Welterweight 44s

[curioushooter]

I like to think of bullets in weight classes like boxers based on how heavy-for-caliber they are.

For example, in .357 I would think of 158-180 grains as heavyweight, > 180 super heavyweight, 140-158 as welterweight, ~125s lightweight, and <120 as flyweight.

In .429 I think of 240-260 grains as heavyweight, >260 as super heavyweight, 210-240 as welterweight, ~200s as lightweight, and <190 to be flyweights.

There are many great, well proven designs for 44 in the heavyweight category, the 429421 being foremost in my mind, however there does not seem to be any similar great in the welterweight category besides the 429215, which is a gas check design.

I have read of folks turning off the gas check shank on their molds, but most regret this decision, as the small grease groove has been blamed for leading. There's no way to grow back that steel. The clones of the 429215 can be had without gas checks, but they have the small groove. Basically, I'd like a 429215 with a bigger groove, but it seems like a custom affair, and I don't like that because you can be pretty much in the dark as to load data.

Does anybody know of a well proven design in that weight class without a gas check that has load data in abundance? The one that seems most compelling to me is the Lee 429-214-SWC, but those grooves seems even more wimpy to me than those of the 429215. Plus that mold is not available for Lee in six-hole variety. NOE has a 224 grain SWC that seems good to me too, but none available. I simply do not have the vast decades-long experience that some of you guys have, and I wonder if I am missing something.

I am not necessarily married to a SWC, though I do prefer them generally in revolvers.

[onelight]

Have you looked at accurate molds .
Here is one similar to what you describe .
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-199S-D.png

[Outpost75]

A bullet which Tom Ellis at Accurate came up with for me, which several testers have had good success with is 43-206H. This is a semi-wadcutter dimensioned to fit the Colt Single-Action Frontier Six Shooter and the New Service revolvers in .44-40. It has a large meplat, ample lube capacity for SPG if you want to shoot black powder, and it also feeds reliably in the 1873 and 1892 Winchesters. It is a good lighter weight bullet for the .44 Special and .44 Magnum in subsonic, non-magnum revolver loads.

I use 6 grains of Bullseye in the .44-40 for about 900-950 fps in a 5-1/2" revolver, depending upon barrel-cylinder gap. This load shoots close to the fixed sights of my 1905 Colt SA and my 1920 New Service, typical targets shown which aren't to shabby for a 72-year-old shooting those tiny old timey sights.

The same 6 grains of Bullseye is a full-charge, but standard-pressure load in the .44 Special which is highly accurate. I load 7.5 grains of Bullseye with this bullet in the .44 Magnum revolvers and it is a flat-shooting, effective field load which is pleasant to shoot. A boolits forum member in Oz posted his pic of two 5-shot groups fired at 50 metres with 7.5 grains of Unique in his 1873 Winchester, making a sight change made between groups. Larry Gibson is running pressure tests with this bullet in the .44 Special and .44 Magnum. CBA poster Eutectic posted his 12-shot, 20-yard, .44 Special target using 5.4 grains of TiteGroup.

257959257960257961257962257963257965

[megasupermagnum]

I don't look that far into it. I use light, standard, or heavy. In 357 I consider 158-170 gr standard. In 44 I consider 240-270 standard. In your 210-240 range, NOE makes a bunch of molds.

[fredj338]

I have lots of ds thru a bunch of diff 44s. If I wanted a bullet in the 180-200gr wt I would go full WC. It would be used fro low recoil target work anyway, why waste the lead. Accurate can make anything you want within reason.

[Shuz]

MP Molds makes a 225g plain base design that I use designated: MP-433-640L. It is a lighter version of MP's clone of the Lyman Devastator 429640. This design, backed by 8.9g of Green Dot(what else?:drinks:) has given me several 5 shot groups at 25 yards that are 1.7 to 1.8".

[curioushooter]

Outpost: except for that bevel base that is a neat design. I like the stumpy nose which allows for more weight to be on the bearing surfaces...I think this is a key to accuracy in revolvers generally and why wadcutters have the reputation they do.

Full Wadcutters are out for me though. In 38 at least they are not stable past 25-35 yards or so. I'd assume it's the same deal in 44.

The accurate 43-210C seems like will be just right and could probably use the same load data as the 429215. Thanks!

[Gamsek]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200305/4fae8b09818866956a00fefe42b505b3.jpg

I have this 432-423. It’s a SWC and I get 197grs in penta HP, 210 in solid.

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/432-423-hollow-point-plain-base-4-cavity-mold/

[gwpercle]

Check out NOE 432 - 237 - WC - BL4
This design is a winner in 38 spcl/357 mag. (360 - 160 - WC ) so much so that I purchased another in this design for my 41 magnum (413 - 215 - WC)...all are based on the discontinued Lyman design 358432 and are accuracy hounds . The 432-237-WC should be just as accurate in 44 spcl/44 mag.

