looks like a smaller version of the 452423 Lyman. Seems like it shoots well in your 69.

[fourarmed]

A neighbor of mine has one, and it is a lot like Rintinglen reports: throats smaller than groove diameter. I assumed it was intentional to hold pressure down with factory ammo.

[Hardcast]

A neighbor of mine has one, and it is a lot like Rintinglen reports: throats smaller than groove diameter. I assumed it was intentional to hold pressure down with factory ammo.

How would smaller throats hold down pressure? It seems to me that swaging bullets smaller as they go through the throat would increase pressure, especially jacketed bullets. Hornadys are .430".

[Shuz]

Hardcast-- I'm not familiar with the Lyman mould you referred to, but if you've looked at the MP-432-423, you'll notice that there is a small front driving band in the SWC style and that feature makes it cut nice clean holes in paper targets. The fact that the boolits in round hole version weigh only about 190g means that less alloy is used as well as lighter recoil from such a small revolver.

[Reverend Recoil]

I am happy with my S&W mod. 69 4 1/4". The chamber throats on mine measured 0.430". This revolver shoots Lee 240 gr. tumble lube and Accurate 43-250V bullets well with no leading. I replaced the factor grips with slightly wider Altamont Falconia grips.

[MT Gianni]

I am happy with my 4.2".

[44MAG#1]

I have 3 of the M69 Smiths. Two of the 2.75 inch and one of the 4.2 inch. The 2.75 inch guns have quickly become my favorite revolvers. Oh well.

[Hardcast]

Hardcast-- I'm not familiar with the Lyman mould you referred to, but if you've looked at the MP-432-423, you'll notice that there is a small front driving band in the SWC style and that feature makes it cut nice clean holes in paper targets. The fact that the boolits in round hole version weigh only about 190g means that less alloy is used as well as lighter recoil from such a small revolver.

Shuz, the story goes like this: the 452423 was designed by Elmer Keith for the .45 ACP revolvers. Nominal weight was around 238 grains. A fellow on this forum, Charles Graff, used is successfully in a 1911 and made it famous with his article titled "453423 I lLove You". It is a great article and I have read it several times. The article was available on the "Sixgunner" website the last I knew of. So now, when a mold maker scales down a similar bullet, they call it a 423 boolit. The Lyman 452423 molds were hard to find, so I honchoed the first 452423 group buy, back when we were using Lee 6 cavity molds for group buys. There has been at least one more group buy of this boolit since then, and now we have much better quality molds available. Also, Miha makes a HP version of this mold in 45 and as you said, in 432 also.

[Paul105]

The 2 3/4" shown in the picture in my first post is my carry gun -- set up to shoo the 260gr WFNGC/23.0gr H110. I also have a range gun with the Leupold Deltapoint Pro (not quite ready to rely on battery operated optic for use with carry gun). This is mounted on a Raptor Eng https://www.raptor-eng.com/ base which I highly recommend - great product and customer service. The red dot is a god-send for these old eyes.

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_32471.JPG

Oh, and the 2 3/4" M69 is also my favorite DA revolver.

FWIW,

Paul

[Hardcast]

Paul,

The 260 Gr WFN is a formidable bullet, holy cow, that sounds like a fierce load in a short barrel. It should make a huge fireball ! Have you run it over a chronograph? In my youth I loaded 24-25 grains of H110 behind a 240 JHP for hunting. The only LBT Mold I have is a 280 gr WFNGC I bought for as S&W 629 with .4325" throats. Veral cut the mold to cast around .433 IIRC. All this talk has me thinking not only about a 4" 69, but the short barrel too. Thanks for the info and the pics.

[Paul105]

Here are some chrono results from the 2 ¾” M69

5 Long paces from muzzle
30 to 70 def f
Results recorded on different days and months.
H110 Load used Mag Primers
New or 1X cases.

