45LC Case bulge... bad chamber?

[tacotime]

These .45 Colt cases are from a 1/2 grain below-maximum Lyman published 2400 load (for rifle, not from the Ruger/Marlin/TC section) and a 250gr boolit out of a Winchester 94 lever. Winchester brass. I wonder if the chamber has a wide spot in dimensions. No cracks seen in cases.

I wonder if this is common on the 94, because I saw a .357 case fired in a 94 and it shows a similar bulge. The Model 94 chamber entrance is ramped open slightly at the bottom where the round feeds from, so I wonder if all 94 chambers and cases may show this if rounds are fired with enough pressure.

I note that the same 45LC rifle using cowboy loads at 750fps or so, does not show bulged cases. I wonder if the heavier load expands the brass just stronger and for a longer amount of time, to cause the brass to "fire form" and exposes the wide dimension in the chamber?

What do you think about the bulge and the rifle?

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257142

[ddixie884]

Almost all lever rifles are chambered loose to aid with feeding. I think near max loads will result in some case expansion. A load a little below max may give a lot less case bulge.

[6bg6ga]

I think its ok and will full length resize back to standard dims.

[Outpost75]

Chamber is too large. Measure diameter of fired case at the bulge. Expect that it is over .485"

Load is probably too hot.

Dies size the brass too much. Measure your sized cases, expect they are smaller in body diameter than .475"

Look for an older STEEL .45 Colt, or .455 Webley sizing die, not a carbide die, and LUBRICATE the cases!

RCBS Cowboy dies work the brass less, but older dies before 1970s are better.

Or have a steel die honed to .478" for use with .454" bullets.

Be thankful you were not using old pre-WW2 balloon-head cases, as they would have FAILED!

Repeatedly firing to blow out and then excessively resizing the brass will work-harden the brass, setting you up for a KABOOM! when the poorly supported case head blows!

I had a Marlin 1894 Cowboy II in .45 Colt which did this and I had John Taylor set back the barrel, rechamber it to .45 ACP and rework the lifter to feed the shorter cartridges. Even with +P loads I get no case bulge in a normal .45 ACP chamber.

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[CastingFool]

From what I have read, 45 Colt chambers are cut a bit larger than really needed. The cartridge performance would show an improvement if the firearm had a tighter chamber.

[tacotime]

Don't want no Kaboom!

By "too hot" do you mean only because of the chamber dimensions, not because of the load itself? (being below the maximum load and not into the Marlin/Ruger/TC loads and a good 1.5 below the maximum load used by Waters in a Model 94). Primers not flattened. No sticky extraction.

That load level shot very well. Since these are hunting rounds not plinking or cowboy rounds, very few will be used. What if I limit the brass to new cases or once fired cowboy cases? Most on hand are Winchester. Does that sound reasonable, even if I can't locate a larger sizing die?

The bulge is only on the one side. But maybe too far forward to be related to the flared area for feeding at the chamber entrance? If not due to the feeder, then apparently there is a random oversized area in the chamber. Will measure the case.

What about the factory .357 load showing a similar bulge in the same case location a different Model 94? Has anyone seen any bulges out of a 94 case before? Never did myself but I wasn't looking either because I didn't reload back then. Maybe I should check an old .30-30 case and see if it shows a bulge.

Thanks for the advice.

[Outpost75]

Too hot for the chamber dimensions. You are asking alot of the brass to expand that much and seal a sloppy chamber.

The .45 Colt, .44 Magnum, .357 were not designed for lever-action use. To make a cylindrical case feed reliably in a lever-action some dimensional compromises are necessary to make the cylinder rise up and turn the corner. The .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40, being tapered, bottlenecked cases, support the brass much better and don't have those feeding issues as the smaller front end enters the bigger chamber easily and the tapered cartridge fits the chamber walls well, sealing the chamber so that black powder fouling doesn't leak back past the case and get into the action.

The .30-30 and .32 Winchester Special also feed sllick for the same reasons, so no chamber bulge.

