358 Winchester Long Range Rifle

[Humpy]

Got a wild hair to build a long range cast bullet rifle. Been checking out the 40 and 45 cal jobs shooting at a 1000 yards with very decent results so thought I would try it with a 358 Winchester, 28" barrel, 16 twist. Already have the reamer and will order the barrel tomorrow.

Just wondering if anyone else has been down this road before?

[Ben]

I don't want to throw water on your party..........BUT....The phrase " 358 Win. Long Range Rifle " , seems to me a lot like saying, I'm about to buy a big, small, hat.

The 358 Win. and " long range rifle " in my mind just don't go together , especially with cast bullets.

I own a 358 Win. and love to shoot cast bullets in it ( and have GREAT respect for the caliber as a white-tailed deer cartridge ) , but of my 30 + center-fire rifles, it would be near dead last as a long range 1,000 yard rifle .

Accuracy with cast bullets in the 358 Win. begins to really get strained at 1950 - 2050 fps. My best accuracy with a wide variety of cast bullets in the 358 Win. runs in the 1650 - 1750 fps range.

Someone else may have experienced different results with their 358 Win ? ? ?

Ben

[longbow]

While I don't qualify as a long range shooter nor do I have a .358 Win. I will make the observation that black powder cartridge is commonly used for 1000 yard shooting.

If a .40 to .50 cal. black powder cartridge pushing a cast boolit of moderate ballistic coefficient to a little over 1200 FPS can shoot to 1000 yards, a .358 at 1600 + FPS should be able to do it.

There are lots of cartridges that may shoot flatter and faster but if you like the cartridge and don't mind a fairly steep trajectory it should do the job.

Longbow

[Bullshop]

Come on now longbow a fella can do some perty good work out to 500 yards with nothing more than a 22 lr. Thats a 40gn bullet at 1300fps, and they do right good shootin if it aint too windy. I know for sure cuz I had a C. Sharps in 22lr just like my big gun for cheap practice. With good sights and a few shots to get the range you can make a 5 gallon bucked not hold much water any more from 500 long steps away.
Now I would think that a 358 with a 200+gn boolit pushin 2000fps should outperform a 22lr smartly. I think the problem is that your thinking is stuck in deer huntin mode.
Imagine a sleak single shot with a long heavy barrel with a globe front sight with spirit level and a tall staff rear tang mounted sight made to extreamly high precision.
Maybe now you get the picture.
OK then lets try another way. A precision bolt action single shot set in a bench rest stock with a heavy fluted barrel. The receiver mounted with a Leaupold MK4 long range target scope with long range bases. Can ya see it now huh can ya?
Man I can and a got myself all ta droolin all over the keyboard here. Dang it all I mighta started sumthin I cant stop now.
BIC/BS

[lead Foot]

I have a .358 Win on a Omark single shot target rifle.Ben's right the sweet spot is around 1700fps. I have had a five shot group just under 2'' at 200yds. that's the best I can do. You have to use the grim death hold as it twist's a lot on firing.
lead Foot.

[Ben]

The wide diversity of opinions is one of the many factors that helps make this excellent forum what it is. One person is content with 100 yard shooting with the 358 Win. with cast bullets, another person sees a meaningful challenge with the same cartridge firing cast bullets at 1,000 yards. There is room for all of us here. Diversity of opinions keeps us open minded..........

Ben

[PatMarlin]

I say give it a try and let her rip.

If a 30 cal will do it, and a 45 cal will do it, then the holy 35 should do it with the right rig.

I love my 358 Winchester.

[waksupi]

I've shot out to 500 yards or thereabouts, with one of my .358's. It seemed to work quite well, and I can see no reason it wouldn't shoot well at 1000 yards. I used the Bator heavy boolit for that shooting, and was at around 2100 fps.

[Bret4207]

I would think it'll be a matter of finding the right boolit and load. You may not end up with THE long range trophy winner, but I doubt you'll be completely disgusted in the end.

[Larry Gibson]

Two problems, neither of which is a show stopper.

