Krag carbine 1896

[Battis]

I looked at an 1896 Krag carbine today (serial number #69174). It was missing the rear sight and top handguard, but I know they're available. But, someone had removed the mag cut off and mounted a sight. Everything else looks good - the wood is in good shape, the saddle ring and barrel band are original.
I'm wondering if the mag cut off can be replaced.
They're asking $325.

[quack1]

The magazine cut off is the piece to the rear of the sight base. If you are thinking of restoring the gun to original, be aware the stock was cut out for the sight base. Also the tab on the end of the magazine cover has been cut off. I have a sight just like that on my Krag.

[Battis]

Is it a Redfield sight? Does the mount on your Krag look like this one?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Looking at your photo, the mag cutoff is present, just to the rear of the sight base. The saddle ring, while correct, could be a replica because of the better appearance it has compared to the rest of the visible parts. I know, because I've purchased a couple and installed them on a couple of my Krags where the part was missing to fill up the hole and have a better looking carbine. Can't tell without a close up, personal inspection.

If you purchase this carbine, where do you want to go with the project? If it is complete authenticity I'd try to discourage you, as you'll be truly shocked at the price of an original carbine sight. They look very similar to a rifle sight of the period, but are stamped with a "C", and a nice one is worth over $300. As pointed out by quack1, the stock has been cut for the receiver sight's mounting base. An original stock in nice condition, plus the sight, plus the cost of the carbine will put you at a figure near $1000. The cost of an original, authentic hand guard will push you well over that figure.You could remove the sight base and do an ordinance-type repair by patching in a piece of walnut. Replica hand guards can sometimes be found, but finding them with the barrel clips installed is not so easy, and doing it yourself is a tricky job. On the last couple that I did I purchased clips and rivets from S&S Firearms, NY, and the clips were too soft to grip the barrel well.

Before you purchase this carbine take a good photo or two of the tip of the front end of the stock and the muzzle and front sight and post them. We'll be able to tell if it has been cut down from a full length rifle. Take a photo the barrel band.

If your desire is only to have a Krag in carbine configuration, then if the bore is good, and you otherwise like the carbine go ahead and buy it, because the price is right for that purpose. Ask the seller if they have the rest of the rear sight that fits onto the existing mount. If not, you'll likely have to purchase a new sight if you wish to remain with the receiver mounted peep.

[Battis]

I have a restored 1896 carbine (replacement handguard, replacement rear sight, repro saddle ring, 1903 front sight), and I have an 1898 rifle. This one caught my eye. But you're right - it's too sporterized to restore. I posted the info on the Krag forum and they said the same thing -as a shooter the price isn't bad. One poster said that the sight looked like a Lyman 33 or 34 (I can't find any into on those sights).

[quack1]

Mine is a Lyman 34.
https://i.imgur.com/Nm0fp6Vm.jpg

[Battis]

Does the mount attached to the gun look like the one in the pic I posted? I can't find anything on Lyman 34 sights.

[Adam Helmer]

Der Gebirgsjager,

Excellent assessment of the cost of a Krag Carbine rebuild. In 2000 I found a Krag Carbine for $50 with nice action, but "Bubba" sawed the barrel off at 16 inches, put the mess in a sporter stock and wanted to be rid of it. My gunsmith fitted a new barrel cut and crowned to 20 inches and put the resulting arm in Bishop stock. He put original sights back on the gun and it is now my favorite woods deer rifle with good handloads.

Adam

[quack1]

Does the mount attached to the gun look like the one in the pic I posted? I can't find anything on Lyman 34 sights.

