Air cool vs water cool

[Drew P]

I’ve always water dropped bullets, made sense to me because air dropping a hot bullet seems like it would cause deformation at the very least. It’s very easy to drop in bucket and let them pile up at the bottom. But seems like a lot of air droppers here. So why?

[Sig556r]

I PC, so don't wanna contaminate prior to tumbling. I water-quench after baking tho.

[mdi]

I have never cared for water quenching. I now use a small towel folded and placed in a cake pan. None of my bullets are damaged. I have also accidentally dropped new bullets right out of the mold on the hard bench top. No damage. Maybe because I never water dropped sinkers when I was a teenager, and when I started casting bullets pre-web and read nothing about quenching. My shop (casting and reloading shed) has no running water and while it may seem a minor inconvenience to some, I don't want to tote a 5 gal bucket of water into my shop and I normally don't want water around my casting/reloading area. I have always "hardened" my alloy by mixing, producing a harder alloy.

[Dimner]

Same here... I air drop on a towel in a dollar store cake or jelly roll pan. I drop in the same place on the towel every time. When I have a dozen or two dropped, I lift one end of the towel to roll the previous dropped bullets to the rear of the towel, and cast a dozen or two more. Repeat until I am shocked at how many bullets I have made because my brain was off thinking about other things while I was casting. At some point with a mold you are familiar with, casting becomes all muscle memory and my brain drifts. Like how this reply drifted into other subjects...

[Outpost75]

Water dropped bullets are too hard and don't shoot as well in standard-pressure revolver loads.

I have no need for "hard" bullets and am another one of those old fuds who prefer drop their bullets onto a folded towel for gentle cooling and easy visual inspection.

[onelight]

I’ve always water dropped bullets, made sense to me because air dropping a hot bullet seems like it would cause deformation at the very least. It’s very easy to drop in bucket and let them pile up at the bottom. But seems like a lot of air droppers here. So why?
I air drop on a towel draped in the bucket so the bullets roll down the towel to the pile at the bottom.

[kevin c]

I also don't need hard boolits for my application. More to the point, like Outpost, I like to eyeball the casts to check for defects and to monitor mold temp (to much frosting tells me to slow down).

I drop onto folded towels on top of a tilt board. I keep brushing the inspected boolits to one side until the pile gets too big, then I just tilt everything into the pan under it and start building the pile again.

[largom]

Water dropped bullets are too hard and don't shoot as well in standard-pressure revolver loads.

I have no need for "hard" bullets and am another one of those old fuds who prefer drop their bullets onto a folded towel for gentle cooling and easy visual inspection.

Same here. I air cool my rifle boolits as well.

[Thumbcocker]

Air cool mostly but I do water drop for the M1.

[Conditor22]

https://i.imgur.com/CmmjY2S.png

https://i.imgur.com/uKuGZK6.png

[bmortell]

ive only ever gotten dents water dropping because I cant control if they land on eachother unless I built something to go in the bucket to slow them down mid water before they hit eachother. air cooled I have several feet of space to drop them on my soft material so I drop a few casts around the center then push them off to the sides while im waiting for sprue to set or whatever. when I want hard I water drop after PC using NON non stick foil so they stay on my tray when I throw it in water and they still don't hit eachother.

[stubshaft]

I can cast faster when water dropping and have had no problems getting great accuracy with normal pressure loads, nor have I had any problems PCing boolits.

[Winger Ed.]

ive only ever gotten dents water dropping because I cant control if they land on eachother unless I built something to go in the bucket .

Back in the old days, it was common to take air dropped boolits, bake them to a certain temp.
then dump them in a bucket of water to temper/harden them.

Someone came along and dropped straight from the mold into a bucket of water to shorten the process.
and that idea caught on.

Then the issue of dents came up.

One guy's solution was to cut up a couple of the big car washing sponges, or use a hand full
of dish washing sponges to float on the surface.


The boolit hits the wet sponge, cools & hardens,
then rolls off to land on the bottom of the bucket-- with no dents.

