Gas piston less hold sensitive my butt!

[Tripplebeards]

For the last couple weeks I keep thinking my optic POA keeps shifting. Every time I get a shift it’s only an inch. Either perfectly left, right, up, or down. I went out to try to eliminate some yard pests this morning and missing all today and hitting perfect yesterday. I noticed if I slide my hand up and down the stock the POA changes by about an inch left or right. If I keep it closely towards my trigger group or rest the stock across a board I’m pellet hole per pellet hole. At least I “think” I am finally getting my gun figured out. Is there any way to float or bed my action to eliminate hold sensitivity? I remember reading when I bought my gun and had it upgraded to a gas Nitro piston that big hype of it was to eliminate all the springer type hold sensitivities. Not true with my gun.

[rsterne]

My experience with gas rams is that they are harder to cock, have more recoil, a rougher shot cycle, and are harder on optics than a steel spring....

Bob

[W.R.Buchanan]

3B: That doesn't sound like your problem. Check screws, these things will rattle apart. You should be able to tell if it is the gun or you by shooting off the bench.

When off the bench in the field if you are shooting off an improvised rest like leaning up a against a tree or on top of a fence post keep your support hand under the gun in between the gun and the rest.

Using Standard NRA Positions is also a good way to shoot and will enhance your other shooting as well.

I shoot 99% of my shots offhand, and I practice in the shop off hand so I can get pretty close when shooting at a Varmint. When shooting in the field or my yard, I always look for an improvised rest or use my Trigger Sticks. I got the Bipod Style Trigger Sticks and should have gotten the Tripod version like Jim Shockey uses everywhere in the world. The bipod works OK for sitting but is kind of shaky standing. Tripod works everywhere.

Anyway practice practice practice your offhand shooting, it will make all your other shooting better.

Randy

[Tripplebeards]

It’s got to be me then. I loc tited all my screws and sprayed 3M 77 adhesive in the scope rings. Everything is still rock solid from day one when I mounted my new optic. I’ve probably put over 500 rounds through it in the last couple of weeks. All the screws on the gun and the action are still tight. I can notice and hear plastic stock flex when I grip my stock farther forward like it moves or binds back and forth with change of hand placement up and down my stock. I wish I had a hard wood stock that I could try to rule out flexing. The linkage that cocks the piston is loose at all times. I can move it back and forth with zero effort.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yeah, but the barrel is the only thing that counts and it doesn't touch the stock does it? None of the Break Barrels I have seen touch the stock and I really don't see anyway that the cylinder in the stock could influence unless the barrel hinge is loose. I realize that the scope is mounted to the cylinder but if the hinge is tight that's not it. My HW guns all have .002-.003 stainless Shims on either side of the barrel and they are a real PITB to get in without bending them. They're is as close to zero clearance as you can get, and still be able to move it to cock the gun.

Would you put up a picture of your gun? I have never seen one.

Randy

[MT Chambers]

My HW90 gas ram (new) is harder to shoot accurately, then my springers, but I am playing with the "artillery hold", it's a massive gun and everything is exaggerated in the cocking/firing cycle.

[chutesnreloads]

Before claiming it is not less hold sensitive as your springer..... Are you comparing it to a springer with equal power?The gas piston may be less hold sensitive but it is NOT immune to differing holds.No, you will never eliminate the hold sensitivity of that type action.
You mention one inch differences in pellet impact.... At what distance are you shooting? Have you factored in possibility of wind drift from one day to the next?
Concentrate on holding exactly the same every shot.

[Tripplebeards]

I’m shooting at approx 10 yards so there’s no wind drift. If I lean my hand against the left or right side of my door fram when shooting out of it will shift POA to the left or right. If I rest the gun across my forearm dead center.

[bosterr]

WRB... I made a 6X6 out of 2X6's and tried shooting in my basement at about 39 feet. The weather still won't cooperate to take my Hatsan outside to stretch its legs. Off a rickety card table I got many pellets stacked in one hole in OSB board. I did't get all my shots into that hole but it sure shows promise!

[Tripplebeards]

Randy, the barrel bore is tucked a couple inches inside the front of the stock.


https://i.imgur.com/4PgbANK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cJOwp6k.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

I’m shooting at approx 10 yards so there’s no wind drift. If I lean my hand against the left or right side of my door fram when shooting out of it will shift POA to the left or right. If I rest the gun across my forearm dead center.

