A Few Questions That Have Probably Been Asked 100 Times

[ralph029]

Hey folks. I've been reading for a few days now and have some questions. As you all are probably aware, digging for answers can be pretty time consuming.
I am not new to casting and reloading. I have been doing both for better than 30 years for metallic pistol and rifle cartridges. BUT... I have never been one for shotguns, until recently. I've owned several and sold several over the years just because I never really found any love for the smoothbore. Well, that seems to have changed and I'm pretty gung ho on reloading and learning about this part of our sport. Naturally, casting goes hand in hand with reloading (maybe not initially but eventually). So here are some questions:

After reading through the loading data for round balls in the 3rd edition of the Lyman reloading manual:
There is only .690 round ball info listed. Is there a different source that lists all these different round ball sizes I keep reading about here?
I also noticed that unlike metallic reloading, there is no range on the powder amounts. Since just lower FPS does not equate to less recoil and I did not see muzzle velocity data, what are the best indicators for reduced or increased recoil?

Gates recommends .003" over bore diameter. Is this ball and wad measurement? Is it as simple as putting them together and measure with a micrometer?

Bore and swaging...
I've been casting a long time so I get sizing, but swaging seems to be a slightly different animal. I've looked around on Corbin's sight and if that is the only option then Track of the Wolf is going to get A LOT of business from me. Do you slug a shotgun barrel like you do a rifle or pistol barrel to determine sizing, or do you simply measure the muzzle? I am reloading for a Nova with no choke to start. Once sizing is determined can you simply cast round balls and match the proper size wads to get to that .003"?

One more question...
In some of the loads I read and in some of the posts here, I saw some loads required removing the pedals from the wads. If building a load without pedals, is it a good idea (or necessary) to run the round balls through a Rooster (or your choice of lube) lube bath to provide a little slickness?

Thanks for the help folks!

[longbow]

I'll try to answer a few of your questions anyway.

First as you are probably aware, slug reloading info is sparse compared to birdshot loads. The good news is that if you are not interested in high performance slug loads you can use equal weight slug to birdshot and used birdshot loads safely.

If you want max. velocity then you are going to have to use slug and/or buckshot (equal weight) load data.

I have collected as much slug load info as I could find over many years so at this point am not lacking too much but more is better.

My Lyman manual also lists 0.662" RB load data as well as 0.690" RB load data. The unfortunate thing with the Lyman manuals is that they tend to list only one or two recipes for each ball or slug so very limited info and components to choose from.

I use equal weight slug and replace with round ball as there is more slug load data available than round ball data. So a 0.662" RB in pure lead is exactly 1 oz. so use 1 oz. slug data. A 0.678" RB in WW is about 1 oz. so use 1 oz. slug load data.

For round balls in or on shotcups I recommend using at least one 1/8" nitro card wad under the ball because when 10,000 PSI kicks the wad in the butt it tries to wrap around the ball. It needs extra support to stop that. A small scoop of cornmeal or Cream 'O Wheat on top of the nitro card wad and under the RB also helps.

I am a guy who has had no luck with 0.690" RB's. For the most part the wads I have been able to buy locally are too thick to use with petals and the few wads I have tried with petals thin enough to load 0.690" RB's in sheared petals at firing. Lyman lists load recipes for their Foster slug and I think 0.690" RB's using wads with petals cut off. I have not found that to work well for either. Plus you still need to use a nitro card wad under the RB or the wad tends to fail.

0.678" RB's fit many standard shotcups quite well where 0.662" RB's need a donut wad under them or patching to keep them centered.

0.735" RB's swage to fit at firing and can be quite accurate as in 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. They weigh about 1 3/8 oz. (~580 grs.) though so are fairly heavy. I used Precision Rifle's published load data for their 610 gr. solid slug for my 0.735" RB loads. While 0.735" is well over the 0.003" recommended fit there is little lead at the equator of a ball so they swage easily. A full bore solid slug is a different animal altogether.

Oddly I did not lube these bore diameter balls but did not get any leading at all shooting several hundred over time (15 to 50 a session). However, using a lubed felt or fiber wad under or tumbling the balls in LLA or whatever certainly won't hurt. I'd say any undersize RB like 0.690" shot naked won'[t cause leading but accuracy is likely to be minute of barn at 25 yards too! Bore diameter balls or ball in shotcups with good fit can be quite accurate to at least 50 yards.

That 0.003" fit to bore is a general rule of thumb more for safety I think and it applies to the tightest barrel restriction (choke if there is one). Ajay Madan (SuperBlazingSabots) has posted tons of info on slug/ball/wad to bore fit and he recommends a push through the bore test for smoothbore using about 10 lbs. force if memory serves. I found better results with a lighter slide fit using cloth patched 0.662" RB's in shotcups but that is likely load and gun dependent. Ajay's guidelines are a good place to start.

To get a good ball/wad/bore fit with an undersize ball like 0.662" or 0.678" you can patch with cloth or paper to get correct fit to bore with wads than need it. And yes, you can simply cast round balls and check wads to find an appropriate petal thickness for snug fit to bore if you have a variety of wads you can check. If fit is too tight petals tend to shear. Again, Ajay has posted lots of good info about this so do a search. All wads are not created equal!

So far Blue Dot has been my favourite powder for "high performance" slug/RB loads. My powder choices have been limited to Blue Dot, SR4756, Unique and Green Dot. Unique is a good choice for 1 oz. to maybe 1 1/4 oz. slugs and moderate to fairly high velocity loads. Depends on the performance level you are looking for. Birdshot load data with equal weigh slug is certainly adequate and much easier on the shoulder than high performance slug loads.

I hope that answers a few questions.

I'm sure others will chime in with advice as well.

Longbow

[Outpost75]

The WW2 British Home Guard Manual had detailed instructions for making improvised slug loads from birdshot rounds. Remembering that in UK ball or slug loads were not manufactured for civilian use. Buckshot loads were scarce and relegated to military and law enforcement, so the Home Guard was taught to make do.

The easiest method by far was simply to open the crimp, pour hot wax over the shot to fill up the case and when cooled the assembly works like a big Glaser Safety Slug. Most of the shot goes out the bore in one clump, whereas some of the pellets disperse randomly in a pattern around it. This waxed shot load was said to be effective to 40 yards or more from a choked bore. .

The alternate and preferred "improvised" slug method, if you don't happen to have a round ball or actual slug mold of the correct size, was to use a piece of dowel or broom handle. Whittle and sand it down until it is an easy sliding fit into the muzzle of the tightest choke of your common double gun. Mark with a pencil around its circumference at a depth EQUAL to but not exceeding the dowel diameter, so that you don't make the slug too heavy. You want a slug weight from 1 to 1-1/8oz, or 440-480 grains (30-31 grams) for a 12-ga. Use the rounded wooden mandrel to press into foundry sand to make sand molds. Melt whatever scrap lead water pipe or battery plates you have as well as any lead shot you have emptied out of the shells, then pour the molten lead into your sand molds to cast hemispherical, flatbased slugs.

After you have removed the cast slugs from the molds, file off any flashing at the base, then clean them well with oil and steel wool to remove any sand imbedded into the surface of the casting. For safety sake these oiled, cast slugs MUST be tried for fit in the gun muzzle and should fall entirely through the barrel of their own weight. If only a wee bit tight, such that they can be pushed into the muzzle with thumb pressure only, the oiled slugs can be "sized" by tapping through the choke with capped length of half-inch pipe and mallet until they fall out the breech. Oversized slugs which cannot be forced into the muzzle with thumb pressure only MUST be remelted and cast again, lest you burst the barrel!

Properly sized, oiled slugs can then be inserted back into the charged and wadded shell and cemented in place by dripping melted wax or tallow over it. It is unnecessary to recrimp the end of a paper shell, just trim it off with a knife. This also serves to identify improvised slugs from bird, duck or goose shot.

Waxed-shot loads were said to defeat a residential hardwood door at 25 yards, whereas solid lead cast slugs would shoot through both side doors of an automobile, or through the "boot," penetrating through the seats and dashboard, entering the engine compartment. They also deflate automobile "tyres" if hit.

Accuracy was supposedly adequate to hit a charging Hun silhouette target at 50 yards, firing 6-8" groups using both barrels, given a little practice. "A well managed shotgun wielded by a resolute Home Guardsman invokes terror in the Hun parachutist!"


The following is from a fellow very experienced in shooting round balls in smoothbore flintlock and converted percussion muskets in N-SSA competition. Events are timed, so a compromise must be made between speed and accuracy. He says that soft, pure lead is best, and that patching the ball is not necessary. A pure lead round ball about 0.005" less than bore size will be upset upon discharge of a black powder load to fill the bore.

"My load is 65grains 3f Old Eynsford with a .685 ball dipped in the same lube I use in my rifle musket. In my '42 Macon with .690 bore, this load will put every shot into a playing card at 25yd and hold 4 inches at 50, if the 'nut behind the butt' does his part.

"I've tried the other methods before stumbling onto this load, but it just plain works in my gun. If I had to guess what the most important factor is, that'd be the size of the ball relative to the bore. I have only .005 windage, others who use the file/dimple method, have a looser fit. I tried the file-dimple method and it wasn't satisfactory. Fouling got really hard and accuracy fell off rapidly.