[Texas by God]

Trivia question- what company first chambered the .45 Colt in a rifle? Marlin, Uberti, or ? I dont know the answer- just saying.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[hpdrifter]

I had a Rossi do that. I marked the case in the chamber where the feed ramp was. It always expanded at the feed ramp. Opened up too much.
Rossi replace the rifle.

[one-eyed fat man]

Too hot for the chamber dimensions. You are asking alot of the brass to expand that much and seal a sloppy chamber.

The .45 Colt, .44 Magnum, .357 were not designed for lever-action use. To make a cylindrical case feed reliably in a lever-action some dimensional compromises are necessary to make the cylinder rise up and turn the corner. The .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40, being tapered, bottlenecked cases, support the brass much better and don't have those feeding issues as the smaller front end enters the bigger chamber easily and the tapered cartridge fits the chamber walls well, sealing the chamber so that black powder fouling doesn't leak back past the case and get into the action.

The .30-30 and .32 Winchester Special also feed sllick for the same reasons, so no chamber bulge.

Kinda makes you think those boys in New Haven had it figured out a hundred and forty years ago. But then they weren't playing bowling with bullets dress up.

[tacotime]

So, do you think the 750-800 fps cowboy loads do not have enough pressure to fire-form the brass to the chamber and to show the case bulge in the same rifle? I might think the pressure from a cowboy load would still be enough to fire-form the brass. No?

Or maybe the brass on those not-bulged rounds was better? The bulged cases were Winchester (reloaded 1x from factory 750fps cowboy rounds) and the not-bulged cases (but at cowboy levels) were Magtech or Starline. Do you think the brass could be the difference between bulge or no bulge?

[Outpost75]

NOT a brass problem. A sloppy chamber and excessive case sizing problem.

[rking22]

I have a 45 Colt Win Low Wall trad hunter. The fired brass will let a .460 bullet drop right in! The chamber is huge in dia. I suspect your chamber is like mine, see what the id of the fired case mouth is. I neck size my brass with an odd die and shoot the .458 Gould bullet in my low wall. Was going to make a set of special brass from 7.62x54r but havent got roun tuit.I dont shoot it much other than to hunt on occasion so 20 cases would do me, for you not so likely. Kinda agravating that it is like that, mine didnt shoot "normal" 45 pistol loads worth a flip. Shoots the Gould quite well, cant remember group size as its been a long while. I still have several thou of case clearance even with the big bullet, but it cant wobble around as much in the chamber. Give yoirs a measure and see.

[cwlongshot]

I get same in one Marlin ‘94. My newer Cowboy dosent do it. So I agree generous chamber. I have shot some healthy RUGER loads pushing 300’s to 1600 to see it. Worst is brass probably won’t last as long. But I have had that rifle for over twenty years and a truck load of deer it’s harvested. Still working today.

CW

[Hickok]

Had a brand new Marlin Cowboy model in .45 Colt that did the same with all loads, from factory loads to cast loads.

Cases always came out looking like a pregnant guppie fish.

[MT Gianni]

Never use carbide dies in 45 Colt. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf See page 59. The second drawing shows a taper from .486" to .480" to .470". You can't form that with a straight die.
The good news is that brass is now sized for the base of that chamber.

[samari46]

Have Marlins in 357 mag and 44 mag, also winnies in the usual rifle calibers. Even with warm not hot loads in the 44 mag my fired cases do not show that rather large bulge in the case. I suspect that your chamber is overly large and your loaded rounds sit at the bottom of the chamber. When fired the top of the cartridge expands to fill the chamber. That's why only on one side you get the bulge. Frank

[44MAG#1]

A lot of chambers for the 45 Colt are cut to the older dimensions which is on the large size. I shot a 45 Colt SAA that a buddy had with light cowboy loads. The cartridges cases after being fire in the SAA would not go in my Ruger Vaquero. The cases fired in the Vaquero would drop in the SAA easily. Even with much higher loads in the Vaquero the cases would still drop into the SAA. My Uberti 45 colt does the same thing. NO HOT LOADS WERE FIRED in the SAA or the Uberti. Only LIGHT cowboy styled loads were. But the cases expanded to the point that they would not go into the Vaquero.
Have used carbide dies for years.
Some 45/70's do the same expansion signs even with more than safe loads.
This is just information I have given out.