Tells me it is super sensitive to what hold you are using. Lots of times I will rest my hand flat against a door Jam and sit the gun on my outstretched thumb thus imparting no pressure one way or another to the gun. I recoils strait back like shooting off the block with artillery hold. Sorry, I couldn't hold the gun and take the picture, but you get the idea..

Randy

[Tripplebeards]

I’ve tried that and it still goes left or right. I notice if I put my hand across the door and just rest the stock on top of the middle of my arm it hits dead center. I’ll have to play with it some more.

[NyFirefighter357]

Could it be the scope is bad?

[Tripplebeards]

I thought it was the scope at first but when I rest my gun one way it shoots an inch one-way and when I rest it another way it’ll shoot an inch the other way. And then when I rest it a different way it shoots dead center. This is all without adjusting my scope. And when I rest in the certain positions I will shoot pellet hole within pellet hole and stack them in the exact same spot. So no, I do not believe it is the scopes fault which I have been blaming it off and on.

[NyFirefighter357]

Could it be the hold? I learned a long time ago to almost allow my air rifle to "float" holding it lightly and off a hard surface. These are some other tips about POI shift https://www.pyramydair.com/article/Scope_shift_and_barrel_droop_two_common_problems_M arch_2008/46

[Tripplebeards]

It’s the hold. I read the pyramidAir air tips about a month ago but still trying to narrow down the issue...it has to be the hold. When free handing if the rear of my hand goes any farther forward than about and inch or two in front of the trigger guard the POA shifts. If the gun is resting across a flat surface it stays dead center as well.

[Tripplebeards]

I’m going to keep a better eye on it to see which way it shifts and moves. I went out and tried it again this morning and it was shooting an inch low at 10 yards...shocking. When I was shooting I tried an artillery type hold up and down before and a little bit and resting my hand in the door jam like you did Randy. I adjusted about 10 to 12 clicks up and have it pellet on pellet again. I’ve been rested it across my outdoor grill that I have a floormat over so it sits completely flat and can rest by itself like you see in the photo above. It shot an inch to the right. I then held it door jam style artillery hold and it hit pellets for pellet dead center. I’ll keep an eye on it and see if it shifts again and will have to stick to one style hold apparently. It’s basically like I’m free handing it but using the door jam for steadiness so I would assume free handing would be fine too the way I have it centered. You can see in the photos I took the front of the stock is flimsy or than heck and if I touch it above the barrel it will immediately flex in and touch. I’m wondering if I replaced it with a wood stock if it would help with a more consistent POA? I think that plastic stock is really flimsy and causing all the issues. By the time I buy a replacement hats in stock for it I might as well buy a different rifle and it won’t be a spring or spring piston again if I do. Very frustrating but I think am getting it figured out. We’ll see how many shots it takes before it shifts from dead center again. If it moves again I’m gonna start to blame the optic. I have three other brand new ones in a box I bought in the old Optima 3 x 9 scope I can put back on it if needed... But I’m guessing it’s still not the scope.

https://i.imgur.com/nNC9xXa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/b3oodOE.jpg

[Tripplebeards]

I do have a pretty solid lock up when I cock it but I’m thinking my seal around the barrel looks just fine but I’m wondering if a new replacement one would help with accuracy?... Just in case there’s up and down movement on the barrel that I’m not aware of. Would a new seal cause more of a pressure between the action in the barrel for a better lock up? Not saying that’s the issue but I’m just curious if that would help with accuracy.

[chutesnreloads]

Sounds as though you have it narrowed down to your hold.I shoot pretty much as you described with the rifle resting in my hand and the hand rested against a door or post.This way you can be pretty steady and still get a consistent hold shot to shot.All spring piston type guns are hold sensitive.... it's just the way they work.You already found which part of the stock it likes to be held for accuracy.Once you get good with the springer , you'll be better with a centerfire too.

[Tripplebeards]

I picked up a Ruger 1022 air rifle. There’s no hold sensitivity on that baby. After getting frustrated this morning I grabbed that little Plinker and I can hit dead center on everything as fast as I pull the trigger. I put a little red dot on it the day I got it. I just wish it was as powerful as a springer.

