Thoughts on loading 32 S&W

[arlon]

I just got an old (1893ish) S&W 5 shot top break pistol (32 DA 4th Model). I was showing it to my neighbor and he pulls out a set of old LEE carbide 32 S&W dies and hands them to me. I already have a Lyman 311252 double cavity mould (designed for the 32 S&W). I have a lot of fast pistol powders on hand so why not actually start shooting the thing. I'm thinking stay way down in the starting load range and go have fun with it. Revolver is in very good condition. Just need to find a bit of brass now.

[Hickory]

Keep your loads low.
This is not a gun to hotrod at all.

[arlon]

Keep your loads low.
This is not a gun to hotrod at all.
Yep, I'd consider published starting loads as max for this one. Been around this game a long time and want to stay around it a bit longer!

[Cheeto303]

This is why the old ideal handbooks are so valuable.Just enjoy it for what it is and shoot period correct ammo. That's what makes it all so very interesting. I personally love shooting the old 32 & 38 S&W Top breaks. I load & cast with the old Ideal tong tools .Beautiful little S&W you have there.

[Outpost75]

Smallest rotor which comes with the RCBS Little Dandy is the #00 which meters 1.7 grains of Bullseye.

This works OK in the .32 S&W topbreaks using a single 00 buckshot resized in a .314" size die, or with a light cast bullet of soft lead, weighing no heavier than 80 grains, but that is a max. load. To load heavier 87-88 grain bullets you want to insert a shim or spacer to reduce the capacity of the #00 Little Dandy rotor to 1.3-1.5 grains of Bullseye and that will closely approximate factory ammo.

Otherwise use a .22 LR fired case as a dip measure and use either 3Fg Black or Trail Boss.

[arlon]

Otherwise use a .22 LR fired case as a dip measure and use either 3Fg Black or Trail Boss.

I have never used Trail Boss for anything before but in a case this small I was thinking about it. I'd just make a dipper from the 32 case cut off at the depth of a seated bullet. Weigh and see if it looks ok and adjust from there. I've never used it because of the cost in larger cases but in the 32 S&W I think I can afford it as long as the banks stay solvent.

[ndnchf]

Ive got one of those little S&W 4th models too. I don't have my loading notes in front of me, but I do have a nice mild load for it. I can check tonight.

[Battis]

I bought one recently. I fired it, using 1.1 grs Bullseye and .321 roundballs sized to .311 (flat on top and bottom). Fun gun.

I bought the brass from Midway.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021324587?pid=785492

[Larry Gibson]

32 S&W

I recently inquired at several LGSs regarding any 32 S&W or 32 Short colt cartridges they may have laying around. I ended up with several sample of 32 S&W of various makes of unknown vintage. The purpose for the acquisitions was to pressure test them. I pressure tested them a couple days ago and had interesting results. I also ended up with full box of Western 32 Short Colt which I’ve not tested yet.

The test firearm was a Contender With a 10” barrel chambered in 32 H&R Magnum and a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the prescribed SAAMI location for pressure measurement. The gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 and its attendant software in a laptop. I was able to measure the pressure and muzzle velocity of the assorted 32 S&W cartridges.

As a reference:
32 H&R Magnum
Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory ammunition ran 1217 fps (987 fps out of 6 ½” Ruger SS) at 18,200 psi.
A Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1128 fps at 16,500 psi

32 S&WL;
Federal factory WCs; 12,000 psi
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1165 fps at 19,300 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 4 gr Unique ran 1101 at 19,000 psi

The results of the 32 S&W factory ammunition;

Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN; 786 fps at 18,900 psi
Winchester W-W; 727 fps at 15,300 psi
Winchester [WRA]; 729 fps at 16,300 psi
Remington [R-P]; 676 fps at 14,200 psi
Federal [F C] 86 gr FMJRN; 833 fps at 17,900 fps
Winchester [WRA] 86 gr FMJRN; 780 fps at 14,000 psi

The average pressures for the 32 S&W ran from a low of 14,000 psi to 18,900 psi. The 32 S&W is presumed to be a lower pressure cartridge than the 32 S&WL because it is the shorter cartridge. That presumption is probably based off similar cartridges such as the 38 SPL/357 Mag, the 44 SPL/44 Mag, etc. Thus that presumptions has always led to the belief that using the 32 S&W in the old H&R and Iver Johnson top break 32 S&WL chambered revolvers was “safer” because of the less psi of the 32 S&W cartridge…….we see from the actual psi of numerous 32 S&W factory loads that is not the case……..

I'm not saying 32 S&W ammunition is unsafe in 32 S&WL chamber top break revolvers just saying there's not a lot of difference, in pressure, between the two cartridges as is thought.

