Expensive mistake?

[Anschutz]

I was loading .223 ammo with CFE 223. Went to change over to 9mm and accidentally dumped what was left of the CFE (just over the baffles is Hornady thrower) in about 5lbs of Ramshot Hunter. Did I just ruin all that powder or would it still be safe to use shaken up real good. My first thought was to use a screen to separate them but they are both small spherical powders. Looking at a burn rate chart, CFE is between Varget and Hunter and Varget is another .243 powder. Thanks. I feel real dumb about this one.

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[NoZombies]

Well, I guess you've got about 5 new pounds of fertilizer.

[trails4u]

I'd have some concern about varying density between the two powders. Will they mix/disperse evenly within the container, or will one 'float' toward the top or 'sink' toward the bottom. I don't know how to answer this question...but it would be my primary concern. You could certainly back off load development a bit and work up again with the 'oops'....I just don't know for certain that they would blend evenly.

[Bazoo]

If you ain't mixed it yet and the jug has not been disturbed since dumping you might could cut the top of the jug off with a razor knife and skim the first 1/2" of powder off carefully. You might be able to see a difference too in good light. That's where I'd start.

If I couldn't do that, I'd mix it and use it. It's approximately 1/8 pound of powder in 5 pounds.

[john.k]

Id just shake it up,it will stay mixed...such a small quantity of a similar burning rate will make no difference......One of the shotgun powders I use has at least three distinct shapes and colours of granules,obviously blended from different feeds to produce a specification.

[Shawlerbrook]

Personally, I wouldn’t let an expensive mistake, turn into a disastrous mistake.

[oldsalt444]

All is not lost. If you're talking about an ounce or so of CFE223 dumped into 5 lbs of Hunter, then I would use it. However, since CFE223 is a bit faster burning than Hunter, then I would start my loads about 15% lower than normal and work up watching for pressure signs. That's just being on the safe side, but I doubt you'll see much difference. Factory loads are often a mix of different powders to obtain a desired result. But then, those guys are truly the experts.

[bmortell]

I like the cut the jug open and skim the top off. but youd have to be sure you didn't move it. most people would have tipped it sideways and looked inside instinctually after they poured the wrong thing in which would have mixed it some. they whatever you put it in after slap a huge label on it

if it didn't stay upright id mix it and slap a huge label on there that says blah blah mixed powder and re establish load data from scratch.

I poured half ounce of 2400 in a can of bullseye before then I burned it which I regret doing now.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd recover what I could.
The area under that baffle can't be more than about 3 tablespoons by volume.
Going into 5 lbs. That's a pretty thin ratio.

After that, mix it up real well.
If you're not loading max. charges, it shouldn't be a big deal.

[Conditor22]

be safe, toss it your life isn't worth a mistake.

[Cheeto303]

That is why I only have one container of powder out of my powder magazine at a time. I also have reusable labels that I put on my powder dispenser so I know exactly what is in it at all times. When I'm done I match the powder dispenser label with the powder container before I dump dispenser into the powder container. Then the label is removed from the powder dispenser and stuck to the powder container. The container is then returned to the magazine. At that time I remove the next type of powder from the magazine. Only 1 powder out at a time.Stay alert stay alive.

[Bazoo]

I label my powder measure too. And I leave it labeled when empty as to what powder and amount it's set for.

[poppy42]

I hope your kidding and not really thinking of using two powder, mixed together and shaken real well! Yah, I’d use it! For fertilizer!

[Leoparddog]

It would probably be ok since its so little powder mixed into 5lbs and the burn rates are close. I'd probably mix it in well, shoot it and stay under max loads. If it was 1lb of powder you were talking about I'd put it into the garden.

[DGV]

Burn it! don't be foolish. $100 dollar lesson at most. I would be closing my eyes every time I touched a round off with that jug of Powder.

[gnostic]

I'd be afraid to pull the trigger, consider it a learning experience....

