Target ammo bullet pull by the thousandths?

[Chill Wills]

In good revolver target ammo, how many thousandths of an inch would be good. Soft wadcutter ammo, maybe very little. Heavy hard cast bullet can stand more. I am shooting 12-14 BHN 44 Keith bullets as cast av diameter 0.430"
Case expander is 0.425". So that is about 0.005" and I think it is a lot.
Plus it may squeeze the bullet smaller. Hard crimp may reduce the bullet diameter more on the way out the case.

[RickinTN]

It is referred to as neck tension. I try to load my centerfire loads with around .001", or maybe a little less. I don't load handgun much but I would think about the same should work well. I'm sure others with more handgun experience will join in to address your question. Your expander diameter is not a good way to tell as the brass will spring back. The difference in diameter of a prepared case before the bullet is seated vs the diameter after a bullet is seated is your neck tension dimension. .005" to .006" is probably sizing down your bullets as they are seated.
Rick

[Outpost75]

0.002" smaller than bullet diameter is correct for .38 Special service loads with lead bullets.
0.001" for target wadcutter in .38 Special with only enough taper crimp to remove mouth flare.

[silhouette_shooter]

For my RCBS dies I have in the past called RCBS and asked them to send me an oversize expander, which they did. Noticeable improvement.

[Chill Wills]

It is referred to as neck tension. I try to load my centerfire loads with around .001", or maybe a little less. I don't load handgun much but I would think about the same should work well. I'm sure others with more handgun experience will join in to address your question. Your expander diameter is not a good way to tell as the brass will spring back. The difference in diameter of a prepared case before the bullet is seated vs the diameter after a bullet is seated is your neck tension dimension. .005" to .006" is probably sizing down your bullets as they are seated.
Rick

Hey Rick, I tried not to write a novel on my first post so omitted a few items like calling it Neck Tension. I am mostly a rifle shooter too and did not want to guess as to a good number for bullet pull for revolvers.
I use pin gauges and get <0.0005" spring back and that is accounted for.
We are on the same page; I intend to pull a bullet and see the amount of reduction. Stand-by...

Okay, I am back.

I seated and pulled a sample bullet. The as cast run-out of the RCBS bullet is 0.429" on one side of the parting line and 0.431" on the other. After seating in the sized/expanded case (pin gauged about 0.425"+) and then the bullet pulled, the bullet mic'ed rounder at 0.429" on the band behind the GG and 0.427" on the base band.
I intend to measure the same with both light and heavy crimp.
Later, on that test.

The expander is going to get replaced for a side by side test on a set of ammo. This afternoon I turned up a replacement expander to an arbitrary 0.427". It will produce 0.002" less pull than the stock RCBS expander. I will test both side by side when time allows.

I am also interested in how much the crimp reduces the seated bullet diameter.

Crimp, powder type and accuracy are a separate topic at this point.

[Chill Wills]

For my RCBS dies I have in the past called RCBS and asked them to send me an oversize expander, which they did. Noticeable improvement.

Can you provide a little more info on what "Noticeable improvement" is and how you demonstrated it.
Your handle, "silhouette shooter" suggests you are accuracy minded.

Thank you

[Chill Wills]

0.002" smaller than bullet diameter is correct for .38 Special service loads with lead bullets.
0.001" for target wadcutter in .38 Special with only enough taper crimp to remove mouth flare.

Thanks. That is interesting. That suggests that (efficient powder burn aside) in revolvers, like rifles, a zero to 0.001" neck tension would be optimum.

[Outpost75]

Thanks. That is interesting. That suggests that (efficient powder burn aside) in revolvers, like rifles, a zero to 0.001" neck tension would be optimum.

The fast-burners like Bullseye or TiteGroup require no crimp, just removing mouth flare in .38 Special.

In .45 ACP wadcutter a tighter fit, as in service loads, is needed to prevent the bullet from telescoping as rounds stripped from the magazine strike the feed ramp, but 0.002" is usually enough if the feed ramp is polished and ctg. OAL is correct.

With heavy loads of slow burning powders adequate bullet weight to resist primer blast dislodging the bullet and a firm crimp is needed to prevent changes in load density and erratic ignition in full-charge magnum loads. A different breed of cat.

[Chill Wills]

I'm thinking aloud and repeating back...
Light recoiling target ammo is gentile on its unfired brothers. -which is my focus here.
I may turn up an even larger expander and try that too.




With heavy loads of slow burning powders adequate bullet weight to resist primer blast dislodging the bullet and a firm crimp is needed to prevent changes in load density and erratic ignition in full-charge magnum loads. A different breed of cat.


