10 gauge loads

[megasupermagnum]

I figured it was time to post some work I had been doing since last summer. I've had my Ithaca Mag10 for a few years, it is one of my favorites. Last year, about this time, I was walking through a gun store and happened to notice a rifle sighted barrel. It was an SP10 barrel, but I took a chance and bought it. Thankfully Remington did keep most of the dimensions from the Mag10. The SP10 barrel had the same diameter/length shank to fit the receiver, and the gas system was identical. Unfortunately the difference was the bolt notch cut was short by maybe .030". I tried all kinds of gunsmiths, all of them told me it was not possible to fit the barrel. Still, so many had done it before I knew it was possible. Finally I took maters in my own hands. I ground a flat file to the exact width of the bolt notch in the barrel, and made a simple guide to help keep the angle. I then spent a couple hours carefully filing. That barrel is extremely hard, it took about 2 hours to cut .030". To do this I needed to remove the bolt, and using a brand new shell for headpace, I cut until it would just close on the brand new shell.

After all that, I shot the first couple shots with a string. Success. I then glued a strain gage onto the barrel for pressure testing and went to work. The barrel came with a very tight turkey choke. The only source of 10 gauge remchokes I could find was Brileys. I bought an extended cylinder. The bore on Ithaca and Remington 10 gauges is .780" or thereabouts. This "cylinder" choke measures .770", so it's actually an improved cylinder. No response from Briely's about a replacement. The only other thing I did was replace the front sight with a blade, which I prefer.
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The first thing I did was work up some bismuth shot loads. I was getting sick of paying 3x the price for the BPD-10 wad, and it's spotty availability was the final straw. I went with my old steel shot favorite, the SAM1. Using the Pressure trace II system, I found the following load to be ideal. *Warning, the following data was not professionally tested*

Remington 3 1/2" hull
Remington 209 primer
37 grains Bluedot
Sam1 10gauge wad + 20 gauge felt wad in bottom
2 ounces bismuth B shot
PSB buffer
overshot card
fold crimp

11,000 psi MAP
I don't have a record of the velocity, I seem to remember around 1275 fps from my 32" barrel

Note that this load is nearly identical to a load from the Lyman shotgun handbook. In that load, it used the BPD-10 wad with 36 grains Bluedot. The SAM1 wad patterns tighter too. With B shot, it is an honest 50-55 yard goose gun, and I've absolutely smoked some ducks with it too. Notice in the following pictures that the wad gas seals are in great shape. One nice feature of the SAM1 wad is that the gas seal ruptures if pressures are too high. I've never found a ruptured 10 gauge version, but have got ruptures in 12 gauge. They pretty consistently let go around 13,000-14,000 psi. Both the 3" and 3 1/2" 12 gauge versions do. Many 12 gauge 3 1/2" loads using these wads are inconsistent because they run up to the SAMMI maximum, and the ruptured seals ruin consistency.
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After bismuth, I turned to some slug loads. The most obvious choice was a round ball. I also played with my custom Accurate 73-943CN, with improved hollow base, it came in at 1 3/4 oz. Using the latter slug, I couldn't quite get a good fit with wads. I turned to a creative solution that may prove useful for someone in the future. I cut sabot's from milk jugs! I first cut into strips the correct width for the bullet length. I then cut them to length to fully circle the slug, but no more. I finally cut those strips in half, creating two half shells. It's a PITA, but actually works well. In the following picture, you can see all recovered sabot's were in great shape. The problem in this case was the slug. Groups ranged about 2 feet at 50 yards. I don't know why the slug is bad, but it's bad. I get similar performance in 12 gauge, and only a rifled barrel 12 gauge brings those groups down to about 12" at 50 yards. It is a failed slug design. I was impressed with the mild jug sabot's though. The thickness was thinner than a wad, yet very tough, consistent, and economical. I have to think this could be used in other loads.
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Turning to the round ball, I found instant success, as I always do. My first tests were with a .780" ball, and later went to a .784" ball. In my particular gun, the .784" works better for the .780" bore. Load data is easy, I used 1 5/8 oz data. Using the PT II system, I found pressures similar or lower than lead shot data. For example, one load I found was Remington hull, Rem 209 primer, 43.5 gr Bluedot, SP10 wad (plus a bunch of spacers), 1 5/8 oz lead shot, fold crimp. Instead I substituted with a stack of hard card wads, and a round ball. I recorded 8,000 psi. Bluedot works PHENOMENALLY well in 10 gauge. Even at this low pressure, the burn was incredibly clean. Over time I came up with the following load, which I was shooting the other day. *Warning, the following data was not professionally tested*

Remington 3 1/2" hull
Remington 209 primer
45 grains Bluedot
X10X gas seal + (6) 1/8" 10ga nitro cards
3.4 CC scoop PSB buffer
.784" round ball
fold crimp (an overshot card can be used to improve the crimp)

Guestimated velocity at 1350 fps.