[Hick]

If the opinion of a Chemical Engineer matters, here's what I would do. If I only got a small amount of CFE223 in the Ramshot Hunter (an ounce or two in 5 pounds), I would Just stir it well and use it. The primary components of Ramshot Hunter are Nitroglycerine, Diphenylamine and DiButyl Phthalate-- same as CFE 223. The chemical difference is that CFE 223 uses Ethyl Centralite to stabilize the powder and moderate its burn rate, while Ramshot Hunter uses 2-nitrodiphenylamie as a stabilizer. They are both ball shaped, CFE on average has a diameter of 0.60 mm, while Hunter is on average 0.74 mm. The chemical difference makes the Ramshot burn somewhat slower. The main concern would be if you had pounds of one mixed with pounds of the other-- then you will have trouble getting a consistent burn rate-- and that could be a real problem.

[trails4u]

If, in fact, you only got a small amount of CFE223 in the Ramshot Hunter (an ounce or two in 5 pounds), Just stir well. The primary components of Ramshot Hunter are Nitroglycerine, Diphenylamine and DiButyl Phthalate-- same as CFE 223. The chemical difference is that CFE 223 uses Ethyl Centralite to stabilize the powder and moderate its burn rate, while Ramshot Hunter uses 2-nitrodiphenylamie as a stabilizer. They are both ball shaped, CFE on average has a diameter of 0.60 mm, while Hunter is on average 0.74 mm. The chemical difference makes the Ramshot burn slower burn a little slower, but these two are so alike you will be hard pressed to see a difference. The main concern would be if you had pounds of one mixed with pounds of the other-- then you will have trouble getting a consistent burn rate-- and that could be a real problem


For me, at least, this would alleviate all of my concerns. Being chemically very similar, and also similar in size of granulation, I would blend it well and shoot it. I would take the step of backing off and re-working the load. Probably overkill....but I'd do it. Safe is better than sorry.

[Flailguy]

I would mix well and load it into light plinker loads.

[megasupermagnum]

The safe answer is always to dump it.

But when you are talking about, what 2 or 3 ounces of powder in a 5 pound jug, and both are similar burn rates? I would shoot that and not worry. I can't imagine that being much different that the difference between brand new, and 20 year old powder.

The worst I did was one time dumping my lead shot from a hopper, about a pound before realizing my mistake, into the powder, thankfully only a pound. At the time I couldn't just go out and spend $15 on another pound. I spread it out on a cookie sheet, and picked the shot out with tweezers.

[Dimner]

If there is truly 5lbs in that container, you have 35,000 grains of hunter. Then add the maybe 1-2 Oz of CFE223. That is 438 to 875 grains you added to the hunter 5lb jug. *IF* you can keep them mixed well, you only added 1.25 to 2.5% to the hunter jug. Which I personally think would not make that much of a difference at all. Certainly not going to be fatal. Just use the hunter as normal and avoid anything above 95% of the max load.

[rking22]

For everyone who says burn it, Wayne Mayes might very well still be alive if he had not decided to burn some powder! If you just HAVE to dispose of it, just throw it over the yard but don’t burn it.
If you don’t want it, I’ll take it. Worst case load it with data for the faster powder.

[bmortell]

people have used booster charges of fast pistol powder to jumpstart a slow powder. if that can be done safely finding a safe charge of 98% hunter 2% cfe223 should be relatively easy with a normal workup starting more cautious. i really dont think the 20 little pieces of cfe are gonna act like black powder and poof the other powder. its just an in-between unlisted powder now

[Hamish]

For those who are freaking out, how do you think the powder producers get their product to approach uniformity, batch after batch?

[dverna]

If you use the data for the faster Powder, I do not see any issues with using it. Even if you put 1/2 a pound in.

For powders with vastly different burn rates and physical characteristics it would not be wise.

[rbuck351]

I don't think you are too far off the lot to lot differences of any powder. Still should start low and work up just like any new to you lot of powder. Do shake it up well. Ball powders usually have different size balls of powder in any lot so it should blend well and stay blended. I have a 25# jug of 5010 which is useless to me without booster charges of much faster powders. Anyway, I wouldn't throw it out.

[M-Tecs]

Hodgdon got it's start selling GI surplus 4895. This was not canister grain powder. I have read a lot of mixing was done to get the proper burning rates for the 4895 and other powder. Mixed powders are not new nor are they dangerous when done properly.