[Kraschenbirn]

I used to water drop boolits into a five-gallon bucket with a 2" foam pad in the bottom. Never had any damage issues with even the heaviest boolits. These days, since I took up PC, I air cool everything, dropping onto a beach towel folded down into a 16"x24" pad right next to my Mag 20 pot. Using this, I can drop 525 gr. RNs, cast from 30/1, without any noticeable dings or dents so I doubt if anything lighter would be distorted.

Bill

[GregLaROCHE]

I drop mine into water because I got dents and worse otherwise. When everything is right and I’m in the groove, I don’t want to stop to move boolits around, so they don’t land on each other. I use a four gallon bucket and have never had problems with dents. The one drawback is you can’t throw your culs back into the pot. I PC often too. I usually don’t PC the same day and have no problems. If you’re in a hurry, you can always put them in your oven for a few minutes. They say warm boolits coat easier.

[lightman]

I've never seen the need to water drop. Like most of the others, I drop the hot bullets on an old folded up towel. The only damage that I have had is when a stray bullet gets away and hits the floor!

I don't need the hardness and don't want the hassle dealing with water.

[Drew P]

I wish I’d made this a poll but too late. It’s interesting to me that dents are a leading reason NOT to water drop, since that is the only reason I do it. I’m not after the hardness per se, because I ice drop after coating anyway, which may or may not harden. I should give up on antimony and just use the right alloys to begin with but hey, that’s part of the fun isn’t it. But I’m wondering how you can keep from damaging buckets unless you’re cooling them a lot more than I do. I would think that the temp of them hitting a rag and bouncing off each other could damage.
As far as the water, I use a large bucket, maybe 4 gal, and I keep the water level high, so the boolits are falling through water at least 5” or so which gives enough time to come way down in temp, probably below 200° before they hit the pile. I have to admit that it would be nice to be able to eyeball them all as they come out to monitor for flashing issues or temp issues.

[gwpercle]

1.) I don't like the water mess .
2.) I size and lube on a Lyman 450 ..hard boolits are harder to size .
3.) Elmer Keith didn't say you should do it .
4.) He did say fit was more important than hardness and most people used way to hard an alloy than needed .
" for regular loads : 1 part tin / 20 parts lead was best and for
heavy magnum loads : 1 part tin / 15 parts lead is hard enough . "
Gary

[megasupermagnum]

I'm still torn between water dropping or quenching out of an oven. I only use either oven quenching or water dropping for hardening bullets, not as a shortcut. I actually find air cooling easier. It certainly doesn't warp bullets.

The problem I always had with water dropping was damaged bullets. I don't care if you have 10 feet of water. Lead sinks fast, and if the base falls on the edge of another bullet, you just ruined that bullet. I assume most people just look the other way, as they will still shoot out of the gun with no other problems besides reduction of accuracy. Gas checked bullets might get some leeway here. If you are air cooling, you are presumably dropping onto a T shirt or towel. You have total control. Don't just stack 1000 bullets on top of each other. I've got a nice big area I lay a towel out, and I can easily get 1000 bullets on it, caliber dependent. One person said they don't like to move bullets around. While you do have to do that to keep a clear dumping area, I haven't found it to be any bother at all myself.

As for water dropping in a 5 gallon bucket, I've tried draping a towel over the top. I've tried cut up sponges. I've tried a towel on the bottom. None of them worked for me. The fact is the damage is caused by bullet hitting other bullets. With water dropping, you have almost no control after they hit the water. The way I currently do it, is I found a square tote, not huge, probably holds 5-8 gallons. Now the trick is that I prop one end up. I drop bullets on the high end, and they hit the bottom with no damage. The bulk of them then roll to the low end, out of harms way. I don't use a towel or anything. The plastic does not hurt them.

