IMR 4350 , can it be used for cast ?

[Johnch]

I was loading jacketed rounds for the 30/06 the other night and 4350 is supper accurate in my rifle

I am going to load some reduced cast loads later for the 308 and was cleaning out the powder measure and putting the 4350 jug away before getting out an other powder

It got me to thinking
I never remember seeing cast loads for 4350
Some where I remember reading 4350 can do wacky things if loaded to light

Like "SEE" :groner:

Is my memory corect ?
As I have a fair amount of 4350 and not a lot of 4895

But I don't want to mess up

John

[felix]

4350 has been notorious for SEE's, probably because like yourself you have plenty around for condoms and it is hard to resist. Don't use it for any kind of reduced load, unless the reduced load calls for a case full. OK for 30-30, etc. ... felix

[Scrounger]

As Felix said, you can use it for a case full load with a cast bullet, it is very similar to WC 860 or 870 or 8700. Your velocity will not be as high but neither will your pressure.

[Bullshop]

Scrounger
Check your burn rate chart. 4350 is faster than all the powders you mentioned. That would give it higher pressure and velocity than those mentioned, not lower. Lets be safe!
BIC/BS

[Scrounger]

I am well aware of the burning rates. In the .30-06 or .308 I seriously doubt you could get enough into the case to have excess pressure. My .30-06 load fills the case well up into the neck and is compressed.

[Bullshop]

OK thats good that you know. Still if I see something that may lead the ignorant into trouble I will bring it to attention. To me at least your post was misleading. It sounded as though 4530 could be subsistuted for the other far slower powders that were mentioned.
In a 30/06 volume case it is possible to reach dangerous pressure with 4350 but the other powders are so much slower that it is not likely. Perhaps not intentionaly but the wording in the post sounded as though 4350 would be slower if as said would produce lower pressure and velocity when in fact is very much faster and will produce higher pressure and velocity given equal weight charges.
Sorry Scrounger I am not picking on you but just thought I saw the possibility for someone to be led into the red zone. My sincear appologies to you and all if I am mistake.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Scrounger]

It's marginal to say the least in that caliber, it's not one I would shoot cast in .30-06 with. You are quite right to hoist a flag. I have used a case full of 4350 with a cast bullet in the .30-30 case and it worked well.

[Larry Gibson]

johnch

In my recent RPM threshold tests IMR4350 was one of the slower powders selected for 100% loading density. The bullet was with 311291 in the .308W. With IMR4350 100% loading density is 46 gr +/- a gr or so. With 100% loading density the 46 gr load of IMR4350 under the 311291 (177 gr) gave 2525 fps and 50,200 psi(M43) out of my 24" barrel with 10" twist. Accuracy at 100 yards for 10 shots was 3.77". Of course I was looking for 2500+ fps in that test so I started with 90% loading density and experience no measurement of any pressure spike of indication of SEE indicators on the M43 Oehler PBL. Accuracy with the starting load of 41 gr wasn't much better even though velocity was less. The reason for this was inconsistant ignition. I did not use a dacron filler with these test loads and it probably would have helped the ignition. If you want accuracy loads down in the 1800-2000 fps range I don't think IMR4350 or any of the 4350 powders are a good choice and I certainly would not use it.

Larry Gibson

[NoDakJak]

About fifteen years ago I got to see a pre 64, Model 70 that was chambered to 3006 that certainly made a lasting impression. The owner had been training his kids and used a severely reduced load of IMR 4350 with a 150 grain jacketed bullet. They recieved a lot more education than they had planned. When it blew up the reciever split on top and bottom and the entire left side of the reciever was wrapped almost 180 degrees around with the left side of the reciever ring against the bolt stop. What I thought interesting was that the the right side of the reciever was still straight and the bolt remained in its normal locked position. The barrel was not blown away but simply fell onto the bench. Sure glad that I wasn't the person pulling that trigger. Neil

[JeffinNZ]

41gr under a 220gr bullet in my .303 SMLE shoots like a house on fire at 2000fps.

