Coyote – 0 .32ACP -1

[warren5421]

Coyote – 0 .32ACP -1

Walking around the barn today jumped a Coyote trying for one of the barn cats. Had my Colt 1903 on me loaded with 2.2 gr Red Dot, Winchester small pistol primers, cast lead Hunter Supply 76 gr FP sized to .313, OAL .943. One shot going away, at 40’, between the shoulder blades dropped him in his tracks. Went through the spine and ended up touching the jaw bone. One lucky shot, but the round did a lot of damage for the size. The lead ended up weighing 73 gr. with very little deformation from the spine hit. This is the round I keep in the gun if not shooting at targets. No Rim Lock and in my carry Colt it gives 2 ½” – 3” from the bench at 25 yards. Offhanded I can keep 8 rounds in a 9” paper plate shooting as fast as I can. It has a little snap but much better than a .380 ACP.

Anyone else using a heavier bullet than factory that have noticed how the .32 ACP does better than what the other calibers indicate it should.

[elmacgyver0]

Don't underestimate it, the .32acp is nothing to sneeze at.

[Bigslug]

NICE! Browning's pocket autos - still gettin' it done!:mrgreen:

Given the current trend toward the FBI's priortization - placement, then penetration, then, maybe, diameter - I think the negative perception of the .32 and the .380 only really crept in when we went through the fad of everything needing to have a hollow point. Seems highly unlikely John would have given us something "useless".

Since the advent of the locked-breech pocket .380's a few years back, I doubt we'll see a big .32ACP resurgence, but I'm with ya - if the gun's gonna be blowback, I'll take the .32.

[Outpost75]

Good job, LOVE the Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless. Mine is a Type III made in 1914.

Also have a couple 1935 Berettas, a SIG P230 and one of the double-stack Beretta 81s. Will repeat the offer to send .pdf copies of the two Fouling Shot issues which have extensive data on loading the .32 ACP and review of the Beretta 81 pistol. Just PM me with an email address which can accept larger .pdf attachments.

Typical Euro 73-77 grain hardball does a 180-degree "flip" during its first 6-8" of soft-target penetration, continuing base-first to cause more damage than its kinetic energy would suggest. FMJRN Bullets tend to bounce around "like a billard ball" inside the body cavity, rather than penetrating in a straight path "rather making a mess of things" so says my shooting buddy "ER Doc" in Washington, DC who has long professional experience with the victims of gang bangers and dopers. The pelvic bone adjacent the groin area is only about 4.5mm thick and a double-tap to the lateral pelvis with .32 ACP hardball causes massive damage, extensive bleeding and excruciating, incapacitating pain, he says.

"A finishing head shot afterwards usually indicates a professional hit, but the ME gets those."

[Petrol & Powder]

I had a couple of Colt 1903 and 1908 pistols (32 ACP & 380 Auto) and wish I had held onto them. Even poor examples are commanding high prices these days.
One of my 1903 models had been shot with corrosive ammo and not cleaned properly. The interior of the barrel was in pitiful condition. Despite that damage prior to my ownership, it shot OK.
I knew a gentleman that carried a 1903 as his self-defense pistol and he never felt a need for more. He was an incredible marksman.
The 1903 Colt is flat and has a nice balance but I was never comfortable with the tiny safety. The safety works well but I had difficulty operating it under stress.
The Europeans always viewed the 32 ACP (7.65 Browning) in a far more favorable light that the Americans. There is no doubt that the Europeans typically load the 32 ACP to a higher pressure than is typical in the U.S., and that may have something to do with the difference in opinions.
In its normal factory FMJ American loading, the 32 ACP isn't very impressive. While it can be incredibly deadly, it's not always a good fight stopper. I believe that when loaded the way John Browning intended it to be loaded, the 32 ACP is far more impressive.

[cwlongshot]

I had two of those -903’s and liked them allot!! One 32 and later a 380. The 32 was “better” hands down!!

GOOD SHOOTIN!! Mine where never that accurate, but shot well.

I’m looking at the LEE 93g for use in the longer 32’s. Need a cheap fast cast plinker.

CW

[warren5421]

From some articles from the late 1946's to sometime in the early 1950's the .32ACP was loaded a lot hotter than today. It seems that some of the late WWII made guns, bring backs, were blowing up with the factory ammo so the U.S. ammo makers backed off on the power. Don't know if true or not, just something I read.