240gr JHP, Federal Factory No. 44A production date May ’81 --------------------------------------------- 1,137 fps
240gr JFP (Zero) 23.5gr H110, seated and crimped in crimp grove in Mag cases -------------------- 1,126 fps
260gr WFNGC (Mt Bul Wks) 23.0gr H110, seated and crimped in crimp grove in Mag cases ----- 1,125 fps
265gr SWCGC (429244) 17.5gr 2400, seated deep, crimped over fr drive band in Mag cases --- 1,100 fps
265gr SWCGC (429244) 23.5gr H110, seated and crimped in crimp grove in Mag cases ---------- 1,162 fps
310gr FNGCDC (Lee) 20.0gr H110, seated and crimped in top crimp grove in Mag cases --------- 1,100 fps
325gr LFNGC (BTB) 22.0gr H110, seated and crimped in crimp grove in Mag cases --------------- 1,104 fps

H110 Load used Mag Primers
New or 1X cases.

Here's picture of my friend shooting my 2 3/4" with 240gr JFP 24.0gr H110 -- video taken w/Iphone then isolated frame by frame. Can't see it in the video (not enough frames/sec?) and I don't notice when actually shooting - never shot at night

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/5%20ea%20H110_%202.75%20M69_%20Jeff%20Outside_Mome nt.jpg

Paul

[Hardcast]

Yes, that is a fireball ! Awesome snub nose revolver. All those cast loads should shoot lengthwise through any typical size wild pig. Thanks for the data..

[Paul105]

The above chrono results were at 5 long paces from the muzzle with my Competition Eletronics. Subsequently obtained a Labradar and chronoed some Buff Bore, and Underwood 305gr ammo in three guns -- here are the results. Sorry for the serial posting - will be getting out here shortly.

Buffalo Bore, 305 LBT LFN HC rated 1,325 fps
Underwood, 305 LFNGC Plated (HiTech?) rated 1,325 fps
LabRadar muzzle velocity at 33 deg F

S&W M69 2.75" ===> BB 1,195 fps ===> Under 1,147fps
S&W M69 4.25" ===> BB 1,276 fps ===> Under 1,248 fps
Ruger SRH 7.5" ===> BB 1,395 fps ===> Under 1,315 fps

[Hardcast]

The above chrono results were at 5 long paces from the muzzle with my Competition Eletronics. Subsequently obtained a Labradar and chronoed some Buff Bore, and Underwood 305gr ammo in three guns -- here are the results. Sorry for the serial posting - will be getting out here shortly.

Buffalo Bore, 305 LBT LFN HC rated 1,325 fps
Underwood, 305 LFNGC Plated (HiTech?) rated 1,325 fps
LabRadar muzzle velocity at 33 deg F

S&W M69 2.75" ===> BB 1,195 fps ===> Under 1,147fps
S&W M69 4.25" ===> BB 1,276 fps ===> Under 1,248 fps
Ruger SRH 7.5" ===> BB 1,395 fps ===> Under 1,315 fps

Thanks for the BB and Underwood data. I fired some heavy Buffalo Bore heavy 45 Colt loads in a friend's 5.5" ruger Bisley several years ago. They were monster loads. I do not believe I would be willing to shoot loads like this in the S&W 69. I glad there are guys like you who are willing to do it. :)

[Shuz]

Hardcast--Thanks for the info regarding the 423 origin.
Yesterday I cast a couple of hundred round point 432-423 boolits from my brand new 4C brass MP mold. I was amazed that the delta was only. 9g amongst the 4 cavities!! The average weight was 189.6g. Amazingly this was on only the second session with this new mould. Only prep done was to lube the sliding hp pin shafts and the sprue plate!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

The M69 was the replacement for the S&W 696 the Ruger GP100/44 was also a replacement for that gun.

Mine is a 696 no dash as opposed to a 696-1 or -2. -1 had the firing pin in the frame as opposed to on the hammer, and the -2 had the silly Lawyer Lock on the gun like current S&W revolvers all have.