[Bazoo]

What are you going to do if you start using it and find that it shoots better than ever?

[rbt5050]

be safe and dump it. if something goes wrong it could cost you a gun or worst yet your life.

[M-Tecs]

What are you going to do if you start using it and find that it shoots better than ever?

Rumor has it that is how Hornady gets a velocity increase with it Super Performance powder.

On a side note I was giving 8K of small rifle primers that had be under water for three day. After they dried I would get a couple of failure to fire per 1,000 but they grouped of best of any lot of primers to date.

[Peregrine]

If the opinion of a Chemical Engineer matters, here's what I would do. If I only got a small amount of CFE223 in the Ramshot Hunter (an ounce or two in 5 pounds), I would Just stir it well and use it. The primary components of Ramshot Hunter are Nitroglycerine, Diphenylamine and DiButyl Phthalate-- same as CFE 223. The chemical difference is that CFE 223 uses Ethyl Centralite to stabilize the powder and moderate its burn rate, while Ramshot Hunter uses 2-nitrodiphenylamie as a stabilizer. They are both ball shaped, CFE on average has a diameter of 0.60 mm, while Hunter is on average 0.74 mm. The chemical difference makes the Ramshot burn somewhat slower. The main concern would be if you had pounds of one mixed with pounds of the other-- then you will have trouble getting a consistent burn rate-- and that could be a real problem.

Also a chemist, i'd like to know where you get your data from.

[M-Tecs]

Also a chemist, i'd like to know where you get your data from.



http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/msds1.pdf

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/all-hodgdon-spherical-powders_02-11-14.pdf

[smithnframe]

I would spread it out in my driveway at night and wait till my grandson is here for the weekend and light it up!

[6bg6ga]

I'd recover what I could.
The area under that baffle can't be more than about 3 tablespoons by volume.
Going into 5 lbs. That's a pretty thin ratio.

After that, mix it up real well.
If you're not loading max. charges, it shouldn't be a big deal.

I would follow this advice. Five lbs of power is an expensive replacement option. I personally trust the advice given in this post.

[Sig556r]

Risks vs. Rewards...
Door# 1: Lose the powder & move on = 0 reward, 0 risk....Boring
Door #2: Listen to guys on interweb & work loads on mixed powders = high reward (you may have invented a shooter's holy grail powder mix), high risk (life/limb/gun)...Exciting...YOLO
Which door would you choose?

[6bg6ga]

Risks vs. Rewards...
Door# 1: Lose the powder & move on = 0 reward, 0 risk....Boring
Door #2: Listen to guys on interweb & work loads on mixed powders = high reward (you may have invented a shooter's holy grail powder mix), high risk (life/limb/gun)...Exciting...YOLO
Which door would you choose?

Sooner or later your going to make the same mistake as the thread started did. Some of us older dogs have been there and done that so to speak. Throwing away around $150-180 worth of powder in this case because of the small amount isn't necessary. My opinion. I made a similar mistake with H110 and H335. I simply mixed it good and continued to use it at a load less than maximum. Haven't lost any guns as a result.

[lightman]

I'm not sure what I would do in this situation. But looking forward I would develop a routine to avoid this problem in the future. Only one powder on the bench at a time and full concentration.

[jmorris]

Disposing of the powder is the thing to do.

The only way to make your mistake even more expensive is to make another mistake and try and use it.

How does the “risk vs reward” work out for you?

What’s the cost of the powder vs hurting yourself, someone else or the firearms you intend to use the ammunition with?

If you get lucky and don’t hurt anything or anyone are you now going to be able to live the high life with the money you saved?

Not to mention any “development” you would do would be completely worthless because you don’t even know exactly what you have. So that’s all just wasted time if you safely get to the bottom of the container.

[Anschutz]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'll probably toss it. I'm moving to Alaska in about a month and have more powder than is allowed to cross into Canada anyways.

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[dverna]

You are not alone

Nearly dumped pistol powder into rifle powder. Much more dangerous. After that, only one powder is ever on my loading bench.