I'd suggest, with the 311252 cast bullet, a small dipper be made out of a 22 short or LR case and filed down to hold 1.0 gr Bullseye and use that. The pressure will be comparable or less than the original and latest production 32 S&W smokeless loads. A recent test of some latest R-P 32 S&W (Green Box) showed it had 1.0 gr of smokeless (very similar in appearance to 700X...not say it was just saying it was similar) powder under the 88 gr lead bullet. That gave a psi of 13,300. My suggested load should be similar.

Actually, according to my older Lyman manuals, the 311252 was designed for the 32 Colt and 32 Savage auto pistols. The 87 gr 311259 was designed for use with the 32 S&W. In such a small capacity case seating depth is critical to pressure generated. The 311252 seated with both lube grooves covered will be seated much deep than the factory 88 gr or the 311259 bullet would be. Thus pressures with the same load may very well be higher with the lighter weight bullet seated deeper. With the 311252 bullet I'd suggest seating so the case mouth is just on top of the middle drive band.....maybe just to the front edge. No crimp is needed, just straighten out the case mouth flair.

[onelight]

Has anyone used Pyrodex P in 32 s&w /long or 38 s&w for the break top smiths ?

[Outpost75]

Thanks Larry! It would be interesting to take Euro-CIP .32 ACP cartridges from either Fiocchi, RWS or Geco and measure them similarly. I think that you could stretch a 5/16" O-ring around the base of the case to provide adequate "crush" to maintain correct headspace with the narrower semi-rim. Just a thought.

[arlon]

Thanks for that detailed info Larry. I copied it to that revolvers file. I do have a LOT of 700x wish that was the load but I also have a bit of Bullseye too.

[nhithaca]

Had no idea that the "little" 32s were that high in pressure. Especially considering the pressure of the 32 H&R which is supposed to be in the range of the 38 Special +P.
Good post, thanks.
Interested in testing any other chamberings? Does the installation of the strain gauge cause any damage to the barrel?

[arlon]

I wonder how much difference there is in pressure between these light smokeless loads and some black powder loads.

[Larry Gibson]

Had no idea that the "little" 32s were that high in pressure. Especially considering the pressure of the 32 H&R which is supposed to be in the range of the 38 Special +P.
Good post, thanks.
Interested in testing any other chamberings? Does the installation of the strain gauge cause any damage to the barrel?

Yes, with the blue is removed in the area of the gauge and completely cleaned and degreased. The gauge is then permanently glued to the barrel with a high grade industrial glue. If removed the area's bare metal can be cold blued. I most often true to apply the gauge where it is hidden by the stock. However, with some guns, such as the Contender that is not possible. I also located the gauge at the SAAMI specified location over the chamber for transducer location. With many shorter cartridges that's not possible in some actions which is why I use Contender barrels for those.

[onelight]

Larry I have to say you and outpost75 always have great information and I thank you guys for making it available here.
I don't know if you have an answer for this but , does the length of time the combustion is at maximum pressure affect the the overall load on the firearm for example 32 s&w and 32 H&R loaded to the same pressure would the pressure spike on the H&R be longer and require a stronger gun than the 32 s&w ? I hope the question make since.

[smkummer]

Yep, I have made a powder scoop out of a 22 case. No one mentioned that most reloading blocks don’t work. You have to set the little cases on the loading bench/ table and hope for the best.

[Green Frog]

Have to admit, I've seldom seen the need to load for 32 S&W (much as I love its longer siblings.) Most recently I did a test to load 32 S&W with an old set of S&W loading tools. One thing I found was that even with a good even charge of either black powder or the Bullseye I also used. I could hear a distinct difference in loudness (suggesting power) between rounds that should have been identical, but when your charge is 1.1 grains, a few granules can make a big difference! I think if I were going to load very much for the 32 S&W I would use BP. Also, I don't think I would expect stellar accuracy, regardless.

Froggie

[Outpost75]

Some years ago Midway sold nicely made hardwood 50-round loading blocks with smaller 10mm diameter holes which were cut 10mm deep and proved to be very well suited for .32 ACP, .32 S&W Long or H&R Mag., 32-20, .380 ACP and 9mm Luger. I bought several back then. Somebody should make them again.

A marketing opportunity exists.