First; The BP boys shooting those .40 and .45s to 1000 yards start them out at or below the speed of sound. If they are transonic they drop down early in the trajectory when velocity and RPM are sufficient to maintain stability. It is a known fact with HP shooters shooting at 1000 yards that you do not want the bullet dropping sub sonic prior to target engagement. The bullet loses accuracy most often when it make the trasition from sonic to subsonic at long range. Thus, unless you plan on muzzle velocities of 1100 fps or so, there aren't any really good cast bullets in .35 cal with sufficient BCs to stay sonic at 1000 yards. It is going to take a bullet with an actual BC of .470+/- with a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps. This will require a custom mould and a pretty heavy bullet.

Second; Since a .35 cal bullet is going to be on the "heavy side" to have such a BC the .358W doesn't have the case capacity to push that heavy a bullet to 2600 fps. In your long 28" barrel a 35 Whelen probably could.

However, the .358W with the right bullet should do quite nicely at 500 yards or so which can be fun too!

Larry Gibson

[longbow]

You'll get no argument from me Bullshop.

Like I said if he likes the cartridge go for it. I think you were reading one post up.

Longbow

[Bullshop]

Oh my dont I feel silly now. Yup you are right longbow it werent you I was aiming at.
Just another casualty of war, colateral damage.
Please excuse me, and for sure an I AM SORRY is in order. Sorry friend!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[longbow]

Not a problem Bullshop. No harm done. Besides which Humpy is looking for opinions and experience and you gave him a good write up.

Longbow

[Trailblazer]

Standard twist for a 358 Win is 12". Humpy wants to use a 16" twist. The 16" twist may allow accuracy at higher velocities than the 12" twist. The slower twist will also reduce gun twisting. I don't see why a heavy barreled 358 Win target rifle wouldn't be as accurate as any other.

[testhop]

the 358 was developed as a 150 yard woods rifle so making it a long range shooter is impossable imho first you will be shooting bullets or boolits with a lousy ballistic coefficient there no target bullets in 35 cal the 358 case doesnt have enought space for a powder charge to push a slug fast enought and this is only a few things to over come

[Bullshop]

testhop my friend you seem to have a very sheltered view on things. Think outside the box man! We have custom mold makers that will make anything you want, custom barrel makers to do the same. Anyone not paying attention to the BPCR developments should look in on what a fuss the 35 Manard has made. It does not take high velocity or flat tragectory to shoot long range. What is needed is an open mind with enough willingness to explore the posabilities. One safe bet in this game of casting and shooting is to never say never and never say always. Someone will proove you wrong!
BIC/BS

[waksupi]

The .358 most certainly wasn't built as a 150 yard woods gun. That was some of the ho-hum hype put out by early writers, who had never really put it through it's paces. With the Bator heavy, at 2080, I have a point blank range of 225 yards. With a lighter bullet, I'm sure I could flatten that out a bit. You may want to reference Paco Kelly's article on the web.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

[GabbyM]

I believe a 1-14” twist would be better than 1-16”.
According to the software when I was drawing up some 35 caliber bullets. 235 grains is about all the 16 twist rated for. O.A.L. Of about .957”. I have a 240 grain on order with 57% meplat .600” nose O.A.L. .984”. Software says 1 in 15” twist suggested.

[runfiverun]

great i just went and bought a 358 win.
my plan is to run it up to bout 2200 and use it for 300 yd pin shooting.
just haven't decided on the 250 gr rcbs or 200 saeco yet.

[JSH]

There are a lot of good points made here on this subject. But to say the 358 won't make it to 1K.......... Granted it may take a bit more work than some calibers, but it is very doable.
Saying it is a short range caliber is the same myth that the 30-30 in a TC won't shoot worth a hoot. As to pistols, they can't shoot much past 30-40 yards.......................
The BPCR boys aren't shooting sub sonic either the last I checked?
If they are, you sure aren't going to get me setting targets in the butts.


358, go for it. I don't have one but would sure like one to fool with. A good friend of mine barreled a Savage up in 35 Whelan. I have to be honest I always thought it to be a turd. I have a lot of respect for one now.
I have a 35 rem that is a favorite of mine to play with. IMHO the 35's are very forgiving and seem to be easy to work with and get exceptional results with a varieyt of bullet weights and designs.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

the only real issue here (IMHO) is the restrictions that quick twist barrel will dictate as far as bullet mould selection. I would go for a 1:12" twist barrel, like I have for my 38-90wcf Quigley Rifle. I shoot a 380gr spitzer from a mould Steve Brooks made me 2 years ago.