For quenching out of an oven, the biggest problem I've had was keeping a consistent temperature. I use a wire basket to hold the bullets, but if I just put that in there, the elements melt the top and bottom bullets when they kick on, even if the overall oven temp is below 480 degrees. My work around so far has been to set the basket on aluminum foil, and then put another aluminum foil on the top. The problem then is the heat doesn't seem to radiate around, and into the bullets. A convection oven would work much better. There are numerous benefits to oven quenching. 1. you can size the bullets whenever you want before you quench. Although I have had no problems sizing water dropped bullets, many claim problems can arise if you wait more than a day or two to size. Also there is a theory that sizing work softens a water dropped bullet, but I don't worry about that. 2. you can adjust the hardness of the bullet. You can get a little more hardening water dropping by adding ice to the bucket. I use snow. With oven quenching you can make a softer bullet than water dropping, or harder if you wish. 3. You can avoid any bullet damage during casting by dropping on a towel. Since I put the bullets in a basket in the oven, I just dunk that whole basket in the water.

There are a few advantages to air cooling, but the main one of course is that it allows the softest possible bullet. The one and only drawback I'm aware of is that bullets tend to have a less consistent hardness from bullet to bullet. This is bizarre to me, but multiple tests have shown that quenched bullets are more consistent. Over time air cooled bullets stabilize their hardness, and maintain it for decades. Air cooled bullet hardness never really varies what I consider a significant amount. Quenched bullets on the other hand are a little more dynamic. They quickly reach most of their hardness in a few days, then continue to rise for a few months. Don't quote me, I forget the exact number. After that they slowly soften. As far as I'm concerned, there is no significant reduction in hardness for 10 years or so. All that said, some of the most accurate bullets of all time have been air cooled. Hardness is not nearly as important as a perfectly cast bullet.

I use all three techniques, depending on what I'm doing. I mainly air cool, but I water drop for a few high pressure handguns, and rifle bullets. The big thing bullet hardness gets you is that it keeps the bullet from deforming during firing. Bullet design plays a big part in this, but it still comes down to the less a bullet deforms, the better it will fly.

[Duckiller]

I air cool all of my boolits. I must cast slower than other people. I Drop my freahly cast boolits into a cardboard box and have had no problem or dents. Don't try to get boolits immediately out of mold.

[lar45]

When I want a harder bullet I water drop, I use a big sponge floating in a 5 gal bucket of water. I drop the bullets onto the sponge, they hiss and cool, then roll off into the bucket. I do not get dents this way. when I first started and just dropped straight into the bucket, then I would get dents.

When I want a softer bullet, I drop them onto a towel. I start on the left and make a row, then roll them all to the back of the towel and start a new row so I don't drop them onto each other.

[Mal Paso]

Air Heads! I water drop everything!

Except hollowpoints which drop an inch or so onto several layers of old towel. I get zero dings on air cooled and a very few on water dropped.

[charlie b]

I have air dropped for decades. I think the differences in bullet damage may be due to the height of the drop more than air or water.

I drop directly onto a folded towel in a pan, height 2-3". Never had an issue with damage from the 'drop' even when bullets land on each other.

If I want to heat treat I do it as a separate step to make sure it is done at the proper temps and times for the alloy. But, I rarely do that. If I want a harder bullet I use a harder alloy.

[454PB]

I water drop sometimes. I use a big ice cream container that holds about a gallon of water. I fold a towel and put it on the bottom of the container, then place a 1 pound ingot in the middle to hold it in place. I've never found a dented boolit.

[Thin Man]

For most of my general purpose casting I will drop boolits on a folded towel. That has worked out well enough for me over the years. Then came the challenge of shrinking my group sizes from a Savage Sporter 25-20. Cast (air cooled) and j-word bullets were OK, but not good enough to suit me. I changed several procedures such as: water dropping, towel drying these boolits, sizing within 1 hour of casting, sizing to .259" (80 grain boolits from a former group buy) in a honed up .244 sizing die cut to .259", careful selection of alloy plus tin in the pot. All this gave me the tightest groups I had ever seen this rifle create. This boolit has 2 loob grooves and I pack only the bottom groove. When the weather warms enough to justify the time to set it up I will chronograph these loads, hoping to track progress with group size and velocity. Favorite powder for this rifle and boolit is IMR4198 for smallest group size, but with more testing that may change.

[6bg6ga]

Years ago I water quenched my bullets and they were harder for months and then the hardness seems/measures just like the air cooled bullets. Seems like there is a period where they measure harder and then return back to normal. Didn't see any advantage just made me skiddish about having water near the molten lead.