[45 2.1]

Don't go under 80% free case capacity with any load. In the smaller cases you should get good velocity and accuracy with it under these conditions. In the larger cases, use ground poly buffer for a filler to occupy all the case volume and compress the buffer while seating the boolit. It works quite well doing this. Pay atention to data as the buffer reduces actual case capacity and the case acts like a smaller case. You can overload some cases doing this.

[hydraulic]

I've been using the BOB S recommended 41 grs. 4831 under the Lee 195 gr. bullet. No problems with cycling my M1 and I'm getting under 100 fps extreme spread. 4350 and 4831 are pretty close in burning rate, so I'm beginning to feel a little nervous in light of the above posts.

[quasi]

I have found H-4350 TO WORK GREAT in the .303 British with 180-210 cast bullets.

[atr]

Ive been using 4350 for years in my 06 for both cast and jacketed bullets. I load the 210 gr cast at about 2000 fps and its very accurate at 100 yds.

For the 308 Ive been finding that 748 seems to work best. I dont use 4350 in the 308 as that powder was originally designed for larger capacity cases. 748 gives me very good accuracy in the 308 with 169 gr cast as well as with jackedt bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

johnch

Note; All those, including myself, that successfully use 4350 with cast bullets are using heavier bullets at the top end of cast bullet velocities and with 80+% loading density. I don't consider these as "reduced" but as normal cast bullet loads. A "reduced" cast bullet load to me is a '06 down under 1500 fps for example. Guess it depends on your definition of "reduced" is.


hydraulic

That load is a proven one and doesn't present any SEE problems. You are at about 70% loading density but are using a heavy bullet. If you were using a lighter bullet or less density there would be cause for concern. A dacron filler would probably help with that 100 fps ES by increasing ignition consistency.

Larry Gibson

[carpetman]

When I started reloading in the 60's I started out using IMR 4064 in the 30-06. A bunch of folks told me 4350 is THE powder. I think this got started by the Lyman manual (atleast the 44th edition and I think prior versions)having listed 4350 as the Accuracy load and the factory duplication load. Kept hearing that report so I got a can of 4350. My 30-06 sure likes the 4064 better. The Lyman Cast Bullet Third edition does list 4064 in the 200 grain cast bullet for the .308. I dont remember the first jacketed reload I shot---seemed like factory stuff I'd been shooting and didnt make an impression I guess. I well remember the first cast bullets I shot in 30-06. One load was using 4064 and it was about 30-30 (2400 fps)velocity and that's about what it felt like. The other load was Unique and down around 1600 fps and I thought I had a missfire--little blast and little recoil--felt more like a .22.

[Boerrancher]

I never could get 4350 to shoot out of a 30-06. Now I use it a lot in a 6mm-06, and the 6mm-284 for slightly lighter loads with the 85 gr 6mm bullet, when I want to down around 243 Win velocities for punching paper. I shoot a good deal of 4064 on cast boolits. It is one of my go to powders in everything from the 30-30 to the 30-06. When I get into larger bore diameters than 30 cal, I bump it up to IMR 3031 with the cast, With both IMR 4064 and 3031, I load for cast just like I would for a J type bullet, find a middle of the middle load for the boolit wt that I am shooting and work up from there. When accuracy starts to fall off or it starts showing signs of pressure I quit and back it off a bit.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[rbstern]

I've shot many H4350 cast and jacketed loads in 7.5x55 and 303 Brit. Typically 37 to 41 grains. Don't have my loading spreadsheet handy, so I can't quote the chrono velocities I measured, but I recall excellent results without any pressure problems with bullet weights from 150 to 180 grains.

[Larry Gibson]

If we're talking jacketed bullets out of the '06 with 4350 I've gotten excellent accuracy with it in numerous '06s over the years. It is marginal with some 165 gr bullets but really comes into it's own with 180 gr bullets. The max load is usually listed at 56 gr and it is a pretty good load. It can be max in some rifles so work up to it. Velocity out of 22" barrels generally run around 2725-2750 fps. velocity out of 24" barrels (my preference) run 2750-2800 fps. Accuracy has always been the best the rifle is capable of with many of them putting 5 shots into 1 moa consistently at 100 yards. I've killed many a deer, elk, caribou and a 188 5/8ths Big Horn sheep with that load (a few coyotes and other varmints too!).