[Outpost75]

From some articles from the late 1946's to sometime in the early 1950's the .32ACP was loaded a lot hotter than today. It seems that some of the late WWII made guns, bring backs, were blowing up with the factory ammo so the U.S. ammo makers backed off on the power. Don't know if true or not, just something I read.

The old steel-frame holster guns are tougher than the new light alloy pocket ones.

I never cracked a frame on a 1903 Colt Pocket Hammerless, 1910 or 1922 Browning, Spanish Ruby or CZ 27 but have shot to destruction several Beretta Tomcats, both original blued and later heavy-slide INOX models as well as Keltecs and no longer own any of them.

My favorite .32 ACPs are the Colt Pocket Hammerless Type III without the separate barrel bushing or magazine safety, CZ27 or the Beretta M1935. The postwar light-alloy frame Beretta .32s Puma (M1935) Cougar (M70), and Cheeta (M81) hold up OK if you heavy-up the recoil springs from 14- to 16 lbs. to reduce frame battering with .380 ACP equivalent payload and velocity handloads using 2 grains of TiteGroup or 3 grains of AutoComp with 87-93 grain .308-.309" diameter bullets-90+/- grains at 900+ fps.

.32 ACP “WW2 Vintage,” Current Euro-CIP and Buffalo Bore +P Factory Ammunition

Ammunition ________________Beretta Tomcat 2.4”____Beretta M1935 3.4”

WW2 Geco Steel Cased FMJ_______907 fps, 14 Sd_________977 fps, 11 Sd
WW2 WRA 73-grain FMJ__________923 fps, 28 Sd_________1001 fps, 15 Sd
CIP-RWS 73-grain FMJ___________896 fps, 29 Sd__________981 fps, 16 Sd
CIP-Fiocchi 73-grain FMJ_________848, fps, 32 Sd_________917 fps, 11 Sd

Average 73-grain “Hardball” Velocity_894 fps_______________969 fps
Average 73 grain “Hardball” Energy_128 ft.-lbs.____________150 ft.-lbs.

Buffalo Bore 75-grain LFN_________883, fps, 6 Sd__________997 fps, 7 Sd
Buffalo Bore 75-grain Energy______128 ft.-lbs.____________164 ft.-lbs.

Loads exceeding 130 ft.-lbs. of energy are not recommended for use in Beretta Tomcat or Keltec Pistols

In my postwar Beretta light alloy frame M1935 and M81 pistols I replace the factory 14-lb. recoil springs with 16-lb. springs intended for the .380 ACP versions of the same model and then run handloads of equivalent payload and velocity to .380 ACP with no issues, using the Hornady .309" diameter 90-grain XTP bullet in Starline cases with Federal 200 primers and 3 grains of AutoComp for 900+ fps in the 3.4" Beretta M1935 and 960 fps in the 3.8" Beretta M81 and Colt M1903.

256692

ONLY in pistols in which the barrels slug over .310" diameter then substitute the .312" diameter 85-grain Hornady XTP bullets intended for the .32 H&R Magnum, which will expand "some" at 900+ fps.

[Texas by God]

Doing the job JMB designed it to do since 1899. I’ve always preferred it over the .380 for no other reason than it has been more accurate for me. I used to hunt squirrels with an FN 1922 quite successfully.

[Outpost75]

CIP max. sample average pressure for 7.65mm Browning is 1600 Bar or about 23,200 psi
Max. individual cartridge pressure as defined by the X-bar + 3 Sigma limit is 1840 Bar or 26,687 psi
PROOF pressure is 2080 Bar or about 30,170 psi.

Source: https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page12.pdf

[Mk42gunner]

So it is now "off topic and stupid question time" for me.

My question is: Is the flat nosed FMJ that Winchester loads in both the .32 and .380 ACP really any more effective than the standard RN FMJ that it seems everybody else loads?

Robert

[Outpost75]

So it is now "off topic and stupid question time" for me.

My question is: Is the flat nosed FMJ that Winchester loads in both the .32 and .380 ACP really any more effective than the standard RN FMJ that it seems everybody else loads?

Robert

Flat-nosed bullets don't "flip," but provide straight-line penetration, which may be an advantage. They also provide more "crush" than a round nose and are less easily deflected by oblique impacts against bone. But the Winchester FMJ loads are loaded to lower velocity than the Euro FMJs, so it is an "apples vs. oranges" comparison.