[winelover]

Air cool everything but high velocity rifle bullets. Those get oven heat treated, for more consistency, than water dropped. If you think about it, not all bullets, drop out of the mold at the same rate. Those that occasionally stick, will not be the same temperature as the ones that don't, when water dropping. This can lead to variance with the BHN.

I drop all my freshly cast bullets on a silicon gel mat, the size of a cookie sheet. Picked it upon Amazon. It is ribbed, wich provides extra cushion.

Winelover

[Texas by God]

I prefer to just drop them into a box with an old towel on the bottom. I’ve water dropped them but didn’t see benefits so I quit doing it.

[Shuz]

[QUOTE=winelover;4832647]Air cool everything but high velocity rifle bullets. Those get oven heat treated, for more consistency, than water dropped. If you think about it, not all bullets, drop out of the mold at the same rate. Those that occasionally stick, will not be the same temperature as the ones that don't, when water dropping. This can lead to variance with the BHN.

Winelover nailed it with this post for me!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Air cool everything but high velocity rifle bullets. Those get oven heat treated, for more consistency, than water dropped. If you think about it, not all bullets, drop out of the mold at the same rate. Those that occasionally stick, will not be the same temperature as the ones that don't, when water dropping. This can lead to variance with the BHN.

...SNIP

I agree with Winelover.
The other factor he doesn't mention, is the water warms as more boolits are dropped in. Oven heat treating, all the boolits go into the water at the same time, water is the same temp, which makes for uniform hardening.

Also, I cast inside and I originally set my casting area for air drop on fluffy towel. To setup for water drop isn't really an option, without redesigning the bench area, which I wouldn't want to do...plus the extra hassle of filling a pail with water and then drying the boolits after the session...while those are small things, they are small things I don't have to do.

[mdi]

I'm wondering how dents occur when water dropping. Does the impact of the bullet against the surface of the water dent bullets? Are bullets traveling fast enough through the water to dent them when they hit bottom? No offense intended but "denting bullets when water dropping" sounds illogical to me... :roll:

[kevin c]

Maybe I need a better sense of how big a dent or nick has to be in order affect accuracy or function as opposed to just being aesthetically displeasing.

A related question is about alloy hardness, its effects on surface defects, and whether that affects accuracy. Harder stands up to rough handling better, no? I've read that commercial casters use hardball alloy just for that reason. I mean, straight out of the mold and onto the towel, my casts of 95-3-2 alloy show perfect surfaces (thank you, Miha!). But that only lasts as long as they don't knock together. They're soon poured together in a pan, counted into and poured into batches, tumbled vigorously at least twice to be coated with HiTek and tossed together on a screen to dry, rebatched for baking and then when sized dropped into another bucket. They take a beating, in other words, and their "complexions", aren't nearly as pretty at the end (save for the "makeup" ;^]).

The accuracy seems fine for my application, but maybe I'll experiment with hard and soft alloys to see what happens to the surfaces, and maybe find a way to coat with less "trauma" to see if there is any accuracy change.

[Winger Ed.]

Does the impact of the bullet against the surface of the water dent bullets? :

I don't think so.
I've always thought they can get a dent from a long drop into the water, and then hitting each other on the bottom.
Their trip down through the water will slow them down some, but not enough to prevent a ding.

That's why it helps for them to land on a sponge or something at the surface.
If the water is deep, a towel on the bottom of the bucket will help too.

I've done that before with heavier boolits, and after a few dozen, pull the towel up
with a wire to pour off the boolits, and let it settle back to the bottom on top of them.
And so on, until I'm done casting.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm wondering how dents occur when water dropping. Does the impact of the bullet against the surface of the water dent bullets? Are bullets traveling fast enough through the water to dent them when they hit bottom? No offense intended but "denting bullets when water dropping" sounds illogical to me... :roll:

So I take it you have never water dropped? Lead bullets don't flutter to the bottom like a feather. If the water slows them down, it isn't much. All it takes is one to fall base first onto another bullet.