It's not quite tack driver, but at around 4" at 50 yards, it is as accurate as any round ball in a smooth bore that I've tried. The following groups were shot on a windy day.

The first went 4" even, 5 shots at 50 yards.
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I then adjusted the sights, and shot these five into 4.5". I also found a box of Federal 1 3/4 oz rifled slug factory ammo, which is the holes with cardboard. They went about 12" at 50 yards. So much for factory slugs being accurate.
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At $12 a box, I didn't want to cut open a shell. My guess is that Federal uses a far too undersized slug. In cutting open 16 gauge slugs, I found federal uses a slug of only .635". That's practically a 20 gauge slug! The 12 and 20 gauge slugs are much more in line with reality, I don't know why they use such poor slugs for 16 and 10 gauge.

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I haven't got any takers on deer hunting with this yet. Recoil is not that bad. A .780" cannonball at 1300+ fps is heavy, but most of the lighter 12 gauge guns are worse.

[cabezaverde]

Thanks for this. I love my SP-10 but have been thinking about selling it and the loading gear. Buddies and I just don't hunt waterfowl anymore.

[bikerbeans]

MSM,

I can no longer shoot heavy recoiling guns so my son has a couple of my 10ga shotguns. One is an H&R 24" barrel with screw in cylinder choke. Drilled and tapped for a rail with a 4x SG scope. I load the 1.7 oz fullbore slugs I cast over 42g of Blue Dot. X 10 x gas seal, stack of nitro cards and a roll crimp. He is taking to the range Friday so should have some target pics.

Back in the day I shot these slugs from this gun using SR 4759. I went to max charge of 95g which gave +1,550 fps. Gun weighs 9 pounds, it hurt to shoot.

I dissected a federal 10ga slug years ago. I don't remember the exact dimension but it was way under bore diameter.

You .784" roundball is gonna put a whoopin' on any deer it encounters.

BB

[megasupermagnum]

MSM,

I can no longer shoot heavy recoiling guns so my son has a couple of my 10ga shotguns. One is an H&R 24" barrel with screw in cylinder choke. Drilled and tapped for a rail with a 4x SG scope. I load the 1.7 oz fullbore slugs I cast over 42g of Blue Dot. X 10 x gas seal, stack of nitro cards and a roll crimp. He is taking to the range Friday so should have some target pics.

Back in the day I shot these slugs from this gun using SR 4759. I went to max charge of 95g which gave +1,550 fps. Gun weighs 9 pounds, it hurt to shoot.

I dissected a federal 10ga slug years ago. I don't remember the exact dimension but it was way under bore diameter.

You .784" roundball is gonna put a whoopin' on any deer it encounters.

BB

No doubt the recoil is an issue. Thankfully being 11.5 pounds, and a gas operated semi-auto, that recoil is well tamed. I tried the H&R 10 gauge, although with a barrel of I believe 30" or so. I love H&R's, but that was too much for me. It was a real flinch machine. My next gun was the Marlin Supergoose. What an unreliable pile that was. I don't think I ever once got all three shots off. It was an over complicated single shot was a bout it. The Browning BPS is a good 10 gauge. With a relatively compact frame, and available in shorter barrels, it can be quite a handy gun. At 10 pounds or so, it wasn't horrible to shoot either. I never got to try a Browning gold10, but the Mag10/SP10 is perfect for me. I want the big 10 gauge for one purpose, and that is to extend the range for waterfowling. The cartridge is one component, but the smooth swing of the Mag10 is the big one for me. Some guns are just right, and for me, I can do incredible work with mine.

While the Mag10 soaks up recoil like no other, I wouldn't want to be shooting any harder than I am now. 45 grains Bluedot is a real wakeup call. 95 grains 4759 through a light little gun like that must have been a real knockout.