"My smoothbore measures .690" at the muzzle. The ball is .685. No over powder wad. Powder is 65g 3f Old Eysnford. No over ball card. No issues with ball moving off the powder charge, especially after the first shot. My 1:4 olive oil-beeswax musket lube on the back of the ball keeps the fouling soft. I've quickly shot 16 shots in a row without wiping just to see what would happen. Same accuracy as the first shot, not much resistance to ramming. Ran out of ammo and gun was hot to hold at that point. That happens when you're cracking along at 4 shots a minute.

"Procedure to make my "Skirmish" ammo- put 65gr 3f Old E into a plastic cartridge tube. Seat ball halfway into mouth of tube (I go sprue down, but in testing I haven't found any difference in accuracy). Triple dip the exposed part of the ball into musket lube for a good coating on the exposed part of the ball which will be inserted into the muzzle after pouring in the powder.

"To load, pop the ball out of end of tube, dump the powder into the bore, thumb the greased ball into the muzzle (lubed side DOWN to powder), ram full down in one quick stroke, prime and shoot. I can repeat that process until I run out of ammo with no wiping between shots and the accuracy doesn't fall off one bit. Now with the lubed ball to the powder, I don't think I'd want to leave a round in there for very long since it may "kill" some of the powder, but for our speed competition, that's not an issue.

"For shooters not bound to primitive shooting rules, experiment with plastic 12-ga. shot cups which are a good fit in the bore. After inserting the cupped obturator into the muzzle, smear musket lube into the vents of the plastic shot cup, to keep the BP fouling soft, but without contaminating the powder. Use a 16- or 20-ga. card wad and a bit of Cream of Wheat inside the shotcup to give support to the ball, which should be a snug fit in the shotcup. You must experiment with diameter. A 16-ga. round ball generally fits inside a 12-ga. shotcup and safely goes through a full choke breechloader if loading for a modern gun with smokeless. Use common dove, quail, skeet or trap powder charge for a one-ounce shot load with the 16-ga. round ball.


Followup on loading cast lead round balls in 12-ga. from a buddy in Canada:

"I've done well with 0.735" RB's cast of pure lead. My smoothbore is large at 0.733" but I have shot the same load through a rifled gun with 0.727" groove with no problems.

"I've gotten best results using a -plastic gas seal then hard card wad column. I tried plastic wads with the petals cut off but the wad extruded around the ball causing gas seal failures. If you try plastic wads with the petals cut off I'd suggest putting at least one 12 g.a nitro card wad on top then the ball.

"With smaller balls (0.662" or 0.678") loaded into shotcups I get best results using a 16 or 20 ga. nitro card wad (or two) in the bottom of the shotcup then a small 9mm case scoop of Cream 'O Wheat on that then the ball.

"I bought several round ball moulds to experiment with different guns and loads:

- 0.735" used only for cylinder or rifled bores
- 0.715" for Browning BPS with slug & buck barrel I/C choke
- 0.662" because it will safely go through any 12-ga. choke, but is less accurate in any except a full choke.
- 0.678" standard 16-ga. ball is a good fit in most standard 12-ga. shotcups and safe in full choked barrels.

"I got excellent results with the 0.735" RB in cylinder bore and in a rifled gun but worried a bit that one might find its way into a full choked barrel at some point and burst it, so decided to try the 0.678" RB inserted into plastic shotcups. That gave as good groups as the 0.735" RB (4" consistent groups at 50 yards). The 0.678" RB and shot cup is easiest to load."

"I use a nitro card wad or two and a scoop of Cream 'O Wheat under the ball inside the shot cup to provide support and keep the bottom of the shotcup from trying to wrap around the ball. Before doing that accuracy was inconsistent and recovered wads tended to be cracked or distorted and often had blown gas seals."

" As for load data... once you get much over 1 oz. or the 525 gr. Lyman sabot slug that load data is sparse... I use Fiocchi 2 3/4" hulls, Winchester 209 primers, 40 grs. Blue Dot, for 1300 fps. I get a bit twitchy with solid full bore slugs so decided I'd rather use smaller balls in shotcups just in case one ever found itself in a full choked gun... just in case. I've found Blue Dot to be my favourite for slugs of 1 oz. At 1 oz. the Blue Dot charge needs to be high to generate enough pressure to burn well. For lighter loads a faster powder like Unique or Green Dot is better I think. There is lots of load data for 1 oz. slugs using both. The 0.678" RB's are about 1 oz. so lots and lots of 1 oz. slug load data can be used. If you don't want the heavy recoil, just use equivalent weight birdshot load data. "

[ralph029]

longbow & Outpost75, you guys are awesome! Thanks so much for the great info! I really appreciate it. This points me in the right direction.
Homework... Read SuperBlazingSabots. Spend a few $$$ at Track of the Wolf. Add Cream of Wheat to the shopping list.
If I'm understanding correctly, no additional lube needed if my wads keep the pedals. If I remove them, then why not. Lube can't hurt.
What about slugging the barrel though. Neither of you mentioned it. Just go ahead and measure the muzzle and work with that measurement?
If I understand correctly, I can really use an equivalent weight for slug and bird shot data to get my high/low powder charge range?

[Tazlaw]

Your 3rd edition Lyman manual, is it for shotshell reloading? Lyman has a 5th edition for shotgun reloading-I believe it’s the 5th. Anyway I’m sure you know this but thought I’d share just in case.

[ralph029]

Your 3rd edition Lyman manual, is it for shotshell reloading? Lyman has a 5th edition for shotgun reloading-I believe it’s the 5th. Anyway I’m sure you know this but thought I’d share just in case.

I was of the understanding that the 5th edition did not have round ball data. I found a used 3rd edition online cheap, so I ordered it and the 5th edition. Thanks for keeping me honest. I need that from time to time. :evil:

[centershot]

Ralph029, here's a pic from Super Blazing Sabot's thread that may answer your question.
258946

I have shot combinations that were a tad tighter than the above but had no problems. My best load puts five .662" RB's into a jagged 2" hole @ 50 yards. IIRC, that load was .739" in diameter.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?369800-Centershot-Sabots&highlight=centershot+sabots

[ralph029]

Thanks centershot. I will start reading Super Blazing Sabot's stuff in the morning. I really need to read more because I just don't understand why you don't just measure the round ball with the wad and fit it that way? Slugging a barrel is super easy to determine the diameter. Maybe I'm crossing some invisible between smooth bore and metallic that I just don't know about yet. If that's so, I'm sure some one will take me out back and "teach" me the right way, hehehe.

[longbow]

Sorry, yeah forgot to mention the slugging thing. I use an inside mic for most smoothbore checks as it is "close enough". Another good option is to push a 0.735" RB through the bore then mic that so basically typical slugging. If you are using bore diameter lead this is a good idea.

If you are using RB/slug in shotcup with petals then Ajay's push through test is probably the best measure of fit to bore. I've tried mic'ing balls in shotcups but seldom seem to get a good reading. By actually pushing the ball/slug in shotcup through the bore you know whether it free falls, light push fit, hard push fit... actually doesn't fit.

And the fit should be checked at the choke if there is one. If so then the payload will be a loose fit to bore and correct fit at choke. You said you don't have a choke so no problem there.

The type and quality of the wad plays a part as well. I have had no success with 0.690" RB's in any shotcup I have tried (limited choices though) and even with shotcups that fit reasonably well the petals sheared. On the other hand 725 is loading 0.702" RB's into shotcups in a rifled gun no less and getting great results. I'd have to look back but I believe he said he is using Federal wads and from what I have read they are a tough plastic. So, maybe my 0.690" RB's would be successful using Federal wads where they have not been using other wads. I couldn't get any locally so used what was available... and that was when I could cross the border into the States to shop for reloading supplies ~ 911 put a stop to that! I can order in but locally there is little choices. Anyway, point being some things you have to try to see if they work.

Again, I'll suggest going through Ajay's posts on wad slugs/balls and bore fit thoroughly and follow his advice. That is a good starting point. If you are using 0.690" RB they weigh about 1 1/8 oz. so any 1 1/8 oz. birdshot load can be converted to slug round and you should be good using Lyman Foster load data and Lyman sabot slug load data if you don't have anything else. The RB is a bit heavier than the Lyman Foster slug (490 grs. for RB and about 475 grs. for Lyman Foster) and a bit lighter than the Lyman sabot slug (525 grs.) but those loads should work fine. Also the Hodgdon site has slug load data so use same data as for equal weight (or a bit lighter) RB.

Something else that should be mentioned is hulls. I generally use straight walled hulls. I was using Fiocchi hulls but am now using Federal field hulls simply because my Fiocchi's were old and the Federals are local and free. I plan on upgrading to Cheddite shortly since I found out the local trap club has bags of them. You can use compression formed/tapered hulls like Win AA but load data differs. Straight walled hulls are larger capacity and better for high performance slug loads if you want maximum oomph out of your slug loads. If not then it really doesn't matter as long as you load according to hull type.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Thanks again longbow. I appreciate the clarification. I sure have a lot of homework to do!