[john.k]

There is also feature where straight sided cases need a small relief in the chamber so as to transition from angled upward movement to horizontal into the chamber .....without this small relief in the chamber wall ,the round would hang up as the bolt forced it in.....This is why the bulge is only in one side......Why are all the old Winchester cartridges slightly necked.?For this reason,and the 66 and 73 lifter is level with the chamber.

[tacotime]

I can see the chamber relief on the bottom.

The bulge is only on one side and does not run the full length of the case. But it still seems like the cowboy loads would still fire-form the case the same as the heavier load.

I will do some measuring.

What was the reason for not using carbide dies? Was it simply that they would likely size too small?

[Norske]

"Straight" cases aren't straight. They are tapered slightly. Look at the case dimensions in your loading manual. A carbide die sizes them straight, an all steel die sizes them tapered so they fit the chamber correctly. I have a 45ACP pistol with a generous chamber, likely cut by a new reamer whose spent cases can develop a "belt" when resized in my carbide die.

[Leoparddog]

My Rossi 92 does this. I just don't resize them all the way down anymore. I also don't reload them more than a couple of times before they go in the trash.

[44MAG#1]

Please take this in a spirit of kindness not of being mean. But, this is a situation of over thinking. ALL cases expand to some degree if the load has enough power to do much of anything other than just falling through a target paper.
As I said in my post some 45 Colt chambers are cut to the LARGE size of the specs. You will get more expansion in thise chambers and will see it more readily than chambers cut to smaller sides of the specs.
As I said concerning the COLT SAA I fired with cowboy loads and the cases wouldnt go in a Ruger Vaquero. The Vaquero with much hotter loads would still drop into the SAA chambers simply because the chambers are cut on the smaller side of the specs in the Ruger. Hence less expansion even with higher pressures. The cases showed less expansion too.
Just dont over think this situation. I have been reloading at least 49 years and am not new to these situations.
I wont tell of the loads Ive run in the Redhawk 45 Colt that the cases show less signs than the OP's photos show simply because the chambers are cut smaller in specs. I will say this, the bullets were 415 grains though.

[Leoparddog]

I agree with 44Mag on the chamber comment. I also have a Redhawk in 45LC along with my Rossi. I have found that brass run through the Rossi will not easily chamber when reloaded into the Ruger since the Ruger chambers are cut much closer to spec. So I typically segregate my brass for the two guns.

[tacotime]

No offense but with Outpost warning of possible brass failure and a KABOOM I'm going to stop short of the "overthinking" category. There may be some normalcy in a lever chamber having a recess at the entrance, but since the brass from this one doesn't show a bulge on cowboy loads but does on heavier loads I think at a minimum it does point to stress on the brass and caution needed with the heavier loads, with reusing of brass from the heavier loads and avoiding over-working the brass.

[44MAG#1]

Erring on the side of caution is always best. No one said any different. I was just telling you of MY experience only and nothing different. There are as many different experiences on here as they are members. Many right many wrong and many somewhere between the two points. Any time you work brass you begin work hardening the brass. Less expansion less sizing down and the longer lasting the case. Just like if you flare the case mouth and then crimp the less you flare it and the lighter you crimp the longer the case will last without a case mouth crack. naturally the less presure one runs the less expansion. That goes without saying.
But sizing those cases a few times isnt going to do any harm on the normality of things. I have had case body cracks in new cases. Who knows, but based on my experience only I would reload cases like that a "few" times and not worry about it. Now I wouldnt over do it but I wouldnt be afraid to. One must always do what one feels is right for himself. I do.
I was just actually explaining why the cases in some 45 Colt chamberings looks like your sample case. It is due to how the manufacturing company holds their tolerances.
That is all.



No offense but with Outpost warning of possible brass failure and a KABOOM I'm going to stop short of the "overthinking" category. There may be some normalcy in a lever chamber having a recess at the entrance, but since the brass from this one doesn't show a bulge on cowboy loads but does on heavier loads I think at a minimum it does point to stress on the brass and caution needed with the heavier loads, with reusing of brass from the heavier loads and avoiding over-working the brass.