If you are stuck on a 358, why not consider a 35-284? Whelen capacity in a 2" case.

Rich

[Nobade]

Funny, I have been thinking along the same lines but have been pondering using the 375 H&H. I have a nice long 300gr. bore riding mold from NEI that ends up just over 300 grains, and a Remington 700 magnum action sitting here waiting to be built into something interesting. A stock similar to Dave Tooley's, a proper barrel, and a scope base with a whole bunch of slope to it would make up into a very fun shootin' iron. Cast bullet F class anyone?

[PatMarlin]

the only real issue here (IMHO) is the restrictions that quick twist barrel will dictate as far as bullet mould selection. I would go for a 1:12" twist barrel, like I have for my 38-90wcf Quigley Rifle. I shoot a 380gr spitzer from a mould Steve Brooks made me 2 years ago.

If you are stuck on a 358, why not consider a 35-284? Whelen capacity in a 2" case.

Rich

I think he wants to be a pioneer with the 358 Winchester Rich. I hope he does it.

GO Humpy!! ...:Fire: :drinks:

[Marlin Junky]

Humpy,

When you find a barrel you're happy with, let me know, 'cause I want a couple of them. Seems to me you need a 7 or 8 groove 14" twist barrel with .0045" to .0050" deep grooves. Molds to get you started: RCBS 35-250 and SAECO 352; unfortunately, they'll probably drop .359" (max.) bullets (instead of the preferable .360") so your groove diameter shouldn't be over .3575".

Good luck on your venture...

MJ

[w30wcf]

My Teddy Roosevelt Commmorative .30-30 does just fine at 1,000 yards using the 311284 bullet:-D, so the .358 Winchester should as well using a round nosed bullet.

Larry,
Round nosed bullets do not undergo the same changes that a spitzer bullet does in going from transonic to subsonic, and thus will continue to fly true.

w30wcf

[hemiallen]

I believe a 1-14” twist would be better than 1-16”.
According to the software when I was drawing up some 35 caliber bullets. 235 grains is about all the 16 twist rated for. O.A.L. Of about .957”. I have a 240 grain on order with 57% meplat .600” nose O.A.L. .984”. Software says 1 in 15” twist suggested.

Does the software allow for lead vs jacketed, or does it work out to be the same? I just checked and according to Browning my BLR is a 1-12 twist barrel. I assume the software must be for lead as I have heard the brownings shoot 250 jacketed bullets well.

Curious if my 1-12 will shoot rcbs 180 and 200's ok.

Thank you
Allen

[Humpy]

OK, I finally decided on a 16 twist 6 groove Pacnor and ordered it in No 2 Palma contour and I put it on last week. Screwed it into a Sears Mod 53 (Win 70) after lapping lugs and squaring receiver. It was already pillar bedded in stock so all I had to do was open barrel channel and rebed a pad under the barrel with Marinetex. I expanded 50 308 fired cases and lost five due to neck failures in the expander die. I tumbled cleaned them in stainless steel media and then stress relieved them with a mandrell in a electric drill.
I made a custom expander mandrell and I have now fired it about 115 rounds. First five were 170 gr. Sierra for break in. Defouled it and went to cast.

I ahve fired these two times now and mouth does not appear to open at all. Same bullet grip on second loading. They are just loud enough to require EARS. About like a 22 magnum rifle I would say but not as bad as a 22 pistol.

Started off with Red Dot and 10 gr. and started working down. Got down to 4 grains and it still punched 2 2X4s and 3/4" OSB sheet at 10 yards and kept going with 357446 bullets. This gave about 5" at 50 yards.

I started at 10 yards to check yaw and there was none. The 160 and 222 both gave nice round holes at 10 yards.

Next I tried 700X which got me to 4" at 50 yards.

Finally I got to 2400 and things started happening.

I have a Lyman 222 gr. mold for the 357 Maxium (can't remember the number) but looks like 357446 Keith but about 3/8" longer and has a big grease groove on lower section.

Fired 50 rounds first day and cleaned with grease and barrel came clean in only three patches. Some of my rounds were sonic but most were subsonic and I haven't found the first trace of lead.

Barrel finish is superb on this tube. I borescoped it and it looks like glass from end to the other.