[chutesnreloads]

You're comparing a CO2 gun to a spring piston gun..... Apples to oranges
If you must have that much power and can't live with the hold sensitivity....spend the extra $$$ and get a PCP airgun

[W.R.Buchanan]

3B: Make sure you are not tilting the rifle even a little bit. Maybe one of those bubble levels mounted on the scope. For the level of accuracy you are trying for,,, you will have to do everything exactly the same way every single time. That's a tall order.

I once had a FWB 300. It was the most accurate gun I have ever owned. It was not possible to blame the gun for anything as it would put every pellet, (the expensive match pellets that come in a 100 round packages and you're not supposed to touch them with your fingers) in the same hole for as long as you could stand to sit there and do it.

I figured out quickly that if I missed it was entirely my fault. The absolute minutia of shooting all guns is amplified in Airguns simply because the the distances are not as great as with firearms. So it becomes a Aim Small, Miss Small routine. All Olympic Target Airgun Matches are shot at 10 meters. Some Field Target Matches are shot at varying distances from 10 to 50 meters. The Germans have had this stuff figured out for decades.

Both my .177 HW 35's have iron sights. The 35E has the stock open sights, and the EB has a Beeman/Williams Receiver Sight. I liek shooting those guns most as it is challenging to hit a 1.5" circle at 10 yards in my shop and more challenging to actually hit every shot well inside the borders of the black. I also am shooting off hand which you should start to do more of. Your gun shoots close enough and it appears you have plenty of varmints to shoot at so why not shoot offhand and take the scope off and shoot with the open sights on the gun It would add a new dimension to your shooting instead of chasing perfection which only results in frustration.

There is an excellent article in the current American Rifleman (with the Colt Python on the cover) about being a Rifleman and the different aspects of the different types of rifle shooting. It is a good read and covers Precision Shooting, Classic Shooting (Field Shooting) and Defensive Shooting. All of which use different skill sets to accomplish their intended end result. As I get older and more frustrated with our societal decay, I find myself enjoying Defensive Shooting more and Defensive Shooting with Shotguns most of all. I also shoot my rifles and pistols in those games, but I like the shotguns the best as they don't rely on pinpoint accuracy as much as they demand higher levels of gun handling. I also tend to regard accuracy in terms of my guns ability to hit a man sized target in a short period of time. A rifle that will do 2-3" at 100 yards is sufficient for this, and a shotgun that will put three slugs inside 4-6" at 50 yards is more than adequate for these purposes. Those skills also may come in handy in the future, which may result in a serious need for me to be able to employ those skills for the actual intended purpose.

Just a few minutes ago, I just barely missed a Mocking Bird in my back yard at about 15 yards from the sitting position. (Open sighted HW35E) But I doubt I'll see him again any time soon as he got the message. I consider that to be a win!

Randy

Then I missed it again twice, 10 minutes later, now I suck.

[Tripplebeards]

After lazer surgery I can see a country mile but close up is fuzzy. Open sights are not on my vocabulary any more. I still shoot my vaquero and self defense handguns with opens but I have to hold them as far out as possible from my eyes to try and see them clearly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

After lazer surgery I can see a country mile but close up is fuzzy. Open sights are not on my vocabulary any more. I still shoot my vaquero and self defense handguns with opens but I have to hold them as far out as possible from my eyes to try and see them clearly.

That's good because all you need to focus on is the Front Sight.

Hold the sight alignment in place with your cheek weld and then put the Front Sight on the target and let fly.

That's all there is to it.

Come on, you can try it? When have I steered you wrong? :mrgreen:

Randy

[Tripplebeards]

It’s getting to that point. I just re sighted it in again about 20 min ago. It was an inch low again at 10 yards. I have it hitting in the exact same pellet hole again. If it shifts again the optic is coming off. It dose have fiber optic front and rear sights which will help.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The sights on that gun looked nice. You will have to accept a little less than perfect accuracy, but the satisfaction you get from shooting Iron Sights far exceeds that of using a Scope IMHO.