[44magLeo]

I'm in the one powder at a time on the bench.
The only time I pour powder into a bottle it didn't come out of is when I get to the bottom of a bottle, and it's not enough to load more than a few it gets dumped into the bottle of the same powder I open. I then mix it well.
I've not mixed two powders other than this.
If I did, even as limited as my budget is I would use it as fertilizer, but then again I only buy powder in 1 lb. bottles.
Leo

[onomrbil]

Get out your vacuum cleaner.

[Cheeto303]

I'd mix it up real well and load some lite loads and ask my wife if she wants to test fire my newest concoction. (Ok don't get your panties all twisted up in a wad, this is meant to humorous.)

[Anschutz]

I'd mix it up real well and load some lite loads and ask my wife if she wants to test fire my newest concoction. (Ok don't get your panties all twisted up in a wad, this is meant to humorous.)Funny. I like my wife too much. If something did happen it better kill her or she'd be coming for my head.

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[Shawlerbrook]

Just the fact that some of those advising to use it are saying “ it probably” will be ok should tell you to be safe and fertilize your lawn. Ditto on the one type of powder on the bench at a time.

[GregLaROCHE]

If you ain't mixed it yet and the jug has not been disturbed since dumping you might could cut the top of the jug off with a razor knife and skim the first 1/2" of powder off carefully. You might be able to see a difference too in good light. That's where I'd start.

If I couldn't do that, I'd mix it and use it. It's approximately 1/8 pound of powder in 5 pounds.

I did that when I poured the wrong powder into a container. I cut the top off and went below the added powder and saved majority of the powder on the bottom. What was on top, not very much, I got rid of. The powder I kept worked fine.

I now store all powder on the far side of the room and only take one type out at a time. A good practice, even if you haven’t learned about it the hard way.

[Bazoo]

You aught to consider giving it to one of the members here who would be willing to chance it's use. I'm sure many here would consider it to be a blessing.

[Herb in Pa]

You aught to consider giving it to one of the members here who would be willing to chance it's use. I'm sure many here would consider it to be a blessing.

Well said...……..

[roysha]

Do you have the mental make up to be able to actually load and shoot this mixture without cringing and shuddering every time you pull the trigger? If you do, as some replies stated, you would probably be OK. If not, then every time you pull the trigger you will be just wasting time and components.

Personally I would not use it, but then, I don't believe in shooting damascus barreled shotguns but know a lot of people that shoot them regularly. So, I guess it's pretty much "pay your dollar and take your choice".

[Dimner]

Lemme put it this way. (And this is not an offer to buy out of swap and sell)

If you were local, and we could do a Face to face transaction, I'd buy the powder off you for 65% of its usual value. That's how confident I would be shooting it.

[bmortell]

I deffinitly wouldn't give it to someone else if your scared to use it yourself that sounds like a terrible idea. if you dont wanna use it spread it like fertilizer and leave it or pour a long line of it and light an end and set up a chair cause rifle powder takes a while

[bmortell]

on second thought why do people say to use powder as fertilizer. im not sure I want Nitroglycerine, Diphenylamine, DiButyl Phthalate, Ethyl Centralite and 2-nitrodiphenylamie in my garden or water table, doesn't sound very healthy.

[Winger Ed.]

on second thought why do people say to use powder as fertilizer. .


Its great fertilizer.
High Nitrogen content is what makes good fertilizer expensive.

Farmers have been known to make their own explosives for blasting out stumps from fertilizer.
It would be a small version of a 'Timmy McVeigh' bomb that he also made out of common fertilizer.

Spread it out and get it wet--- then it isn't explosive or flammable any more.

[M-Tecs]

Since the burn rates of these powders are relatively close, both are ball powder and the amount mixed is very small it really is more of a comfort and knowledge concern than a safety concern. If you are competent enough to purchase and use surplus powders from the various sources as listed below you will not have any issues. Same load workup principles apply.

http://www.surpluspowder.com/gunpowder.html

https://hi-techammo.com/collections/surplus-military-gunpowder

http://www.patsreloading.com/patsrel3/Items.aspx?category=Powder

https://www.cdvs.us/product/rad-78l-14-jug-rad-78l-powder-for-223-308-30-06-with-data-sheet-this-powder-makes-tracers-work-this-powder-is-comparable-to-imr-7383/

On the other hand if you are not comfortable working up loads and you are the type that start with max and you go up from there than this isn't for you.

