food for thought

[redriverhunter]

Tonight I went to a class by one prepaid legal defense companies. They brought up a past case, one thing that made a case hard to defend is he had different brands of ammo in his magazine. who's spent brass is who's same caliber. This got me to thinking, I do carry some hand load ammo, and I am sure that it is all mixed head stamps. I would hate to ever have to defend myself with a firearm and if I did I would surly want to make it as easy as I could for law enforcement and lawyers to sort out the details.

[Land Owner]

You "want" to make it easy for the Prosecution? Remember, the police and Prosecutor are NOT on your side - EVER! Even if they have evidence that would help you prove your innocence, the SCOTUS has ruled it is NOT their job to exonerating you. Their job is to provide support to the Prosecutor - PERIOD. The Prosecutor is NOT your friend.

For this, and other reasons, attorneys insist that you DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE - EVER (YouTube video link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE ).

Incomplete instructions are why Defense Attorneys make money. Politically driven State legislatures allow stoopid stuff to exist in their laws. Overzealous Prosecutor's made it "hard to defend" under the laws in your state rather than stopping it in its tracks.

Some Prosecuting attorneys, politically or anti-gun motivated, seek to convicted a gun owner for defending his life, or the life of another, after shooting a combative suspect. Prosecutors jack up charges and confuse issues for juries with such things as "prior intent" through reloaded ammo, "killer bullets", conjuring cast boolit mold nomenclature - "Devestator" hollow points. Oooohhhhhhhhh! Scary stuff. Juries buy into the hype if the Prosecutor is good and the Defense not so good or hamstrung by incomplete instructions in the law.

Contrasted against Florida's "Stand Your Ground" and its presumption of "fear of loss of life" or "great bodily harm", there is in that law no distinction (or mention) of handloads, differing ammo, differing bullets, cast or jacketed, etc. The Florida Law is clear - Prosecutors must prove the negative beyond a reasonable doubt that Fear was NOT the reason a defendant used deadly force for self-defense. If the prosecutor fails this test, the defendant wins immunity from prosecution, including immunity from civil law suits that might have been brought by the deceased's heirs.

So, it is good to be familiar with the carry laws in your state and if necessary, purchase the BEST Defense Attorney money can buy - after all, it is only money. You get one chance in court. Make it the BEST chance and remember DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE. If your Prosecutor is anti-gun or overzealous, you could fall prey to incomplete instructions in the law with regard to a combination of components.

[bob208]

I had a break in at my shop the state cop that came to investigate took the report. we were talking. he said if you do catch them in the shop and shoot. the only two things you say is I feared for my life and lawyer.

I carry reloads all the time.

[Land Owner]

I don't really see protection of "things" (property) as reasonable use of deadly force. I always think, steal a loaf of bread - lose their life? No. Not reasonable to me. "Things" are replaceable; someone's life is not.

Surprising them in your home, or office, or shop, or car, or public place, and YOU feel threatened with "great bodily harm", in particular if they are combative, then shoot! Defend yourself! Shoot to kill!

Just know that in most jurisdictions your actions will precipitate reactions of a nature the likes you have never nor could ever have imagined. Your world will change. You will live with those memories (and public reactions) forever. If you don't lose sleep over it, you have no compassion. Still, the adage that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 was penned for good reason.

[bob208]

I live in a free state we have stand your ground so if I catch them in my shop or house I don't have to hold the door for them.

[kerplode]

This got me to thinking, I do carry some hand load ammo, and I am sure that it is all mixed head stamps. I would hate to ever have to defend myself with a firearm and if I did I would surly want to make it as easy as I could for law enforcement and lawyers to sort out the details.
Uh, then maybe spend $20 on some factory ammo instead of carrying your reloads...I know, people are all "BUT MUH RELOADS! *PIFF* NO ONE DONE EVER WENT TO JAIL FOR NO RELOADS!" Yeah, maybe...You wanna be the first? Remember...Your "peers" on the jury are the 12 dummies that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty that day.

Use recognized factory ammo. Make it clear to the cops that show up you were the victim and you feared for your life. Ask for your lawyer then shut ya yap and hope you have enough savings to weather the legal storm to come.

