Breech Strength

[Good Cheer]

Does anyone have the data to compare the breech strength of TC New Englanders versus Pedersoli Whitworths and Volunteers?

[Woodnbow]

There is no data that I know of. The breach on the t/c is 1/16” larger in diameter than the whitworth.

[missionary5155]

There really is only one way to find out... And each specimen would vary some. But after you pipe bomb test 10 or more of each you should have a descent idea.

[Good Cheer]

Heh, I certainly don't want to do that testing:)
But it could be fun!

[Woodnbow]

If y’all have a lot of money it would be fun. That’s more fun than I could stand.

[Good Cheer]

Being left eyed my left handed New Englanders are worth too much to me to blow them up!
If .476/.480 molds were more prevalent I'd maybe go that route.
But then again the barrel* as-is could just be rebored a few thousandths to use lubed lead fifty rifle molds.
The TC parts give you plenty of options to consider.


* There's one spare barrel that's a corroded fifty.

[GregLaROCHE]

Does anyone have the data to compare the breech strength of TC New Englanders versus Pedersoli Whitworths and Volunteers?

Why do you want to know this information ? Are you planning to push the envelope with powder charges ?

[Good Cheer]

Well, thinking about that, where's the envelope?
Is loading a .458 barreled New Englander like a Whitworth pushing the envelope?

[john.k]

It would be impossible to blow either up with blackpowder ,and the flash hole would allow pressure to bleed away......The only way to rupture would be a hydraulic shock method ,which is what happens when a fast moving mass hits a stationary one....and by definition ,that wont happen at the breech...........read up some of the Spanish tests of rolling blocks .......250 grs of powder ,barrel full of bullets.....didnt blow up.

[Edward]

It would be impossible to blow either up with blackpowder ,and the flash hole would allow pressure to bleed away......The only way to rupture would be a hydraulic shock method ,which is what happens when a fast moving mass hits a stationary one....and by definition ,that wont happen at the breech...........read up some of the Spanish tests of rolling blocks .......250 grs of powder ,barrel full of bullets.....didnt blow up.

A sure way to get multiple hits @ multiple targets @ multiple yardage before you can even get back up on your feet :veryconfu

[mooman76]

A couple guys on youtube took an old CVA and filled it completely with BP leaving just enough room to load a bullet. It did not blow the barrel. The stock was damaged but I think that was done more by the device holding the gun that the action from the BP firing.

[KCSO]

Depended on how accurately they are breeched in the first place, Thread fit does it sel at the front and the rear tightly, How thick is the barrel how long ate the threaded portion. You need to go back to Ed Yard and the Buckskin report in the 70's where this was covered in great length. A lot of T/C guns I have worked on were gapped at the front of the barrel breech joint and this is not only a crap trap but it does weaken the joint.

[indian joe]

It would be impossible to blow either up with blackpowder ,and the flash hole would allow pressure to bleed away......The only way to rupture would be a hydraulic shock method ,which is what happens when a fast moving mass hits a stationary one....and by definition ,that wont happen at the breech...........read up some of the Spanish tests of rolling blocks .......250 grs of powder ,barrel full of bullets.....didnt blow up.

Mate ------- nothing is impossible to the willing student (read that in an ad somewhere years ago)

Take that TC New Englander Barrel, fill it halfway up with FFF tightly packed , now fill the rest of the barrel with tightly rammed dirt - just like you setting a strainer post - you wanna be at least fifty yards away behind a bunker when you pull the string to set her off because something is gonna blow - either blow the nipple drum out - or the breech plug - or shred the barrel.

[fgd135]

At least the PH rifles were all proofed by the government proof house before being sold. I cannot remember the proof load but it was very substantial.

[longbow]

Never say never but...you might want to read chapter 22 of The Complete Black Powder Handbook by Sam Fadala.

He had a test barrel made up in .58 cal. at only 1" across the flats and worked up to 500grs. of FFFg BP and three 600 gr. Minies with no change in barrel dimensions.