All the 696's had a Birdshead grip frame which allows use of the X Frame grips,,, which are wonderful.

My gun was used and not cheap. The barrel was so leaded the guy wouldn't shoot it anymore. He had no clue how to deal with lead boolits and it took me a whole 10 minutes to clean the lead out of that barrel. The gun had 50 rounds of factory .44 Special ammo ran thru it, hence the leading. He gave up on it, his loss, my gain! :mrgreen:

I have a Magma mould for a really neat 190 gr SWC which I thought would be the hot ticket for this gun. They shot 12" high so I loaded a bunch of 429421's with 6.0 gr of W231 which shot right to the sights. So that's what this gun gets. PC'd boolits don't lead anything.

My gun is a joy to shoot, and I shoot it for IDPA when it is available to me.

Randy

[Silvercreek Farmer]

My 4.2 leads a bit, probably due to tight throats, but it is so accurate, I have not messed with it. Bore is smooth as can be.

[Three44s]

My sweetest 44 is my Mountain Gun and it still wears the factory Goodyears. It is my baseline on 44 Mag performance.

My nephew owns a Model 69 in 4 1/4” persuasion. He acquired it to carry while elk hunting when he was going to school in Montana (MSU).

I have loaded it for him but I can not report leading or not but he is home now due to the school’s closure and this is his graduation year. He is going to be home now and brought all his guns home and we will get down to brass tax.

I shot the gun before he did and was using factory and handloads on a limited basis. My overall impression is it needs a different grip than the factory “Goodyear’s”.

The X Grip seems like a logical choice for the 69 if you are using one for woods carry.

Liability issues aside if you are carrying a 69 for more urban situations then the factory grip and judicious downloading is called for. The X Grip would not conceal or present very well IMO.

My Mountain Gun 629-4 4” gets my nod hands down over the Model 69 in the factory grip that my nephew owns. I base that on recoil. Now I own a SRH in .480 Ruger and love it before anyone wants to brand me a pansy! But for what it is, and maybe it is just me, the 69 delivers quite a bit more punishment compared to my MG!

So I will restate the obvious, if you have a 69 for the woods put the X Grip on it.

Trigger wise it is an unfair comparison but my MG beats the snot out of my nephew’s 69. Construction material differences aside, my MG has been fired and dry fired a ton since I bought it new back in the fall of ‘98 so the 69 has a decided disadvantage there. Given a fair bit of breakin I do believe the 69 would come around though enough to be adequate. The MIM parts in the 69 being a bit of a wild card.

When I have more definitive experience with the 69 I will share it.

Three44s

[Hardcast]

Thanks to everyone for the info, data, and photos. This all very helpful. I am going send the cylinder from my one remaining Model 29 (a Classic 5") to DougGuy for honing the throats. I just slugged the barrel and it looks like it's .429 at the tightest point. It does have the constriction. So what is the ideal throat size? I want to shoot both cast and jacketed. My Noslers measure .428 diameter, the Hornady XTPs are .430. Of course most commercial cast are .430". I was going with .4305 throats, but I just read an opinion that they should be no larger than bullet diameter, so maybe .430 would be fine. What do you all think?

[onelight]

I get to shoot a mod.69 quite often a shooting buddy has one it shoots very well with .430 Hi-Tek bullets both 180 and 240 grain at 900 to 1200 FPS.

[Three44s]

Thanks to everyone for the info, data, and photos. This all very helpful. I am going send the cylinder from my one remaining Model 29 (a Classic 5") to DougGuy for honing the throats. I just slugged the barrel and it looks like it's .429 at the tightest point. It does have the constriction. So what is the ideal throat size? I want to shoot both cast and jacketed. My Noslers measure .428 diameter, the Hornady XTPs are .430. Of course most commercial cast are .430". I was going with .4305 throats, but I just read an opinion that they should be no larger than bullet diameter, so maybe .430 would be fine. What do you all think?

