Hey Garand Guys

[cabezaverde]

Has anyone seen the article in the Garand Collectors Journal about it being OK to shoot commercial 30-06 in a Garand without an adjustable gas plug?

[Winger Ed.]

I haven't read it, but suspect its in the category of 'it'll work fine for a while', sort of like driving your car at 110mph.
Or it'll be conditional on using lighter bullets.

The commercial ammo warning didn't come about by someone's arbitrary statement.

I sold my Garand awhile back when I was thinning the herd.
When I first got it, and saw the price of new operating rods, I didn't even consider going beyond the
old school recommendations, or try to make it into a .300WinMag.

[tunnug]

People with Garands need to educate themselves by reading the "why"s" of you shouldn't use modern ammo, there are lots of actual articles by knowledgeable people out there, I'm not talking about someones blog of their opinion, or their posting on youtube.

[cabezaverde]

I will have to scan the article.

It talks about the refinements of measuring pressure and op rod speed. This is not a blog or someones youtube post.

[Outpost75]

The correct way to do this would be to mount a strain gage near the muzzle of a bolt action rifle, in a location which corresponds to the placement of the gas port on the M1 Garand barrel. The Oehler 43 system requires about 10,000 psi to activate the strain gage, if memory serves, and for the Garand you want a pressure out at the gas port of 10,000+/-2000 psi. Using the old style government combination breech/port pressure barrel, the radial copper system was used, having the "C" size .225x.400" copper for the chamber pressure and the old, no longer made "D" size .146x400" (pistol) copper for the port pressure. The WW2 spec was 8,000+/-2000 cup (radial copper), but the number obtained by the older method is not equivalent to modern psia.


Old thread here has relevant discussion, including some measurements by Larry Gibson.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?309513-What-is-the-correct-port-pressure-for-the-Garand

[Walks]

I have a friend that bought some Federal .30-06 Match Ammo that said Suitable for Garand, 168gr Sierra MatchKings.
But that was 10yrs ago. And He passed shortly there after. So I have no idea if it worked as it was supposed to.

I have always loaded what my Dad taught me. H4895-49grs w/150gr bullet.

Never dumb enough to shoot Commercial Hunting Ammo in My Beautiful 1944 Winchester.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'm hung up on IMR-4895 and 48.0 gr. I did shoot several boxes of PMC FMJ through mine years ago without seeming ill effect, but I think it was loaded to duplicate military issue.

[Jack Stanley]

I don't stray vary far from IMR 4895 and the charges posted here for a good reason . I've straightened an op rod someone else bent ......once , I'm not excited about doing that again .

Get an adjustable gas plug and play all you want . They were made for a reason .

Jack

[30calflash]

There's a lot of info out there, I wouldn't run hunting ammo w/o the adjustable plug. Another option is an extended plug that increased the volume of the gas cylinder. saw one and it worked well.

Proper lubrication with grease is essential for the longevity of the rifle. Again there is a lot of info out there.

[seetrout]

I only run milsurp ammo or equivalent handloads and I still bought an adjustable plug because it was cheap. No matter what I am shooting I can dial it in to function reliable, but softly. Compared to an op-rod it's really cheap insurance and then you can run any ammo if you so choose. For instance if, on a whim, you wanted to take it to Alaska to hunt Caribou and use commercial ammo...

[Sig556r]

There are available commercial ammo fitted for milspec M1 & M1A that cycles reliably & so are handloads such as those specified for M1 in Hornady book.
Fast ones may run on your M1 with spec gas plug but will eventually catchup with the op rod, so why risk it?
Not a big fan of adjustable gas plug.

[jimb16]

4895 or 4064 powder military duplication loads only for me. Been shootin' mine for years with no problems and don't anticipate any either.

[TNsailorman]

I run IMR 4895 in Garands and never go over 48.0 grains. I love my Garands far more than I worship at the feet of the velocity gods. I have found that a 147 grain FMJ or a Hornady 150 gr. JSP will run with those loads just fine. I have never put a commercial load in one of my Garands and will not. 2600 to 2700 fps will put a deer down even if it is wearing Kevlar. I don use a Garand for hunting but even if I did, I would not load some of the hot loads and powders listed in reloading manuals. These are almost universally tailored to the bolt action rifle. And I suspect that commercial ammo is also loaded that way. I have seen IMR 4064 listed in some manuals with specific loads for the 168 grain match bullet. I assume that those loads were developed using a Garand but do not know if this is the case. OP rods are hard to come by and expensive when you find one. It does not make sense to me to try and see how much punishment it will take before damage occurs. my .02 anyway, james

[samari46]