I started out with the 222 gr. bullet and 10.5 grains. Dropped to 9.6 and group opened. Upped it to 11.7 gr. and it started hammering. 7/8" group at 50 yards. Next time out I will go in with 12 gr. I used Remington Magnum primers that must be 25 years old and I still had unburned in barrel.

Second session I ran 60 rounds and three patches with grease cleaned it right up with no leading. Barrel still looks like glass.

I got in touch with a long range shooter up in Wisconsin and he tells me the 40 cal boys are doing fine at 800/900 and 1000 yards so I figure a 35 might just do it. I am not new to long range. I started shooting HP at Perry in 73. The slow movers and shooting scores a guy with a 308 and 175 Sierras would be proud to come of the Palma Match with.

I made a custom mandrell on lathe and it gives .3585 inside neck diameter. Bullets size out at .3595. I can seat bullets with fingers. The 222s go in till they contact first great ring and stop. I ease them in and they engrave a bit prior to firing. I have not put any gas checks on these as yet.

Scope is a El Paso Weaver 2.5-7X. For sure it won't get to 1000. I might be able to get to 600 with it with Burris Zees with the inserts that offset .020".

Next session I will go to 100 yards and see how it does.

Also have some 4759 I will try.

If I can get this thing to print X ring on a HP repair center at 200 I will declare victory. Anything after that will be gravy.

[leftiye]

The 8mm-.35 gets to looking better and better as time goes on. Specially when made with a loooong neck from .30-06 brass (custom chamber).

[Humpy]

Did a little testing a few minutes ago. Started off with 12.4 2400 and the 222 bullet at 100 yards. From cold/clean bore first and second shots were 9/16" c-c, third shot opened it to 1 3/16" c-c and these were horizontal. Fourth shot was low, fifth shot high opening it to 2 3/4" vertical.
I think I know what is happening. I left the front of the stock touching from the bottom. I think I will put it out of stock and float it on out.
I went up to 12.7 gr. 2400 and it still shoots about the same and still subsonic.

Bullets shot off bench and target about 3 1/2 feet up strike the ground at 225 yards with the last load. Group appeared to be about 6-7 inches wide. Wallked out to 300 yards and did not find any on the ground. Would like to find one to see how the rifling takes.

The bullet I am using is a Lyman 358627 2 cavity as made for the 357 Maximum round. They quit making it about five years back I think.

[Humpy]

Found a 357446 bullet at 450 yards. I walked all the way to backstop (635 yards) and didn't find a 222 yet but as I shoot more I am bound to find one.


Rifling looked quite nice on it. The 2400 leaves a barrel full of unburned propellant. I am going to try 4759 and load some as cast after glopping on Alox. I can hand seat the bullets. It looks like 12 grains 2400 is the ticket. Have not run on chrono yet but it is still subsonic and barrel looks like a mirror after cleaning and not the first sign of leading.

All I am doing is dumping primer and reseating, they are not going in FL die. I am seating them with fingers to bottom of first groove where they stop and as I close the bolt the bullet is aligned and pre engraved. It seems to want to print about 2" at 100 yards. First shot will be a bit out but next four prints 2" range.

I need to organize a casting session and cast up about 500 of the 222s and inspect all carefully and weigh them out etc.

I am toying with the idea of a Saeco 352 240 grain mold but not sure if 16 twist will stabilize it. I like the 222 grain Lyman as it has rifling contact for about 2/3rds of the bullet length and punches nice round holes at 10 yards subsonic.

If anyone has one of these who will send me about 25 bullets I can shoot them at 10 yards to see if they show yaw. After all if they are stablized at 10 yards and are subsonic then I see no reason why they won't continue to fly well. Insofar as that goes if anyone has anything they want tried in a 16 twist barrel before buying one send me some proposed bullet samples and I will be glad to shoot them at 10 yards at subsonic vels and see how it performs for you. I can cut out the target, scan it and email it to you.

Oh yeah I am not seeing any rifle rotational problems from the bench either.


Biggest problem I see next is getting a set of Burris Signature Zee Rings and .020" offsets soI can get longer range. Once I develop THE LOAD combo I will zero at 100 and then test with same POA at 50, 150 to see what kind of drops it will produce. I have light moveable target stands and I can easily place it anywhere I want. For 600 I am figuring on using a Lyman Super TargetSpot or Unertl 1 1/4" with a high rear block as it is for sure this thing will be going downhill at the longer ranges.