Light target ammo aside, it makes sense that this class of heavy slow burning powder ammo, as referenced in the above quote, will need greater neck tension and a crimp, for both complete powder burn and keeping the bullet from moving in the case during recoil. Something of a belt and suspenders.

Noticing a crimp remaining on the tough 44Special and Mag. fired cases, I measured the restriction using pin gauges. 0.421" is what remained on fired WW 44 mag cases. It appears the crimp never ironed out as the bullet passed through. I can imagine what that hard edged crimp does to the bullet. The carefully crafted ammo fired in honed out cylinders that I read about might be a source of continued inaccuracy if the bullet is damaged on the way out of the case mouth.

For what it is worth, I don't see that the crimp remains on thin brass mouths like the fired 44-40 cases.

[Groo]

Groo here
Are you crimping in the crimp groove or over the front edge???????
ALL pistol rounds should be crimped but the light loads/target / much empty space loads most of all!!!
If using soft . wc,target bullets that "slug up" to fit the chambers and barrel [like hollow base WC]
the bullet pull must be low so as to not deform bullet when seating, the crimp is used to take up the difference.
[Ever see a factory target 38 that did not have a good crimp????]
As we saw in PPC and later , now in Cowboy action, the light loads and no crimp are most likely to have problems..
The Target load "K-boom" caused by the primer moving the bullet before the powder has a chance to "get going" resulting in a hangfire/over pressure is a real but uncommon thing.
I crimp All loads [taper for bullets with out and regular for bullets with a crimp groove or over the front driving band.
Anything done by either standard or taper crimp is nothing compaired to whappens when the bullet leaves the cylinder ,hits the forcing cone , drives into the rifling and leaves the barrel
under several thousand psi of pressure.....

[Chill Wills]

Hey Caveman Groo
I re-read your post. It is helpful.

I crimp in the crimp groove. Even with the 44 WC bullet I seat it out to shorten the trip to the throat and cone. That thinking is the rifle shooter in me.

I just have to experiment with three levels of crimp and see what the target shows.
I have test ammo loaded.
The three levels of crimp might be described as Light (almost no crimp) and check the remaining ammo in the cylinder for bullet movement.
Medium crimp and, Heavy crimp. Heavy crimped cases have already showed me that on the fired case the crimp remains. Not good if it is damaging the bullet or sizing it down on the way out of the case.

I am just waiting for life to offer a chance to get out and shoot some test loads. Than I will have more data and less theory.

Thanks for interest.

[DHDeal]

Your OP got me to thinking. I have a new revolver in 327 Federal that my shooting partner calls a Las Vegas wh¤re (gorgeous, but no matter how much money you throw at it, it'll still break your heart). It should shoot like a rifle, and still does 3" at 50 yards, but it should do better. I'm shooting it off of a very good rest and using a Trijicon SRO with a 1 MOA dot.

Anywho, after reading this last night, I wondered what size my M Die actually was. The M Die is for the 32 H&R and 327 so it should be .312", or so I thought. It's .310" and my cast bullets are sized real close to .313". I don't know, but a good guess would be about .001" spring back on the cases after expanding. Now I'm at .309" +/-. Not a good recipe for success.

To add to that, my 32H&R Redding Profile Crimp Die is a touch undersized too. I measured an uncrimped round and a crimped round and it reduced the loaded round by .001". I pulled a bullet that had been crimped and it reduced that particular bullet to .3117". In short, I'm rattling those bullets down that .312" barrel. Well, maybe they're not rattling, but they sure aren't oversized!

I suppose in my frustration I'm saying that it's not just under expanding cases, it can be the crimp die too.

I ordered a NOE kit with a .313" button and will use the Lyman roll crimp die for my next test. I suspect that this little revolver will start to shine when it's shooting correctly sized bullets.

I wouldn't have looked at all of this if you hadn't started this thread. Thanks!

[Groo]

Groo here
The bullet should be thumb pressure fit or so in the cylinder.
Cylinder chambers should be larger than the barrel by a smudge [ highly techincial term for a little]
If gun is ok, should shoot ..
3 in at 50 yds is not bad.
Will it do that or better with jacket factory??????????????????????????????
A 1MOA dot is 1inch about at 100yds ,, 1/2 inch at 50yds.
1/2 inch "can" be written off due to "slop" of the dot.
Try a different target or way of holding. [like use a square target and place the dot in a corner # also a dot will not show tilting of gun/sight
that can spread you out side to side ..
The corner thing is an old bench rest trick,, the location AND tilt remain the same if the x hairs are placed over the lines at the corner.