[tacotime]

I'm with you there and good advice.

I will note that I have now seen brass fired in a Win 94 from this 45LC, and 357 Mag and a 44 Mag, and they all have a one-side bulge near the rim, but not as obvious as the 45LC bulge.

Does anyone think a case crack near the rim that occurs during firing a standard published load could cause a Kaboom on a correctly made Win 94?

[44MAG#1]

No. Unless something else was terribly wrong. I have had case splits in the body with fairly heavy loads with new brass as I said previously.
Time to to load yourself some 45 Colt ammo and have fun.


I'm with you there and good advice.

I will note that I have now seen brass fired in a Win 94 from this 45LC, and 357 Mag and a 44 Mag, and they all have a one-side bulge near the rim, but not as obvious as the 45LC bulge.

Does anyone think a case crack near the rim that occurs during firing a standard published load could cause a Kaboom on a correctly made Win 94?

[Outpost75]

I'm with you there and good advice.

I will note that I have now seen brass fired in a Win 94 from this 45LC, and 357 Mag and a 44 Mag, and they all have a one-side bulge near the rim, but not as obvious as the 45LC bulge.

Does anyone think a case crack near the rim that occurs during firing a standard published load could cause a Kaboom on a correctly made Win 94?

A crack in the K, L or M regions adjacent the junction of the case body with the solid head and through the solid head itself into the primer pocket are always dangerous because if the case is not fully supported, they result in a ductile fracture mechanism which results in a large gas loss and possible rupture with fragmentation of a case, which is most likely when the case has been repeated expanded and excessively resized, resulting in work hardening, which may induce brittle failure, rather than ductile fracture.

Cracks well up the case body are less dangerous because the body wall is supported by the chamber.

This is the same mechanism which causes the well-known "Glock KaBoom" when bulged cases are repeatedly reloaded and corrected with "bulge buster" dies.

[44MAG#1]

There you have it. I am wrong. oh well.

[tacotime]

Well I wouldn't say you were wrong 44, just that he was talking about that critical case head area failure which I really think is fairly removed from the bulge area on this particular case. That bulge begins gradually about 1/8 inch forward of the case head. So hopefully if it split it would maybe go in the latter category of split and be supported enough by the chamber.

But I also issue the disclaimer that I, like Sargeant Shultz, "know nothing."

[FLINTNFIRE]

The bulge buster dies should be thrown away as they put brass from people who have no moral compass back in the supply chain , I know got some once from some one here on cast boolits , and had a boom not a full blown kaboom as was not in a unsupported chamber like glock and s&w and others and bulge was on different brands of brass and any brass with a smile or wrinkle needs tossed , my colt clones and winchester/uberti do not leave out of round or odd shapes on my brass , as to that it sounds like a sloppy reamed chamber , and once again if your brass swells to much toss it or use it yourself but do not pass it on in a sale like some do , and I will not all smiley faced bulge busted is tossed and crushed

[44MAG#1]

Not trying to hijack the thread but as the owner of a few Glocks I think I know something about them.
Mine, which are Gen4's do have fully supported chambers including my Gen4 40 S&W. There is a difference between a fully supported, a chamber that has an unsupported area and a larger chamber and Glocks do have large chambers. 40 S&W Glocks at one time did have an unsupported area at the feed ramp. AT ONE TIME. There are still many out there that does because people still own them and shoot them. Before anyone panics research and study.
All I have to say on this subject as no doubt I am wrong but, there are 45 Colts with the chamber cut to the larger side of the specs out there.
If one doesn't like that aspect one needs to try to find out which ones and avoid that brand.
Now have a good day. Shoot well.

[Castaway]

Norse, the SAAMI spec for the 45 Colt cartridge is cylindrical, not tapered.

[Larry Gibson]

Never use carbide dies in 45 Colt. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf See page 59. The second drawing shows a taper from .486" to .480" to .470". You can't form that with a straight die.
The good news is that brass is now sized for the base of that chamber.