I don't know why federal failed so badly with these slugs. The 20 and 12 gauge slugs are remotely close to bore size, why make the 16 and 10 gauge slugs so undersized? They may as well have just put a 20 gauge and 12 gauge slug in each shell and called it good. If I come across another box of the 10 gauge slugs, I'll cut one open.

No doubt my round balls will smack anything. I would not feel bad about using a 10 bore hard cast ball at these kinds of velocities on ANYTHING. It was the original elephant gun for petes sake.

[dsh1106]

MSM
I've been eyeing the one of these 10 gauge autos for awhile now, can you tell me if these have more recoil than my 338 win mag using a 250 grain bullet? I hate to admit that I'm getting old, but my last trip to the range (almost 40 rounds down range) with the 338 had me sore and flinching before I was finished.

I would hate to spend the cash on one of these and just look at it .....

Scott

[megasupermagnum]

Thanks for this. I love my SP-10 but have been thinking about selling it and the loading gear. Buddies and I just don't hunt waterfowl anymore.

I'm guessing the cost to ship wouldn't be worth it for me, but let me know. I'd be interested in hulls if you have them.

[megasupermagnum]

MSM
I've been eyeing the one of these 10 gauge autos for awhile now, can you tell me if these have more recoil than my 338 win mag using a 250 grain bullet? I hate to admit that I'm getting old, but my last trip to the range (almost 40 rounds down range) with the 338 had me sore and flinching before I was finished.

I would hate to spend the cash on one of these and just look at it .....

Scott

That's hard to say. I've never fired a 338 win mag. I've fired a 300 win mag that was not too bad in a bolt, and a 300 win mag in an Encore that left me with a headache. The very best comparison I have is a 12 gauge. I'd say my Mag10 with these high level loads is comparable to a standard 12 gauge, say a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 with strong 2 3/4" or 3" loads. There are some 3" 12 gauge loads that are even worse, and most 3 1/2" 12 gauge loads that really wallop my shoulder. I haven't shot a 3 1/2" 12 gauge load in a good 6-7 years, don't miss it one bit.

There's no reason you can't run less than max loads either. My target shooting loads are 1 5/8 oz, they are not bad at all, comparable to a 1 1/8 oz or 1 1/4 oz 12 gauge load.

[6pt-sika]

I used to own a 338 Win Mag but never shot heavier than 210 grains . Also owned two of the Ithaca Mag 10’s and a Remington SP-10 . I think the Ithaca’s recoiled more then the Remington and I think with a 210 grain bullet the 338 was a skoosh less then the 10 gauge guns . Although not asked I also had a BPS 10 that thing with factory loaded slugs would get after you a bit at the bench . I will say when I first got the SP-10 it was all about 2 1/4 ounce turkey loads . So I shot some turkey targets from a seated position with my back against some support . Back then I crawled the stock something fierce and generally my thumb was right beside my nose . First turkey target I shot seated in a hunting position I thought I broke my nose . Knocked the heck out of me , I reached up felt something wet and didn’t look at my hand . Finally after stomping around 4 or 5 minutes I looked at my hand , no blood ! It had literally knocked the snot out of me :roll:

[megasupermagnum]

The secret for me in bench shooting any heavy recoiling gun is in that last picture. The PAST recoil shield.

[Chad5005]

I don't think I could stand your loads in my nef pardner

[Tripplebeards]

Love my 10 gauges! I currently have a Browning gold National wild turkey federation edition I bought new the first year they came out back in the early 90’s. I had a 30 inch barrel gold 10 gauge and then I traded off for a gold light 10 gauge in a 30 inch barrel and then traded it for the 23 inch browning Turkey edition. It’s my turkey roller with federal 2oz. #5’s. The old discontinued Remington 2 1/4 oz number #6’s were the best patterning shell. I put a red dot on it years ago. I also had a browning 30 inch pump but that thing beat the snot out of me. My other 10 gauge is a Charles Daly side-by-side from the 1890s. It’s currently getting new hammers put on it. Once it’s done I’m taking it out turkey hunting with black powder equivalent bismuth loads. My browning with a full factory choke tube will shoot fist size groups with federal slugs at 75 yards. I use to use it predator hunting years ago when I could buy Remington heavy shot ammo for it before it was discontinued. Since I don’t reload for it and there are really no predator loads for it offered anymore I switched over to my 12 gauge bought discontinued case of 1/7/8 lead BB. Should last me for a while and then some. I believe I still have a box of 25 federal lead BB shot 10 gauge ammo.

