do most of yall loading for belted magnums use the larry willis collect sizer

[Chad5005]

just starting to load for 300wm and 7mm rem mag and have been doing a lot of reading about the bulge problem above the belt,i read the post from 2015 and saw a lot of argument about it

[M-Tecs]

One of these days I am going to purchase one simply because I like gadgets. That being said I have never had an issue not using one. I view them same as small base dies. I own a small base dies in .223, 308 and 30-06. In over 100K loaded I have never had to use one with the exception of a batch of 5.56 that was fired in a SAW.

[Chad5005]

ive been going thru my brass and had about 40 out of 350 300wm cases with a noticeable bulge and about 25 out of 300 7mm cases,i ordered one cause like you I like gadgets lol

[rbuck351]

I don't have one as I have never had a problem loading for the belted cases with normal dies. I don't push my loads until the bolt gets sticky or the primers flatten badly so I don't get the bulge.

[cwtebay]

Okay - please pardon my ignorance. I have loaded 338 WM, 458WM, and several Weatherby cartridges for years and don't know about the bulge?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[M-Tecs]

Okay - please pardon my ignorance. I have loaded 338 WM, 458WM, and several Weatherby cartridges for years and don't know about the bulge?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


http://larrywillis.com/

Belted magnum cartridges have been around for over 50 years, and most shooters that reload them are familiar with the case bulge problem that occurs "just above" the belt. This usually happens after just 2 or 3 firings - wasting perfectly good cases. Many shooters have discovered this problem when they find their handloads begin to stick in their chamber, or when they no longer chamber at all.

Unlike non-belted cases, the belt prevents conventional full length dies from traveling far enough down the case. This limits the amount of resizing, and brass is plowed rearward. The brass builds up just above the belt at each reloading, and cases expand. Neck sizing dies don't bump the shoulder back or resize the tapered case wall. The best solution is to full length resize accurately, and use this collet die to reduce case width.

Our patented Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die solves this problem and has other unique features. The top of this die is a case width gauge that shows when a little "extra" case resizing is required. This resizing die is used to eliminate the case bulge above the belt, after using your full length (or) neck sizing die. Our collet die ensures that your belted magnum ammo will always chamber properly and your cases are now able to last for up to 20 firings, even when using the hottest handloads. Our resizing die uses a collet that fits over the cartridge case, until it bottoms against the belt. The case is then pressed into the sizing die. The collet allows your case to go farther into the die where it only reduces the area "just above" the belt.

This ONE die and collet is universal and works on ALL of the popular belted magnum calibers including: .257 Weatherby Magnum, 6.5 Remington Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum, .270 Weatherby Magnum, 7 x 61 Sharpe & Hart, 7mm Remington Magnum, 7mm Weatherby Magnum, 7mm STW, .300 H&H Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, .300 Weatherby Magnum, .308 Norma Magnum, 8mm Remington Magnum, .338 Winchester Magnum, .340 Weatherby Magnum, .350 Remington Magnum, .358 Norma Magnum, .375 H&H Magnum, .416 Remington Magnum, .458 Winchester Magnum, .458 Lott Magnum and several belted wildcat cartridges. There are no extra collets to buy when resizing different calibers. The U.S. Secret Service was one of our first customers to purchase this product.

This popular collet die is now used by well over 6,000 shooters. Sometimes, the high cost of manufacturing this item requires us to build a waiting list before the next production run is back on the shelf.

[Chad5005]

One of these days I am going to purchase one simply because I like gadgets. That being said I have never had an issue not using one. I view them same as small base dies. I own a small base dies in .223, 308 and 30-06. In over 100K loaded I have never had to use one with the exception of a batch of 5.56 that was fired in a SAW.

I hope not to have a problem and regular dies may fix the bulge im seeing,may not be as bad as I think,but if I do ill have the tool to fix it,ive never had a problem with 5.56 myself but I do have a set of small base dies just incase

[cwtebay]

http://larrywillis.com/

Belted magnum cartridges have been around for over 50 years, and most shooters that reload them are familiar with the case bulge problem that occurs "just above" the belt. This usually happens after just 2 or 3 firings - wasting perfectly good cases. Many shooters have discovered this problem when they find their handloads begin to stick in their chamber, or when they no longer chamber at all.