[DHDeal]

Groo,
I don't know how it'll shoot with factory ammo or jacket handloads. As I can't find any 115 Speer jacketed bullets, I'll have to stick with my cast (which is what I want to shoot anyway).

After reading this thread it got me to thinking about how much a case will size down a bullet (undersized expander). The Profile Crimp die I suspect was made with jacketed bullets in mind, but I was surprised to see how much it squeezed the loaded round down.

When you go to alot of trouble to size your bullets just so, it pays to take a look at the complete process and not assume that because the dies say .XXX caliber, that they'll be like Goldilocks....

Sorry for the hijack, but I hope my ramblings fit with the intent of the thread.

[Chill Wills]

Doing some experimentation on bullet hardness and expander size shows me that the stock die set expander diameters may not work well with your alloy (hardness), powder selection and revolver cylinder throats. It is kinda like shoes being sold in only one size.

Here is an example.
In about 1990 I treated myself to a life long desire of owning a Colt SA. I bought a used one, third generation, chambered in 45 Colt with little wear on it. Owning a RBH in the same caliber I had RCBS carbide dies and a RCBS 250 SWC mold. Shorting the story, smokeless loads and wheelweight cast bullets all produced poor accuracy. Wondering what might be going on, I tried finger fitting one of the 0.452" bullets in the front of the cylinder throats. They were a rattle fit. On a whim, pure lead 0.452" bullets and a case full of GOEX FFg made the revolver come to life, even shooting to the point of aim at 15 to 25 yards. WOW!

I contacted LBT in Cornville, AZ and had him make me a replica of the old 255 grn conical flat point in a 4 cavity mold. The idea was that the mold cast large enough that bullets fit the throats at 0.456". These new bullets shot smokeless much much better, but not to the point of aim. But, at least they shot accurately. I had my fun and kinda lost interest when other rifle projects got my attention.

The Colt revolver has been mostly taking up space in the safe since.

My recent interest in getting the 44 mag Ruger SBH and my two 44 Special's shooting lead me to measure the expanders. In turn my findings caused me to measure the one in the RCBS 45 Colt set. It is 0.449"+. Brass spring-back allows a 0.449" pin gauge to just enter the brass cases. The as cast 11 BHN LBT bullets are (surprise) 0.459" diameter. Seated in the sized and expanded case, then pulled, they measure 0.456". Hmmmm, just right. That is a 0.003" reduction in diameter from the hard seat in the cases!

I think the relationship between bullet hardness, expander size and throat diameter needs to be considered when trying to make accurate loads. Otherwise one is just guessing and hoping. My rifle accuracy work the last 30 years has made me look at hand gun with a more critical eye to fit and function.

It this point I am thinking that correctly sized bullets of medium hardness (10-12) should only need 2 to 3 thousands neck tension to avoid reducing the bullet's diameter. But is that true? I still need to test that theory in the days to come. "Stay at home" leaves me with time to investigate this :roll:

[tazman]

All this is one of the reasons I use slightly oversize and hardened boolits.
Yes, my boolits are harder than necessary for the usage. The thing is, they work. They shoot accurately and don't lead the barrels on my guns.
I am not going to change a process that works for me.
If I begin having issues, I will rethink that.

There is one 38 special revolver I own that has undersized throats and an even more undersized barrel. No idea why. It just came that way. The fun part is it shoots my normal loads that are made for my "normal" guns just fine.
I expected problems from the throats sizing down the boolits but it has never presented itself.

[USSR]

Now you know why I have several custom-made expanders in .38 and .45 caliber.:)

Don

[Chill Wills]

Now you know why I have several custom-made expanders in .38 and .45 caliber.:)

Don

I agree 100% and appreciate your input.
It is not really a new to me idea, just new in that I am working on revolver accuracy after about 30 plus years of only having eyes for rifles. Black powder cartridge rifles in particular.

I made a new, larger expander for my 44 special die set to replace the RCBS stock expander the other day. I have made countless numbers for my rifles and friends rifles to eek out best accuracy. I make then with out the trumpet flair for starting the bullet. There is a better design in my opinion and that is the "two cylinders, larger and smaller connected by a taper". That name needs fewer words:mrgreen:

This design is much more forgiving on die adjustment and case mouth length.
I will likely turn one up for the 45 Colt but if I do, then I will have to size the bullets smaller from 0.459" down to 0.456". I'll need to think about that and shoot it the way it is before doing anything.

[Chill Wills]

259654

This is a sample of the two cylinder type expander replacement to a more useful custom size.