Kalispell Gun Show

[waksupi]

I went to the gun show yesterday, and managed to spend a little money, but it was hard to do. I did see a nice .30-30 Savage bolt action that kind of turned my head, but the guy was wanting a bit too much.

I came across board member Old Vic, and he showed me some of the molds he is making, and a thick sprue plate he is working on. He had a fair amount of molds for sale, and I ended up getting an RCBS 30-180-FN two holer for a very good price. Also, a can full of .35 LBT bullets.

I also came across a pound of 2400 for $12, some dental picks, and then a friend surprised me with an exceptional deal on a Browning HiPower, Hungarian made. Deputy Al says made on FN machinery, definitely nice quality.

I am wondering if it will be cost effective to load for the 9mm, considering the low price of new ammo? Loading those little cartridges, with my big fingers, is not all that appealing. Whatcha think?

[KCSO]

Here's my take on 9mm's

Most of the surplus 9mm stuff is cheap and dirty. You can never really tell if it is or isn't corrosive and most of it doesn't shoot to poa compared to my duty loads. So I save the surplus for close range blasting and full auto work. I load a Lee 124 T/C bullet behind 5.0 of Unique for serious practice as this load shoots to the same POA as my duty load. In addition it will hold right at 2" at 25 yards and most of the surplus will do good to go 4". Hey it could be worse, I have a friend that loads 25ACP!

Your HP is a good one. I have tuned several of these and can usually get the trigger pull down to 4# crisp. I can't see the sense in paying $679.99 for a Browning that says in small print, parts made in belgium and assembled in Portugal. The Hungarian ones with a little smoothing will shoot just as good and just as reliable as the others. The best HP I ever had was a Argie and I foolishly traded it for a Glock. Now all I have left is my Browning and it doesn't shoot as good.

[TCLouis]

I can't imagine fiddling with 9mm unless I had a progressive press to feed it. Don't know about accuracy of the 9, never think of it in those terms, but a wonder 9 can burn a lot of reloading in a hour or two.

Heck 44 Mag convined me to go progressive when it took a LONG TIME to load 200 rounds and one afternoons plinking and they were gone!!
Hey loaded with the product of the "Silver Stream" and the 44 is a plinking gun too, but like its bigger cousins, can be CRANKED up to full power when needed!

[9.3X62AL]

I could almost say "Ditto" to KCSO's post.

I would avoid the surplus stuff. W-W white box, Rem cream-colored box, and Federal American Eagle all are decent low-cost ammo sources. The WWWB in 9mm runs down around $8.50-$9.00/50 at shops in this area sometimes.

I loaded 9mm for the same reasons KCSO stated--POI matching for practice. After 1997 I discontinued use of the 9mm for work use--one too many autopsies of 9mm recipients with 8-12 hits required, and way too many 45 recipients with 1-2 per customer getting the job done. I can take a hint.

The 9mm work morphed into an accuracy chase and barrel leading prevention crusade. In the midst of this (~1999), I had the chance to shoot some VERY nice 9mm's set up for target work, a box-stock Springfield 1911A1 and a couple Beretta 92's with Bar-Sto barrels. The Springer got close to 1" at 25 yards for me, and its owner met and beat that standard off the bags. The Berettas were nearly as good. The common thread was minimum chamber dimensions, proper groove diameter (.355") and boolits at .356". Good/well-fitted barrels, in other words--and slower twists. Whether any of those elements will be present in a service-grade 9mm autopistol is a crap-shoot.

So--is the 9mm worth reloading for? Well, I do it--so, I guess so. The 9mm is really at its best with jacketed bullets in that 1-10" twist that most of them use, and most barrels are wide of the .355" mark dimensionally. Many are chambered generously, too. So the intrinsic accuracy of the pieces may not be there for the reloader to exploit in many factory guns--like it would be in a mid- to high-end 1911A1 in 45 ACP. And that's all right--these pistols were designed for close-range self-defense, where the 4" groups at 25 yards that we abhor just happen to be only 2" from point of aim at that distance--a thing that becomes meaningless at most pistol fight distances--7 yards or closer.