Unlike non-belted cases, the belt prevents conventional full length dies from traveling far enough down the case. This limits the amount of resizing, and brass is plowed rearward. The brass builds up just above the belt at each reloading, and cases expand. Neck sizing dies don't bump the shoulder back or resize the tapered case wall. The best solution is to full length resize accurately, and use this collet die to reduce case width.

Our patented Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die solves this problem and has other unique features. The top of this die is a case width gauge that shows when a little "extra" case resizing is required. This resizing die is used to eliminate the case bulge above the belt, after using your full length (or) neck sizing die. Our collet die ensures that your belted magnum ammo will always chamber properly and your cases are now able to last for up to 20 firings, even when using the hottest handloads. Our resizing die uses a collet that fits over the cartridge case, until it bottoms against the belt. The case is then pressed into the sizing die. The collet allows your case to go farther into the die where it only reduces the area "just above" the belt.

This ONE die and collet is universal and works on ALL of the popular belted magnum calibers including: .257 Weatherby Magnum, 6.5 Remington Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum, .270 Weatherby Magnum, 7 x 61 Sharpe & Hart, 7mm Remington Magnum, 7mm Weatherby Magnum, 7mm STW, .300 H&H Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, .300 Weatherby Magnum, .308 Norma Magnum, 8mm Remington Magnum, .338 Winchester Magnum, .340 Weatherby Magnum, .350 Remington Magnum, .358 Norma Magnum, .375 H&H Magnum, .416 Remington Magnum, .458 Winchester Magnum, .458 Lott Magnum and several belted wildcat cartridges. There are no extra collets to buy when resizing different calibers. The U.S. Secret Service was one of our first customers to purchase this product.

This popular collet die is now used by well over 6,000 shooters. Sometimes, the high cost of manufacturing this item requires us to build a waiting list before the next production run is back on the shelf.Thank you! Guess I'm a little lost as to why I haven't encountered this? I do full length resize each time and get 7-10 uses out of each piece. I just went through my bins and can't see (or measure with calipers) a bulge in the few I grabbed. Is that because I do full length resize?

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[Muddydogs]

Guess I'm not one of the shooters that know about the bulge problem in belted mags but what do I know I've only been loading for the 7mm RM for 35 years and never had a bulge in a case with brass that has 10 loading's on it. Haven't loaded for the 300 WM nearly as long but I have yet to see a bulge as well. Sounds like a solution looking for a problem kind of like the small base dies people think they need to load 223.

[M-Tecs]

This is just a guess on my part so take it for what it's worth. I can see great benefit if you are using brass fired in a larger chamber that has issues when chambered in a tighter chamber. That is no different than small base dies. When I shot 1,000 yard Highpower with a 300 Win Mag. loosening primer pockets was my only case related issues. While not belted mag when I neck size only on bottlenecked cases I do have to use a shoulder bump die occasionally to bump the shoulder back. Shoulder bump dies do not size the body. Never had an issue with cases binding above the web.

[Minerat]

I have been using one for about 5 years now. The version I have works for any belted mag based on the 300 H&H so my 7mm Rem mag & 300 WBY fall in this category.

I was getting about 3 reloads on the 7 mag when the cases started to get difficult to chamber. I even sent my dies back to RCBS to see if they were out of specification and when they came back as OK then I thought is was the case stretching so I got a neck trimmer and turner. NO luck. I was running mid range loads not primer crushers or rip snorters. I was having to replace brass that, other then being sticky, was good. I started doing Internet research and came across the Collet sizer and decided to give it a go.

It has the case checker that you drop the case in and if it goes plunk then it is good to go. I now drop the cases in the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die after cleaning and sizing just to be sure they are in spec before reloading. My belted mags are big game hunting guns and I now run them as magnums using premium jacketed bullets. I quit worrying if the next round was going to chamber when 3 miles in from the road and was lined up on a big bull. It was worth every penny I paid and has paid of itself just from the cases I have salvaged that would not chamber.

[Chad5005]

M-Tecs and Minerat thanks for your input.