[Duckiller]

#2 son, the lawyer requires that if I move and get a concealed carry permit that I also get insurance to protect me if I ever use the permit.

[MrWolf]

#2 son, the lawyer requires that if I move and get a concealed carry permit that I also get insurance to protect me if I ever use the permit.

There is a YouTube video which had a 2nd Amendment attorney on who went through the various cost scenarios. Conclusion was get insurance but make sure to use a company that covers your costs upfront and not reimburse. Also one that allows you to pick your attorney.

[Cheeto303]

I live in a free state we have stand your ground so if I catch them in my shop or house I don't have to hold the door for them.

Statements on the internet like this can and will be used against you in a court of law. They will try to show intent with everything you ever posted on the net.

[lightman]

#2 son, the lawyer requires that if I move and get a concealed carry permit that I also get insurance to protect me if I ever use the permit.

When I retired and rolled my 401 plan over to a different institution my financial advisor suggested for me to consult an estate planning attorney and to get an insurance policy to cover stuff like this.

I sort my brass by headstamp, but I often mix it when shooting. Except for my home defense, match and hunting ammo. Buying a 25 round box of factory is probably a good idea.

[Cheeto303]

I only use commonly available good quality factory loaded self defense ammunition. As in reloading I consider it as identifying and reducing variables.

[Cheeto303]

Uh, then maybe spend $20 on some factory ammo instead of carrying your reloads...I know, people are all "BUT MUH RELOADS! *PIFF* NO ONE DONE EVER WENT TO JAIL FOR NO RELOADS!" Yeah, maybe...You wanna be the first? Remember...Your "peers" on the jury are the 12 dummies that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty that day.

Use recognized factory ammo. Make it clear to the cops that show up you were the victim and you feared for your life. Ask for your lawyer then shut ya yap and hope you have enough savings to weather the legal storm to come.

If you do have to use your weapon be very very careful what say when you call 911 after the incident. I met a man who had a colostomy bag and I asked him what happened. He was attacked by a thug and shot him then immediately called 911 and told the operator that he was attacked and shot and wounded the attacker, then he said to the operator 'the victim is on the ground'. The police arrived and saw him covering the thug with with his pistol and they proceeded to shoot him.

[bedbugbilly]

An interesting read and I have no dog in this fight but just want to make a comment or two . . . .

Unfortunately . . . we are now living in a time where in many jurisdictions, it's all about the criminal's r"rights" - oh gee - they can do the crime but can't afford the bail so let's just put a revolving door on the front of the court house - let 'em go so they can perpetuate another crime on a "law abiding citizen".

I used to believe in a lot of things . . . like the American justice system where a person was deemed innocent util proven guilty . . . no more. All you have to do is look around at what is going on to realize that there are several levels of "justice" in this country. Just think of a scenario where a person may, unfortunately, be involved in a situation where they have to shoot someone due to being in fear for their life or a family member or another citizen. Have we not learned anything the past three and a half years about Judges who are supposed to be unbiased and Lady Justice is supposed to be blindfolded an yet politics and personal feelings of a politically appointed judge gets in the way? Or let us not forget the jury members who are politically opposed to such things and have so much hatred for those that believe in the 2nd Amendment that they cannot sit on a jury and judge things in an unbiased and fair way?

Think such things can't happen? The take a look at what just almost happened in Virginia. There is a faction in Arizona right now that is trying to get Kalifornia type gun laws passed. Somehow, we have become, and it seems like it happened overnight at times, a nation whee a portion of the lawmakers who make the laws choose to ignore them for their political gain and personal beliefs and the "citizens" - and this includes ALL citizens whether you are purple, pink or polka dotted, are just the open checkbook full of blank checks and an unending balance that these politicians seem to think they can draw on anytime they want to. These issues have everything to do with what is being discussed in this thread. Think not? How many of us could have ever thought that there would be a Socialist/Communist running for POTUS who is actually being taken seriously by some?

In the end, hopefully nobody here will ever have to defend their life or that of their family, but, if you do . . . . . be informed on what it involves and the nightmare you'll be facing.

Exercise your right to vote in 2020! I know who I'll be voting for and it won't be anyone in the party that has refused to display the American flag at their "co called" debates.

