Are over the powder wads necessary?

[patio]

Loading for a 45-70 trapdoor Springfield. Use a compression die to seat the blackpowder to the correct depth so the bullet doesn't have to. Is it necessary to use an over powder fiber wad?

Thank you,

Pat

[rfd]

i wouldn't bp load without a wad because it will protect the base of the bullet, somewhat seal the bore, mitigate some of the bp residue, and deter leading. drop fill yer powder into the case, push in a wad (LDPE, milk carton, tablet, felt, veggie, whatever) and then compress. after the wad i always added 1 or 2 newsprint wads to insure the main wad won't travel down the target on the bullet's base. there's lots to experiment with bp loading for greasers or paper patched bullets.

[Edward]

100% what Rob said !/Ed

[indian joe]

my 45/70 and 45/75 both shoot much better with overpowder wads (also my 38/55)
Doesnt seem to make a difference with the 44/40
I use HDPE poly that I cut from 10 litre water containers in the 45's and juice box in the 38/55
Have not been able to find LDPE poly except at a ferocious price to import. Someone told me tupperware ?

[patio]

Where can I get a punch to cut wads?

[rfd]

buffalo arms sells both hammer and press wad punches. while the hammer punch is both cheap and effective, the much more expensive fred cornell press wad punch is top shelf for making hundreds of wads from newsprint to thick felt and everything in between fast and effortlessly, and i've been using .45 and .40 versions for decades.

[Love Life]

I just buy wads and cards.

[DHDeal]

I have to agree with what has already been stated above. I have always used a compression die, if for no other reason than making sure my powder column was the same height, and I want something between the die plug and the powder. I have just shot loads with only wax paper between the powder and the bullet as a test, and they shot surprisingly well. As a rule, I use a wad (gasket material or ldpe) and a wax paper disc on top of the wad. In my mind, loading accurate BP loads is a recipe and I stay with the same ingredients.

[Larry Gibson]

Alternate opinion;

I conducted extensive accuracy testing of over powder cards/wads at 200 and 300 yards with my 45-70 target trapdoor (1884 barrel and receiver) using BP loads under the Rapine 460500 and Lyman's 457125 cast of 20-1 and 16-1 alloys. I also use a compression die so the bullet is not compressing the powder but loaded on top of the powder or card/wad. Card/wads were of vegetable and paper (milk carton) using bought and home made from .002 through .006" thickness.

I found not difference in accuracy (2 foulers then 10 shot groups) at 200 or 300 yards between loads with card/wads over the powder and when none was used. Hence, I do not bother with a card/wad over the powder.

I suggest testing some in your TD as that's the only way to know for sure with your rifle. I suggest testing Water's vegetable wads of .003 and .006" thickness. That will tell you if they're necessary or not in your loads for your rifle.

[Dapaki]

I "punch" wads and disks using a 45ACP brass chucked in my drill press and file the edge a bit. Run as fast as it will go and cut a half dozen disks or 1 wad and push them out of the case via a drilled out primer hole. When i want to do a lot of disks (hardly ever use wads) I chuck up a 45-70 case that I have turned the base down on to fit the drill press and get 50 disks cut before pressing them all out of the case via a drilled out primer hole and a brass rod.

I really don't think I'll be cutting any more though, PC boolits have made my hollow base 405gr boolits perform better than anything else I have ever tried. I'm getting clear from SMOKE so i can keep the aesthetics.

[sharps4590]

I'm sold on over powder card wads in rifle cartridges.

[Lead pot]

The far left bullet was shot without a base wad.
If you don't use a bullet to hard they will shoot ok. Those bullets are .44 caliber shot using the .44-90BN with 105 gr of 1.5 goex express powder.
The only problem you might run into not using a wad is gas cuts if the alloy is to hard this one did not have that problem.
257820257821

[Carrier]

I have no where near the experience that most here have with blackpowder but I’m with Larry Gibson as that is what I found with my Trapdoor. With the Lee HB 405 it made a huge difference as the wad was sticking in the hollow base. With flat base I found no difference at all that I could tell.

[country gent]

I use a .060 napa rubber fiber wad and 2 tracing paper wads in most my flat base loads. These range from 38-55 to 45-90. I have found improvements here in accuracy and also fouling control.

The heavy wad is to protect the base of the bullet and aid in the powder compression. It seems to also act as a scraper for the previous shots fouling some. The
2 tracing paper wads insure the heavy wad dosnt stick to the base of the bullet.

With a hollow based bullet the wad is likely to become fixed to the base causing problems.

[rfd]

I have no where near the experience that most here have with blackpowder but I’m with Larry Gibson as that is what I found with my Trapdoor. With the Lee HB 405 it made a huge difference as the wad was sticking in the hollow base. With flat base I found no difference at all that I could tell.

wads are never used with hollow based bullets - defeats the skirt of the base design, as you found out.

however, a wad or wads are Mandatory with flat based bullets for sundry reasons already posted.