[centershot]

Thanks again longbow. I appreciate the clarification. I sure have a lot of homework to do!

Yes, it can be somewhat intimidating at first, trying to sort out everything in this section but a simple start could be something like this:

Select a 12 ga. 3 to 3-1/2 dram eq. trap load that utilizes components you already have.

Replace the birdshot with a 16 ga. hard card wad, about an eighth inch thick and add a round ball.

Crimp it shut, repeat 9 times and then go shoot them.

Pick up the wads on you way downrange to check you target. Wads tell a story, examine them for sheared petals, gas blow-by, mangled crush sections. As longbow mentioned above, Federal wads seem to be of more "robust" construction than some others I've tested, I particularly like the 12S3. The wads in the pic are from my sabot loads, some torn or missing petals but they group 2" @ 50 yds. Notice that the cruh sections and gas seals are nearly perfect!

Go shoot!

[ralph029]

Replace the birdshot with a 16 ga. hard card wad, about an eighth inch thick and add a round ball.

One question here... Do I need to account for the weight of the card (+ the weight of the RB)?

[centershot]

No, the weight of the card is of no consequence. The weight of your RB's will probably vary more than the card weighs. Now, if you're building a hard wad column that's something altogether different!

[ralph029]

Now, if you're building a hard wad column that's something altogether different!

Since I have no idea what you're talking about (at least yet), then I'll assume I'm not. :confused:

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ralph: Just go read Ajays thread at the top of this forum. It contains just about everything there is to know about loading slugs.

His research and information is excellent.

Randy

[ralph029]

In case anyone is interested, after spending several days reading, I have come to the following decisions...

Working with shot shells is different enough from metallic reloading that I'm going to consider myself an intermediate beginner and approach the start of this from that perspective.

I trust the folks at Lyman and in over 30 years of reloading and casting, their data has never steered me wrong and has always been a good jump off point.

I am going to work with 1 00 buck load and 1 RB load. I have made decisions based on pressures and interchangeability of components to keep costs down. Since this whole conversation started about round balls I won't go into the 00 buck shot stuff. I think it's best though that I start with some published data from Lyman on loads and learn from there. I won't cast my own until I'm more familiar with how things work for my particular gun. I decided on using .662 RB's in a 12S4 wad using Unique powder. From what I've read here, .662 RB's work OK for some and not so good for others. I figure that this simple load will be a good start to evaluate what direction I want to go in using RB's. After some initial evaluation, I should be able to refine my questions to more specific needs and have a better understanding of what information is already out there.

Thanks everyone for the help and time you put into answering my initial questions to get this off the ground!

[centershot]

AHA!! We've hooked another one! :) Good luck Ralph, stay safe!

[longbow]

Unless there is a steep taper and/or a rounded cup bottom in the shotcups I think you will find 0.662" RB's a "rattle" fit inside the shotcup. You need to keep the ball centered to get decent accuracy. Also, a little bore friction is probably a good thing even with Unique just to get consistent burn.

My best results using 0.662" RB's was to cloth patch them into hulls with shotcups seated so much like patching for a muzzleloader. I used pre-cut patches, centered the patch on the hull mouth then pushed the RB down into the shotcup. Those were some of my best RB loads. You can test the shotcup/patch/ball to bore with a push through test. Adjust cloth thickness to get a firm push fit.

Also, a point I think that has been missed so far is that you may have to adjust the ball position in the shotcup using nitro card wads and/or COW so that the top of the ball is correct for crimp height and you should trim shotcup petals down a bit so they don't fold over as the crimp is opened. I wouldn't cut them to the equator of the ball, just cut if they are sticking up even with or past the RB. In my experience this is not a precision operation, just cut off a bit to get it out of the way.

Picking up wads to examine them after shooting will also tell you a lot. Recovered wads tell a story. If petals are sheared fit is likely too tight, if the shotcup bottom is deformed or cracked you don't have enough support under the ball, if the gas seal is damaged then again probably due to deformation because not enough support under the ball, if petals aren't folded back then likely too loose a fit to bore.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

With the .662 RB the hot tip is to put a 1/4 felt cushion wad under the ball. This helps to center the ball in the wad as it accelerates down the barrel.

Don't go overboard trying to push these too hard. Regular Trap loads with the ball and wad substituted for the shot work great. That's where I started and stayed with my RB loads. For my uses like shooting steel targets and plinking they are jsut fine and accuracy is adequate for those uses.

Randy

[ralph029]

Thanks longbow! I was thinking that I would use the CoW if needed. I'll be sure to collect as much from my tests as possible (including the wads). It took me a while this morning to find everything I needed so hopefully, I should be have my first rounds of testing in the next week or so.

[ralph029]

Thanks Randy. The Lyman recipe calls for a 20 ga .125 Butler card. Should I add another .125 felt wad or just skip the Butler card and go with .250 felt (or just use CoW as longbow suggests)?

[gpidaho]

ralph029 As was posted above, another one hooked! I've found my rifles and handguns quite neglected since I started reading the shotgun posts here. Gp

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just use the 1/4" felt wad in the base of the shot cup. It cups around the ball very well and centers the ball in the wad during firing which in turn centers the ball in the bore as it travels .

Randy

[ralph029]

Just use the 1/4" felt wad in the base of the shot cup. It cups around the ball very well and centers the ball in the wad during firing which in turn centers the ball in the bore as it travels .

Randy

Thanks Randy.

[pashiner]

Ralph, to answer a previous question, using ajay's push-through method for checking fit also takes into account bore friction, and not just physical dimensions. Keep in mind lead hardness and slug design can throw it all out the window if the slug obturates on ignition. That's why I cast mine from a harder alloy. It allows one less variable in the mix.

[ralph029]

Ralph, to answer a previous question, using ajay's push-through method for checking fit also takes into account bore friction, and not just physical dimensions. Keep in mind lead hardness and slug design can throw it all out the window if the slug obturates on ignition. That's why I cast mine from a harder alloy. It allows one less variable in the mix.

Thanks pashiner. I appreciate the insight.

[longbow]

I doubt solid slugs or round balls obturate at all even if cast from soft lead... at lease none I have recovered show any signs of obturation but hollow base slugs cast from even fairly hard alloy do obturate!

I even had some thick skirted slugs at 0.110" skirt swell up at ignition. Depending on slug design and whether bore size or wad slug some collapse at the skirt (Lyman sabot slugs do this as do most soft Foster styles) and some went bell shaped with the lower edge of the skirt expanded/flared "bell" like. Many of these had been shot when there was about 4' of snow on the ground and were recovered in spring. I couldn't figure out why those thick skirted slugs shot so poorly but after recovering them I could see why! Oven heat treating solved that problem and they became a good shooting slug.

One of my more recent designs was also flaring/belling at the bottom of the skirt and due to sharp edge on the base they were shearing petals off shotcups! So yes pashiner has a good point.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Gentlemen, I"m not trying to push my luck here but I have another question concerning hulls. I promise I did a search for "federal plastic hulls" and read through the 8 pages of posts (aarruugghh). This is not a question about a specific load as we already addressed those questions. What I have found is if you look at different manufactures websites and their specific recipes to be used with their specific components, I am finding that either I have a very exotic hull (I really really doubt it) or they are not always called the same thing. I have 200 rds of Federal 2.75 maroon plastic shotshells (#0621275 B). I would have thought that this would be pretty easy to reference on most recipe websites. Lyman reloading data was easy to use as they call this a Federal Plastic with Paper Basewad and reference it in their data. I am trying to be meticulous in following recipes here in the beginning of my learning curve. I just thought I would stick with one hull to start and play around and research to learn how this all works together (think metallic cartridge in that there is only one place to start and then you vary the components). I can't seem to find vendors who use the same name for these shotshells. Is there a trick to this? For example, if you look at Alliant's website I have two choices for hulls, Federal Gold Medal Plastic Target Shells (which I know is not the one I have) or Federal Paper Target Shells (again I know that I do not have this either). If I go to Hodgdon's site I have 6 choices but none of those appear to be these shells. So, did I just buy incredibly exotic hulls or am I just not understanding proper identification methods?
I am asking to learn. I bought these particular hulls because they are referenced by Lyman for both 00 buck and round ball loads with the ballistics that I'm looking for to start my learning curve.

[gpidaho]

Ralph: Are any of these hulls marked Top Gun ? That's a very common Federal target Hull. Some have plastic base wads, some paper this hull is sometimes marked with just the Federal logo and sold as light field loads. If these sound like the hulls you have Top Gun load data is available on federals site or you can PM me for more information. Gp

[longbow]

Well, I'd have to look up some data. I think what I have refers to "Federal Plastic with Paper Basewad" as your Lyman info does.

These are not reportedly the best hulls. Having said that, I have a bunch of once fired Federal plastic hulls with paper basewad myself! Some people have commented on the fact that the paper basewad sometimes fails and goes out the barrel. So far I have not seen that happen.

I generally use straight walled hull load data with these if there is not data specific to the hulls. Sometimes the wad column height will have to be adjusted to allow for crimping.