[fast ronnie]

While taking the required course for my CCW, the instructor was adamant about not carrying reloads for carry. Best is to use the same loads as law enforcement. Lawyers will use ANY excuse to put you behind bars.

[nicholst55]

I had been a believer in the 'there's never been anyone convicted because of what type ammo they used in a defensive shooting' mantra for years. Recently though, I decided to try to use the same ammo that the local LEOs use, if it's commercially available. I don't want to be the test case for the new Soros/Bloomberg-financed prosecutor or judge who is trying to make points with their handlers. If spending $25-50 for some ammo every six months or so will prevent that, it's well worth the expense. And also, as the off-duty policeman who taught the concealed carry class that I attended told us, we don't "shoot to kill." We shoot to "eliminate (or stop) the threat."

[Bantou]

I had been a believer in the 'there's never been anyone convicted because of what type ammo they used in a defensive shooting' mantra for years. Recently though, I decided to try to use the same ammo that the local LEOs use, if it's commercially available. I don't want to be the test case for the new Soros/Bloomberg-financed prosecutor or judge who is trying to make points with their handlers. If spending $25-50 for some ammo every six months or so will prevent that, it's well worth the expense. And also, as the off-duty policeman who taught the concealed carry class that I attended told us, we don't "shoot to kill." We shoot to "eliminate (or stop) the threat."

I don’t carry what the local PD does but I do carry factory ammo. For me it isn’t as much about legality as it is about performance. I carry 230gr federal hydroshocks because I have seen their performance on a variety of game animal and it is truly impressive. They leave nice large holes in soft flesh and penetrate one side of a deer skull and imbed in the other (the brain was turned to jello). Results like that are hard to argue with when it comes to quickly stopping a threat. The more pain and damage I can inflict in a short amount of time, the more likely the threat is going to stop in said time. Yes I could probably work up a load that would match their performance but why? In the grand scheme of things a $40 box of shells every year doesn’t amount to much and I don’t have to waste time trying to reinvent the wheel.



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[firefly1957]

I have two 45 acp pistols I carry one gets Corebon 165 + P ammo the other I carry mostly on my property and locally and because it shoots a lot of pest gets reloads with cast bullets . I was cleaning up storm debris on my property when I was charged by a pitbull the dog stopped at the sight of my 1911 I yelled at it to get out of here. That brought a response from the woods from the dogs meth head owner who was going to beat my *** for yelling at his sweet dog, I had reholstered the pistol by time he trespassed into my land . Things went bad he swung a chainsaw at me and ended up at gun point ,Before he left he took the chainsaw to my truck and the police were called . He then went after two deputies with the chainsaw (they took well over an hour to respond) so he went to jail charged with 8 felonies and a high court Misdemeanor, I found out he was on Parole for a violent crime and out on bail for a newer crime when he attacked me .
The waste of a judge gave him a year in local jail which is 6 months six days real time! On the day of his release he attacked two more deputies so he is in prison yet but only got a minimum of 13 months for that and will be out before to long!

Anyway I talked to the deputies and the prosecutor about the use of reloads in such a instance they all told me all that matters is that the shooting was proper that past abuses by prosecutors here in Michigan has changed our laws for the better.

Now we have a new governor and state A.G. that would like to go back to abusing the law abiding but both houses are still conservative.
One case that got the laws changed involved a self defense shooting with the Black Talon ammo first time up the victim that was forced to shoot an attacker was found guilty of murder for using "especially lethal ammo" even though it was Winchester ammo like the police used!
I do not know how many of you know it but right now the democrat party has a movement called "every criminal deserves a day in court" that has a stated goal of making self defense a crime and disarming most police officers!

[Dapaki]

"Following the Long Island Railroad Mass Murder in 1993, Black Talon ammunition attained notoriety in the media and with the anti-gun lobby. Subsequently, one of the shooting victim's family members filed a lawsuit against Olin, Inc, trying to hold them responsible for the victim's death. The lawsuit, however, was dismissed."

[fcvan]

I had been a believer in the 'there's never been anyone convicted because of what type ammo they used in a defensive shooting' mantra for years. Recently though, I decided to try to use the same ammo that the local LEOs use, if it's commercially available. I don't want to be the test case for the new Soros/Bloomberg-financed prosecutor or judge who is trying to make points with their handlers. If spending $25-50 for some ammo every six months or so will prevent that, it's well worth the expense. And also, as the off-duty policeman who taught the concealed carry class that I attended told us, we don't "shoot to kill." We shoot to "eliminate (or stop) the threat."