[jason60chev]

Have any of y'all ever pulled bullets from original cartridges, to see how and with what they were loaded with?

I shoot mostly BP revolver cartridges and I wonder, because wads were not used when the revolvers were percussion
and I have pulled bullets from BP ctgs and have found no wad.



wads are never used with hollow based bullets - defeats the skirt of the base design, as you found out.

however, a wad or wads are Mandatory with flat based bullets for sundry reasons already posted.

[indian joe]

Have any of y'all ever pulled bullets from original cartridges, to see how and with what they were loaded with?

I shoot mostly BP revolver cartridges and I wonder, because wads were not used when the revolvers were percussion
and I have pulled bullets from BP ctgs and have found no wad.

I think it (overpowder wad) only matters when we are trying to squeeze the last little bit out of a blackpowder load (either accuracy OR velocity)

also think a solid well fitted wad helps some with fouling

in the end let the target talk - and that means off a bench or sticks with good sights

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I just loaded my first four 45-70 BP loads. I weighed out 50 grains of swiss 2f, dumped it into the case and rapped it a few times to settle the powder. Then I used a good tuft of dryer lint as a wad and seated the boolit (405 Lee hb). I guess my rifle will let me know if I need to modify my process. Using this boolit with the simple lube recipie over 27 of imr 4198 has left the bore clean after a dozen rounds or so so it seems the sizing and lubing are working, at least with smokeless. I forgot to buy wads when I was at the BP store the other day. Rifle is a Henry single shot, 22" bbl.

[toot]

i only use them in my wheel guns. so no chain fires.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Loaded four more without a wad under the Lee 405 hb. 62 grains or 4 cc of Swiss 2F gave me a slight compression. So we shall see.....

[Castaway]

What rfd said about newspaper between a wad and bullet if you decide to go with a wad. At the range one day with my cap and ball. I had a wad stick to the ball and hit the target frame. The wad was stuck to the frame with the ball directly underneath.

[Walks]

i only use them in my wheel guns. so no chain fires.

I've never seen a chain fire with a C&B revolver.
Back in the 1950's-60's Dad had a Original Colt Navy. He used 20?grs of 3F? Under a .380 ball. He'd add grease over all chambers for the first cylinder, then over the first chamber only until the Revolver tied up from fouling.

However I loaded a felt wad in .44-40 BP loads when Shooting SASS back in the late 1980's.
I used the same type of felt wads in .45-70 BP loads too. Tried them in C&B 1860 replicas, simply because they were less messy reloading during a match.
Never saw a chain fire in over 20yrs of SASS Participation.

[Char-Gar]

You don't want a wad on top of the powder is there is air space between the wad and the base of the bullet. The military rifle load was a 500 grain bullet over 70 grains of BP. The carbine load was a 405 grain bullet over 55 grains of BP. The air space in the carbine load was taken up with two "jute" wad (fiber).

[indian joe]

What rfd said about newspaper between a wad and bullet if you decide to go with a wad. At the range one day with my cap and ball. I had a wad stick to the ball and hit the target frame. The wad was stuck to the frame with the ball directly underneath.

I have a flannelette pad on the loading bench with a damp spot of wd40 on it, every boolit gets its backside wiped on the damp patch then dried (only takes a second or two) before loading over a HDPE (or juice box for smaller calibre) wad - I find it less fiddly and just as effective as the newsprint.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Well I guess with a plain base boolit if you are going to load less than the max then you need some wadding to take up the air space.

[indian joe]

What rfd said about newspaper between a wad and bullet if you decide to go with a wad. At the range one day with my cap and ball. I had a wad stick to the ball and hit the target frame. The wad was stuck to the frame with the ball directly underneath.

We actually set fire to the target like that - tried a thick grease cookie under the ball - made tracer rounds for an 1860 army!!!

[Castaway]

IJ, I’ve done it twice. I try to remember to splash a little water on the backing paper and target before shooting. I tend to saturated my wads with Gato Feo #1. Since I started using GF1, I’ve never had a cylinder bind from fouling

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Okay then, got out in the balmy 12 deg. weather and tried my first 45-70 BP loads. LEE 405 HB over 50 gr. Swiss 2F, tuft of drier lint for a bit of tamping. 4 rds. off the roof of the car at 50 yds. Did not mess with the crono due to the cold. The cluster at the top, the lower ones are .357 out of my 786. Deprimed cases are soaking in citric acid, little dawn and hot water.

293497

[elk hunter]

i only use them in my wheel guns. so no chain fires.

I've owned and shot several percussion revolvers over the years and until a couple months ago I'd never had a chain fire. In that one, and so far only, case it was with a 1851 Navy made in 1867 that a second chamber went off. Fortunately it was the top left chamber so the ball cleared the frame and did no damage. I'm sure it was flash around the ball that caused the problem even though I greased each chamber like I've done for over fifty years with no problems. I'm going to invest in some sort of wads to use in my revolvers as I certainly don't want to damage one of them.