Chamber ringing

[DonHowe]

I have been reading an old thread, The Proper Use Of Fillers, and regarding possibility of ringing chambers saw a reference to "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" by Charlie Dell and Wayne Schwartz (sp?). In said book Mr. Dell wrote of extensive testing re: chamber ringing and how he was able in testing he was able to ring chambers at will.
I do not wish to imply that I have superior intellect to Charlie Dell nor do I wish to denigrate his work. There is however an aspect of this I wish to point out. Some years back on ASSRA Forum (the schuetzen crowd) there was much debate on the subject of ringing, case fillers, etc. Al.
Some members who knew Charlie Dell personally said that his testing in which he was able to produce chamber rings at will was done with BRASS barrel stubs. I understand his use of brass as it allowed him to easily demonstrate forces at work in various loading scenarios.
I post this to point out the difference between strengths especially yield strengths. Between high strength steel ( particularly chrome moly steel). Yield strength represents the point beyond which a stressed material will not return to it's original shape when stress is removed. Yield strength for 4130 steel is ~ 63000psi while that of brass is 20 000 - 30000psi.
I can see Mr Dell's work bearing directly on old rifles with soft steel barrels.

[Outpost75]

When I worked in Ruger's engineering department at the Newport, NH facility in the 1980s I examined HUNDREDS of .45-70 single-shot rifles returned to Customer Service for "hard extraction." EVERY SINGLE ONE exhibited ringed chambers, some of them having multiple rings where you could identify different weight bullets were used, according to where the bases of different weight bullets were located. And these were modern rifles constructed of 4140CM steel and properly heat treated.

Of course few customers would admit that they used handloads, but the evidence was crystal clear.

I have also examined dozens of M1 Garand rifles having ringed chambers part way up the chamber neck, precisely where the base of the 152-grain Ball M2 bullet was located. These were caused by firing certain lots of ammunition assembled with WC852 powder which left significant free airspace in the case, which caused erratic ignition. No filler was involved at all, but the "plug" of powder acted like a projectile and the bullet base as a bore obstruction. These chamber rings were thoroughly investigated by the Army and are well documented in American Rifleman articles at the time. Again, modern steels and heat treatment.

When I was on the NRA technical staff in the 1970s the same .30-'06 chamber ringing was reproduced in a Garand and also in a Winchester Model 70 bolt gun attempting to develop a Ball M2 duplication load with 150-grain bullets and Winchester 748 powder, and also with Hodgdon Ball C2 which left excessive free airspace in the case and was found unsuited for those conditions of loading. Again no fillers used and modern steel barrels.

While use of wads or inert fillers pushed down against the powder charge are a contributing factor in chamber ringing, delayed ignition and reflected longitudinal pressure waves are a also an underlying cause. This mechanism has been studied extensively in artillery, but less so in small arms.

But please do read Larry Gibson's treatise on proper use of fillers for the best concise info.

[murf205]

In the latest edition of Handloader, John Barsness states that he used a card wad on top of a charge of Blackhorn 209, a black powder substitute. I sent him a question and he replied that the Western Powders lab recommended a wad for Blackhorn 209 and that it was because of the fact that it burned like black powder but he did not explain why. So, my question remains, since black powder is almost an explosion, why can a wad over the charge not ring a chamber?

[Outpost75]

In the latest edition of Handloader, John Barsness states that he used a card wad on top of a charge of Blackhorn 209, a black powder substitute. I sent him a question and he replied that the Western Powders lab recommended a wad for Blackhorn 209 and that it was because of the fact that it burned like black powder but he did not explain why. So, my question remains, since black powder is almost an explosion, why can a wad over the charge not ring a chamber?

In a wadded BP charge there is no airspace between the wad and the base of the bullet. But if you loaded less than a case full of powder and then shoved the wad down onto the powder so there was airspace between the wad and bullet base, you will very likely ring the chamber. Maybe not on the first pop, but it isn't something you want to do repeatedly!

[murf205]

Not to worry. I have been warned by 3 people whose opinions I value, yours being the 3rd. My foolish handloading days are way past now, hopefully. Thanks.

[DonHowe]

A friend produce a ring in the chamber of a Shiloh .45-70 by seating a card ward down the case directly on a "manual" charge of 5744 powder. The Shiloh barrel is modern steel. My original post was not intended to mean modern steel barrels are immune. I'm just stating, sing Mr. Dell's book and experimentation was cited, the caveat that it was done with brass, not with modern steel.
The evidence cited by Outpost75 is reminder enough to take nothing for granted in reloading or shooting.
I should mention, the 63ksi number is for non heat treated alloy steel. Hardened it can easily be 50% to 100% (and beyond) higher in yield strength.

I still maintain the safest case filler is black powder.

[gunther]

in response to Ed's comments in post #2: I've been using 14 gr Red Dot, the Lee 220 gr bullet, acww, gas checked, but not sized, miked .340-.341, hand lubed with Ford moly ep, in a 338 win 1B for around 400 loads from 42 necked up 7 mag and 338 cases. Bullets seated even with the base of the neck. There have been 2 case neck failures, Lost the front 1/8th inch of a 338 case both times. The bullets are seated even with the base of the neck. 2 MOA, no leading. 10 shots in 5 minutes will warm up the barrel.
Is this a result of the same phenomenon, or am I worrying too much? Suggestions for a better load, at similar velocities?

[clintsfolly]

I had the pleasure of knowing Wayne Schwartz. If it was in a book with his name on the cover you can rest assured that the information was tested and reviewed to the best of his knowledge and skill. He was a true gentleman,great gunsmith and I am proud that he would introduce me as his friend.