I too have never read where reloads were ever an issue in a self defense situation. It seems lots of attorneys want to create a need where none exists through fear. The real concern, as we all know, is being able to articulate the threat perceived at the moment force was used.

Back to reloads, I have always felt the loads you practice with should be the loads you carry. That is also the current trend in law enforcement. When I was first sworn in, we carried S&W M10 38 S&W revolvers. We trained with wadcutters and carried the 158gr SWCHP. It was many years before we started training with duty ammo. This was pushed through headquarters by an ammo vendor through the 'legal fear' methodology. The vendor had a vested interest in the outcome. Even when manufacturers developed ammo that mimicked the recoil and performance of their duty ammo, the vendors were successful in pushing the whole train with duty ammo nonsense.

Personally, I carry what I train with, my hand loads. I can show they are not loaded beyond but rather below maximum loading. I can also show a video of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department range, where deputies trained with and carried loads produced by the range/armory staff.

Still, reloads have never been an issue during any trial concerning self defense. Many articles have been written regarding the inherent dangers, but you bet your butt there would be even more mention of actual self defense cases where reloads were utilized and it was an issue. Magazine writers need to write, it is how they stay relevant and get paid. You know that a sensational case of self defense with reloads would certainly make sure they got paid.

"Why do you shoot so much?" To maintain proficiency and for enjoyment.
"Why do you reload?" Because I enjoy the hobby, and is cost effective. I can shoot more at a reduced expense.
"Why do you train tactically, in low light, and on uneven surfaces?" Because threats don't often present themselves on flat ground, broad daylight, and only one threat at a time.
"Why not just shoot targets?" Because a bad guy/gal presenting a threat rarely stands straight up with a perfect contrast from the background.

I have never heard any of the previous questions having been raised in court. If it happened we would have read all about it. The one thing I often see here is folks concerned about using internet posts to establish intent for self defense, only for criminal intent such as suspected members of some radical group. Sure, we are thought of as radicals, especially when we quote Jefferson or even Ghandi. Call me a radical, and quote me when I say "When you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics suck." I have always liked that one.

[Dapaki]

Merica! That means you can do as you please, handload and carry them if you please. I will not do so though, only factory rounds go into my EDC for self defense and yes, I do practice with them quite often.

There is no way I will give the prosecution or the jury any more reason to find me guilty in the case of a 'good shoot'. It's nonsense to try and defend against actual self defense cases where reloads were utilized since this is never the charge against a person, it's just a piece of the evidence that most certainly be used to chip away your credibility. Why take the chance? Stubborn pride?

[ioon44]

Yes me too, only factory rounds go into my EDC for self defense and any one who carry's need to practice on a regular basis.

[Woodnbow]

Well, that escalated quickly...

I’m just happy to see so many Americans taking responsibility for their own safety and that of the community writ large. Some will use reloads, some factory hollow points, some might even choose lead solids or ball ammunition. I know a few people who are carrying cap and ball revolvers as primary EDC weapons. I’m glad to see it. You don’t need to be approved by me. Nor do my choices have to pass muster with you. America. With all of the options freely available to us, it truly is the greatest country in history.

[Bantou]

Well, that escalated quickly...

I’m just happy to see so many Americans taking responsibility for their own safety and that of the community writ large. Some will use reloads, some factory hollow points, some might even choose lead solids or ball ammunition. I know a few people who are carrying cap and ball revolvers as primary EDC weapons. I’m glad to see it. You don’t need to be approved by me. Nor do my choices have to pass muster with you. America. With all of the options freely available to us, it truly is the greatest country in history.

I’m guessing the people with cap and ball aren’t allowed to own anything more modern?


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[elmacgyver0]

I keep hearing about it may not be a good thing to carry reloads in your defense handgun, probably valid points.
Have you ever considered the handgun itself?
A .45 is considered a one shot manstopper, you know, one shot kill BS, whereas most people in this country consider a .22 or .32 an anemic pathetic round hardly viable for a defensive situation.
Not making recommendations, just something for thought.