You might try the Federal website and I am guessing they will still send you a free loading manual for Federal hulls. I got one and these hulls are listed. Slug data may be sparse but there should be buckshot data readily available. Round ball loads you will have to play with a bit using an equal payload weight of slug or shot and adjust the RB in a shotcup or on a wad column for crimp height.

I was using Fiocchi hulls which I liked but they have been reloaded too many times now so have to be replaced. The Federals were free so I am using them. I plan on going to Cheddite hulls shortly as they are readily available locally.

You don't have anything exotic but shotshell reloading can be confusing and frustrating trying to get all the correct components listed in reloading data. I use multiple sources which makes things a bit easier but still have to make substitutions occasionally.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Ralph: Are any of these hulls marked Top Gun ? That's a very common Federal target Hull. Some have plastic base wads, some paper this hull is sometimes marked with just the Federal logo and sold as light field loads. If these sound like the hulls you have Top Gun load data is available on federals site or you can PM me for more information. Gp

Gp, there are no markings on the hulls at all other than 12 GA & Made in the USA on the base. If it helps, I bought them from Ballistic Products https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Federal-12ga-2-3_4-new_primed_clear-hull-100_bag/productinfo/0621275B/

[ralph029]

Well, I'd have to look up some data. I think what I have refers to "Federal Plastic with Paper Basewad" as your Lyman info does.

These are not reportedly the best hulls. Having said that, I have a bunch of once fired Federal plastic hulls with paper basewad myself! Some people have commented on the fact that the paper basewad sometimes fails and goes out the barrel. So far I have not seen that happen.

I generally use straight walled hull load data with these if there is not data specific to the hulls. Sometimes the wad column height will have to be adjusted to allow for crimping.

You might try the Federal website and I am guessing they will still send you a free loading manual for Federal hulls. I got one and these hulls are listed. Slug data may be sparse but there should be buckshot data readily available. Round ball loads you will have to play with a bit using an equal payload weight of slug or shot and adjust the RB in a shotcup or on a wad column for crimp height.

I was using Fiocchi hulls which I liked but they have been reloaded too many times now so have to be replaced. The Federals were free so I am using them. I plan on going to Cheddite hulls shortly as they are readily available locally.

You don't have anything exotic but shotshell reloading can be confusing and frustrating trying to get all the correct components listed in reloading data. I use multiple sources which makes things a bit easier but still have to make substitutions occasionally.

Longbow

Hi longbow. I really wasn't expecting much from these hulls, one because they were cheap and two, because I'm just learnin' and I'm sure I'll make mistakes on components along the way as I learn :) Hell, I paid more for the last 20 rounds of brass for my .444 Marlin than 2 bags of these. As far as I'm concerned these can be disposable. They were convenient because Lyman had data for both buckshot and roundball in these.
I looked at the Federal website and didn't find much.I'll email them and ask for their guidance. Great idea sir!
The more I read and now have a basic understanding of what I'm working with, I'll be able to make better decisions once I start reloading.

[gpidaho]

Ralph: Proceed with caution but you can check the data on the various federal hulls and you'll see that there isn't a HUGE difference one hull to the other. Find out the composition and size of the base wad in the hulls you have and compare to other Federal hulls and use the data for the closest match. Use a forgiving powder that has a large spread from minimum to maximum. I like Blue Dot, Longshot or Steel. For Round ball, Slugs or Buckshot. With .735 Round ball I've used as little as 32gr. of Blue Dot and as much as 44gr. out of a cylinder bore. Start low and watch for pressure signs as posted by Ajay. Good luck and enjoy the new challenge. Gp

[longbow]

I note that you bought primed hulls and these came with Federal 209A primers. That is a "hot" primer so if you are loading to max. or near max pressures it is best to use a recipe that specifies Federal 209A primer or drop your powder charge a bit. How much you ask? Well, I'm not exactly sure but say 5% anyway,

Here is a good article on primers by Tom Armbrust:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

One of my other reloading manuals says that primer substitutions can affect pressure by up to 3000 PSI, up or down, with no other changes. Be very careful with substitutions! This is part of the black magic of shotshell reloading and why it is best to stick with published load data.

This looks like the current version of the manual I got but smaller:

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-VistaFederalSharedLibrary/default/va6da2c18d139773f814ffa29a4fe54536ef9f978/contentDocuments/catalog/shotshell-reloading-data.pdf

Your hulls should be "12 Gauge 2 3⁄4˝ Hunting-Type Plastic Case" If you read the fine print it says "paper basewad".

If you want a simple approach you can use the Lee data which identifies hulls simply as tapered one piece hulls or plastic hulls with paper base wad:

https://www.titanreloading.com/image/data/PDF/12gauge.pdf

These will not be high performance buckshot or slug loads but using equal weight payload they will be safe.

You can use any birdshot load data from any manual and substitute equal weight payload with slug or buckshot though buckshot may make for a long payload. Again, these won't be high performance slug or buckshot loads but they will be safe.

If you want to push the limits then stick with published data exactly because seemingly small changes can have large effects on pressure.

Play but play safe!

Longbow

[ralph029]

Ralph: Proceed with caution but you can check the data on the various federal hulls and you'll see that there isn't a HUGE difference one hull to the other. Find out the composition and size of the base wad in the hulls you have and compare to other Federal hulls and use the data for the closest match. Use a forgiving powder that has a large spread from minimum to maximum. I like Blue Dot, Longshot or Steel. For Round ball, Slugs or Buckshot. With .735 Round ball I've used as little as 32gr. of Blue Dot and as much as 44gr. out of a cylinder bore. Start low and watch for pressure signs as posted by Ajay. Good luck and enjoy the new challenge. Gp

gp, I think that before I tried my first large quantity of reloads with "tinkered" data, I really should stick with published info. I've been reloading long enough to understand the changes caused by small, seemingly insignificant changes. I'm concerned I do not know enough about this new world of shotshells to know when to say when. I'd rather put these shells on a shelf and buy something different that I can find easy to obtain data on and start there. I can always come back to these once I know something ;)
I choose Blue Dot and Unique powders for my first loads. After researching powders, it appeared that Blue Dot was pretty widely used in a lot of applications. In the world of big bore metallic reloading, Unique is a good ol' stand by (as I'm sure you know) (even though it's horrible dirty) and I was hoping that carried over to shotshells as well.

[longbow]

Found some more info. Yours woul dbe the Federal High Power with rolled paper basewad:

https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_1996.pdf

There's some buckshot and slug load data here too.

[ralph029]

I note that you bought primed hulls and these came with Federal 209A primers. That is a "hot" primer so if you are loading to max. or near max pressures it is best to use a recipe that specifies Federal 209A primer or drop your powder charge a bit. How much you ask? Well, I'm not exactly sure but say 5% anyway,

Here is a good article on primers by Tom Armbrust:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

One of my other reloading manuals says that primer substitutions can affect pressure by up to 3000 PSI, up or down, with no other changes. Be very careful with substitutions! This is part of the black magic of shotshell reloading and why it is best to stick with published load data.

This looks like the current version of the manual I got but smaller:

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-VistaFederalSharedLibrary/default/va6da2c18d139773f814ffa29a4fe54536ef9f978/contentDocuments/catalog/shotshell-reloading-data.pdf

Your hulls should be "12 Gauge 2 3⁄4˝ Hunting-Type Plastic Case" If you read the fine print it says "paper basewad".

If you want a simple approach you can use the Lee data which identifies hulls simply as tapered one piece hulls or plastic hulls with paper base wad:

https://www.titanreloading.com/image/data/PDF/12gauge.pdf

These will not be high performance buckshot or slug loads but using equal weight payload they will be safe.

You can use any birdshot load data from any manual and substitute equal weight payload with slug or buckshot though buckshot may make for a long payload. Again, these won't be high performance slug or buckshot loads but they will be safe.

If you want to push the limits then stick with published data exactly because seemingly small changes can have large effects on pressure.

Play but play safe!

Longbow

Hi longbow. Thanks for the info. Like I told gp, I really do not wish to monkey with a published load to make it work right out of the gate. I'll save that for when I learn more. I can put these hulls on the shelf and pick up other ones to get started. I was trying to keep my pressures south of 10K and my velocities around 1000 - 1200 fps. BTW... I did pick these shells because of a recipe in the Lyman Handbook. I was going to reload a bunch, head out into the desert, have some fun and put a different primer in the hulls for roundball.
I'll reach out to Federal and see if I can get a copy of that guide. You can NEVER have too much reloading data around ;)
You said, "You can use any birdshot load data from any manual and substitute equal weight payload with slug or buckshot" which got me to thinking. In the metallic world a change in boolit shape can alter the ballistic characteristics even if the boolit is the same caliber and same weight. Is this not really the case in shotshells or is the difference so negligible that this is a safe substitution? I'm just wondering. I'm sure in all my reading I just haven't come across that answer yet. Thanks again!

[ralph029]

This looks like the current version of the manual I got but smaller:

https://www.federalpremium.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-VistaFederalSharedLibrary/default/va6da2c18d139773f814ffa29a4fe54536ef9f978/contentDocuments/catalog/shotshell-reloading-data.pdf

Your hulls should be "12 Gauge 2 3⁄4˝ Hunting-Type Plastic Case" If you read the fine print it says "paper basewad".