[rbuck351]

What I want to know is, if the case comes out of the rifle without a hard lift and pull on the bolt, why won't it go back in and how did the bulge get there while the case was out of the camber. I shoot several belted mags and haven't had this problem. I did pick up some 300 H&H cases that not only were bulged ahead of the belt but were over sized at the belt and had loose primers as well as very flat primers. Those went in the trash. If I ever run into a problem of bulges ahead of the belt I'll drill a hole in a piece of 7/8 14 all thread and ream it to the proper size and fix the bulge.
When I first started loading I had a problem with some 7mm mag cases breaking off just ahead of the belt. I learned to back off on the sizer die until it just didn't set the shoulder back. No more case head separation. I load all my bottle neck brass that way now and am getting good case life.
All my hunting ammo is checked in the rifle before I go to the field with it. You never know, something could have happened even in a storage box on the shelf.

[M-Tecs]

The question I have is why some folks have issue and some don't? Is it just luck/bad luck or something specific or a combination of things that makes it an issue for some?

[FLINTNFIRE]

Good question as in all my loading and shooting 7mm rem mag 300 win mag 264 win mag and 30-338 I have never encountered this either , and would be inclined as to a chamber specific problem on some rifles or bad brass , glad mine do not have the issue , but if one did I would get his die to use for that firearm or try a new barrel.

[Three44s]

Yes, good question.

I do not shoot a lot of magnum rounds but I do have and load for several magnum rifles in a number of different magnum cartridges and while I am aware of the Willis collet sizer, I have not needed one yet.

If I needed one I would buy one but as long as that “dog lays sleeping” why spend the money?

Three44s

[Minerat]

I think it is luck of the draw. My 7mm is a 1980' Savage 110, my 300 Weatherby is a 1990 model. I did not start having problems with the 7mm until about the 3rd reload and total chambering failure at #5. The WBY has never failed to chamber but it gets difficult at around #5. My buddy shoots a 7mm Ruger 77 that dates to the 1980's and he has the problem at #4.

I also think that it is more common then we think but most guys just pitch the brass if it gets finicky and never figure out the cause. I find it at the range and pick it up to see if it has the problem. The test is fast and simple so if the pickup does not pass it goes in the recycle bin. I figure it has been reloaded at least as many times as mine so just don't trust it.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I don't reload a great deal of belted magnum rounds but have never experienced this problem.

I used to reload .264Magnum for a friend with no chambering issues or any other problems for that matter.
Now that I am reloading for my 7mmMagnum I have had no problems whatsoever.

Having said that, this is good information to have and will keep it in mind going forward.
Not going to buy this tooling until I have a demonstrable problem however. Should this isuue manifest itself I will probably get one and see if it alleviates the problem.

[Chad5005]

ive shot a ruger m77 mark ii 300 wm for years but not often so I never loaded for it.now im restocking it,doing a trigger job and adding a terminator muzzle brake and building my wife a Remington 700 with a brake.so ive started collecting brass for these 2 and reading a lot about reloading them,when I started checking brass was when I found the cases with this issue so I ordered the collet die,i don't think my ruger has a problem but ill be checking it out when its ready to fire

[ShooterAZ]

I use a combination of the RCBS neck sizing die, and a Redding Body die and have never had the bulge problem. I can "usually" get to a dozen reloads before the primer pockets start to get loose, and I run them on the warm side. I also have a RCBS BAR sizing die that I use once if I'm using brass that was shot in a different rifle than mine.

[Ateam]

I will second the redding body die. I started getting hard to chamber rounds at loading #3, the body die took care of it. I assume the bulge comes from having two different head spacing surfaces (the shoulder and the belt). I am not sure but I assume that when I neck size and headspace off the shoulder some portion of the case is not as well supported near the belt. Just a guess. Oh yeah, 300wm, tika t3.

[Gunners Mate]

I have one of Larry's collet sizing dies and use it on all my belted mags its an awesome die
6.5 Rem Mag
300 Win Mag
7mm Rem Mag
270 Wby Mag
350 Rem Mag

[winelover]

Never had an brass related issues with my M-70 Classic 338W, other than case growing. Which is standard for belted mags. Solve that problem with RCBS X-die when full length sizing.

Winelover

[dverna]

Seems like a useful tool if you shoot a lot of magnum rounds. Brass is not cheap.

Hard to justify for most people. Use new or once fired cases for hunting (maybe 10/year) and the older cases for load development and sighting in. But I am recoil sensitive and do not shoot my .300 Mag for "fun".