I think you are right over the target but run that by DougGuy, he is in the business.

Three44s

[W.R.Buchanan]

The thing with S&W revolvers is all the big ones hit the web of your hand really hard and this gets old fast. With MY m29 I could shoot 12 rounds of full power loads and I was done. Put Pachmayer grips of that one and it was much better.

Fast forward to now and all the S&W L and N and X frame guns have the same grip frame and take the same grips. if you look at the pic I posted above you'll see that there is 3/8" of padding in between your hand and the grip frame. This makes all the difference in the world.

Ruger figured this out from the get go and put that same style grip on their GP100/44.

Randy

[Three44s]

I need to work with my nephew’s 69 some more to put my finger on what the main difference is between my 629 MG and it.

I checked the weight and the difference is relatively small (around 3oz.).

What I did notice is that the effective grip angle was different. Not the frame configuration but the angle of the barrel as it actually presents itself in one’s hand with the supplied grip.

My MG wears the factory Goodyear’s it left the factory with. The 69 I have access to has it’s stock factory grip as well.

When you lay one revolver over the other you see some amount of rubber/synthetic material over the back strap on the 69. My 629 MG is bare at the upper end.

Logic would suggest that the covered back strap would bite less but we need to consider what the consistency of that covering. With the 69 I can access, it is a very dense material.

Without the cushioning, it acts more like the unforgiving and bare back strap that exists with my MG.

SO, when I compare the 69 vs. my MG, I find that my strong hand is bent farther forward and downward with the MG and less so with the 69.

I have a lot of experience with shooting my Ruger Redhawk which I switched to a rubber Uncle Mikes grip. The Redhawk has a more vertical grip angle as in my strong hand is likely even more straight compared to the S&W 69.

Bringing all this gobbly gook together, with my MG has a bare back strap at the top and an extended bit of rubber at the lower rear area. My wrist is more bent as in my hand leaning farther forward. The 69 has the top strap covered at the top but apparently less rubber at the lower rear, thus my hand is held straighter to have the barrel pointed to the same level as the MG.

When either gun discharges, my wrist when holding the 69 will begin to really tighten up sooner than with my MG. The velocity of my MG in rotation is likely slower when my wrist rotation tighten’s up because I have a bit longer to slow it down. Thus the S&W 69 pounds me harder than my 629 MG.

Three44s

[Paul105]

Back in Feb of 2014, I wrote the following in response to a question about recoil of my then new 4 1/4" M69:

I took the 329, 629 Mtn Gun and the M69 to the range this afternoon. Ammo was the aforementioned Federal Factory .44 Mag 240gr JHP (No. 44A). All three guns were equipped with the 500 X Frame Houge grips. My perception was that recoil of the 329 is definitely snappier/faster, and the Mtn Gun has a bit more muzzle rise vs. the M69. Only thing I can think of is that the barrel is skinnier and the bore to grip relationship is higher on the 629 vs. the M69 (which rides lower in the hand and has a bit more weight forward). Could also just be my imagination. As should be expected, the Mtn Gun feels a bit bulky compared to the M69 – subtle, but noticeable to me.

Recoil is subjective, so your mileage may vary.

[Three44s]

Paul105,

You raise an important point about the balance point of a MG vs the 69.

If I owned a 69 for woods carry I would put an X grip on it in a heart beat. I was comparing the factory grip (69 vs. 629 MG)

I fired a 329 with the wooden grip and the owners bear loads. It did not bother me that much.

In my mind there are two recoil factors: One that is caused by the hand gun rotating within the shooter’s hand and which causes what I call “web bite” and the other, a straight back push or stab.

My Redhawk excels in generating the straight back stab, big time!

My MG is the opposite as it is a web eater.

Each of us react differently to recoil but for me, the web eating discomfort is much less of a distraction than the pounding my forearm gets from a gun that stabs me straight back.