Way back when I was at the Huston gun show where dealers sell just about anything firearm related. One dealer was selling op rods for $50 each. Bought two after checking the piston diameter and bends. That day has long passed and last op rod I saw went for $165. As far as the diet I have my Garand on, only Lake City surplus M2 ball or 47 grs IMR 4895 with a 147 FMJ or 150 grs soft point. Frank

[Nick Adams]

I only run milsurp ammo or equivalent handloads and I still bought an adjustable plug because it was cheap. No matter what I am shooting I can dial it in to function reliable, but softly. Compared to an op-rod it's really cheap insurance and then you can run any ammo if you so choose. For instance if, on a whim, you wanted to take it to Alaska to hunt Caribou and use commercial ammo...

The adjustable M1 gas plug, like the one Schuster Mfg. sells, simply gives the Garand owner a wider versatility of use for his rifle, especially if he wants to hunt with it, which many do. I know a few guys who go deer hunting with their M1s every year.

There are Alaskans who hunt with their M1s too - Caribou, Moose, etc. - or keep their M1 loaded with the heavy 220gn 30-06 ammo for 'bear defense.' The adj. gas plug is ideal these purposes, since you can dial-in any commercial ammo for the type of hunting you're doing, and your M1's OP rod and gas system remain protected.

In the lower 48, I might use 165gn SP hunting ammo on deer, but then use something heavier and hotter, topped with 180gn to 220gn bullets, on the bigger, tougher critters, like elk, black bear, or for sure, hogs.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's an impressive photo, Nick. Thanks for posting it. :grin:

[cabezaverde]

Ok, I finally got around to scanning the article from the Garand Collectors Journal.

If you are interested in a copy, drop me a PM with your email address. Interesting reading. (But I do have an adjustable plug in mine).

[cabezaverde]

I have sent the article to a few who requested it. Will be interested in thoughts and opinions.

[Texas by God]

Nick Adams- that's a great family photo! Daddy and Mama Hog wth the young uns. Dead like they oughta be. I bet that was fun with the M1[emoji3]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[dale2242]

I killed a black bear with my M1 a couple of years ago.
I only shoot loads recommended for M1 Garands in my gun...dale

[Nick Adams]

Nick Adams- that's a great family photo! Daddy and Mama Hog wth the young uns. Dead like they oughta be. I bet that was fun with the M1

Many examples of guys taking critters with their M1s ...

This pic was posted on the CMP forums some years back. The hunter harvested an elk with his M1 chambered in .35 Whelen.

[Nick Adams]

Deer too ...

[Nick Adams]

This pic appeared in an issue of the GCA Journal ...

A young Texan took this hoggie with one shot from over 110-yds away with an M1 that he and his Dad had built in their work shop ...

[nicholst55]

I read the article over the weekend, and found it very interesting and thought-provoking. What the author(s) state(s) is true - the M1 was originally designed around M1 Ball ammo. One of the numerous changes that John Garand had to make was to make the rifle function correctly with 'other' ammo, like M2 Ball and Armor Piercing. Based on the testing that was performed for the article, I will give strong consideration to shooting one of my M1s with commercial ammo (or ammo loaded with something besides 4895 or 4064).

[higgins]

I'm curious. Did the GCA article say it was alright to shoot commercial ammo in general terms or did it recommend commercial loads loaded specifically for Garands, of which there are some around? When commercial ammo comes up in these threads the conversation invariably drifts quickly to "hunting" factory loads which may not be the same as Garand-appropriate factory loads.

[cabezaverde]

I read the article over the weekend, and found it very interesting and thought-provoking. What the author(s) state(s) is true - the M1 was originally designed around M1 Ball ammo. One of the numerous changes that John Garand had to make was to make the rifle function correctly with 'other' ammo, like M2 Ball and Armor Piercing. Based on the testing that was performed for the article, I will give strong consideration to shooting one of my M1s with commercial ammo (or ammo loaded with something besides 4895 or 4064).

Finally a comment from someone who read the article.

[cabezaverde]

I'm curious. Did the GCA article say it was alright to shoot commercial ammo in general terms or did it recommend commercial loads loaded specifically for Garands, of which there are some around? When commercial ammo comes up in these threads the conversation invariably drifts quickly to "hunting" factory loads which may not be the same as Garand-appropriate factory loads.

Short answer is anything factory loaded under 180 grains.

[Nick Adams]

Short answer is anything factory loaded under 180 grains.

... if you're using the GI gas plug.

Or you could install an adjustable gas plug, like the Schuster Mfg. unit, and then safely shoot any commercial '06 ammo, including the heavy hunting loads with the 180gn, 200gn, or 220gn bullets.