Randy

[rking22]

I tell folk that want to hunt with their spring guns that they need to sight them in and practice with them, from the same position they will use hunting. All recoiling airguns are “hold sensitive”, they will generally recoil away from the hold. The more solid the more it moves away. The up side, learn to shoot a “spring” gun and you will have the repeability in hold and the followthru to shoot most anything well. There is LOTS of barrel dwell time with springguns, and they are recoiling and moving while the pellet is in the barrel. Shoot, the gun recoils slightly to the rear before the pressure even starts to build, piston moving forward. Then the piston created enough pressure to begin slowing down while Starting to accelerate the pellet. Then it stops against the air cuss ion and the end of the tube giving the forward recoil. Pellet Still is in the barrel! Follow thru is mandatory, keep the sights on the target till the pellet hits the target. Consistent hold yields consistent “movement”. Practice and check zero from field positions, that’s the only group size that counts with a hunting gun.

[Tripplebeards]

I’ll see if it is still the same POA later today. I checked it a day ago after I re zeroed it in with an artillery hold and my hand about a half foot in front of the trigger guard. It seems to be holding so far. I took out some feathers at about 35 yards with it. I hit exactly where I aimed... in the neck. Hopefully I have it figured out with everyone’s advise.

The browning 800 express “spring” 22 cal pistol that has a spring built in for recoil absorption isn’t hold sensitive at all like my rifle.

[sutherpride59]

I gave up on break barrels the day I bought a 25 cal marauder. I’ll never mess with their hold sensitive @## ever again. Not worth the time or money.

[Tripplebeards]

I shot and missed the other day at some backyard feathered varmints. I noticed my hand was further up the stock. I made sure to correct the issue today. My hand is a couple inches away from the trigger guard. Two for two grackles on the ground. One was about 35 yards away and was free handed. If I am any further up my stock than 5 inches away from my trigger guard my POA I’ll be off. So I confident to say my optic is not the issue. Hitting feathers with the H&N terminators sound like a 4th of July snap cap exploding when connecting if not a little louder! I’m going to assume springers are like shooting an Poorly bedded rifle.

[Tripplebeards]

I just brained some fur at 20 yards with a free hand hold as I described holding the fore end a few inches away from the trigger guard. Firing up the croc pot! I’m finding out it hits exact POA when I’m not leaning against anything when using it for pest elimination.

[MT Chambers]

I'm over a month into my gas ram HW90 in .25 and have gone back to a normal hold on the gun and have gone away from the "loose" hold, between me getting better and the gun getting worked in, I think I have the bruiser figured out., I had to play with diff. bases and mounts just to keep the scope solid on the gun, and that was part of the problem. I think I'll order some of those Diana "spring" bases if there are any other probs.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Now you guys do know that your Scope Mount needs to have a stop pin that fits in one of the holes in the top of the receiver to stop it from moving,,, Right?

I try to use one piece mounts any time I can and UTG makes decent ones with the stop pin for about $12 from Pyramyd Air. 3 pinch screws so you can really reef on them if you feel the need to. Just get all three the same torque. You kind of need one of those Torque Wrenches to do this.

I used these individual mounts on my Bug Buster Scope because the one piece mount wouldn't fit on the scope due to the distance between the rings.. The rear one has a stop pin also. I took it off after I shot those good groups with the JSB and H&N pellets and shoot that gun with the stock open sights now as a practice gun.

All these mounts are nicely made,,, in China,,, but the quality is good enough to overlook their trying to kill us with the disease. The price is right. Besides I bought them several years ago when China was still our friend.

I see their US Market Share dropping dramatically from now on!

Randy

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, my rifle came with a scope ring stopper or should I say a scope stop.

[Forrest r]

Myself I'd put witness marks on where the bbl meets the receiver and make sure it's locking up correctly and staying that way.

You really should hold your rifle with your lead hand just in front of the trigger guard free floating everything in front of your hold.

What your actually seeing/experiencing is +/- 4/100th's of an inch of flex/movement in your bbl.

Hold left/pellet left
Hold right/pellet right

To find the amount of movement of your hold:

16 x (1"/360")

16='s bbl length
1" ='s amount of poi change
360" ='s # of inches in 10yds

good luck

[wildwilly501]

I gave up on break barrels the day I bought a 25 cal marauder. I’ll never mess with their hold sensitive @## ever again. Not worth the time or money.Well put When things get back toward normal and I have a little extra $$ money thats what I'm going to do I'm bullheaded and have tried for years to make this work some days I'm amazed at how small my groups are and then when my technique is just a little off I amazed at how terrible they are.