Typical Euro 73-77 grain hardball in .32 ACP typically does a 180-degree "flip" during its first 6-8" of soft-target penetration, continuing base-first to cause more damage than its kinetic energy would suggest. FMJ bullets in .32 ACP and .380 tend to bounce around inside the body cavity "like a billard ball", rather than penetrating in a straight path "rather making a mess of things" according to a shooting buddy and former West Pointer who served his surgical residency at the Washington Hospital Center (DC) and gained hands-on experience with the victims of gang bangers and dopers before being detailed to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, where he was mentored by Marty Fackler. My hunting buddy these days is retired from the Army and an orthopaedic surgeon in private practice. He says that the pelvic floor adjacent the groin area is only about 4.5mm thick, so a double-tap to the lateral pelvis with .32 ACP hardball causes massive damage, and extensive bleeding accompanied by level of pain which is generally incapacitating to all the most hardened opponents.

My real Made in Italy 95-grain FMJ in .380 ACP gives me 985 fps from a 3.4" barrel Beretta M1934 and 1012 fps from my SIG P230. US stuff is wimpy by comparison.

My 93-grain FMJ handloads in .32 ACP using the .308" Remington .30 Luger bullet with 3 grains of AutoComp give 930 fps from the 3.4" Beretta M1935 and 980 fps from the 3.8" Beretta 81. Very similar payload and velocity to the .380 ACP.

I get similar velocities loading the 90-grain Hornady .309" XTP hollowpoint in the .32 ACP with the same charge. First 5 rounds in the mag and up the pipe are XTPs, the rest of the mag heavy-ball, because if the fight is still on by then the other guy is probably hiding behind cover.

[Mk42gunner]

Thanks for the detailed reply Outpost75.

I need to get busy this spring and do some testing with my various .380's and keep looking for a good .32 ACP.

Robert

[jrayborn]

Very interesting, lots of good info in this thread.

[warren5421]

Anymore good info since Feb 2020

[Outpost75]

Anymore good info since Feb 2020

The principles and practice are well established. I'll repeat the offer to send .pdf copies of two Fouling Shot issues with extensive .32 ACP data and review of the Beretta 81 pistol. Just PM me and indicate an email address which can receive large attachments. If desired I can also append a collection of Word documents with additional articles and info on the .32 ACP.

[Petrol & Powder]

I can't add to the extensive knowledge of Outpost75.

I can say there are still some excellent Beretta Model 81's on the market. SO, if you want to grab one, now may be the time. They are Italian police surplus. They were very good deals about a year ago and despite the current climate, they are still not insanely expensive.

The Walther PP pistols chambered in 32 ACP have become extremely pricey and good 1903 Colts are now squarely in the collectors price range. If you have a decent 1903, hang onto it. I would also recommend laying in a supply of parts if you can.

One advantage to the 32 ACP is the economy of components. You can't do anything about the primers but the little 32 ACP expends very little lead & powder per shot.

I recently acquired a mold from Accurate (following the sound advice of Outpost75) and I'm looking forward to working up a load for the Beretta 81.

[10-x]

Interesting thread, .32 ACP is very underrated ,many years ago read that the 32 pistol killed more in WWII than any other.

[Petrol & Powder]

That's a difficult statistic to prove or disprove but pistols chambered in 32 ACP were certainly common in the European theater.

Vasily Blokhin, the Soviet executioner that killed 7000 Polish prisoners in a month was said to have used Walther pistols. There seems to be some dispute as to which model of Walther. Some claim they were model 2 Walther's (25ACP) while other accounts list Walther model 4 or PP, which would be 32 ACP.

[Jniedbalski]

I could use the 32 info . All the info I had saved on my I phone in notes. My phone went blank so did a guy I work with. Lost all his info. Outpost I saved every article you wrote on the 32 and outer info all gone pm sent.

[Jniedbalski]

It’s funny how my phone and a guys at work both went blank two days apparat. They where both three years old or a little bit older and apple 7 phones. Both phones just have the apple icon on the screen and won’t do anything.

[Outpost75]

It’s funny how my phone and a guys at work both went blank two days apparat. They where both three years old or a little bit older and apple 7 phones. Both phones just have the apple icon on the screen and won’t do anything.

Pre-programmed failure is designed into every Apple product to sell you a new device when a more expensive model comes out.

My ten-year-old Samsung Galaxy 7 is still going strong with some minor software upgrades and patches.

[jrayborn]

I have a Galaxy 7 as well. I like it, but not Google...

[pettypace]

Here's a riddle: What does a .32 ACP Colt Pocket Hammerless (shooting Outpost75's hot XTP loads) have in common with a .38 Special snubby (shooting target wadcutters) and a .45 ACP 1911 Colt (shooting GI hardball)?