[Markopolo]

I sure do agree with you on your wad choice... that Sam1 wad is just the best... i been playing around with them for the last year or so working on Higher velocity, extended range 12g goose loads for jump shooting, and the sam1 wad with the RS-load HV data makes for a whallop load..

congrats on your 10g work... i will be watching!!!

[Tripplebeards]

I see the comment on recoil. That browning pump would knock me back pretty good and after about 25 rounds hunting geese with a T-shirt on Id start to feel it pretty good. I definitely would be sore the next day. My little browning gold semi automatic 10 gauge felt recoil a lot less than a 3” 12 gauge.

[Chad5005]

I do have a sloans sg&co sxs 10 gauge with 32 1/2 inch barrels that they might not be bad in because of weight

[megasupermagnum]

I don't think I could stand your loads in my nef pardner

The round ball could easily be tamed down. I've seen data for Unique or Green dot powder that could be used. Dialed back to 1000 fps or so, these would be nothing in your NEF. The bismuth load kicks, I wouldn't recommend them. I really couldn't recommend any full power 10 gauge load for any single shot.

That's an interesting thought Tripplebeards. My 32" barrel is full, that might be able to overcome the undersized slug. I'm not looking to make this a great deer gun though, I just like experimenting. one thing I'll try next time is to shoot the slug barrel without the choke in it. My guess is no change, but you never know. The way I turkey hunt, I don't need the range. If I was to want to hunt say Nebraska, this mag10 would top the list. I've seen some real stomper turkey loads in 10 gauge, 2 1/2 ounce or more. Then again, with what guys can do with the new TSS 18 g/cc #9 shot, it's kind of a pointless game now. I still shoot lead shot for everything but ducks.

The SAM1 is a fantastic wad. I'll go so far as to say it is the best one-piece solid steel style wad made this far. It patterns fantastic, is always available for a good price, and it shoots higher velocities with lower pressures. It also has a built in safety feature. The BPD 10 is fine wad, although I can't find anything better about it than the SAM1. At $19 per hundred for the BPD10, it's a ripoff. The SAM1 was something like $9.50 per hundred. There is the TPS wad, previously the multi-metal, but load data is so limited. The BPD 10 has been around forever, and the resulting load data is the only advantage. Do not waste time with the steel wads from Precision Reloading. The 10 gauge version is the TUPRW105. It is exactly as it sounds, tupperware. Low velocities, high pressures, and poor patterns. It's a looser all around.

[Chad5005]

I haven't shot either much,hardly ever find shells around here and if you do it#4,thanks for the info,i need get the stuff to load for them

[megasupermagnum]

I haven't shot either much,hardly ever find shells around here and if you do it#4,thanks for the info,i need get the stuff to load for them

I love loading for the 16 gauge, and the cost savings are huge. The 10 gauge however has both cost and performance gains from reloading. A good example is steel shot, none of the factory loads are that much more than a 3 1/2" 12 gauge. In reloading, if you pick the right combo, you can surpass those loads by quite a bit. I'm in the minority, in that I never loved high velocity steel shot. Where most guys would choose something like 1 3/8 ounce of BB at 1600+ fps, my preferred 10 gauge load was 1 3/4 ounce of T at something like 1250 fps. T shot is horrendous in 12 gauge, but patterns fantastically well in 10 gauge, at least mine does. Those loads still can't touch these bismuth B loads, so I don't miss them.

[longbow]

msm have you (or anybody else here) stacked 0.360" RB's in 3's in a 10 ga.? I have to think that 15 or 12 or even 9 x 0.360" RB's in a 10 ga. would be a fearsome load! I'd think in a pump or semiauto it would be devastating to send a few loads downrange in short order. Kinda like that many .357's being shot at once. For that matter two quick shots from a side by would be a lot of lead FAST!

RB's aren't very ballistically efficient but out to 50 yards or so it would be pretty impressive I have to think.

Just curious. The only 10 ga. I have is what used to be a very nice W.C. Scott & Son Damascus barreled gun that have been badly abused and neglected but the beautiful gun it used to be still shows through a bit. I have to see if I can get some parts and re-build it one day.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

msm have you (or anybody else here) stacked 0.360" RB's in 3's in a 10 ga.? I have to think that 15 or 12 or even 9 x 0.360" RB's in a 10 ga. would be a fearsome load! I'd think in a pump or semiauto it would be devastating to send a few loads downrange in short order. Kinda like that many .357's being shot at once. For that matter two quick shots from a side by would be a lot of lead FAST!