If you don't believe a ding in a bullet base is detrimental to accuracy, go ahead and put an equal size ding in your rifles crown.

[bmortell]

I'm wondering how dents occur when water dropping. Does the impact of the bullet against the surface of the water dent bullets? Are bullets traveling fast enough through the water to dent them when they hit bottom? No offense intended but "denting bullets when water dropping" sounds illogical to me... :roll:

they get dents on the square base corner which I really want to avoid, you have a hot soft boolit falling corner first through some air and water then the corner impacts another boolit that is already cooled and hard on the bottom. possibly impacting it corner to corner since a lot of designs are very squared off with the nose base and driving bands all being sharp corners. a soft corner hitting a hardened corner puts all the force in one spot and produces dents easily

[mdi]

Yes, a clean, square base is essential to accurate bullets. I just cannot see how a bullet, of "normal" alloy (BHN of 10-12) dropped into water will dent while the same bullet dropped onto a folded towel is unmarred...

But I'm not condemning a "water boy" and will remain an "air head", and get consistent, ding-free bullets... :bigsmyl2:

[bmortell]

the bottom of a bucket covered in hardened boolit corners sticking up is not at all comparable to a folded soft towel

[megasupermagnum]

It's pretty simple. A towel can't damage a bullet. A deep bucket full of hardened, sharp edged bullets does.

[Land Owner]

If PERFECTION (or a close as we can get) in air or water cooled boolits is a concern, then WHY drop them into a pile in the first place? Drop one on a towel. Move it. Drop one in water. Move it. Or other methods (as previously described) that work suitably well. No dings. Work it into your cadence.

Water around a hot mold into which molten lead is introduced could produce a Bad Day (we can start another "Bad Day" thread - and not hijack this one). No "brain drift" while handling 650+ degree F materials (mold, pot, contents, etc.). Stuff happens. Safety first. Care and attention always - please!

I air dry.

[bmortell]

right, I just think its easier to not drop them on the same spot when air cooling cause I have 12 feet of bench to drop boolits on

[FLINTNFIRE]

So I started casting outside with small fire and round balls for blaock powder pistols all air cooled on whatever rags were available , then on to pistol bullets and a coleman stove dipping and air cooled then I got a 10 lb lee bottom pour pot and pistol bullets mainly 45 230 grain lee tumble lube out of a 2 cavity air cooled then read about water dropping so ok well it was ok but unneeded so as molds increased and number of cavity I went back to air cooled , then I got tired of dropping on a towel and made a chute with a landing at the top , cast drop on several soft layers and let them work there way down the slope on cloth to a catch basin made from old fridge drawer covered in soft cloth , do not notice any dents dings or marks when removing and sorting before coating , one thing I do like about coating is it acts as another inspection step and catch some defects before loading bench , as for hard I have seen wheelweight 45 slugs that never deformed a bit when shot into wood .

[trapper9260]

I started out with cast fishing sinkers from my dad taught me and my brother , air cool so I see no need to do it any different then I was taught , beside like other stated do not need the extra hard boolits ,I use a old cotton rag to drop my on .

[Shiloh]

Water.
If it's wet, it isn't hot.

Shiloh

[Land Owner]

Any water above ~115 degrees will scald skin, and after that - though wet, seems pretty hot. If you water drop, you know your melt is still plenty hot when the 5-gal. plastic bucket has boolit-induced indentations in the bottom, even pin hole burns though, although it is over 1/2 filled with water. A towel in the bottom is recommended. Don't ask how I know...

[megasupermagnum]

Any water above ~115 degrees will scald skin, and after that - though wet, seems pretty hot. If you water drop, you know your melt is still plenty hot when the 5-gal. plastic bucket has boolit-induced indentations in the bottom, even pin hole burns though, although it is over 1/2 filled with water. A towel in the bottom is recommended. Don't ask how I know...

You are dropping into 115 degree water? I use ice water. The most I ever water dropped at once was around 400. That amount never melted the snow I had dumped in. No bucket I've used has ever had a melted spot on the bottom.

Also everybody's water heater goes up to 120 degrees, which is reduced from the old days. It is not scalding.