I am old enough that I started with purchasing Hodgdon Surplus powder at the hardware store out of 150 pound kegs. You scooped it out and put it into a brown paper bag and weight is on the store scale same as you did for nails.

[Finster101]

I'd shoot it.

[Petander]

Sooner or later your going to make the same mistake as the thread started did. Some of us older dogs have been there and done that so to speak. Throwing away around $150-180 worth of powder in this case because of the small amount isn't necessary. My opinion. I made a similar mistake with H110 and H335. I simply mixed it good and continued to use it at a load less than maximum. Haven't lost any guns as a result.

Been there,done that,too.

I still have that powder can,clearly marked "MIXED POWDER". I've been using the can as a powder trashcan. I pour everything spilled or pulled or whatever questionable powder I may have. It all goes in that trash.

I have no intentions to use my trash powder for reloading ammo,no. Can't imagine pulling the trigger... not to mention hoping to hit something.

The good news is,most people do this mistake only once. It's a memorable moment, pouring into a wrong can. Like putting diesel in a gasoline car...

[djryan13]

Get out your vacuum cleaner.


This works.. I dumped 4198 in with red dot once... just a little bit. I didn’t shake or anything. I just vacuumed out the top quarter of the 8lb jug. Have not seen any sticks in my red dot (and I have been looking).

[abunaitoo]

A friend did the same thing.
He poured out the powder and used a magnifying glass to separate the granules.
I thought it was kind of funny.

[Land Owner]

I found out in a "high pucker factor way" that I had mixed two powders, when (Lucky Me) at the bench the rifle went "pffft", and I observed the round exit the barrel to fall about 4-feet away! The amount of unburned powder in the barrel was the Tell Tale sign that I had screwed the Pooch and was one Lucky SOB. It seems I forgot to dump the previous powder from below the powder measure baffle. Only one powder was "on the bench" at the time and I was CARELESS to not notice the powder still in the measure. I have since modified my reloading regime to include this additional step.

I made a series of compressed wads of that powder, rolled newspaper, string, and firecracker fuse. It was the most fun the boys and I have had in a while, lighting those loads then getting far away in the yard to see what would happen. Like Forth of July fireworks, they didn't explode, just fizzed and burned the newspaper creating a satisfying smoke. Still, we had a ball trying it.

Bottom line...don't waste your time or experiment like this. It really isn't worth it and I would not think twice...burn it (it's fun) or fertilize it.

[Baltimoreed]

Thats why I like having multiple dedicated measures and use a very limited palette of powders. I can keep my powder measure adjustments indefinitely and when I swap dies I just swap measures. Just keep topping the hopper off. I load mostly for 45 and 38 handguns. I use the same 193 gr lead bullet load for my 30-40 krag and 30-06. It’s a compromise between my [69 year old body’s] ability to hold and shoot my milsurp rifles and the simplicity of the reloading for them.

[FLINTNFIRE]

And again such a small amount of almost the same powder , if it was a fast powder with a slow I might toss but 2 almost the same burn rate and as said above to all who wont then dont its your powder your time, but as has been pointed out do not shoot pull down powder either then as a lot of us older casters and reloaders did and still do , this is like a duplex thread all those who have never worked up loads in calibers with powders that little or no data exist for , I suppose it is the same at the powder companies , someone has to work up the data and have a clue as to how , but that has been pointed out to already , start with faster data use caution and use it for plinking ammo , so do not use pistol powders for cast rifle as so many of us do , do not buy any powder but what there is data for for that current batch and lot number and I suggest some should shoot only factory loads , I will still use surplus and I will duplex as I see fit , I will also shoot pistol powders with cast rifle , your call and if you have to much toss it . Now you and only you can make such a decision as to safe or unsafe .

[rubinschmidt]

I'd ask Joe Biden. He knows everything about guns. He'll probably tell you to stuff it into your double barreled shotgun and that's all you need.

If you're lucky you'll get an answer before you have to decide for whom to vote for in the big Super Thursday primary tomorrow.