I do believe the 9mm caliber can be intrinsically accurate, if the same care is taken with components as with platform integrity. I have been able to get in the 2" range with both of my SIG-Sauer pistols that feature wide chambers and .356"+ grooves/1-10" twist with cast--using .357"-sized boolits of fairly hard metal and soft lube. I think the 40 S&W can be similarly tamed--and I KNOW the 10mm can shoot well--so it isn't a pressure or a twist question so much as an assembly integrity issue for both platform and ammo.

I think for 9mm reloading to make sense from a dollars and cents perspective, it takes cast boolits to reduce costs sufficiently to justify the time spent in assembly. Cast boolits in the 9mm aren't an "automatic" in terms of accuracy, it takes a little tweaking and chances are the off-the-shelf commercial boolits won't fit well. If the pistol/caliber is to be carried as felon repellent, use +P or European-intensity loads with JHP bullets. My SIG-Sauers now house Speer Gold Dot 124 +P's for social purposes. Real ammunition makes the 9mm into viable defensive caliber, but such consumables are hard to find and pricey when located.

[JDL]

My first metallic cartridge that I reloaded for was a 9MM. I had an Astra 400 that I'd bought from Montgomery Wards for $29 IIRC, back in the mid 60's. I scrounged up ww for boolits, bought a Lyman 356402 mold, and was in hog heaven for a year.:-) Shooting was cheap, but I decided I needed more accuracy, so I traded my Astra + boot for a S&W K-38 Masterpiece. I sold the mold and bought a 358432 and we've been together ever since.:-D Just my opinion, but I don't think it's worth it to reload for my 9MM. -JDL

[MT Gianni]

The advantages are even more cheap loads can be made, much better accuracy than the surplus and the personal satisfaction. The disadvantages are time spent, case loss; [I lose about 2-3 out of each 25-50 I shoot in a concrete floor range with gravel in the rear and grass growing up through it in pockets] That and the fact that it is probably inadequate for many social situations in NW MT, bears, heavy winter clothes. It remains a lot of fun to shoot and handy to have. Gianni.

[versifier]

Mostly we just stash the better brass, figuring that it won't be cheap forever. But I do load a few thousand rounds of it each year, mostly to try out new components. It's not really cost effective, especially with the easy availability of USA made ammo, but that doesn't mean it isn't fun to play with.

[StarMetal]

JDL

That sure was a step up in accuracy...right to the top!!

Hey I think alot of folks here are missing the idea. To me it's not the idea of accuracy or a good hunting load, it's the idea of enjoying shooting. Don't get me wrong, there are guns that I expect accuracy out of and guns that I expect to perform good hunting. Take my 30 Luger and my P38 Walther....I simply enjoy shooting them. Cast makes them cheap and fun to shoot. To go a step further to prove my point, take the folks that own machine guns. You think they enjoy the for their accuracy or hunting abilities? No, heck no, they are a blast to just shoot.

Joe

[BruceB]

G'day, y'all!

I'm so mentally warped by years of lead exposure that I simply CAN'T (won't!) buy ammunition in any caliber for which I can make the stuff, and that specifically includes the caveat that cast boolits CAN be used in any new-to-me caliber which might be under consideration.

So, I load cast-bullet 9mm ammo. The only commercial pistol loads I buy are top-grade factory rounds for my concealed-carry guns (Federal 129JHP .38 for snubguns, Cor-Bon 115 9mm and 230 Hydra-Shok .45 ACP). If I happen to carry a HEAVY CCW revolver out of town, cast bullets go along for the ride in .357 and .44 magnums.

In the recent and extensive 9mm thread, several folks noted the wide variations in 9mm brass from the dozens of sources available, and they are correct. They also bemoan the resultant variations in capacity, neck tension, etc etc, and they are correct in this, as well. Large quantities of this assorted brass are once-fired and free for the picking-up at our local range. Only .40s are more common.