RB's aren't very ballistically efficient but out to 50 yards or so it would be pretty impressive I have to think.

Just curious. The only 10 ga. I have is what used to be a very nice W.C. Scott & Son Damascus barreled gun that have been badly abused and neglected but the beautiful gun it used to be still shows through a bit. I have to see if I can get some parts and re-build it one day.

Longbow

No, but they stack in 2's in most wads. You actually predicted my current experiment of buckshot. I'm going to try 000, but also 0000 (.380"), which stacks in 2's perfectly without a wad cup. It bums me out so much that I'm not allowed to buck hunt with buckshot here in MN. It's looking like 10 of 0000 fits just about right so far, and 12 of 000 fits decent in the SAM1. Wicked deer rounds for sure.

I'm still working on the 12 gauge loads. So far the winner seems to be 10 pellets 000 in a 2 3/4" hull. Talk about short magnum!

[6pt-sika]

The secret for me in bench shooting any heavy recoiling gun is in that last picture. The PAST recoil shield.

I’ve got one of those vile things hanging in my loading room . I’d rather deal with the recoil than that uncomfortable thing .

[megasupermagnum]

I’ve got one of those vile things hanging in my loading room . I’d rather deal with the recoil than that uncomfortable thing .

To each his own. I've got the super mag +, the thickest one they have. Under a jacket, I forget it's even there.

[6pt-sika]

I’ve had some luck with 00 , 000 , 0000 (.380) and 00000 (.395) having killed deer with them all in 2 7/8” 10’s . I used to put the 00 and 000 in the SP-10 shotcup , but after getting the 0000 and 00000 to work without the petals and a mylar wrap I’ve gone to petalless for the others . I also still add buffer with the mylar wrap loads . Well I use buffer in all my buck loads but at first I didn’t when I’d remove the petals . I should go on and get some of the BPI already chopped has seal wads or whatever you call them , but trimming the others seems to work well enough . And I’ve got 25 of each size 0-00000 loaded so I doubt I use them up anytime soon unless I get a new to me Parker 10 and wanna test it .

[6pt-sika]

In the 2 7/8” hulls I’m getting eight of the 0000 (.380) and six of the 00000 (.395) .

[6pt-sika]

To each his own. I've got the super mag +, the thickest one they have. Under a jacket, I forget it's even there.

That the same one I have . I didn’t wear it under a coat . But I don’t care for it changing the LOP .

[megasupermagnum]

Can you provide some more details on the .395" buck? I'm using Remington hulls myself, which seem fairly thick compared to Federal. I feel like two .395" balls, plus wrap would cause chambering issues. .380" has a little wiggle room, but not much.

Have you tried without mylar wraps? I'm using them in 12 gauge, as the hulls I'm using shred during firing if I don't. In a higher quality hull it seems they hold up just fine without the wrap, and I've not conclusively found that they pattern better or worse.

[megasupermagnum]

That the same one I have . I didn’t wear it under a coat . But I don’t care for it changing the LOP .

I use mine even with a T shirt, it just has more tendency to snag. The LOP is definitely a problem for me with scopes, but has not with sights. The recoil pad is annoying compared to not using it, but I prefer it to getting slammed all day. I only use it for the bench, where speed is no concern.

[Tripplebeards]

I forgot i had a nef single shot 10 gauge before i bought my first browning. Cool little gun. It came with an extended choke at the time and i didnt know why because no one made chokes for it.

[6pt-sika]

Can you provide some more details on the .395" buck? I'm using Remington hulls myself, which seem fairly thick compared to Federal. I feel like two .395" balls, plus wrap would cause chambering issues. .380" has a little wiggle room, but not much.

Have you tried without mylar wraps? I'm using them in 12 gauge, as the hulls I'm using shred during firing if I don't. In a higher quality hull it seems they hold up just fine without the wrap, and I've not conclusively found that they pattern better or worse.

.395 balls do not stack you can’t get two in a layer but it works out I can get six in there with the petals removed . I like the mylar wrap and hopefully it cuts down a little on lead smears inside the barrel . I pretty much only use Remington hulls , buy a couple hundred new each year .