[Walks]

Never had ANY Problems water dropping bullets. No dents, I water drop into a 5gal. bucket. With 4 gal. of water, I put a wet towel over the top of the bucket with a 4" hole cut into the center. The towel contacts the water. Bullets hit the wet towel and roll down thru the hole. I think as soon as the bullet hits that sopping wet towel it cools enough not to dent.

I've dropped bullets into a bucket and immediately reached in and picked them out. Cool to the touch. Used the same white bucket for 15+ years,not a single mark in the bottom. Turn it upside down on an old barbeque grill to dry and then put a lid on it. Clean as the day I started with it.

To each their own. Whatever works for you can't be wrong.

[Land Owner]

You are dropping into 115 degree water?

In context, I was responding to Shiloh.

[bobthenailer]

I water drop all my cast bullets from the mould , been doing it that way for 30+ years and get excellent accuracy from all firearms that I owen from 380 to 454 casull and a few rifles as well from low, normal and high velocity loads
over 50 firearms and about 1/2 a million bullets are my proof

[Drew P]

Now the water droppers are coming on strong!! Lol.

[fatelvis]

Water dropped bullets are too hard and don't shoot as well in standard-pressure revolver loads.

I have no need for "hard" bullets and am another one of those old fuds who prefer drop their bullets onto a folded towel for gentle cooling and easy visual inspection.

I agree with Outpost. The amount of hardness is very obvious if you size freshly cast boolits.

[fredj338]

Unless I want a harder bullet, water dropping seems more of a PITA. I air cool, drop onto folded trowel. When the towel area gets full, transfer to cardboard box. Keep casting. No drying after dropping, no water splashes or bending over or anything else.

[David2011]

Almost all of my cast boolits are used for USPSA matches. I air cool and drop them all into a pile but they only fall two inches max. I don’t cut the sprue until the lead is firm. Post drop handling is far more likely to damage them than dropping from the mold with the alloy I use. I can’t tell any difference between the accuracy of boolits I cast and j-words.

[Chad5005]

im a odd ball I guess,i drop on a thick folded soaking wet towel on a large cookie sheet

[Chad5005]

257305. My setup before I got my deep sided cookie sheet

[cb4017]

I air drop on to a folded towel and never had a problem. I did learn early on do NOT pick up a bullet to inspect it after dropping.. I only did that once.

I did try water dropping once with a towel folded up in the bottom of a water filled 5 gallon bucket. I don't recall any dents or deformed bullets.

[C.F.Plinker]

I put a heavy towel in a 1 gal can which has had the large side cut out of it and is just over 3/4 full of water. Most of my casting is from range scrap which is about 8 BHN. Water quenching brings that up to 11-12 BHN which is fine for my 45 ACP, 38 Special, and 41 Magnum mid-range loads. When they start to pile up in one area of the can I just rake them to the outer edge of the towel. So far there have not been any dented boolits.

[GregLaROCHE]

Don’t forget if you are using pure lead, water quenching shouldn’t harden it.

[fredj338]

im a odd ball I guess,i drop on a thick folded soaking wet towel on a large cookie sheet
My only thought on that is you get a surface hardening on one side that cools rapidly & the other side is a bit softer. I have no idea how that would affect accuracy, probably none.

[Chad5005]

I may need to check hardness side to side,most of my casting is pistol boolits and I haven't noticed anything odd but worth checking into.Thanks

[GregLaROCHE]

Those who say they get deformed boolits from dropping into water, are you using pure lead that would deform more easily than a harder alloy? Do you think the boolits deform, because they are not cooled enough by the time they reach the bottom?

[Dapaki]

One thing to mention is that when towel dropping and keeping 'warm' boolits in a pile, they will not end up with the same hardness with the same lot of lead. Think of the saw dust cooling method and how soft lead becomes. Towel drop and leave them in a pile and they also get pretty soft. Let that entire pile fully cool and test their hardness and you will probably fine the hardness is all over the place.

[Aunegl]

I've been water-dropping since the early 80s. My mentor was a lead shop foreman at a copper mine. I learned a little bit about mixing alloys and where to place a water bucket when dropping.