BTW... I looked that link over before I wrote my first post today and that's actually what got me off on this tangent. When I couldn't ID my Federal hull on the Federal website... aarruugghh!

[ralph029]

Found some more info. Yours woul dbe the Federal High Power with rolled paper basewad:

https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_1996.pdf

There's some buckshot and slug load data here too.

Thank you sir!

[longbow]

A common practice is to simply replace a birdshot load with a slug of equal weight. Pressure test loads have shown that the slugs develop less pressure due to lower bore friction than shot loads.

Having said that, that applies to "standard" slug designs and diameters. If you were to load up hard cast slugs that were say 0.010" over bore diameter things would likely be different.

Typical Foster style hollow base slugs fall into this category as do Lee Drive Key slugs which many people use in factory birdshot loads by dumping the shot then replacing with a Lee 7/8 oz. or 1 oz. slug in a 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. factory load.Randy Buchanan does this with his round ball and slug loads. He uses a 0.662" ball loaded to 1 oz. birdshot load data with great success. Another proponent of this is Petander from Finland who has done this in both 12 ga. and 20 ga. with great success. For him the factory birdshot loads are cheaper than reloading so he turns them into round ball loads.

It doesn't have to be fancy to work! These are safe and sane loads that shoot well and don't beat you senseless with recoil as slug specific loads tend to do as they are usually loaded to max. pressures and velocities.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Lots of workarounds out there to make factory shells put a heavy hit on the target board. I've had some success with cutting the center out of a star crimp, leaving the outer crimp over the wad (looks like a roll crimp) removing a few pieces of shot and pouring in hot wax . I'm just not quite rednek enough to try cut shells but I've seen them work. Gp

[ralph029]

A common practice is to simply replace a birdshot load with a slug of equal weight. Pressure test loads have shown that the slugs develop less pressure due to lower bore friction than shot loads.

I understand this. A solid slug will hold its shape and not "conform" to the inside of the barrel as much as a loose load of birdshot will. But what about buck shot? Is it safe to simply trade load weights? I imagine that due to the size of the pellets that the friction is somewhere between slugs and bird shot.


Having said that, that applies to "standard" slug designs and diameters. If you were to load up hard cast slugs that were say 0.010" over bore diameter things would likely be different.

If we are talking lead round balls only that are undersized (of the barrel) the one for one weight replacement should be fine, right?


Typical Foster style hollow base slugs fall into this category as do Lee Drive Key slugs which many people use in factory birdshot loads by dumping the shot then replacing with a Lee 7/8 oz. or 1 oz. slug in a 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. factory load.Randy Buchanan does this with his round ball and slug loads. He uses a 0.662" ball loaded to 1 oz. birdshot load data with great success. Another proponent of this is Petander from Finland who has done this in both 12 ga. and 20 ga. with great success. For him the factory birdshot loads are cheaper than reloading so he turns them into round ball loads.

This is good info but I won't be at this point for some time BUT it does bring up another question/comment. 1 1/8 oz is not nearly as accurate as 492.18 grains. I know that those are the same weight but in reloading, grains is the common measurement. Imperial weight is not a very accurate measurement. In reloading data, is the assumption that the reloader will convert oz.'s to grains? Is there a standard 7/8, 1, 1 1/8, 1 1/4, grain equivalent used and/or assumed? Try to throw 1 1/8 oz on a scale and then weight it out in grains and you'll be hard pressed to get the same grain weight twice. One half a grain is pretty easy to measure but .0011 oz.'s is pretty tricky with most common scales. .5 grains in powder can make a huge difference.


It doesn't have to be fancy to work! These are safe and sane loads that shoot well and don't beat you senseless with recoil as slug specific loads tend to do as they are usually loaded to max. pressures and velocities.

I like safe and sane! Someday I'll tell you a story about me not respecting published data and a blunderbuss. I was young and dumb at the time. ;)


Longbow

[ralph029]

Soooo... After doing some more reading and math I'm thinking that, based on BPI's #00 Super Buck Lead (.330) at 130 pellets per pound I can use:
7 pellets for 7/8 oz load data
8 pellets for 1 oz load data
9 pellets for 1 1/8 oz load data
10 pellets for 1 1/4 oz load data

Or did I just over simplify this?

Using the Federal Hunting-Type Plastic Case with Paper Basewad
Lyman says 10 pellets #00, 33.0 grains of Blue Dot, Federal 209A primer, Federal 12S4 wad equals 1340 fps and 8,400 psi
Federal says 1 1/4 oz shot, 34.0 grains of Blue Dot, Federal 209A primer, Federal 12S4 wad equals 1330 fps and 9,600 psi

in all actuality 10 pellets is really 1.2 oz.'s (just shy of 1 1/4 oz.)

The weight in pellets falls within 5%
The weight of the powder charge falls within 3%

[megasupermagnum]

Soooo... After doing some more reading and math I'm thinking that, based on BPI's #00 Super Buck Lead (.330) at 130 pellets per pound I can use:
7 pellets for 7/8 oz load data
8 pellets for 1 oz load data
9 pellets for 1 1/8 oz load data
10 pellets for 1 1/4 oz load data

Or did I just over simplify this?

Using the Federal Hunting-Type Plastic Case with Paper Basewad
Lyman says 10 pellets #00, 33.0 grains of Blue Dot, Federal 209A primer, Federal 12S4 wad equals 1340 fps and 8,400 psi
Federal says 1 1/4 oz shot, 34.0 grains of Blue Dot, Federal 209A primer, Federal 12S4 wad equals 1330 fps and 9,600 psi

in all actuality 10 pellets is really 1.2 oz.'s (just shy of 1 1/4 oz.)

The weight in pellets falls within 5%
The weight of the powder charge falls within 3%

I did not go back and read the entire thread yet, but I'd like to add that 10 pellets of hard 000 buck weights about 1 1/2 ounces. I would think 10 of 00 buck would be closer to the 1 1/4 ounce you first stated. You can use buckshot in place of lead shot, the only problem being buckshot takes up more room, so you do not always get away with it.

[longbow]

What he said^

Not sure about bore friction with buckshot. Depending on how it stacks buckshot may "wedge" against the bore which smaller shot does not. However, the contact points are few and if in a shotcup the plastic petals likely yield to relieve at least some of that contact pressure/friction.

Not sure if anyone has done testing that way to determine if fewer large pellets wedging causes higher bore friction than "fluid" smaller shot all pushing outwards. I think smaller "fluid" shot would result in more bore friction but that is speculation on my part.

As msm says, a direct substitution of buckshot for birdshot will probably result in a light payload due to larger volume required.

Yes, for round balls that are bore diameter or under (in shotcup or bore diameter) equal payload is safe. I have loaded 0.735" RB's in my 12 ga. and shot them through a rifled gun with 0.727" groove diameter with no issues. There is not a lot of meat at the equator of a round ball so they swage to bore size pretty easy. A solid slug that diameter might result in too much lead to swage but bore diameter slugs are fine.

Soft Foster slugs do or at least can obturate to fill the bore. I have recovered Foster slugs shot into deep show and they swole up to fill the bore. I'll warn that a soft Foster style slug in a short hull may obturate to fill the chamber then be reluctant to enter the bore. Ask me how I know!

Thick skirted and/or hard slugs and round balls of bore diameter or less in a shotcup or all lead are fine to use as equal weight payload in my experience and everything I have read. This assumes a cylinder bore barrel.

Check out SuperBlazingSabots posts on slug/ball/shotcup fit. There is a wealth of information Ajay has posted in his thread. It can save you a lot of time tinkering with loads to get accuracy and performance.

Round balls are particularly easy to cast and load and if loaded properly can give quite good accuracy out to at least 50 yards and maybe more like 75 yards. Generally a RB dropped into a shotcup is the easiest way to go but... you should drop a 16 ga. or 20 ga. nitro card wad or two into the shotcup first. Also, a small scoop of Cream 'O Wheat between ball and card wads helps too. Without the nitro card wads the shotcup will try to wrap itself around the ball due to lack of support.

Good round ball sizes are 0.662" which is a bit undersize for many shotcups but okay in some and 0.678" which fits several readily available shotcups nicely. I have cloth patched 0.662" RB's into shotcups in hulls much like loading a muzzleloader and that works well as you can choose cloth thickness to suit bore fit. Lyman makes both those mould sizes and Mihec may have some 0.678" RB moulds in stock.

Many people use 0.690" RB's in shotcups but so far that's a ball I have had little luck with as most shotcups I've tried are are too thick and the couple that were thin enough had petals shear so accuracy was poor. I haven't pursued this ball size further since the others work well. Inexpensive Lee moulds is an advantage here though.

Yes, I use my powder scale in grains but don't get too caught up in 1/8 oz. or weighing the entire payload. Birdshot recipes simply call for a given shot payload of 7/8, 1, 1 1/8, 1 1/4 oz. so if my slug is close as in within 1/8 oz. I consider it good for most loading. If I am pushing pressure in a max. load then I am more picky but it isn't often that I am looking at squeezing the last FPS at the highest PSI!