Lyman never made this mould in 41 cal or 44 cal but they sure should have . Noe was smart enough to bring it back in 38 , 41 and 44 cal's ....just try it , I really like the boolit.
If you have to order one ...it's worth the wait , trust me !
Gary

[oldhenry]

I have good results with the Accurate 43-210A over 5.0 to 5.5 of WST in my Ruger GP100. I've also used 5.0 of red dot with the same boolit, but WST burns cleaner, meters better & has less felt recoil.

[KVO]

I use this mold from Arsenal for "welterweight" 44s:

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=78&limit=100

It appears very similar in design to the Accurate 24-210A posted by oldhenry above. I also have the NOE 432-237 WC based on the Lyman 358432 that drops about 220gr. as a HP. I use the Arsenal mold a little more frequently, but both have been supplanted in my regular use by the MP #503 clone. While not as easy on the lead supply it is not finicky about finding accurate loads.

[curioushooter]

KVO, that Arsenal design I rejected because it doesn't have even a caliber's worth of bearing surface. One of the things I learned in machine work is that for a nice pin fit you want the pin to be a caliber and a third of bearing surface in the hole. Basically every accuracy test I've ever done has confirmed this...longer bearing length=better accuracy (provided the twist rate is adequate). Sometimes you get a stumper than shoots well in one gun but not in another. To me that's because everything is just right in the situation. The bearing lenght is somewhat of a backup to compensate for trouble elsewhere.

Gamsek, I cannot find the 432-423 on MPs website. Also, I would have rejected that bullet you pictured. I hope it is not indicative of that mold's performance.

[Gamsek]

Sorry for ugly bullets, was the only photo of 44-180 and 432-423 together I had in this phone. I dug few from my old phone, they are from 2018. Link from previous post should work.

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/432-423-hollow-point-plain-base-4-cavity-mold/

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200309/a0c4e08019b94b23c017026ab2428b0a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200309/0af345dbabbed10c2769357b533a54a6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200309/fbd26fef845ed7596fd10fb1fe9bacfc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200309/50ee4818547ffe49ef7cda1ec7812b44.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200309/f6af8aac65342671a7e3fbe083f5c399.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200309/2c07fbaf3814469a2efc927f601fcb4a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200309/609efec2b46bdd1818fd191b158b9a31.jpg

Hope those will be [emoji1303]

[Shuz]

I have the MP-432-423 mould in a 2C, and wish I had a 4C! This design shoots very well outta my 5" 629-3 Classic DX with a 4x Leupold EER scope. Last Friday I shot groups that measured between 1.3 and 2.2" @ 25 yards. Velocity was 1223fps with SD of 17.
Load was 9.3g of Green Dot. This boolit is also a real pleasure to shoot in light weight guns such as the 329PD and mdl 69.

[megasupermagnum]

KVO, that Arsenal design I rejected because it doesn't have even a caliber's worth of bearing surface. One of the things I learned in machine work is that for a nice pin fit you want the pin to be a caliber and a third of bearing surface in the hole. Basically every accuracy test I've ever done has confirmed this...longer bearing length=better accuracy (provided the twist rate is adequate). Sometimes you get a stumper than shoots well in one gun but not in another. To me that's because everything is just right in the situation. The bearing lenght is somewhat of a backup to compensate for trouble elsewhere.

Gamsek, I cannot find the 432-423 on MPs website. Also, I would have rejected that bullet you pictured. I hope it is not indicative of that mold's performance.

Unfortunately to get a calibers worth, .429" of bearing surface, is not possible. Using the cast bullet design software, I was able to get that with a 250 grain full wadcutter. To get any semblance of a bullet, I had to go to 300 grain. You might be able to get a 240 grain full wadcutter with no lube grooves, just a straight cylinder.

Some of the most accurate handgun bullets in the world don't have anywhere near that much bearing surface. The H&G #68 has a bearing surface of about .215". Less than half a caliber's length.

[curioushooter]

The 429-421 has .470 of bearing surface of and is a SWC with a long, radius Keith type nose. A SWC with a short truncated cone nose (like the end of a crayon) would weigh a lot less and I'd figure getting .429 of bearing surface would be quite do-able with a bullet ~220 grains. I don't know what software you are using but I took that measurment FROM an actual 429421 casting. At 255 grains with a big heavy long nose it has more than a caliber's worth of bearing surface.