[tejano]

The 32 s&w should live on because baby mice need shooting. :)

[ewlyon]

I have a few 32 top breaks that I load for and out of caution I set out to try trail boss under a roughly 75gr cast FP loaded as sized and lubed with 45/45/10. 1.0gr was the starting load using the case capacity measurement and when I tried that it was accurate and very light so that is what I have stuck with. Probably fired around 300 of them so far without any problems. And it is very easy to meter that charge accurately with the lee classic measure

[Alferd Packer]

I load and shoot my .32 S&W top breaks using a dead soft cast 77 grain lead bullet over 1. 0 and 1.1 grains of Bullseye, 700X, and AA No.2.
I have also used 3f black powder.
The
black powder should be the lowest pressure load but in comparison to the 1.1 loads of smokeless, the little pistol roars compared to their pops.
I know the black powder load is more powerful, but I still feel its safer for the old steel to keep the smokeless loads where they are.
Thanks for all your input.
I love to read this.
Thanks Larry for being interested enough to go the extra mile testing and for your afterthoughts.
Also thanks to Outpost as well for your insight.
I can't recall exactly my black powder load so I didn't want to guess but it was taken from a Hodgdon manual with the hardback black cover and the black powder cartridge info.
I will up date this when I can.


I use 5 grains 3f black powder as per the Hodgdon manual. This under the 77 grain cast soft lead bullet.
I use White Crisco as my bullet lube since it cleans up better than petroleum lubes. I have some old balloon head cases I use when using the black powder. I have some starline cases I use for the smokeless loads.
The balloon cases are weaker, but they are a little bigger to accommodate the black powder.
I also shoot round ball sized .311.
They fall thru the .311 sizer so they get a slight tap to enlarge and are loaded orienting the flat spot up when seated.
the round nose bullets are most accurate especially over the AA no.2 although they all really drop except the black powder loads.
Close range, longer range, but still close.
l always feel like a kid playing with my first cap gun, except real bullets come out.
Really great fun!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry I have to say you and outpost75 always have great information and I thank you guys for making it available here.
I don't know if you have an answer for this but , does the length of time the combustion is at maximum pressure affect the the overall load on the firearm for example 32 s&w and 32 H&R loaded to the same pressure would the pressure spike on the H&R be longer and require a stronger gun than the 32 s&w ? I hope the question make since.

Apologies for missing this question when asked. Didn't see it until I just reread this thread.

The time difference at maximum pressure is miniscule at best with the cartridges using the powders in discussion. Given all three cartridges were loaded to the same pressure with the same powder the TOR (Time Of Rise) to peak psi would be slightly longer because of the increasing case capacity. However, given the normal shot to shot variation in psi I would not even hazard to guess if it is even measurable as the variance may well fall between that shot to shot variation.

Let me also note that while the 32 S&W has a higher SAAMI MAP than does the 32 S&WL it is simply because at the time SAAMI adopted the MAP for the S&WL it was only being factory loaded with very light target WC loads for blow back semi auto target pistols.

FYI; I also found some WRA 32 S&Ws loaded with 88 gr bullets over what appeared to be 7 gr of 4fg BP. Out of 10 shots pressure tested I got 2 to give a pressure reading. The psi of those were both 10,800 psi.

[onelight]

Thanks for the response Larry . It sure is nice to have someone that can answer these questions with the experience that you have.

[alfadan]

Ive loaded some with trail boss. Nothing spectacular happened though Ive since read that TB is not neccesarily a low pressure powder in such small capacity cases; but have not seen any actual data.

[GBertolet]

I have that same revolver. I use the 311252 bullet also. I went to the Hodgdon Cowboy Manual, and got data for the pocket pistol 32 S&W. Only one powder listed. I used the starting load of 1.1gr of HP38. 231 powder can be used also, as it is the same powder. Very suprising velocity, of nearly 600 fps from by chrono. I stopped at that load. Good enough. These revolvers were made for black powder, and don't like smokeless, other than the lightest charges. There is no frame support from the topstrap, and the recoil shield part of the frame can stretch rearward, and the latch can unlock during firing, with anything heavier than the lightest loads.. I have experienced this on another breaktop revolver. Also the metal of the cylinder is not that great, and the walls are quite thin. It is not good to temp fate.

[Walks]

Outpost & A. P.,
That is good info.
I use the #311252 over 1.1grs Bullseye. My ancient Lyman #55 will go that low.
Loaded and shot probably 1,000rds. Mostly in an old Colt Police Positive, some for My kids in a Ruger SSM.
A bit hard to rapidly load a Davis Derringer in 32H&R for Cowboy Side Matches, the Longs are better for my giant meathooks.
And some in My Grandmothers S&W Top Break, nickel w/ Factory Pearl Grips.

I like the .22LR case as a scoop.

[arlon]

That little 32 S&W was my first 32 but now I've added a 4" S&W model 30-1, Rossi pocket revolver in 32 long, 6 1/2" Ruger SS in 32 H&R and just ran across a Lipsey's Special 5" GP100 in 327. The little S&W very quickly turned me into a 32 fan. Just got in a life time supply of 32 Long brass now just need to get time to do some casting.