Longbow

[ralph029]

I don't understand the difference between a shot cup and a plastic "wad". Is a shot cup what I'm seeing listed on sites that sell components as wads, i.e. a Federal 12S4?

[megasupermagnum]

I don't understand the difference between a shot cup and a plastic "wad". Is a shot cup what I'm seeing listed on sites that sell components as wads, i.e. a Federal 12S4?

Normally when we say shot cup, we are talking about the part of the wad that actually holds the shot. If you look at a 12S4, the bottom is the gas seal or powder cup, the middle corrugated section is the cushion or crush section. The top with petals is the shot cup. The whole unit comprises a wad or wadding.

Different wads like a steel shot wad normally don't have a crush section, and are nothing but a shot cup with a gas seal. Some like the BP12 don't even have that, and are purely a plastic shot cup, useless without added wadding.

[ralph029]

Normally when we say shot cup, we are talking about the part of the wad that actually holds the shot. If you look at a 12S4, the bottom is the gas seal or powder cup, the middle corrugated section is the cushion or crush section. The top with petals is the shot cup. The whole unit comprises a wad or wadding.

Different wads like a steel shot wad normally don't have a crush section, and are nothing but a shot cup with a gas seal. Some like the BP12 don't even have that, and are purely a plastic shot cup, useless without added wadding.

That's what I thought but figured better to ask. Thanks so much! I know you guys have probably answered most of these questions a number of times and I really appreciate you all taking the time to do it one more time :drinks:

[ralph029]

Yes, for round balls that are bore diameter or under (in shotcup or bore diameter) equal payload is safe. I have loaded 0.735" RB's in my 12 ga. and shot them through a rifled gun with 0.727" groove diameter with no issues. There is not a lot of meat at the equator of a round ball so they swage to bore size pretty easy. A solid slug that diameter might result in too much lead to swage but bore diameter slugs are fine.

Soft Foster slugs do or at least can obturate to fill the bore. I have recovered Foster slugs shot into deep show and they swole up to fill the bore. I'll warn that a soft Foster style slug in a short hull may obturate to fill the chamber then be reluctant to enter the bore. Ask me how I know!

Just to be clear, when you say swage, you are refering to the round ball resizing itself during the actual firing and not as us metallic reloaders think of resizing as a process done to the projectile prior to loading? There really is no practical difference between swage and obtruate in this discussion, correct?


Check out SuperBlazingSabots posts on slug/ball/shotcup fit. There is a wealth of information Ajay has posted in his thread. It can save you a lot of time tinkering with loads to get accuracy and performance.

I did read through Ajay's post when I first began this and it made very little sense at that time. I have gone back and as I learn more basics (with all you guys help), it makes much more sense! The plan is to start with buckshot, get more familiar with the process and then move on to round balls (no intention of working with slugs at this point). I might move into trap shooting though. I know that's a whole different conversation :)


Round balls are particularly easy to cast and load and if loaded properly can give quite good accuracy out to at least 50 yards and maybe more like 75 yards. Generally a RB dropped into a shotcup is the easiest way to go but... you should drop a 16 ga. or 20 ga. nitro card wad or two into the shotcup first. Also, a small scoop of Cream 'O Wheat between ball and card wads helps too. Without the nitro card wads the shotcup will try to wrap itself around the ball due to lack of support.

I have felt wads as the round ball recipe I was looking at did not call for a card. I was going to add the felt if I needed to make up some space or if the accuracy was horrible. I assume that felt would conform more than a card. Should I use both, skip the felt and use a card and CoW, or just play around to see what works best?


Good round ball sizes are 0.662" which is a bit undersize for many shotcups but okay in some and 0.678" which fits several readily available shotcups nicely. I have cloth patched 0.662" RB's into shotcups in hulls much like loading a muzzleloader and that works well as you can choose cloth thickness to suit bore fit. Lyman makes both those mold sizes and Mihec may have some 0.678" RB moulds in stock.

Many people use 0.690" RB's in shotcups but so far that's a ball I have had little luck with as most shotcups I've tried are are too thick and the couple that were thin enough had petals shear so accuracy was poor. I haven't pursued this ball size further since the others work well. Inexpensive Lee moulds is an advantage here though.

I have both .662 and .678 round balls that I will work with to start. I'm very sure that once this starts I'll own more Lyman molds. I've never used Mihec molds before. Until I get a little further along in this, I'll just order from TofW.

Thanks again longbow!

[megasupermagnum]

Skip the felt when working with slugs. I have never had them do anything positive. Use hard card wads, COW (or other buffer), or both. You do not want the wad to conform to the ball.

[ralph029]

Skip the felt when working with slugs. I have never had them do anything positive. Use hard card wads, COW (or other buffer), or both. You do not want the wad to conform to the ball.

Hi msm. I'm a little confused by your response. I'm not working with slugs, only buckshot (which I know needs no felt) and round balls. I was under the impression from something I read earlier that you want a felt wad to somewhat conform to an undersized round ball (.662).

[megasupermagnum]

For buckshot, felt can work fine. For a single ball or slug, no. Something like a .662" diameter ball is likely going to either need a thick wad, like a steel shot wad, or some kind of patch inside the wad.

[longbow]

Yes, I mean the ball swaging in the bore when fired. Before loading any of those 0.735" RB's I dropped on in my chamber and tapped it through the bore to see how much force it took to swage to bore diameter since it is about 0.006" oversize. The answer was not a lot of force required so I didn't worry about it.

As for the felt, I generally use one or two 1/8" nitro card wads under a round ball so support the base of the shotcups and yes plastic wad/shotcup same thing with gas seal, cushion leg/shotcup all one piece (usually). However, Randy Buchanan uses just felt under his 0.662" RB's with good success. He is using trap load data so generally not heavy slug loads. No reason not to try just felt if you have it. Look at fired wads for signs of distortion or failure. If accuracy is good and wads look okay you should be fine. If accuracy is poor or wads are kinda distorted then try the nitro card wads. I guess if wads look like c**p but accuracy is good then that works but I like to see the recovered wads in good shape.

Longbow

[ralph029]

Yes, I mean the ball swaging in the bore when fired. Before loading any of those 0.735" RB's I dropped on in my chamber and tapped it through the bore to see how much force it took to swage to bore diameter since it is about 0.006" oversize. The answer was not a lot of force required so I didn't worry about it.

As for the felt, I generally use one or two 1/8" nitro card wads under a round ball so support the base of the shotcups and yes plastic wad/shotcup same thing with gas seal, cushion leg/shotcup all one piece (usually). However, Randy Buchanan uses just felt under his 0.662" RB's with good success. He is using trap load data so generally not heavy slug loads. No reason not to try just felt if you have it. Look at fired wads for signs of distortion or failure. If accuracy is good and wads look okay you should be fine. If accuracy is poor or wads are kinda distorted then try the nitro card wads. I guess if wads look like c**p but accuracy is good then that works but I like to see the recovered wads in good shape.

Longbow

Perfect. Thank you sir!

[centershot]

Ralph,
In general, it is common practice to us a 16 or 20 ga. nitro card in a 12 ga. shotcup to prevent the wad from distorting and wrapping itself around the ball, 10K lbs. of pressure can do some quirky things. BUT, we all know that every gun is a story unto itself so the "nitro card thing" is not an absolute. I wish the loads that worked so well in My M500 would work in my 870 but no such luck! A lot of guys use COW as a filler/cushion, I use cornmeal. Go figure! Randy Buchanan uses a felt wad in his RB loads and gets great results; there's nothing wrong with careful experimentation. Test, modify, test again.

[ralph029]

Ralph,
In general, it is common practice to us a 16 or 20 ga. niro card in a 12 ga. shotcup to prevent the wad from distorting and wrapping itself around the ball, 10K lbs. of pressure can do some quirky things. BUT, we all know that every gun is a story unto itself so the "nitro card thing" is not an absolute. I wish the loads that worked so well in My M500 would work in my 870 but no such luck! A lot of guys use COW as a filler/cushion, I use cornmeal. Go figure! Randy Buchanan uses a felt wad in his RB loads and gets great results; there's nothing wrong with careful experimentation. Test, modify, test again.

Thanks centershot. I have felt and cornmeal at the house so I will begin with those for now. I'll order some nitro cards as well and try those. And to think, when this whole thing started, I said to myself, "hell, I've been reloading for years, how hard can this be?". Aarruugghh! I now have my eye on an Orion 1 and thinking about skeet. Why do I hate myself so much!?!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes the 1/4" thick felt wad in the shot cup with the ball sitting on top works just fine for low recoil shooting. Pretty sure nothing would like being hit by one, I know the steel targets I shoot with them scream and howl when hit, so they must be lethal.

Using the Claybuster AA clones the wad measures .725 around the ball when at rest. As the Felt is compressed during firing it shoves the ball deeper into the felt and the tapered wad petals the diameter around the ball grows up to @.730 dia. That is why this load works as well as it does. Low Pressure, good fit, relatively low velocity (1100 fps,) hardly any significant or objectionable recoil. In other words you should be able to shoot these all day long just like you would with your trap gun.