Perhaps the 69 was stabing straight back because of a greater muzzle weight.

Best regards

Three44s

[Paul105]

Three44s

My problem is the bone at the base of my thumb. Most grips hammer it unmercifully under recoil, even with moderate loads -- I even have trouble shooting a Browning HiPower comfortably.

The recent OEM grips supplied with the M69s (and others) for some reason don't work for me.

The Hogue 500 X Frame grips have been a God send. I've even modified them a bit as follows:

I’m a big fan of the S&W 500 X Frame Hogue grips (Tamers). I have them mounted on all my S&W Round Butt grip frames where they fit. They do seem a bit large on some of the L and K Frame guns.

So, I set about modifying an old set of worn out 500 X Frame grips. Using my “Work Sharp” knife sharpener (mini belt sander) I shortened, rounded and narrowed the bottom of the butt and eliminated the finger grooves. Because of the condition of the grips being modified this was basically “exploratory surgery”. For the 20 minutes it took, I was pleased with the outcome. Reduced grip profile, making them a bit more compact for better concealability (which I’m not particularly concerned with). I will note that there is enough material remaining on the grips that additional trimming would be fairly easy. Here's a picture of the results on my 2.75" M69 .44 Mag.

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_0732.JPG

I like these so much that I have a new set that I will modify in the near future.

Paul

[Hardcast]

Three44s



I will note that there is enough material remaining on the grips that additional trimming would be fairly easy. Here's a picture of the results on my 2.75" M69 .44 Mag.



Paul

Paul,
I have the same problem as you. I cannot shoot anything larger than 357 in an N frame without a rubber grip that covers the backstop. For many years I used the Pachmayr Decelerator Grippers, even though they were too long for my medium size hand. The X frame grips are great. Have a set my my .45 Colt Mountain gun. However, on a 69 snub, they look way too long. In addition to what you have done, is there enough material to shorten them further at the butt? Thanks.

[Three44s]

Paul105,

I feel for your dilemma with your strong hand, but I marvel at your ingenuity at problem solving!

For some time I have been thinking of constructing a belt grinder (heavier version of a sander) for my farm shop and watching the videos on U-tube gives me a lot of ideas ..... actually too many ideas on how to accessorize it!

But I digress. I am surprised that even with mods you can still shoot a 44 given your hand issue. Have you ever considered trying to switch strong hands?

Best regards

Three44s

[Paul105]

Paul,
I have the same problem as you. I cannot shoot anything larger than 357 in an N frame without a rubber grip that covers the backstop. For many years I used the Pachmayr Decelerator Grippers, even though they were too long for my medium size hand. The X frame grips are great. Have a set my my .45 Colt Mountain gun. However, on a 69 snub, they look way too long. In addition to what you have done, is there enough material to shorten them further at the butt? Thanks.

You might be able to shorten them a bit more. The problem is the attachment screw is in the way -- not sure there is a way around that.

Paul

[Hardcast]

You might be able to shorten them a bit more. The problem is the attachment screw is in the way -- not sure there is a way around that.

Paul

OK, thanks.

[Paul105]

Paul105,

I feel for your dilemma with your strong hand, but I marvel at your ingenuity at problem solving!

For some time I have been thinking of constructing a belt grinder (heavier version of a sander) for my farm shop and watching the videos on U-tube gives me a lot of ideas ..... actually too many ideas on how to accessorize it!

But I digress. I am surprised that even with mods you can still shoot a 44 given your hand issue. Have you ever considered trying to switch strong hands?

Best regards

Three44s

Years ago, I changed the way I hold DA revolvers - hand rotated a bit and thumb held high - that a long with the X Frame grips have mitigated the problem. I can shot 50 rnds Magnum level loads (before I get tired -- ageing a bit) with no discomfort and no after effects. Usually shoot 30+ mag loads 2 or 3 times a week (before current stuff hit) - now not quite once a week. Don't know if this picture shows my grip.