I pay NO attention to sorting cases by headstamp when setting up to load, but rather do the sorting afterwards while gauging and boxing-up the loaded rounds. (I run every single round through a case-gauge. Rejections are very rare, but I'd prefer discover a problem round myself, BEFORE the gun finds it!) This sorting by headstamp minimizes brass variations within a given box, bag or other container. For my mostly defensive-shooting practice, this ammo suffices very well. The loads are not elevated to the point where variations in capacity, bullet pull, etc. are going to put me in risky pressure territory.

My cast-boolit 9mm ammo allows pretty consistent hits on IPSC and similar silhouettes at 100 yards from a 3.25" autoloader barrel when I do my part correctly, and that is plenty good, Kemo Sabe.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I agree with most of you on loading the 9 mm. My 9mm is a Springfield Ultra Compact 3.5". It is my primary carry gun because it is light enough and compact enough I ALMOST forget I have it, while meeting my minimum social purposes requirements. According to a certain LEO that I know, there are not too many flies on the Speer 124 gr. HPs. The only shooting I do with my 9 is at fifteen yd. and closer. All I need is minute of bad guy accuracy, and SHOOTING TO THE SIGHTS. Thanks to Onceabull making me an offer I couldn't refuse, I have a NEI four-holer for a Lyman 356402 TC clone. Over 4.3 gr. Green Dot this boolit shoots to the same POI as the above Speer ammo. Right now I am probably using 100 rounds a month, so haven't felt the need for high volume production. If I ever get the itch to shoot a bunch of 9mm, I know Dillon can fix me up with a conversion kit for my Square Deal for less than the cost of 1000 rounds of slave-produced, Chicom ammo that I wouldn't run through my gun. Do you REALLY trust the People's Liberation Army with valuable parts of your body?

[waksupi]

I don't look at the 9 as something to use for social interaction. Just for play. I ran a magazine of Ruskie Silver Bears through it this morning. I can get this for $6.25/50 around here. At forty yards, first shot took the plate out of my bullet trap. Shot a few more at the outside plate, all hits, and then worked on the chain hanging in the trap. Got a couple more hits. This thing shoots good!

Jim, any tuning tips?

[The Nyack Kid]

Now were did you find that RCBS mold ?!?!?! it must not have been there friday , all i saw where some lee muzzle loader boolit molds. i got in early friday the only thing there that i whated was a new 1895 405 winny.

[waksupi]

Kid, that's why I never got to the show on Friday. Not all the exhibitors are set up yet. Old Vic was set up in the SW corner of the building. Since he is from Plains, he may not have come up until Saturday.

[KCSO]

You bet...
I will have to e mail you my BHP super tune. I learned this working with a Browning expert whith a BIG mustache. On the Hungarians the trigger will smooth out a lot by the time you hit 1000 rounds, if you can afford that route.
You can, with a little work, get the trigger to 4.5 with the mag safety and under 4 without it and crisp. The only problem is remembering the right order to get the sucker apart. For example the safety holds the hammer in and you need to swing the ejector down so the safety will slide out. I also have a new HP. I sold that pesky Glock I traded for and picked up another Browning. A dealer friend had it on sale. It is a 40 S and W, not my favorite caliber, but it was 78.00 cheaper than the same gun in 9MM. I am tuning it today. Just what I need is another caliber to load for, but I still have 40# of brass to sort and 75% of it will be 40.

[The Nyack Kid]

I know better than to go on fridays but i had a load of stuff to take care that day that i couldn't do saterday .and i didn't what to run all the way back into town just to go to the show .
the way things work is ,if i go friday, no one has anything .if i go saterday or sunday then they all sold what i wanted ,the day before . i rarely get excited anymore over the Kalispell shows . Missula is the place to go IMO.