Randy

[centershot]

Thanks centershot. I have felt and cornmeal at the house so I will begin with those for now. I'll order some nitro cards as well and try those. And to think, when this whole thing started, I said to myself, "hell, I've been reloading for years, how hard can this be?". Aarruugghh! I now have my eye on an Orion 1 and thinking about skeet. Why do I hate myself so much!?!

LOL! When I began my quest I wanted to load my own slugs, something at least as accurate as factory Foster slugs from my smoothbore so 4" @ 50 yards. "How hard could this be?" I asks myself.........And that was FOUR YEARS AGO! Yeah, I got it worked out but at times, I swear man, there had to be voodoo involved!

[longbow]

Naaaahhhh... I don't believe in voodoo! Black magic on the other hand I have experienced first hand in slug reloading!!![smilie=1:

[centershot]

Naaaahhhh... I don't believe in voodoo! Black magic on the other hand I have experienced first hand in slug reloading!!![smilie=1:

Skokum!

[longbow]

Something else comes to mind regarding accuracy. I've done most of my slug shooting with a single shot gun so pretty solid platform.

A few months ago I bought a Mossberg 500 which so far I really like but... the barrel to receiver fit was very sloppy. Probably makes little to no never mind for shot but for slugs i think so.

I decided to try the "recommended" beer/pop (soda) can shim. I found it hard to make and too fragile so went to brass shim stock. Worked great and nice snug fit. I haven't shot it enough since to note tighter groups but it was sloppy and pinning or shimmying is recommended by many.

Longbow

[ralph029]

I have to say, I am chomping at the bit to get started. I have everything I need except the wads which are hung up (according to their website) to Covid 19 staffing issues.

[ralph029]

Something else comes to mind regarding accuracy. I've done most of my slug shooting with a single shot gun so pretty solid platform.

A few months ago I bought a Mossberg 500 which so far I really like but... the barrel to receiver fit was very sloppy. Probably makes little to no never mind for shot but for slugs i think so.

I decided to try the "recommended" beer/pop (soda) can shim. I found it hard to make and too fragile so went to brass shim stock. Worked great and nice snug fit. I haven't shot it enough since to note tighter groups but it was sloppy and pinning or shimmying is recommended by many.

Longbow

In all this, I see a couple new guns in my future. I'm thinking an O/U for skeet and a single shot. Then I would have to learn how to reload for three different firearms and 3 or 4 different purposes. Damn, where does it end? :veryconfu

[W.R.Buchanan]

Damn, where does it end? :veryconfu

It doesn't! Just get used to it.

Randy

[ralph029]

I'm going to start working up some initial round ball loads to start. Like I said, I'm still waiting on wads to get here (tapping my fingers loudly on my desk) so I can't do Ajay's push through fitment yet. Let's say for the sake of argument that I have no problem with fitment, I intend on using .662 and .678 round balls. From everything you all are saying and what I have gleaned from elsewhere, I can use the load data for 1 oz (.662) & 1 1/8 oz (.678), right? Providing column height permits, I plan on using nitro cards (on some) or felt wads (on others), corn meal, and an overshot card in 2 3/4 Federal plastic hulls with paper base wads.
.662 = Federal 12S3 with 23 grains of Green Dot
.678 = Federal 12S3 with 23.5 grains of Unique
Sound good or a recipe for disaster?

[centershot]

Personally, I think those loads are a little "warmish". I'd back down to 19.5 gr. of Green Dot and 22 gr. of Unique.

[ralph029]

Personally, I think those loads are a little "warmish". I'd back down to 19.5 gr. of Green Dot and 22 gr. of Unique.

OK, advice headed. Why though? What did I not see or think of in my coming up with those? That will help me in the future for planning and troubleshooting. Also at 19.5 gr of Green Dot, I should move to a 12S0 wad, correct? Thanks cs!!!!!!

[centershot]

My recommendations on powder charge come from my Lyman Shotshell Handbook and the Federal website. Also, remember that primers can change pressures quickly, Federal 209A's being one of the "hotter" ones if that is what you are using.

[ralph029]

Ralph: Proceed with caution but you can check the data on the various federal hulls and you'll see that there isn't a HUGE difference one hull to the other. Find out the composition and size of the base wad in the hulls you have and compare to other Federal hulls and use the data for the closest match. Use a forgiving powder that has a large spread from minimum to maximum. I like Blue Dot, Longshot or Steel. For Round ball, Slugs or Buckshot. With .735 Round ball I've used as little as 32gr. of Blue Dot and as much as 44gr. out of a cylinder bore. Start low and watch for pressure signs as posted by Ajay. Good luck and enjoy the new challenge. Gp

Gp... In the world of metallic reloading there is always a range for powder amounts, but this is not the case in looking at any shotshell data. When you say "start low", what does that mean? Is that 97.5% of the listed amount? 95%?

[megasupermagnum]

Gp... In the world of metallic reloading there is always a range for powder amounts, but this is not the case in looking at any shotshell data. When you say "start low", what does that mean? Is that 97.5% of the listed amount? 95%?

Even worse, you will find a lot of target style load data is stopped at a certain velocity. You mentioned 1oz with Greendot, so looking at the Alliant website you will see their load data stops at 1290 fps. It doesn't matter if it's 7,200 psi or 9,000 psi, for some reason they decided 1290 fps was the magic number. It is very frustrating.

Now, based on a Federal gold medal hull, Fed 209A primer, and 1 oz data with Greendot, I'm seeing that 23 grains should be a safe maximum for your 1 ounce slug, although this will be near maximum pressure. This will be over 1300 fps, so whether or not you want that speed is up to you. 22 grains might be a better maximum. The general rule is to reduce by 10%, but this doesn't always work with shotgun data. 19 or 19.5 grains would be a good starting point.

[ralph029]

Even worse, you will find a lot of target style load data is stopped at a certain velocity. You mentioned 1oz with Greendot, so looking at the Alliant website you will see their load data stops at 1290 fps. It doesn't matter if it's 7,200 psi or 9,000 psi, for some reason they decided 1290 fps was the magic number. It is very frustrating.

Now, based on a Federal gold medal hull, Fed 209A primer, and 1 oz data with Greendot, I'm seeing that 23 grains should be a safe maximum for your 1 ounce slug, although this will be near maximum pressure. This will be over 1300 fps, so whether or not you want that speed is up to you. 22 grains might be a better maximum. The general rule is to reduce by 10%, but this doesn't always work with shotgun data. 19 or 19.5 grains would be a good starting point.

I'm really starting to miss all my dirty brass...

[ralph029]

Gentlemen (and ladies?), what you are looking at is my first attempt at all your hard work (in teaching me things). Here are the first 10 #00 buck loads. The crimping is a little rough as I am learning, there is a touch to it. I'm sure I'll get it down soon though. Is it easier to just roll crimp?

The load is:
2 3/4 Federal plastic with paper base wad
33 gr of Blue Dot
Federal 209A primer
Federal 12S4 wad
10 ea #00 lead buckshot

Now for Ben Avery to open so I can go see what they do when actually fired :bigsmyl2:

I really appreciate everyone's help. Over the next week, other components will trick in and I will be doing another buckshot load and two round ball loads.

260517

[megasupermagnum]

That picture is small, but to me the crimps look a bit shallow. If you measure the depth with a calipers from the top of the lip, to the flat of the crimp, a hunting level load is generally considered ideal at about .080-.090" crimp depth. .070" or so is acceptable.

[ralph029]

That picture is small, but to me the crimps look a bit shallow. If you measure the depth with a calipers from the top of the lip, to the flat of the crimp, a hunting level load is generally considered ideal at about .080-.090" crimp depth. .070" or so is acceptable.

Well, damn! I didn't figure any of that into this :( I will measure and see where I'm at and adjust accordingly. I know they are nowhere near .080. And by the way... thanks for raining on my parade! HAHAHAHA

Bigger pic...

260522

[ralph029]

That picture is small, but to me the crimps look a bit shallow. If you measure the depth with a calipers from the top of the lip, to the flat of the crimp, a hunting level load is generally considered ideal at about .080-.090" crimp depth. .070" or so is acceptable.

So with the load I built, there is no way to get the crimp that deep without deforming the wall of the hull. It's it better to remove 2 pieces of shot and adjust the powder or cut the pedals off the wad to give it more room for the shot?

[megasupermagnum]

My first question is what type of machine are you loading on? A Lee has no adjustment, and takes the right touch to get a deeper crimp. It is tougher on brand new hulls, but can work. MEC is very tricky to get adjusted right. It is a razor thin balance between adjusting the crimp depth and cam over.

On to the load itself. I noticed in an old post that you put a part number for Federal hulls, but what I find is the clear Federal hulls from BPI. Those are deep based plastic based hulls. Often called either hunting hulls or .090" basewad hulls. They are the top of the line, and will certainly have an excess of room for your listed load. I would not trim the petals off, 00 buck should stack neatly in rows of 2 in a wad.

Now there is one simple trick you can use. You can use more wad pressure. On a MEC there is a simple scale on the front that can be used to gauge how much force you are using to seat the wad on the powder. Try seating up to 80 or 100 pounds. On a Lee you go by feel, just give a nice firm push, enough to compress the powder, and maybe even to begin compressing the wad cushion section. This will give you more space to crimp deeper.