[35remington]

My guess: same or similar wound mass.

[Outpost75]

Here's a riddle: What does a .32 ACP Colt Pocket Hammerless (shooting Outpost75's hot XTP loads) have in common with a .38 Special snubby (shooting target wadcutters) and a .45 ACP 1911 Colt (shooting GI hardball)?

32 ACP+P 100 HdyXTP
280794

Old School 158 LRN .38 Special
280795

.45 ACP Hardball
280797

Factory .38 Special soft swaged wadcutter from 2-in snub, riveted nose
280809280808

IGNORE Attached thumbnail graph which has data input error regarding bullet diameter!

[ddixie884]

Here's a riddle: What does a .32 ACP Colt Pocket Hammerless (shooting Outpost75's hot XTP loads) have in common with a .38 Special snubby (shooting target wadcutters) and a .45 ACP 1911 Colt (shooting GI hardball)?

What is it, depth of penetration?

[Outpost75]

What is it, depth of penetration?

Wound displacement.

[Green Frog]

OP 75, many years ago I was attracted to the Browning 1922. I picked one up in a convoluted trade but didn’t want to really do any hard work with it because it was a very nice Nazi marked bring back, complete with holster and one of the mags numbered to the gun... so it got traded. :?

Then I got an almost complete parts gun with the idea of replacing the missing front sight with one compatible with the little adjustable MMC type I hoped to use on the rear. I don’t remember the specifics, but that one went away in some sort of deal when somebody thought their plans for it were worth more than I was willing to put into it at the time.

A couple of decades later I have had a couple of 380s but never got around to getting another 32 ACP, so now I have to ask, would it be productive to head in this direction again or would you suggest another possibility. The European 380 I have had experience was a Femaru... the Nazis took over production during the war and had them altered to 32... I’ve toyed with the idea of trying to find one of those(?)

Comments?
Froggie

[Cargo]

My Mom had a 1950s-1960s era Walther PP in .32 and it was an amazing shooter. I'll agree that the .32 is an underrated cartridge.

[Jtarm]

They look like fun, but I’d go insane looking for my fired brass.

[charlie b]

That's the main reason I sold my 1903. Great little guns and almost perfect CCW size shape.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[Kuduking]

Today I tried another Outpost-recommended load, the Hornady 85 grain XTP-HP.

This bullet was loaded over 3.0 grain of new production Winchester Autocomp, in new Privi cases set off with a Fiocchi small pistol primer. This ball powder weighs in right on the money with thrown charges in the Dillon 550 RL progressive adjustable measure, using the optional micro powder bar. Cases were crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die, as the .312" bullet in the thick Euro cases will occasionally set a slight bulge when seated. Rounds were seated to 0.950" as the barrel of my new re-issue Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless has a very short throat, and I did not want any rifling engagement. All rounds dropped into the .32 ACP check gauge easily.

10 rounds chronographed at 10 feet: 1020 fps, SD 8, FPE 196.

Recoil was not alarming, no bulging of cases, primers normal without flattening or cratering. Group @21 feet was 3/4" and POI +1/2", dead center.

Very pleased with this load. 100% reliable in this short test. Performance exceeds factory .32 H&R Magnum out of a 3" barrel, and equals handloaded performance with the same bullet. In the latter @ 998 fps, this bullet penetrates 17" of ballistic gel and expands to .40".

Tested another Outpost-inspired load I've used previously, consisting of Meister 78 grain RNL under 2.0 grains of Titegroup with CCI 500 primer, loaded to 0.940".

10 rounds chronographed at 10 feet: 907 fps, SD 15, FPE 142.

This load is mild in the M1903 and shoots dead nuts on @ 21 feet. Completely reliable in the 100 rounds or so I've shot.

Great loads!

[historicfirearms]

Nice shooting. I had a similar experience years ago with a lucky shot. We had chickens at the time and a fox had been eating a few but I could never catch it. One morning I was pulling out of my driveway to go to work and I saw Mr. fox across the road at 80 paces. All I had with me was my 38 snub nose but I figured I could at least scare him a bit. At the shot, the fox dropped and expired. It was nearly a perfect heart shot. I couldn’t make that shot again in 100 years!

[Good Cheer]

Nice work on the coyote.
Used a .32ACP Bernadelli with 6" barrel for camp meat, Lyman #313249.
Loved it.