.300 Win Mag on sale now:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021376788

I got a couple of hundred cases when I got my .300 and have never loaded any more than twice so not sure if I will have the problem. I have been using Lee dies so nothing fancy. Good info though, in case I run into an issue.

[trebor44]

If you buy 'used' magnum cases it is good to have on hand. I have one and have used it over the years and was glad to have it on hand for those 'bargain' buys of 'once' fired cases. I do both 7 rem mag and 300 win mag. It may not be for everyone but it was a good investment for me.

[kaiser]

First of all I appreciate the information given by all in this post. Second, I think F&F hit on, what may be the main problem with many Magnum chambered rifles - the chambers that have been cut a bit too large (but still in specs). I have one of those larger chambered rifles in a Weatherby Vanguard 7RemMag that has a Weatherby 7MagWthy barrel with a 1:10" twist. In addition to the slightly larger chamber, it also has a longer lead, considered "Freebore", that slows down factory loads. While this freebore reduces pressures and velocity, it can also be used to enhance the bullet speed by using longer than normal (COAL) dimensions when loading, thus giving more space in the cartridge for powder.

When I first started loading for this rifle I could usually only get 5 to 7 loads out of most brands of brass. The tell-tell bright ring around the base, just in front of the belt, would appear and could be felt inside with a bent paper clip (Warning of impending head separation!).
Next, I started partial resizing the case after the first firing and bought a Lee Collet die to neck resize only; however, It did not increase my reloading count by more than a couple of rounds. I ended up relegating much of my brass that had been fired over 5 times (without defects) to mid-range and reduced loading.

My current procedure, mentioned by a "scribe" in one of the shooting magazines is: a) fireform new brass with a reduced load b) Neck size, or partial size the cases for the next and subsequent loading until they do not chamber easily, then full length resize c) load the case as you would normally load, all the way to your "recorded maximum" loads.
I have been using this method of loading for better than a year now and have reached the threshold of the point the "bright right" usually appears, but so far has not. All these newer cases still chamber easily and appear to have quit stretching beyond that of comparable .270 or 30/06 cases loaded multiple times (above the 7 time criteria).

The theory is that because the 7RemMag has a belt (that's not needed) and a 25 degree shoulder it seeks to headspace off the shoulder. The first firing of the cartridge thusly causes the brass to stretch further in a larger chamber weakening the case in front of the belt from the get go, just like a non-belted case with a headspace problem! The results is the damage has already been done to the overly stretched brass on the very first firing (including factory rounds) and subsequent firings show pressure signs much earlier than expected.

My testing will continue now that I have 100 new cases in two different brands that has been fireformed and shot multiple times. I will report my findings at a latter date when the weather improves.

[djryan13]

Onto 3-4x sizings on 300WM without a problem chambering. Always full length size using a Redding die. I have no doubt this can be a problem with some setups or chambers. I just haven’t had a problem yet.

[Chad5005]

Seems like a useful tool if you shoot a lot of magnum rounds. Brass is not cheap.

Hard to justify for most people. Use new or once fired cases for hunting (maybe 10/year) and the older cases for load development and sighting in. But I am recoil sensitive and do not shoot my .300 Mag for "fun".

.300 Win Mag on sale now:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021376788

I got a couple of hundred cases when I got my .300 and have never loaded any more than twice so not sure if I will have the problem. I have been using Lee dies so nothing fancy. Good info though, in case I run into an issue.

midsouth shooters supply always has Hornady brass cheap,they buy bulk and break it down in 100 bags,all calibers

[Chad5005]

well I got my larry willis die in today,time to get some cases cleaned and sized to see how many really need this,but at .51 cents to a dollar apiece for cases it doesnt have to save many to pay for it self

[1hole]

The question I have is why some folks have issue and some don't? Is it just luck/bad luck or something specific or a combination of things that makes it an issue for some?

It's luck. It's not a matter of die brands, rifle brands or case brands, as such. Everything made by man has a range of "in tolerance" dimensions, usually just a few thousanths in each direction, and all brands follow the same SAAMI specifications so it doesn't matter what color die box you buy. Thus, it's pure bad luck if your tools stack tolerances toward the "too tight" side for your snug chamber. And slightly soft cases accelerate the swelling that can lead to chambering difficulties. But, most magnum reloaders will never experience that problem so they don't need a solution.