Install the adj. plug in place of the GI plug, get out to the range, and dail in the load using the adjustment screw inside the plug.

You turn that screw bit-by-bit (in 1/8 - 1/4 turn increments) until there's just enough gas impacting the piston of the op rod to reliably cycle the action shooting that load.

If you change over to a different hunting load with, say, a lighter 165gn bullet, you may have to re-adjust the screw.

Also, opening or closing the screw either way - 1/4 to 1/8 of a turn - will tighten or open group sizes. So if, like me, you reload for your M1, the adj. plug can actually help fine tune a handload to your rifle.

I use the Schuster M1 adj. plug in my 18.25" 'Tanker' M1 and shoot Remington's 220gn Core Lokts and a 220gn handload over Varget with zero issues.

[Pirate69]

I also read the article. It seemed to fly into the face of everything that I have ever heard about using commercial ammo in a M1 Garand. Using QuickLoad, I looked to see if I could find a load, using a 180 grain bullet and a max chamber pressure of 60,000 psi, that would generate a muzzle pressure greater than 10,000 psi. Looking at a number of slow burning powders, I could not find a combination that presented excessive chamber pressure and port pressure using an 180 grain bullet. That was a little surprising to me. So I guess commercial ammo with 180 grain bullets, or less, may be suitable for a Garand, if you like.

We are really looking at two pressures of concern here. The first is chamber pressure. It should be noted that the M2 Ball ammo max chamber pressure is 50,000 psi. The 30-06 Springfield round has a SAAMI pressure of 62,000 psi. The pressure difference between the rounds may decrease, using commercial ammo, the life of your Garand over time. It definitely will not increase it.

Secondly, there is port pressure. If I recall correctly, the spec is around 8,000 psi plus or minus 2,000 psi. A 168 grain bullet and 48.0 grains of Varget yields approximately 8236 psi. A 152 grain bullet and 56 grains of IMR 4350 yields approximately 8,983 psi. Without knowing what powders are used in commercial ammo, it has to be assumed that the chamber pressure is SAAMI pressure or less. Port pressure is unknown but it seems doubtful that the pressure will be excessive based on information provided.

Having said all of that, I treat my Garands as gently as possible. I limit both chamber and port pressure to preserve the rifles. I guess it is just a personal preference as to what you want to shot in your Garand. I learn something new everyday.

[6mm win lee]

Has anyone seen the article in the Garand Collectors Journal about it being OK to shoot commercial 30-06 in a Garand without an adjustable gas plug?

You may want to watch this video on shooting ammo in the Garand. He seems to make a lot of sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSdswZHJUc

[thegatman]

I am looking to use 125 grains spitzers in the Garand. Using H4895 powder, can I still use 47 grains or should I increase it. No adjustable gas plug on this Garand.

[Ecramer]

I read the article and was surprised by its conclusions. For the nonce I'm still restricting my Garands to ammo that meets the older criteria, using stick powders and restricted to the lower pressures. It's nice to know that if the "zombie apocalypse" hits I'm not restricted to it.

[Ecramer]

I read the article and was surprised by its conclusions. For the nonce I'm still restricting my Garands to ammo that meets the older criteria, using stick powders and restricted to the lower pressures. It's nice to know that if the "zombie apocalypse" hits I'm not restricted to it.

[Pirate69]

I am looking to use 125 grains spitzers in the Garand. Using H4895 powder, can I still use 47 grains or should I increase it. No adjustable gas plug on this Garand.

You should be around a chamber pressure of 32,600 psi. Port pressure around 8,000 psi and a velocity of 2,700 fps.

[thegatman]

I found a load on the CMP forum. 125 grain spitzer with 46.5 grains of H4895.

[tejano]

http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition

I thought it was interesting. I have 3 M1 rifles. I have the schuster plug in one of them and it works well.

[cabezaverde]

Does anyone have a PDF of the Schuster plug adjustment instructions?

[thegatman]

Does anyone have a PDF of the Schuster plug adjustment instructions?
Check your email.

[thegatman]

Tested those spitzer loads today. Very accurate for an old rifle.

[kerplode]

Interesting article, but I think I'll continue to use Garand-specific loads in my rifles. They're old, and parts are getting more expensive...No reason to not treat them gently. Especially since I can still load or buy good Garand-specific ammo.

I took the CMPs Advance Maintenance Course last year, and we discussed this topic a bit. The armorers said that they don't really see bent op rods from commercial ammo, but they have repaired quite a few customer guns where commercial ammo use resulted in cracking the heal of the receiver due to the bolt bashing into it more forcefully. As a result, they recommend against anything not specifically loaded for the Garand.