MT Gianni is correct. You M94 chamber, as many are, are cut to SAAI spec's. Carbide dies size the case as a cylinder which makes the case too small in diameter at the expansion web. When loads with sufficient psi expand the case to fit the chamber you get what you have. No, most "cowboy action" loads do not have enough psi to expand the cases to fit the chamber. Get an older steel die as Outpost75 recommends. Or, if the loads are to be used in the M94 only, you might back off the carbide FL sizer to just size the case to the depth of the seated bullet. Will give you a sort of looking bottle neck cartridge but should feed and chamber five. That will not over work the brass so a "ka-boom" as mentioned won't happen if the case head separates on firing.

[oldblinddog]

I’m another that had a Marlin .45 Colt that did this. I only fired a few factory loads in it, discovered this issue, and sent it back. This is a bad chamber.

This was in the late 80’s/early 90’s. It was a JM barrel.

[Baltimoreed]

My older 45colt 1894 Marlin cowboy ltd creates bulged brass with my cas loads, always has. They size back down and reload fine, have had cases split [usually nickel] over the years but never a real failure. Never had a Winchester pistol caliber lever so I don’t know what’s normal on these. My Uberti 1873s don’t bulge brass.

[mnewcomb59]

I size my 45 colt in 2 stages. First step is size whole case with the large factory crimp die with crimp backed off. Second step is neck size about 1/3 of the way down with the smaller carbide resize/decap die. 3rd step is decap with universal decapper. This leaves little bottle neck cases that don't get worked as much and last a lot longer. Chambers also stay much cleaner with light loads after they have been fireformed to the chamber taper.

[GBertolet]

My Marlin 45 Colt, has a sloppy chamber issue also. Cases would split down the middle, after a few reloadings. I could see a definate bulge around the middle of the case. I started just sizing about 3/8" down, just enough to grip the bullet properly, with a carbide sizer. Problem solved. I can shoot many times before a FL sizing is necessiary. I have a steel sizer, that I lapped out slightly, which gives me enough reduction to work fine. I do believe the steel die (RCBS) is factory tapered. I do shoot traditional 45 Colt loadings though.

[littlejack]

I've posted my procedure for reloading and feeding my two 45 Colt chambered firearms before. So, with a lot of members reposting their remedies for the bulged cases, I will again, as well. It certainly seems there is a lot of "to do" over a very minor issue, (being the bulged case). I use a carbide sizing die, as well as a crimp die with the crimping sleeve, and a carbide ring at the mouth. I partial size only, enough to hold the boolit. The de-capping pin is extended out far enough to allow de-capping. I started reloading for my Uberti SAA revolver about 2009. Everything went well. Then, earlier this year I bought a Winchester 94AE Trapper. I wanted to use my reloaded ammunition in both my revolver and the Winchester Trapper carbine, without using two different reloading techniques, or having to segrigate ammunition. After firing rounds in the Trapper, the cases would not chamber (bulged cases) in the revolver chambers. I didn't want to full length resize the case all the way. Hence, the partial sizing. Using a standard seat and crimp die did nothing to the bulge, so the Trapper fired cartridge still would not chamber the revolver. Hence, my using the crimping die with the sliding crimp sleeve and carbide ring at the mouth. When crimping, the carbide ring sizes the bulge down just enough to allow the cartridge to chamber in all the revolver, but not as much a a sizer die. So, there is no real issue. Once your dies are set up, you re-load your ammunition as any other. My powder of choice is a good dose of Alliant Herco. My boolit weights are 255-265 grain. I've loaded some cases many times, with no splits, not even at the case mouth. No issues here. Just load'm, shoot'm, and enjoy. No big deal.
Regards

[Good Cheer]

Could trimming back thicker walled mag brass be of use in combatting the bulge?

[Good Cheer]

I asked a brass producer about this. The answer was that the internal taper on the Casull brass could be so long that if it was trimmed back to .45 Colt length that the taper might interfere with bullet seating. i was surprised at that but it answered the suspicion my question was based upon.
And, as large as Model 1909 chambers are it makes me drop back and say, "Ah ha!", because maybe the added metal thickness could work just right.
Wish I had a few Casull brass to try it out.