Never shot a H&G #68, or even heard of it, but I've shot a lot of little stumpy .358s and they are not as accurate in any of my firearms as a 148 WC or anything 158 grains or heavier. Same deal in rifles. I've never found any <130 grain bullet to shoot worth a darn in 30-30, for example. In my 32-20 contender, >130 grain bullets always shoot best, the 311-440 being a real winner.

[curioushooter]

Gamsek did you ever measure the depth of penetration? What is the medium you are using? Thanks for the link as when I search for that bullet I didn't find it! Wish he made a solid version. The H&G 503 clone when HPed brings it down into the "welterweight range" and I was thinking of that one as well. MPs work is fabulous!

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, you are talking about the bullet length, not the actual bearing surface. The in case bullet length plus the front band. I am using the TMT cast bullet software. I have the H&G #503, and even with the deep hollow point it still comes in at 252 grains.

[Gamsek]

Gamsek did you ever measure the depth of penetration? What is the medium you are using? Thanks for the link as when I search for that bullet I didn't find it! Wish he made a solid version. The H&G 503 clone when HPed brings it down into the "welterweight range" and I was thinking of that one as well. MPs work is fabulous!

I did measure (data lost) but I was then more interested in threshold of 20:1 alloy with penta pins. I tried with 8,9,10 and 11grs of fast burning powder “Chedite Granular S Fino”, 1 through chrono, 3 into wet pack, repeat 4 times. Will dug that velocity data for you and some photo of wet pack from 2018. Not scientific but got me some clue. I never played much with 432-423 because I started casting with solid #503 and 432-640 Devastator, then I added 4cav 432-423, 2cav 432-395 HBWC and last year 4cav 44-180 SWC. I use first two the most.
You can cast solids with that 432-423 HP too, but you will see very gentle circle on the FP. Maybe he made few solids too?

I will dug some data and attach them. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200310/3cc90b4c49a8c707a2a8b7796eac3687.jpg here you can see little circles - was casting with FP with engraved pins in that exact mould.

[megasupermagnum]

What would be awesome is if the engraved pin bullets left that mark on a steel plate.

[44Blam]

I like this shape:
It is the Accurate 43-240 AG:
258415

My mold has two cavities that are 43-240 A and two cavities that ar 43-240 AG.

[curioushooter]

Ok, you are talking about the bullet length, not the actual bearing surface.

No, I am not. I am talking about bearing surface...the portion of the bullet that bears against the barrel.

Wadcutters have the maximum possible bearing surface per unit of mass. Long sleek ogives and boat tails reduce the amount per unit of mass.

[megasupermagnum]

No, I am not. I am talking about bearing surface...the portion of the bullet that bears against the barrel.

Wadcutters have the maximum possible bearing surface per unit of mass. Long sleek ogives and boat tails reduce the amount per unit of mass.

Right, and a lube groove and crimp groove doesn't count as bearing surface. If you truly are talking about bearing surface, then my first post is valid. An H&G #503 has about .300" of bearing surface. Three .100" wide driving bands.

I am almost positive what you mean is the length from the base to the end of the front driving band. The overall bullet length minus the unsupported part of the nose.

[curioushooter]

The gooves count. I guess what really matters is supported surface, sorry for being somewhat confusing. Anything between the driving band and the end of the base is supported weight, provided there is at least half that surface at full diameter. At least that is how I think of it. I certainly don't suntract grooves. But yes, the ogive is unsupported, non-bearing surface, at least at these velocities. Some 30-30 bullets I've recocvered from gel have shown that the ogive can slump and become bearing surface.

[Gamsek]

I did measure (data lost) but I was then more interested in threshold of 20:1 alloy with penta pins. I tried with 8,9,10 and 11grs of fast burning powder “Chedite Granular S Fino”, 1 through chrono, 3 into wet pack, repeat 4 times. Will dug that velocity data for you and some photo of wet pack from 2018. Not scientific but got me some clue. I never played much with 432-423 because I started casting with solid #503 and 432-640 Devastator, then I added 4cav 432-423, 2cav 432-395 HBWC and last year 4cav 44-180 SWC. I use first two the most.
You can cast solids with that 432-423 HP too, but you will see very gentle circle on the FP. Maybe he made few solids too?

I will dug some data and attach them. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200310/3cc90b4c49a8c707a2a8b7796eac3687.jpg here you can see little circles - was casting with FP with engraved pins in that exact mould.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200312/95ddbd1d4a45c7d0cbdc7c3b91cf03e8.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200312/e1e378d0840b6b9219a4a0932936c3d6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200312/2ffed685ffb42225eda5693860350c17.jpg

It was one over chronograph, 4into wet pack.
4 times. 432-423 197grs penta HP, 5m, 5” S&W. Photo of wet pack made from short video where you can see impacts.