[alamogunr]

Apologies to cabezaverde. I got the article and have read it thru at least twice. Being a newby to Garands, it is taking awhile to digest everything. Meanwhile I ran across a reference to a book I had not heard of before. "The Essential M1 Garand" by Jim Thompson. I ordered it and it was delivered yesterday. Quite a lot for me to take in, so I'm going slowly. The only experience I had with Garands was in college in ROTC. Anybody remember when that was compulsory? Anyway this was in 1961/1962 and although having to work off demerits by end of school year cleaning of the M1's, I don't remember much of practical use.

But I do thank you for sending the article. It is going into my M1 file.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I have not read the file , on another note have only one M1 as I gave my father the best one I could get years ago , gave the son and the son in law each their own also , the youngest son will get mine or my fathers in time as he would be hard pressed at 8 to put it to practical use , M1 it is a good gun , my father used one in korea and he has nothing but praise for them , he also liked the BAR and he used m1 carbine though technically it was a m3 with infrared , will have to find the article and read it .

[FLINTNFIRE]

Thank you for the article , was a good read and does provide information to help one determine what they wish to load and shoot , thanks for taking the time to post and to send the article

[LeonardC]

Long time lurker, first post. Thanks to all you fine people for sharing your knowledge and experience.

The GCA article talked about in this thread is actually the second in a "series" of articles about what ammo to use (or not use) in the Garand. This was Winter 2019, Volume 34, Issue 1. This was kind of a rebuttal to a previous article warning that using some types of ammo could damage the M1.

GCA Journal Volume 34, Issue 2, Spring 2020, has the 3rd article in the "series". Gus Fisher, Jim Swartz and Rick Gushman wrote this article. Gus Fisher is a legend in the M1 Garand crowd. They make the case that using ammo not specifically manufactured for use in the M1 may damage the rifle. The focus of all these articles is using factory loaded jacketed bullets and higher pressure loads with slower burning powders. I don't remember any mention of cast bullets in the articles.

I only use Lake City or my handloads (within the recommended parameters) in my Garands. I would like to branch out using cast loads just for fun.

[country gent]

As I was told the garand was set up to work within a set pressure at the gas port. Powders were to be slower than IMR **** ( dont remember the number for sure at the moment) the 4895s and IMR 4064 were very popular in this range. The risk was bent op rods.

The military surplus ammos should be loaded to the correct port pressure for this rifle. Thou I have always been leery f the special ball loads with 173 grn bullet in 30-06, machine gun ammo. Loaded to the 2650-2750 fps range with the above powder warning should be safe loads. Several manuals no have "service rifle" sections in them to guide.

With cast bullets getting to where the rifle functions and feed may be more an issue.

One very rough indicator is to shot a block of lake city and leave lay then your loads and see where the empties match up ejecting on a soft surface

[Stewbaby]

The CMP just cautions to stay at 180 gr or below with commercial ammo. Good springs and a good grease job are the most important items that are most often overlooked.

From CMP:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200804/2fd54622687ef423c6c5943678c3c430.jpg

[Uncle Grinch]

There was an article in a recent American Rifleman magazine about updating the Garand and one section caught my eye.

Many modern factory loads exist for the .30-’06 Sprg. that exceed the specifications set for military ammunition originally intended for the Garand. To take advantage of some of them, and to avoid damage to the rifle, a change to the gas system is necessary. A few different concepts have been devised, usually involving modification of the gas plug. I chose the Ported Gas Plug ($40) by Garand Gear, an install-it-and-forget-it solution.
Two Garand gas plugs on white background.

In essence, its hollowed-out base increases the gas cylinder’s overall volume, thereby effectively flattening the pressure curve of propellant gases acting on the piston at the end of the operating rod. Think of it as insurance against a bent operating rod and limited license to explore a wider range of ammunition offerings. Installation simply involves turning out the original gas plug and turning in the new one, which accepts 1/4”-square socket drive bit.

[fastdadio]

As the debate carries on, I'll stick with the starting level loads for service rifles and light cast loads in my Garand. I have other rifles if I feel the need for speed. Here's some load data for those who wish to play;
https://www.bearblain.com/Service%20Rifle%20Loadings.html

[Stewbaby]

That’s from the Hornady manual. Too conservative, or at least don’t hesitate to work up to its max if trying to duplicate M1, M2 and M72 load performance. The lawyers won in that Hornady load testing on starting loads and to some extent on max.

I do agree the Master Po data is aged and does need to be reduced a couple of grains for starters.