I don't have a belted case rifle in my safe and never will, but I reload for a few friends who do. When one guy started having trouble chambering his several times reloaded cases I checked his chamber and FL sized case dimensions just ahead of the belt. I found his sticky cases were at max plus 1/2 thou above SAAMI diameter and his chamber was on the small side of SAAMI; a half thou is close but it's a lot of metal-to-metal difference when pushing on a bolt!

That was some 40 years ago, the excellent Willis collet sizer die wasn't available back then. I found a yard sale set of magnum dies and modified the sizer so it would squeeze the cases a tad more above the belt, about 2-3 thou smaller than the original sizer did; that fixed it.

SAAMI max diameter above the belt is .512". I lathe cut off the bottom of the die until the belt relief was gone and the internal diameter was .510". Then I ran a cheep 1/2" carbide concrete drill bit (to cut the case hardened steel) down from the top and stopped it about 1/8" above the bottom of the die, then smoothed and polished the exposed hard cased skin, inside and out. I push the cases into that die to just kiss the top of the belt, it puts the loaded belt bulge down to the middle of the SAAMI case tolerance range and everything works fine.

Wish I'd thought to market it. Never guessed it was a common enough problem to sell my "invention". Oh well, I still have my Social Security check coming in so what's another million $, more or less. ??

[M-Tecs]

Like I stated I don't know why some have issues and some don't. What I do know is my personal experience. While I have several belted mag rifles the only ones that I have put a lot of rounds through are 1,000 yard rifles on 7mm Rem. Mag or 300 Win Mag. I do all my own barreling and chambering. I also do some work for friends.

I custom spec my reamers. I use carbide exclusively mostly from PTG. My chambers would definitely qualify for being in the tight side. When I chamber I set headspace off the shoulder not the rim. On request PTG will build headspace gauges for belted mags that headspace on the shoulder and not the rim. I am a big fan of RCBS case mics or using the Hornady headspace comparator. I hold the shoulder clearance to .001" min and .002" max. Loads are warm enough the the primer pockets are gone in 8 to 10 firings. Never had bulge issues

[a danl]

always set your sizing die on shoulder headspace rather than the belt and there will be no problem

[dsh1106]

I use the old school option. When I need to full length resize, I use the arbor press and my Lyman old school hand sizing die. This sizes right up to the belt on my 338wm, never had an issue clambering anything sized with this.

Scott

[Teddy (punchie)]

Head space is where on the belted cases?

Chambers had too much oil lube or other liquid in them. I've been watching guys at the range. They are cleaning there guns after every other three or five shots. Okay about cleaning but, oil and liquids have no place in a chamber or bore. At the high pressers I can not even think about the damage a few drops or residue would do in a chamber.

I never was taught to break in a barrel cleaning it this much, sight it in. Clean it, shoot a few more clean it. That was it. With test loads and other things be about say 20 round then clean a new rifle very good. Then start working the loads out, fine tuning if you will; that be say 20 or so. Clean it again. Buy now you should be getting the barrel broke in. Groups should be pulling in or getting very close to the load you like. Or on other hand thinking did I get a lemon or a sweet orange that I ordered. Remember they are all way over bore capacities and thats hard on every thing.

Only takes a little oil to make something junk.

I use cooking oil for most of my guns and bullets, no smell like the gun oils. No need for gloves. Everyone just looks at me. I use a little graphite in neck sizing if I need to see where I'm at.

Wipe or spray my cases/bullets with alcohol, to dry them and only oily film them to keep them from turning. Keep my chambers dry. Oil only the bolt and only a drop(s) here or there. Only time I oil is for long term storage.

Have a good one,

Teddy

[lightman]

I've loaded for a few different belted magnums and never thought that I needed more than the standard full length sizing die. But looking back I remember helping a friend get started loading for a 7mm Remington Magnum and having problems with a few cases chambering. This may have been a good place to use one of those.

[pworley1]

I have 2 Ruger #1's and a Remington 700 chambered in belted mag calibers and have never had a problem with a bulge. I usually only neck size and anneal the brass every third use.

[1hole]

Never had an brass related issues with my M-70 Classic 338W, other than case growing. Which is standard for belted mags. Solve that problem with RCBS X-die when full length sizing.