A recent M70 with 24" barrel really likes the 165 Hornady SPBT over 59.5 gr of AA4350. I recently put 10 shots into 1.18" with that load. It runs 2839 fps at 58,200 psi(M43).

It is my experience that all of the 4350s give best accuracy at or close to maximum loads that are between 57 - 60,000 PSI. With IMR4350 and 56 gr under the 180 gr Hornady SPBT that same new M70 gives 2757 fps at 60,000 psi(M43).

Larry Gibson

[pdawg_shooter]

My 30-06 likes 57gr with a 180gr paper patched. Shoots the same as with a 180gr Rem. core lock.

[Snapping Twig]

I've been shooting 57g IMR 4350 under a 180g GC RNFP RCBS mould with great success.

[softpoint]

Just today I shot some imr 4350 in one of my .358 winchesters. 47 grains under Saeco 245grain cast. Shoots pretty good inthat rifle. I haven't chrono'ed it yet, but may get to do that tomorrow........:-D

[TEE]

Hey all,

Sorry to raise this one from the dead, but I can't seem to find what SEE stands for. I tried to look all over using searches, but ... you can imagine how common a word like see is. I imagine it's "pretty much terrible and you should never do it" but can someone tell me?

[RPRNY]

johnch

Note; All those, including myself, that successfully use 4350 with cast bullets are using heavier bullets at the top end of cast bullet velocities and with 80+% loading density. I don't consider these as "reduced" but as normal cast bullet loads. A "reduced" cast bullet load to me is a '06 down under 1500 fps for example. Guess it depends on your definition of "reduced" is.

Larry Gibson

This is a very important caveat and notice really need be taken of it.

[MT Gianni]

Secondary Explosive Effect. Basically the powder begins an ignition then the bullet somewhat retards that while the rest of the powder then ignites . This creates a large pressure wave or perhaps two waves that increase pressures dramatically, often beyond the guns designed capacity.
http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/ask-uncle-nick/secondary-explosion-effect-a-reality
http://www.africanxmag.com/secondary_explosion_effect.htm
Some places to start your reading.

[Shopdog]

I use 4350 in a jacked up '06 170g varmint load out of a CDL. There usually isn't an exit "hole" on Ghogs.... it blows the whole far side off. There's nothing "reduced" about the loading. It will blow a crow into an indistinguishable V shaped,black and red mess!

I'd be called a liar for posting group size so ya'lls on your own. I sorta had to shelve it because of recoil.... in the short term(cardiology issues) but will be back on it in 6 months or so?

[TEE]

Secondary Explosive Effect. Basically the powder begins an ignition then the bullet somewhat retards that while the rest of the powder then ignites . This creates a large pressure wave or perhaps two waves that increase pressures dramatically, often beyond the guns designed capacity.
http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/ask-uncle-nick/secondary-explosion-effect-a-reality
http://www.africanxmag.com/secondary_explosion_effect.htm
Some places to start your reading.

Thanks MT!! I recently picked up a savage 110e in 30-06 (my second savage 30-06). I normally load 57gn IMR4350 over 165 SGK for hunting. I loaded my last SGK and was pricing out more which hurt my wallet zone. I got the second 30-06 to play with cast without risking any learning damage to my primary hunting rifle.

At the same time, I have the LEE CTL312-160-2R and LEE C312-185-1R and a LEE C309-150-F. The only one that I’ve sent down range was the 160 out of my 303 Brit with 9.5gn Red Dot and this was less than 100 rounds. Given the lead I have collected, I thought maybe it’s about time to look into IMR 4350 under cast. Not reduced, that’s what the Red Dot is for.

I was looking to see if I could shoot cast close to as fast as jacketed without leading up my bore... or blowing up my face. I was playing with the idea of paper patching but just not there yet. Mostly, I really like my face the way it is.

A lbs of WW lead is a helluva lot cheaper than a lbs of jacketed bullets that’s for darn toots.

[Andy_P]

From the Lee Second Edition (2004) - not IMR4350, but H4350 and the obsolete slightly slower H450:

232784

Shows loads from 100% fill down to about 50%. H450 fell between H4350 and H4831 - near Re19 in many cases.