What the Garand was designed around (AP being a major player in WW2 Garands at 2700+ FPS):

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200809/57c7f77bcceae0a8d24ee336dac22844.jpg

[M1fuzz]

IIRC John Garand was first having his rifle working on the .276 Pedersen round. This changed to a 172 grain 30-06 round then finally the 150 grain bullet as specified by the US Army.

If you really want people’s head to spin get a Criterion Barrel in 6.5 Swede for your M1 Garand. I missed out on their last run but, will get one on the next go around and put it on one of my Garands.

[madsenshooter]

Seems to me the 6.5x55 would cause some problems in Garand clips as it is larger in diameter. I know partial sizing of 30-06 causes problems in mine. Makes the clips a tight fit in the receiver.

[Ozark mike]

Heavy loads will batter the mechanism its been awhile since i played with a garand but my uncle ruined my 7400 rem that my grandpa bought brand new before he died by shooting heavy factory loads in it busted the face of the bolt

[M1fuzz]

A little tight but it works. Guy on YouTube has videos on it. And there is some reading on the net about it.

[Paf]

Criterion still has 6.5 X 55 garand barrels for sale on their web site. I bought one earlier this year. Need to take the time to build it into a rifle!

[mac1911]

I am not one to load heavy rounds for the M1, ok fine you shoot out 600 plus yards you might want a stout 168-175 grain bullet and a 2700fps velocity.
with any load delivering more Gas volume and Pressure than needed you can have problems. Wear and tear , Bent rods and cracked receiver heals.

All of my Garands are shot at 100-200 yards. I load all my ammo to a closer to minimum spec. Not only does it cut down on recoil, wear and tear I find better accuracy at some lower powder charge nodes. I fopr the life of me still cant understand why you would shoot the heavy hunting loads through the garand ( exception for hunting but I dont get that choice either) I have not seen any "hunting" ammo that is less expensive than M1 safe options.
As for cast loads, If your approaching cast load pressures that will damage a M1 through the port pressure you must be using a very slow powder ?

[Buckshot]

...............I have a bit of cast usage in my Garand. This rifle was from the first importation from Korea.

http://www.fototime.com/502FC38F4D32C93/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/0FB381C79CB2E1A/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/C4E99F70D3B92BD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/479603113BC0E62/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/7D555CD4F32E5B1/standard.jpg

................ I had an 01 FFL for 20 years and this was close to one of my first purchases. When it arrived it was so butt ugly I figured I'd have to shoot it at the range while it was wrapped in a couple paper grocery bags. The stock was a beat to heck Beech or Birch thing with a big '93' painted in red on the buttstock with a 1.5" brush. The top handguard was a piece of paper thin Walnut that was apparently 'Boned' until it was as slick as fiberglass and as thin as a couple pieces of paper. The forward handguard was a piece of raw beech/birch (no finish) that stuck out 1/2 proud all over.

I forget from whom I purchased the NOS wood. Probably GPC. In any event it was a VAST improvement from the 'As Delivered' specimen. I was told it was the later "Fat Wood" stock? Dunno, but that's what I was told. If anyone deciphers barrel markings, let me know. IIRC, one Garand aficionado at the range pulled the op rod back and said it was Navy re-barreled in 1965? However it WAS a Korean re-import.

Fired 11-93, Sierra 168gr HPBT match, Rem 9 1/2 primer, 55.0 grs surplus WC852 ball FC cases 3x fired, 187 grs, FL sized. Fired off the bench@ 50 yards #1 Grp = 2436 fps, SD 20.8, 1.25" / 5 rnds.

Same as above 2452 fps SD 5.7 2nd grp .75" / 4 rnds, 0ne 1.25" low of the grp.

Same as above 2446 fps SD 7.7 grp

Same as above 3rd grp @ 100 yards 3 x 1.5" 4=2.0" 5th is a mystery :-)

Fired 9-25-95:

Lyman 311284 weight "As Cast" 216gr, 40.0 grs IMR 3031 powder, WLRP, LC 45 cases 192/193 gr. OAL: 3.237". Avrg vel: 2213 fps, ES: 15.3, SD: 6.1 50 yd accuracy was running about 2"/5 rnds.

Elevation setting for 50 yards center hit = 100 yards. Elevation setting to hit 200 yard 8" plate = 325 yards.

Forty rounds total fired, ejection was to right front. No problem working over the 200 yard plate. Fun load, your mileage may vary. Notes state "1st firing of cast lead in this rifle, no leading visible in bore after firing, none at cleaning but several black patches produced. Lube was Javelina (NLA as original) then thinned Lee Liquid Alox.

................Buckshot

[Ozark mike]

I likey