[megasupermagnum]

Interesting. I don't have a .395" mold at the moment, but I found I can fit 6 .457" ballls in there, which makes about 2 ounces. I could maybe get 7 with a roll crimp.

[6pt-sika]

Interesting. I don't have a .395" mold at the moment, but I found I can fit 6 .457" ballls in there, which makes about 2 ounces. I could maybe get 7 with a roll crimp.

You’re using a longer hull than I am and I assume you’re using the thinner BPI gas seal wad versus the thicker base of the SP-10 wad that I use . I try and keep the payload between 1 1/4 - 1 3/4 ounces .

[megasupermagnum]

You’re using a longer hull than I am and I assume you’re using the thinner BPI gas seal wad versus the thicker base of the SP-10 wad that I use . I try and keep the payload between 1 1/4 - 1 3/4 ounces .

I was comparing with the X10X and nitro card. Nothing wrong with a lighter load. My gun cycles 1 1/2 ounce no problem, 1 1/4 was too light. Maybe in the future I'll try the .395", but since I have the .457", I may as well try that.

[6pt-sika]

I was comparing with the X10X and nitro card. Nothing wrong with a lighter load. My gun cycles 1 1/2 ounce no problem, 1 1/4 was too light. Maybe in the future I'll try the .395", but since I have the .457", I may as well try that.

You’re missing the point . You’re using a 3 1/2” Hull and the thinner gas seal wad . I’m using a 2 7/8” Hull and the thicker base of the SP-10 . I put all the pellets I can in the hull using what I’ve got and it’s just as well since most all of my 10’s are damascus or twist barrels .

[megasupermagnum]

You’re missing the point . You’re using a 3 1/2” Hull and the thinner gas seal wad . I’m using a 2 7/8” Hull and the thicker base of the SP-10 . I put all the pellets I can in the hull using what I’ve got and it’s just as well since most all of my 10’s are damascus or twist barrels .

Absolutely. And you are getting some real firepower from those "weak" old guns. I too like to use wads with cut off petals for some things.

[megasupermagnum]

I've been playing more with buckshot and slugs. In the 10 gauge, I tried a few things. One was a buck and ball load of six 000 buck, and a .784" ball. Unfortunately this load tears the hull up bad when firing. I think if I added a Mylar wrap around the shot, it may cure this. For large buckshot, I tried some .460" balls. While I can get 6 in, 5 fits a lot better, and brings the payload to about 1 5/8 ounce. My load was Rem hull, Rem primer, 40gr Bluedot, x10x, Nitrocard, mylar wrap, 5 pellets .460" buckshot, buffered, fold crimped. This got me only 8,700 psi. I think I'll try 41 grains, and pattern it in my full choke barrel.
I tried slugs, the .784" balls again, this time with 46 grains Bluedot. I shot without a choke this time, and accuracy was not effected in the slightest. both 5 shot groups went right at 4.25" at 50 yards, and to the same point of aim. I'll likely just keep using the choke. Velocity was 1310 fps, with effectively a 20" barrel. With choke brings it to 23", and may be a touch faster.
Some had asked about recoil of this gun. Before doing any 10 gauge, I was shooting my 12 gauge ultra slug hunter. I was shooting the Accurate 73-770S slug. The load was a Federal new top gun hull, Fed 209a, 30gr bluedot, x12x and 3 nitro cards, fold crimped. Accuracy was very good, 4" CTC at 100 yards. Velocity was likely around 1100 fps, I did not test. Recoil of this was significantly more than the Mag10 with mentioned slug load. Night and day. The USH isn't light either, at around 9 pounds currently. The only thing the mag10 has is more muzzle blast with its shorter barrel and huge powder charge.

Speaking of the USH, I tried one load I've thought about for a while, it's a flop, so I will not post data. It was a .715" ball patched with pillow ticking, exactly as I would use in a muzzleloader, patch lubed with crisco. I rammed this combo down the bore, and found it a nice snug fit, but not too tight. I pushed the ball and patch in the hull during loading, and cut off flush with the hull, just like cutting a patch at the muzzle. I was pleased with the following group at 50 yards for a first attempt. The bad, I only pulled half a shell out of the gun after shooting. I could find no patches on the ground, and had a good idea why. BEHIND the 50 yard target I found the patches and hulls. What I created was a knife-free cut shell. I can't believe these shot as good as they did. I don't know any way to fix this, so I'm scrapping the idea. I may try the same ball with a mylar wrap for a patch.

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