[ralph029]

My first question is what type of machine are you loading on? A Lee has no adjustment, and takes the right touch to get a deeper crimp. It is tougher on brand new hulls, but can work. MEC is very tricky to get adjusted right. It is a razor thin balance between adjusting the crimp depth and cam over.

On to the load itself. I noticed in an old post that you put a part number for Federal hulls, but what I find is the clear Federal hulls from BPI. Those are deep based plastic based hulls. Often called either hunting hulls or .090" basewad hulls. They are the top of the line, and will certainly have an excess of room for your listed load. I would not trim the petals off, 00 buck should stack neatly in rows of 2 in a wad.

Now there is one simple trick you can use. You can use more wad pressure. On a MEC there is a simple scale on the front that can be used to gauge how much force you are using to seat the wad on the powder. Try seating up to 80 or 100 pounds. On a Lee you go by feel, just give a nice firm push, enough to compress the powder, and maybe even to begin compressing the wad cushion section. This will give you more space to crimp deeper.

I should have started with the fact that I was using a Lee Load-All. The hulls I'm using are here (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Federal-12ga-2-3_4-new_primed_clear-hull-100_bag/productinfo/0621275B/).

I did notice that there was a lot of feel involved with the Lee. I will try to seat the wad deeper and see how that "feels". I'll put together another 10 tomorrow and focus on the proper crimp. Thanks again msm for your guidance.

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, so those hulls are the hunting style hull. As said, they are usually called hunting style, one piece, or low plastic basewad/ .090" basewad Federal. In my opinion, they are the finest hulls ever made, and are a phenomenal choice for buckshot.

That said, your listed load is still plenty safe in that hull. With the Lee LoadAll II, you can't adjust the crimp unfortunately. It is designed for target style loads. So you likely won't get to .080", but you can get them slightly deeper, which is a good thing. Crimp is more important in shotgun than it is in any metallic cartridge. I find the trick to the Lee is to crimp in a quick motion. Once I feel the crimper make contact, I'll quickly and firmly crimp down as much as I feel I can get away with, without buckling the hull. Once you figure out the feel, it will be easy. I like to hold it down for a moment to let the plastic form. I'll then turn the shell 1/2 turn, and come down again with a nice firm push. The Lee can do a very nice job, and I find going by feel is a lot easier than adjusting the MEC.

[gpidaho]

Ralph: Sorry for the late reply. I haven't been logged in in a few. If you look over shotgun loads in the load books you will find that there is a load range with shot shells as with metallic cartridges. This is a little easier to follow in some of the powder manufactures fliers as some have loads listed in a line and not on a different page. (please don't let me be confusing) But, pick your powder and payload and you will note loads listed as target, light field, Heavy field etc. Generally the page will note that a certain percentage of the charge is ballisticly (sp) acceptable. Reloaders dropping charges through a bushing and not weighing their charges are trying to get as close as they can to the target weight and this is not often exact. Better a little less than too much. Gp

[ralph029]

Ok, so those hulls are the hunting style hull. As said, they are usually called hunting style, one piece, or low plastic basewad/ .090" basewad Federal. In my opinion, they are the finest hulls ever made, and are a phenomenal choice for buckshot.

I then have been looking at all the data wrong. I thought these were paper base was hulls. Thanks for clarifying. It was 100% dumb luck that I picked them.


That said, your listed load is still plenty safe in that hull. With the Lee LoadAll II, you can't adjust the crimp unfortunately. It is designed for target style loads. So you likely won't get to .080", but you can get them slightly deeper, which is a good thing. Crimp is more important in shotgun than it is in any metallic cartridge. I find the trick to the Lee is to crimp in a quick motion. Once I feel the crimper make contact, I'll quickly and firmly crimp down as much as I feel I can get away with, without buckling the hull. Once you figure out the feel, it will be easy. I like to hold it down for a moment to let the plastic form. I'll then turn the shell 1/2 turn, and come down again with a nice firm push. The Lee can do a very nice job, and I find going by feel is a lot easier than adjusting the MEC.

By the end of the first 10, I could tell there was a lot of feel involved. I did not realize that you could turn the shell and recrimp though. I do recall thinking that I wish I could see what was going on inside the crimper so I knew how it worked :) I'll keep you posted on how the second 10 turn out.

[ralph029]

Ralph: Sorry for the late reply. I haven't been logged in in a few. If you look over shotgun loads in the load books you will find that there is a load range with shot shells as with metallic cartridges. This is a little easier to follow in some of the powder manufactures fliers as some have loads listed in a line and not on a different page. (please don't let me be confusing) But, pick your powder and payload and you will note loads listed as target, light field, Heavy field etc. Generally the page will note that a certain percentage of the charge is ballisticly (sp) acceptable. Reloaders dropping charges through a bushing and not weighing their charges are trying to get as close as they can to the target weight and this is not often exact. Better a little less than too much. Gp

Gp, thanks for the response. I can't tell you how much this "triggered" my OCD-ness. What a goofy way to present data. Now that I know though, I can start to use the info in a more educated way. As for the whole dropping charges... NEVER! I only use any powder throw to drop into a scale pan and then weigh. I have found that it only takes a second and then once I know how many turns on the powder trickler I need, I can hum right along.

When I decided on buying the Lee, I viewed the purchase as if I was simply buying another set of dies. I thought this would be the most economical way to get started. I only use it to decap, prime, resize, and crimp. If I could figure out how to use my hand held auto prime on shotshells, I would ;)

[gpidaho]

Ralph: All reloaders with any sense and all their fingers (lacking an eye patch) are somewhat OCD. As you become more familiar with loading for shotguns you will relax a bit. I can assure you that if a few tenths in a powder charge were critical, all trap shooters would fire factory loaded shells. About 5% in a charge has no noticeable effect. Gp

[ralph029]

OK, how's this? Better? The shell on the left is my HD round, a Remington Managed-Recoil Buckshot. My only concern here is that I can see slight outdents on the Federal hull. They did cycle through my Nova OK though so I'll assume this is OK?

260624
260625

[gpidaho]

Those look fine Ralph. If the loads cycle in an autoloader or a pump and after sitting a couple days don't open up on the crimp you're good to go. The little imperfections in the crimp may be from limitations of the LEE load-all. (I use them too) Looks like things are coming together. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

Those look great. Brand new shells haven't had the crimp set in them yet, when you reload those shells they will look even better. Those will function great, good job.

[ralph029]

Quick question... What metal are you guys using for round ball casting? Simple pure lead or an alloy?

[megasupermagnum]

Alloy is not all that important. I've used pure lead, I've used wheel weights, and I've used heat treated wheel weights. They all work. Whatever alloy you have most of, use it.

[ralph029]

Alloy is not all that important. I've used pure lead, I've used wheel weights, and I've used heat treated wheel weights. They all work. Whatever alloy you have most of, use it.

Thank you sir.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Alloy is not all that important. I've used pure lead, I've used wheel weights, and I've used heat treated wheel weights. They all work. Whatever alloy you have most of, use it.

I agree totally with this and the operative point is, "whatever you have the most of" since most balls are 1 oz or more you'll get 14-16 per pound of lead. So 100 balls will take @8-9 lbs.

The actual composition makes no difference.

Randy

[ralph029]

I agree totally with this and the operative point is, "whatever you have the most of" since most balls are 1 oz or more you'll get 14-16 per pound of lead. So 100 balls will take @8-9 lbs.

The actual composition makes no difference.

Randy

Thanks Randy.

[ralph029]

Here are my first round ball loads.
Federal Hunting Style Hull (thanks again msm)
12S3 Wad
Mini Nitro Card, 16 ga
Felt Wad, 0.25"
.662 Round Ball
Over Shot Card, 12 ga
The round ball sat with the equator slightly below the top of the pedals. The top of the overshot card sat at 0.451 below the top of the shell (before crimp).

260933

[centershot]

Ralph,
Did you fold or roll crimp?

[ralph029]

Ralph,
Did you fold or roll crimp?

I did a 6 fold crimp. The shells in the background of the pic are first 4 that I did.

[centershot]

Wow! I'm amazed that you were able ti do that! I use a 12S3 wad with a 1/8" nitro card in the bottom and a .662" RB, that fills the cup slightly over full about 1/16". No room for the felt wad! You must squish the bejeezers outa' that felt!

[ralph029]

Wow! I'm amazed that you were able ti do that! I use a 12S3 wad with a 1/8" nitro card in the bottom and a .662" RB, that fills the cup slightly over full about 1/16". No room for the felt wad! You must squish the bejeezers outa' that felt!

I'm using the Lee Load All. When I put in the 20 grains of Green Dot, I just set the wad at the depth that the Load All is at. I really don't have to do any further compacting in the shell. There is a ton of room in those Federal Hunting Hulls.

[centershot]

I'm using the Lee Load All. When I put in the 20 grains of Green Dot, I just set the wad at the depth that the Load All is at. I really don't have to do any further compacting in the shell. There is a ton of room in those Federal Hunting Hulls.

Yes, that's probably the reason it works for you. I'm using Win. AA's (old style) and Peters Blue Magic hulls.