Jamming a fired case into a FL sizer as far as we can make it go is a good idea ONLY if we're making ammo that will be as swapped around as factory stuff. One of the most significant advantages we handloaders have (but often overlook) is that we can custom resize to make ammo that actually fits our own chambers, and that minimises case stretch.

Forget about the belt, just adjust your size die so your cases rightly headspace off the shoulder and they won't "grow" any more than any other bottleneck cartridge. It's simple to do and can be done without tools but something like Hornady's headspace tool mounted on a precision caliper makes it easier.

[Chad5005]

the die works just as it is meant to,resize first then run problem cases thru the willis die,i think the reason I had so many bulged cases was from buying other peoples once fired cases,no problems now one way or the other

[Clark]

Larry was on all the forums promoting his die in 2010 and I bought one. They work. I have more belted case rifles than I could count. This makes hot loaded brass interchangeable between rifles.


10 years go by.
I am getting old and stopped building 300WM and 338WM rifles, as all I seem to do is shoot deer and antelope at long range.

.... now I am running 7mmRM so hot, I never reuse the brass. ... I am no longer a reloader, just a handloader.


As always, I headspace belted magnum rifles at 0.215", not the SAAMI 0.220" minimum, because I have never found any belted magnum brass over 0.215".
My factory rifles are OVER 0.220".............sad.

[lotech]

I've loaded for seven belted magnum cartridges from .264 through .375 and still load for four - 7x61, 7mm Rem., .300 H&H , and .300 Win. If the belt bulge has been there on any cartridges, I guess I've missed it. I can't even tell you for sure which sizing dies I use on all these, but most are the standard Redding. I size just enough to close the bolt with "very slight" resistance, a relative term sort of like the degree of crimp that means something different to everyone, but it has worked well for me.

With the 7x61, for example, after about five firings, resistance in chambering a case increases beyond the "slight" point and I'll full-length resize which bumps the shoulder just enough to permit easy chambering, like with a new case.

It would be interesting to examine and maybe even try one of these Willis dies out of curiosity, but certainly not out of need. Sounds like they work very well for some an are not necessary for others. Just a guess, but perhaps those with problems have an adjustment matter that needs correcting or have out of spec chambers, brass, or dies.

[Gunners Mate]

It's luck. It's not a matter of die brands, rifle brands or case brands, as such. Everything made by man has a range of "in tolerance" dimensions, usually just a few thousanths in each direction, and all brands follow the same SAAMI specifications so it doesn't matter what color die box you buy. Thus, it's pure bad luck if your tools stack tolerances toward the "too tight" side for your snug chamber. And slightly soft cases accelerate the swelling that can lead to chambering difficulties. But, most magnum reloaders will never experience that problem so they don't need a solution.

I don't have a belted case rifle in my safe and never will, but I reload for a few friends who do. When one guy started having trouble chambering his several times reloaded cases I checked his chamber and FL sized case dimensions just ahead of the belt. I found his sticky cases were at max plus 1/2 thou above SAAMI diameter and his chamber was on the small side of SAAMI; a half thou is close but it's a lot of metal-to-metal difference when pushing on a bolt!

That was some 40 years ago, the excellent Willis collet sizer die wasn't available back then. I found a yard sale set of magnum dies and modified the sizer so it would squeeze the cases a tad more above the belt, about 2-3 thou smaller than the original sizer did; that fixed it.

SAAMI max diameter above the belt is .512". I lathe cut off the bottom of the die until the belt relief was gone and the internal diameter was .510". Then I ran a cheep 1/2" carbide concrete drill bit (to cut the case hardened steel) down from the top and stopped it about 1/8" above the bottom of the die, then smoothed and polished the exposed hard cased skin, inside and out. I push the cases into that die to just kiss the top of the belt, it puts the loaded belt bulge down to the middle of the SAAMI case tolerance range and everything works fine.

Wish I'd thought to market it. Never guessed it was a common enough problem to sell my "invention". Oh well, I still have my Social Security check coming in so what's another million $, more or less. ??

Nice description of Tolerance Stacking, most people don't understand machining principles or how 1/2 thou here a thou there adds up down range (1000 thousandths of inch at the muzzle is 3.6 inches at 100 yards) I believe the most accurate rifles are built not bought.