[9.3X62AL]

KCSO--

Having no experience with the BHP x 40 S&W, I would be interested in your impressions of the platform after some range time with it. It seems like the most perfect blending of caliber and platform ever devised, except possibly a well-made 1911A1 Commander in 45 ACP for social purposes. Or maybe SIG P-220 x 45 ACP.

You get my drift.

[StarMetal]

I understand as good as the BHP is, that the platform is not rated for a very high consumptions of 9mm ammo. With that said I ask myself what is the life span of a BHP in 40 S&W.

Jim you might know the answer to this being you trained some under the guidance of a BHP Guru. Can you enlighten us?

Joe

[waksupi]

One thing that has emerged today, is failure to extract, twice, on the seventh round. I suspect this is just a break in thing, and will probably heal itself. I took it apart, and it wasn't gummy in the extractor, and the whole thing needed a bit of lubrication, which will most likely also help.

[45 2.1]

I understand as good as the BHP is, that the platform is not rated for a very high consumptions of 9mm ammo. With that said I ask myself what is the life span of a BHP in 40 S&W.

Jim you might know the answer to this being you trained some under the guidance of a BHP Guru. Can you enlighten us?

Joe

The South American countries have a reputation for breaking high powers, but they shoot hot ammo also. At American loaded levels, High powers last a very long time. The 40 S&W version has VERY BRISK recoil, I would imagine that the service life is going to suffer in that caliber.

[9.3X62AL]

The South American countries have a reputation for breaking high powers, but they shoot hot ammo also. At American loaded levels, High powers last a very long time. The 40 S&W version has VERY BRISK recoil, I would imagine that the service life is going to suffer in that caliber.

Kinda interesting, that. Similar story with the SIG-Sauer P-226 and P-228 in 9mm, 5K round service life with Euro loads, and who knows how long with USA stuff. SIG-Sauer has changed the slide/bolt arrangement mostly to accomodate the 40 S&W/357 SIG--the 226 now has a one piece bolt/slide assembly, no more bolt retention with roll pins. The 229 and 239 series are likewise.

I suppose if you're thinking of long-term use of high-pressure ammo in the 9mm or using the 40 S&W/357 SIG caliber, a larger/stronger platform might be indicated. I do know that Beretta DOES NOT recommend the 357 SIG after-market barrels on their M-96 pistols. The match-grade 92's I fired used only mid-range loads......sub-sonic 147's at 950 FPS and 125 grain castings at 1050-1100. There were a few kinks in the route to up-sizing 9mm platforms to take the 40 caliber rounds and the bottlenecked 9mm progeny of same, in other words.

Harking back to our earlier thread in which many of us bemoaned the "large for caliber" platform size of the 9mm CCW pistols.......this is the back edge of that sword. Those sub-compacts are great for carrying and light to moderate firing usage, but for sustained firing of large lots of full-bore ammo--something like the Springfield 1911A1 might be a better bet. Just my 2 centavos.

[StarMetal]

This reminds me when I lived in Tulsa and had my FFL and alittle gunsmith business going. Had a friend that wanted 2000 rounds of 9mm, 1000 of which was to be submachinegun ammo. We got to talking about pistols. He said the Beretta was a ***, it wouldn't take the subgun ammo, but Taurus's rendition of the same gun would. He spoke highly of the BHP, but after working on them I don't think they are subject to alot of hot ammo.

Interesting side note. At that same time I had Colt Gold Cup in 45 acp of course, but I had some conversions for it. One was the 38/45 and the other was a 9mm upper. Well my point is that the 9mm slapped that frame alot worse then the 45acp. That's when I started using those little neopreme buffers. Now it depends on what power level I loaded the 38/45 on. Let me tell you that is one sweet caliber, but I find I hardly ever shoot it anymore. Back then I was enamored with it. I managed to shoot one groundhog with it using a 115 gr Sierra hollowpoint movine out pretty close to 1600 fps (not recommended by the way to load it that hot). Boy, there was no difference if that hog would have been shot with a 243.

Joe