[GhostHawk]

Walks I also like the .22lr on a handle as a powder dipper. Amount is easy to vary with almost anything inside that will stay put.

Those foam meat trays are perfect. Sharpen the edge with a chamfering tool inside and out. Set it on foam, twist it back and forth until it comes through. Push the foam to the bottom. Test by scooping and weighing. Adjust as needed with another layer or thinner materials.

I have one Popsicle stick with a .22lr epoxied on one end, and a .22 mag on the other. .22lr is adjusted to throw an exact 2 grains of Red Dot. Just right for my .32sw longs.

[Walks]

Thank You,
GhostHawk.

I'll be digging that foam tray from last night's steaks outta the trash right now.

[gwpercle]

Scoops made from empty case w/ wire handle
Bullseye Powder :
22 Short - 2.5 grs.
22 Long Rifle - 3.5 grs.
22 CCI Stinger - 4.2 grs.
My dipping method is dip case full , from a coffee cup of powder , tap handle on rim of cup 3 times to settle , dip case overfull a second time and strike off top level with edge of business card .
This method gives slightly heavier "charge" but I get more consistent charges than dip and strike level method especially with Bullseye (and Unique ) powder .

All of these dippers would have to be cut down or filled up to give the 1.1 grs. Bullseye the 32 S&W requires .
Be careful with "fillers" in a case ... I was taking up room with circles of thin cardboard , they were pressed in tightly but over time started working loose ... I caught it and put them back with some glue to make sure the filler doesn't work loose again .
Gary

[35remington]

I would guess by Mini Mag you mean Stinger, as MM’s are standard Long Rifle cases.

[gnoahhh]

My first experiment in loading .32 S&W's was a bazillion years ago as a kid. I was anxious to shoot my new "British Bulldog" and having a handful of cases and a 311241 PB .30 mold, I set to work. Cases were charged with a pinch of Red Dot (don't ask me how much, it was 53 years ago) and bullets were made by partially filling the mold cavity and then filing the "bases" flush to the bottom of the top driving band- all day in the "Armory" to create a couple cylinder's worth of bullets. Thumb seated them in the charged cases and off to the proving grounds.

Results on paper were not impressive so I tried a penetration test. One shot at an old telephone pole was enough to call a halt to the proceedings. From around 15 feet away, that bullet bounced straight back and hit me squarely on the shin bone - and didn't even make a bruise. Lesson learned: at no time depend on lightly handloaded .32 Shorts for self defense.

Not to be discouraged, I went on to fill my life with a plethora of .32's - Smith Hand Ejectors, Model 31's, Colt Police Positives and Police Positive Specials (my favorites), and an occasional K-32 and Officer's Model (both of which I would love to have back). On the hunt for an affordable Officer's Model as we speak. I'll find one.

That cursed little British Bulldog was the first revolver I bought with my own money, and the first one I ever sold.

[Green Frog]

If you can’t find a warm spot in your heart for a 32 (or three or six of them) your heart is just too cold! My heart is big enough and warm enough for a bunch of them.

Froggie

[gwpercle]

I would guess by Mini Mag you mean Stinger, as MM’s are standard Long Rifle cases.

Yes , Stinger Case , I made the correction then read your post ... Thanks for the heads up :Luvcastboolits: Good Catch
Gary

[Draconus]

Yes , Stinger Case , I made the correction then read your post ... Thanks for the heads up :Luvcastboolits: Good Catch
Gary

Hey everyone did some digging came across this forum looking for info on the Smith and Wesson DA 32 s&w top break revolvers .

I just recently nailed one on auction that is in exceptional condition like to find out if anyone know these really well
a date range on it with serial 91613

Has 95-98% orginal nickle finish
Its got a shiny bore on all chambers mint barrel and tight all around ...hand grip which numbers match gun serial shows no wear so its not been used very much ...all serial match on gun as well and there is absolutly no pitting what so ever on cylinder nor inside of barrel which is unheard of as everything back then was black powder....thinking i found a real super gem here ;)

i did some research and acquired some vintage ammo like to know if its alright to use in the gun
Ammo is remington-peters ,remington-umc,winchester all from what i can find have around same fps and fpe about 680 fps with 90 fpe depending on bullet like 77 grain,85 grain and 88 grain 283579

Know i now the 32 s&w round is low pressure anyways and the cylinder on the gun does have thicker walls 283580
283585
than guns from 1880 time frame and i was told by ffl its coming from that deals in antique pistols firearms ect u can shoot modern 32 s&w in it or vintage ammo as even the modern is around 680 fps with 90 fpe

here is pic of the gun dont drool to much guys i know its a real find and beauty...any help be much appreciated283578