To get that barrel to blow up he then tried 400 gs. of powder with two 600 gr. Minies seat 14 1/2" away from the powder! That did it as did some other tests with large air gaps between powder and projectile in some other guns.

Of course barrels differ in steel grade and quality, number and depth of dovetails, breach plug style and threads, etc. so results could obviously vary some but my take is that any quality barrel can take a larger charge than I would want to shoot in it anyway.

As an example, I once accidentally charged an H&R Huntsman in .58 cal. with about 250 grs. of FFFg BP under a 500 gr. Minie. The muzzle blast was horrendous as was recoil and the action broke open... just, but no damage to gun or barrel.

Food for thought.

Longbow

[Woodnbow]

Well, thinking about that, where's the envelope?
Is loading a .458 barreled New Englander like a Whitworth pushing the envelope?
You’re probably thinking of having the barrel relined with a .45 liner. Or else buying a .45-70 barrel and threading it for the plug. In either case, I would feel comfortable with 500 grain bullets and 100 grains of Swiss... easily.

[indian joe]

You’re probably thinking of having the barrel relined with a .45 liner. Or else buying a .45-70 barrel and threading it for the plug. In either case, I would feel comfortable with 500 grain bullets and 100 grains of Swiss... easily.

Shootin that load in an 8 pound gun might not be fun long term for some of us! I had a little sharps carbine that used to jar my spine (shot prone) with a 500grainer over 65 grains FFFg .....that thing would have bit seriously with a 100of Swiss in it .................

[charlie b]

Several of 'us' in here use heavy bullet loads in various rifles.

Mine is a Lyman Great Plains Hunter, .50cal, 1:32 twist. It likes 450gn PP bullets with 80-100gn powder.

The main factor on bullet weight/type is the twist of the rifling. If you have 1:48 twist then the long, heavy bullet will keyhole. Even my 1:32 twist is marginal for some of the longer 450gn bullets.

[indian joe]

Several of 'us' in here use heavy bullet loads in various rifles.

Mine is a Lyman Great Plains Hunter, .50cal, 1:32 twist. It likes 450gn PP bullets with 80-100gn powder.

The main factor on bullet weight/type is the twist of the rifling. If you have 1:48 twist then the long, heavy bullet will keyhole. Even my 1:32 twist is marginal for some of the longer 450gn bullets.

Charlie if it dont hurt its fun (of course) ................. but a 45/100 with a big boolit has some potential to hurt in a light gun ....I have a good chiropractor but I dont wanna become friends with him .

[Woodnbow]

Keeping powder charges around 70-90 grains with bullets under 400 grains should still be an enjoyable experience...

[Earlwb]

There have been some past trials where they filled up a 12 inch barrel section with black powder screwed in a second breech plug and lit a fuse on the flash hole. The barrel sections didn't blow up.
Iraqi Veteran (yutube) did try to blow up a few CVA muzzle loaders using smokeless powder but it didn't blow the guns up like you would think it would do. They basically used a smokeless powder load like a black powder load, simulating a user trying to use a black powder load by mistake or stupidity. They had to really overload the heck out of them to blow them up.

[indian joe]

Keeping powder charges around 70-90 grains with bullets under 400 grains should still be an enjoyable experience...

My muzzle loaders are slow twist ball guns - open sights - they will do the job as far out as I can ethically hit - my 54cal weighs 7 pound neat - 120 grains of FFg - its fun and pretty darn effective!

[charlie b]

Charlie if it dont hurt its fun (of course) ................. but a 45/100 with a big boolit has some potential to hurt in a light gun ....I have a good chiropractor but I dont wanna become friends with him .

Yes, it does. My Lyman is 9lb. And it has a wicked curved butt plate that will cut the skin. I use a PAST recoil pad when firing it (or a thick jacket).

Even with all that it has taught me how to flinch :) Took a while to get used to firing it.

[charlie b]

Keeping powder charges around 70-90 grains with bullets under 400 grains should still be an enjoyable experience...

Enjoyable, but, after 20 or 30 rounds I can feel it the next day, even with the recoil pad.