[rintinglen]

One thing that gets little comment, so it may be that my experience is atypical, is that 32's in my experience are less prone to malfunction than similar pistols in 380.

Years back, I had a Nazi marked 32 PPK that was perfectly reliable and never gave me any trouble. Foolishly, I drank the 45 ACP "coolade" and sold it and that remains a regrettable decision. In the 90's, I bought a PPK/s 380 that was not the trouble-free icon its older brother had been. It had an annoying habit of flicking the safety on when the slide slammed rearward under recoil. Likewise, I can think of several other 380's that came and went that were not all that and a bag of chips. But I can honestly say that the only really bad 32 I ever had was a Bernadelli that struggled to empty a magazine without a jam. And I currently have 8, a 1909 manufacture Savage, another from 1919, a 1913 Colt, a second from 1926-27, a Browning 1922, a Beretta 81, a Tomcat and a Browning 1955. If a stainless 32 PPK came my way, I might be tempted to add to the herd.

The only one that has a problem is the older Savage; the magazine is damaged, so that while it is fine when used with the newer guns magazine, it has jammed on occasion, usually the fourth or 5th shot using the original magazine. Someday I will find a replacement magazine that doesn't cost an arm and a leg and all will be right with the world.

[alfadan]

I have an FEG .32acp. I haven't reloaded for it but plan to this summer. I have a lyman 75gr rn and plan to use 700x. Its a walther clone and very reliable and accurate.

[Led]

I’ve loaded up to 100g slugs in 32acp with 2400, Blue Dot and IMR Blue. My Beretta 81 loves the heavy boolit loads.

Later,
Stephen

[pworley1]

Congratulations on your 1903 and your shooting.

[dverna]

Flat-nosed bullets don't "flip," but provide straight-line penetration, which may be an advantage. They also provide more "crush" than a round nose and are less easily deflected by oblique impacts against bone. But the Winchester FMJ loads are loaded to lower velocity than the Euro FMJs, so it is an "apples vs. oranges" comparison.

Typical Euro 73-77 grain hardball in .32 ACP typically does a 180-degree "flip" during its first 6-8" of soft-target penetration, continuing base-first to cause more damage than its kinetic energy would suggest. FMJ bullets in .32 ACP and .380 tend to bounce around inside the body cavity "like a billard ball", rather than penetrating in a straight path "rather making a mess of things" according to a shooting buddy and former West Pointer who served his surgical residency at the Washington Hospital Center (DC) and gained hands-on experience with the victims of gang bangers and dopers before being detailed to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, where he was mentored by Marty Fackler. My hunting buddy these days is retired from the Army and an orthopaedic surgeon in private practice. He says that the pelvic floor adjacent the groin area is only about 4.5mm thick, so a double-tap to the lateral pelvis with .32 ACP hardball causes massive damage, and extensive bleeding accompanied by level of pain which is generally incapacitating to all the most hardened opponents.

My real Made in Italy 95-grain FMJ in .380 ACP gives me 985 fps from a 3.4" barrel Beretta M1934 and 1012 fps from my SIG P230. US stuff is wimpy by comparison.

My 93-grain FMJ handloads in .32 ACP using the .308" Remington .30 Luger bullet with 3 grains of AutoComp give 930 fps from the 3.4" Beretta M1935 and 980 fps from the 3.8" Beretta 81. Very similar payload and velocity to the .380 ACP.

I get similar velocities loading the 90-grain Hornady .309" XTP hollowpoint in the .32 ACP with the same charge. First 5 rounds in the mag and up the pipe are XTPs, the rest of the mag heavy-ball, because if the fight is still on by then the other guy is probably hiding behind cover.

Good post.

[Outpost75]

Good post.

Thanks. Be advised that if the groove diameter of your .32 ACP is larger than .310" you can get similar results by substituting the .312" Hornady 85-grain XTP with the same charge.

In .32 S&W Long in modern post-1960 revolvers I load .312" diameter 100-grain Hornady XTP with 3 grains of Bullseye for 900+ fps from my 1964 3" barrel Colt Police Positive in .32 NP. Penetrates 30 inches in water jugs and expands to .40 cal.

298651298652

[pettypace]

Penetrates 30 inches in water jugs and expands to .40 cal.

I like the way those XTP's fold back on themselves to give just the right diameter. Maybe there's no such thing as a "silver bullet," but there are magic combinations of bullet design, weight, and velocity that optimize penetration and wound mass. This is one of them.

[GBertolet]

How to HSC and 1934 Mausers, rate in the strength and durability department for heavy reloads?