[Duckiller]

Can anyone cite a case where the type of ammo some one used to defend himself or family member was critical or even considered. A part time cop and gun writer from New Hampshire has been making a big deal about using reloads. No evidence or court case just his opinion.

[kerplode]

Can anyone cite a case where the type of ammo some one used to defend himself or family member was critical or even considered. A part time cop and gun writer from New Hampshire has been making a big deal about using reloads. No evidence or court case just his opinion.

Mas Ayoob is a recognized expert witness in use of force court cases. You can brush him off if you'd like, but if he says he has been personally involved in cases where the use of reloads turned out to be problematic for the defendant, I'm gonna take his word for it. But whatever, man. You go on and use your reloads if you wanna.

Me personally...Well, I'm not gonna give the prosecution any additional angles to exploit.

[Dapaki]

Can anyone cite a case where the type of ammo some one used to defend himself or family member was critical or even considered. A part time cop and gun writer from New Hampshire has been making a big deal about using reloads. No evidence or court case just his opinion.

Yupper, ended with a nice little "flame war" from an opinionated overlord here.

The thing with your question is this; it's a loaded question or an informal fallacy where the answerer is forced to pour over millions of pages of court documents to find testimony by experts then a poll must be taken of the jurors to see if the expert testimony had any bearing in a particular case.

Going back to the OP where the statement is posed; "I would surly want to make it as easy as I could for law enforcement and lawyers to sort out the details."

Why add points against you?

[lightman]

Can anyone cite a case where the type of ammo some one used to defend himself or family member was critical or even considered. A part time cop and gun writer from New Hampshire has been making a big deal about using reloads. No evidence or court case just his opinion.

This has been argued over for decades. I personally have never seen or heard about anyone being treated differently because of reloads. I mean, this is not tv, and most PD's don't have the crime scene people that we see on tv. And if they do have them available, are they really going to pull out all of the stops for some thug thats already been in a ton of trouble?

For the record, my Wife and I both carry concealed and we both carry factory ammo. But your average LE guy ain't going to recognize a reload from factory. Not unless its a cast Keith Type SWC.

But I admit the risk is there so why take the chance?

[Greg S]

Personally, my opinion is it can be justified and everything on the level but carrying handloaded ammo can be the thread the state can pull to muddy the water, distort the facts ect. Just take a look at the recent impeachment fiasco. If they pull that crap in a Grand Jury, it can leave doubt and can cause a change in a sime case front no bill to be held for trial. Not to say plan your defense, just kinda streamline it and make it easy for the state to come to the right conclusion.

Ballistics work is going to be done. If there is a known standard for off the shelf comparison, i.e. vel, expansion, powder burns ect, it is difficut to do this without a refrence standard to confirm distances ect which can cloud findings, thus raise questions, can be used to form conclusions on how something may have gone down instead of supportIng other evidence found at your crime scene.

[fcvan]

I too have read Massad Ayoob's articles and protestations regarding the use of handloads. I have never seen his reference to an actual case study where such an issue was raised. All I have seen was his 'opinion' and not supported by actual case law. What matters is your ability to articulate the threat perceived at the moment force was utilized. If the threat is reasonable, the use of deadly force is reasonable, and anything from a 22 LR to a 45 easplittenloudenboomer is reasonable, so long as there is a threat, and you fired to stop the threat.

Think about this, there are plenty of videos of LEOs using their cruiser to stop a deadly threat. Were they certified in the use of bumper to stop the threat? No, they did not need to be. The threat, and the need to stop that threat, was the threshold. *** defense attorneys are easily defeated with factual reporting of the situation. I've seen it, I've been a part of it, I worked with and for the local DA during my employ in LE for 30+ years.

How you stop the threat is nowhere near the need to articulate the threat justifying the use of deadly force. BTW, I am still waiting for Ayoob to publish a case that supports his claims regarding the type of ammo used, even if it is factory +++PPP+++ super zapper ammo.

That being said, Massad Ayoob is a very knowledgeable person, has testified as a subject matter expert many times, and is well respected by many, including myself. He has not, however, provided actual case citations regarding the use of handloads, he only warns against their use.