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/11%20FS%20PGS%20IMG_0782_Moment.jpg

I shoot my Kahr CW45 (long double action pull) once a month or so with my weak hand , and will run a cylinder or so thru the M69. Weak hand M69 is only going to be effective double action in an emergency and up close and personal.

Paul

[Hardcast]

I just called Hogue and ordered 2 more X frame grips. Thanks again Paul. :)

[hhilljr]

I had a 4.2" version and sold it. I did buy and install X frame grips, which made it much more pleasant to shoot, but it had barrel alignment issues. As it came from the factory, the barrel shroud was canted to the left noticeably. When trying to sight it in, I almost ran out of windage adjustment! So, I sent it back, and S&W said it was an issue with the frame. They basically sent me a new gun. And it was off too, just not as much. I never got around to shooting cast bullets out of it, but judging by the amount of copper fouling it quickly accumulated, I assumed a rough bore too.

My GP100 44 special suits me better for what I need. YMMV

[Three44s]

Paul105,

I think I get a sense of how you are holding your revolver.

It looks like you shift the base of your thumb to behind the back strap and follow up with shifting your weak hand to replace the loss of support.

You are sort of clasping your grip?

All I can say is that you being able to fire that many rounds from a compact 44 Mag revolver and control it is simply outstanding given the circumstances!

Well done!

Three44s

[Groo]

Groo here
Tried that once [ya] never again.
After hitting the shield with my thumb,,, changed to the hammer grip and Keith's "cup" [ not under] hold and allowed the gun to move.
Unless you are shooting SD fast [ with a 44MAG????] Allowing the gun to "run " a little works wonders.
I stopped fighting the hard kickers a long ago.

[44MAG#1]

I, too, use a grip very close to the Elmer Keith grip. Ive shot some hard kickers and still use the same grip. The M69 just doesn't kick that hard even with full house ammo. The only thing I have done is replace the RB stocks on the 2.75 inch to the SB stocks that come with the 4.2 inch.
an go to a Patridge style front on the one 2.75 inch I use. The other has a red dot and the 4.2 inch has a red dot.

[Hardcast]

I have always gripped a DA revolver like Randy posted in his pic several posts up from this. Looks like I need to learn something from you guys and modify my grip.

[44MAG#1]

I have always gripped a DA revolver like Randy posted in his pic several posts up from this. Looks like I need to learn something from you guys and modify my grip.

Everyone's hands are different. My advice to anyone is to use a grip that is easy to do each and every time you shoot. Consistancy in grip make better accuracy. If you use a grip that is hard to take each and everytime you will have problems. A grip that is done without having to try to get into each and every time is the best for the individual. How many times do you see someone that is constantly messing with their hand position? I have seen many. Remember a grip for you and the hands you have and one that you can take each and every time you shoot is the goal not what I do or anyone else does. You are the shooter and therefore the holder of said firearm. That is what to remember.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Guys: the way these different guns recoil is all about the weight and barrel length. 329's are like 26 oz, the L frame M69 is about 36 oz and the MG is a little more. The ones with the shortest barrels are going to be snappier. (I hate that word) My G23 is snappy, while a G19 is not?

If they all have the same grips, how is that going to affect recoil?

???

Randy

[44MAG#1]

Recoil????

[Hardcast]

Recently my model 29 cylinder came back from Doug and I just fired a couple mid-range loads through it. Even with light loads, I'm glad I put the X frame grips on it first. Going to load a bunch more for some more steel target banging. I will have to sell a bunch of Glocks(9 guns and 2 complete lowers) to build up the gun fund before I can buy a 69. But I already have a set of X frame grips for it. :) I appreciate all the input from you guys.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

There were/are S&W 296, 396 and 696's. All are 5 shot 44 Specials on the L-frame. I have a concealed hammer scandium 296. The 396 has an exposed /'normal' hammer and is also scandium. There is a also a stainless 696. Production runs were small.