[Humpy]

358 looking better all the time. A guy sent me some 272 grain to try in 16 twist.
I did the below Yaw study at 1000 inches and 100 yards and I only have fifteen of his bullets left and am thinking of shooting at 200 and 300 with them. They had a lubed weight variation of only 4/10th gr. Excellent quality bullets. If I wasn't into casting I would use these any day.

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt257/Hummer70/272Grbulletsyawdispersion.jpg

The bourrelet on this bullet is .350 and best I can figure I need .352 or .353 as it shows a slight in bore yaw angle that shows up down range. I tried a bullet in muzzle and it flops around in 358 but touches fine in a 35 Rem. Sure doesn't appear to hurt accuracy at 100 loaded to 1100 fps range is 1 1/16" (3 shot group at 4:00 o'clock) with 2400. I have 4756 and 4759 and other propellants to try. All others are 1 shot per target, velocity recorded for each and cut out and taped on 5X8 card to show yaw. Charges were 10.1, 11.5 and 13.1 gr 2400. 70°F, 300' ASL

All the above target is 3 shot strings and first shot in all tests showed highest velocity whether the barrel was clean or fouled.

I don't regret getting the 16 Pacnor at all and I think the performance will only get better.



Still absolutely no leading and two or three greased patches cleans it up nicely.

I just cast up another 150 of the 220 grain Lyman pistol bullets and my next session I am going to shoot them as cast as they are .360.

Will most likely get a NEI 358-282-GC designed by Ed Harris. The bourrelet he designed is .352 and OAL is 1.125 so will stabilize fine in 16 twist. The drive bands also come half way up the bullet so I figure they will be the bees knees but right now I am still playing with the 220 grain Lyman.

[smokemjoe]

My 35 Rem, 1-10 twist, CBE or LBT bullets, 310 gr. bullets+, at 100 yds. will shoot under 5/8s in .,At 200 yds. 1 in. or better, a 38 lb. rifle.

[PatMarlin]

Outstanding Humpy...!

I think your progress is very interesting and informative. These are my favorite threads- watching the work of an experienced seasoned shooter as yourself, go through tests and experiments in the quest for cast boolit performance. Not to mention the 358 winny is one of my favorite calibers, and is bound to be shown an awesome long range shooter, and you are doing the machining.

Every throught about trying the magical 4895?

[Trailblazer]

I have a NEI 290358GC mold that shoots very well in my 356 Winchester with a 12" twist. It is the bullet at the right below:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/556/23947356_Loads.jpg
RCBS 35-200-FN, Saeco 352, NEI-290-GC

The base didn't fill out on the bullet pictured. It casts at 295 grains with wheel weight and the driving bands cast at .360". I don't remember what the nose cast at but it engraves nicely. I don't have any samples to measure right now. Below is a typical group:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/556/23947356WIN-290NEI.JPG

[softpoint]

great i just went and bought a 358 win.
my plan is to run it up to bout 2200 and use it for 300 yd pin shooting.
just haven't decided on the 250 gr rcbs or 200 saeco yet.

Other way around, 200 gr. Rcbs, 245gr. Saeco. I have both, 3 35 cal. Rifles. 2, 358, 1 350 Rem Mag. My 2 358's have Shilen barrels, 1/14 twist(Ithink I stated on another thread they had 1/12, They do not, ) These two guns like both bullets about equally well. They both retain accuracy at around 2000fps or a little more. Now, I haven't shot either of these rifles at 1000 yards,And I know you lose SOME accuracy when your bullet goes sub-sonic, BUT,we are talking a cast bullet rifle here, not a 20lb. 30/378 with a 240 matchking. I could easily be convinced that a .358 win would outshoot a 45/70 at 1000 yards. .358 would have a flatter trajectory, less time of flight for wind to act on, Less surface area for wind to affect as well. This could be interesting, as I have a 1000 yard range here on my place, and I have a few 45/ 70 rifles as well. I don't have a Sharps, but I do have an accurate Browning B78. I had never thought about taking either the 45/70's or the .358's back there for trial runs, but it could be fun to compare those two.

[NLS1]

Wow another awesome thread on 358. Very cool. Bump for anyone else looking into a 358 build.