Yes, the sight on my Krag has exactly the same mount. That's how I knew the stock and magazine cover were altered.
There is a short write-up on the 33 and 34 in Strobels book. They are nearly identical, except for a couple details. I'm going on memory, so proceed at your own risk, but I think the 34 has threaded eyepiece and screw adjusted windage (both of which are present on the one in my post) and the 33 doesn't. They both were discontinued in 1943.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Adam-- et. al. -- Krags are great rifles, and I'm still in love with them. But, one has to be realistic about rebuilding them. Restoring one to "as-issued" is a great feeling, but a point is reached where it just isn't worth it. I have well over a dozen of them in various guises and configurations, but a very few that are completely authentic. The as-issued carbine was just about the perfect sporting rifle for it's day, as evidenced by how many original long rifles were cut down to approximate a carbine. Because that version was so popular, in addition to the fact that far fewer were made than the long version, they got "used up" by their owners resulting in the surviving original carbines being very expensive. Myself, being kind of a pragmatic fellow, I decided to (in most cases) accept the cut downs for what they are, perhaps make a few improvements as I found to be desirable such a receiver mounted peep sights, and enjoy the results without going much farther in restoration. They are a wonderfully smooth action and a mechanical marvel in how they operate, given the fact that they were all produced at the very least 117 years ago and some as long as 126 years ago, but they do have their limitations in design (one locking lug) and metallurgy and should be treated gently using reasonable loads. I have two or three that are conventional sporters with replacement stocks, etc., but still prefer the "almost military" shooters. I've quit acquiring, but still find it hard to pass up a good Krag deal. :grin:
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Click to enlarge

[Battis]

On the rack next to the carbine I was looking at was an 1898 carbine. I didn't pay much attention to it but I might have another look at it. It might be a cut down rifle but I don't think it had been bubba'ed like the one I was looking at (sights, etc).
I have an Krag 1898 full rifle that I paid $150 a few years ago. It was sold as a non-shooting wall hanger. All it needed was a firing pin. That is a great shooter. The 1896 carbine that I have was sold as a cut down rifle ($150). After researching the serial number, I found out that it was actually a carbine. As I said above, I added a replacement handguard, replacement rear sight, repro saddle ring, and a 1903 front sight.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yup...90% of the cut downs I've seen had a 1903 front sight. Just the right height, apparently, after the barrel is shortened; and they can be made to work well with one of the old time no gunsmithing receiver mounted peep sights. I've got a couple where the original front sight was remounted on the shortened barrel, but it's usually pretty obvious even to the casual observer. It sounds like you've done well with your purchases.

[444ttd]

i have a no drill redfield 102k peep sight on mine

https://i.imgur.com/7BTwpwD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7BTwpwD.jpg

[Texas by God]

I have the Redfield sight, too. From eBay, I thought it was expensive until I realized that it cost less than a good scope and would last at least another hundred years or so. Perspective is an adjustable thing.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Nice ol' Krag, 444ttd. Your Redfield sight is about a hundred dollar item now days, and not always available.

[Mk42gunner]

I have an 1899 Carbine, I just wish the army would have installed some way to sling it when dismounted. I guess they thought it would always be carried in a saddle scabbard.

It is a very handy little gun as long as you keep it in your hands.

Robert

[444ttd]

i think the redfield was around $40 on ebay 7 or 8 years ago. i have a lyman peep on my 98 mauser and i got(free) mauser redfield peep sight to put on my 91 argentine. i had a skinner sight on my encore but i got rid of it for a leupold 2-7x. i also have a williams fp sight on my m94.




https://i.imgur.com/poCiYDJ.jpg?2
https://i.imgur.com/LYE9aD9.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/nBFtFB6.jpg

[Baltimoreed]

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I also bought before researching the Krag and my first ‘carbine’ wasn’t. Made it into a Krag/scout. But on my second try I lucked up on an honest 1899 school [constabulary] rifle made from a carbine with carbine parts by the govt arsenal. One of my favorite bolt guns. The Krag Bowie bayonet is something that I made from a junk 1917 bolo knife. And then last year I found a 1896 rifle that was still in cosmoline at the Md Antique Military show which cleaned up perfectly. They are great guns but are old so reload with that in mind.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There's some interesting stuff coming up in this thread.
That's some good .30-30 shooting, 444ttd.
Nice Krag assortment, Baltimoreed. I can understand you making your own Bowie bayonet, as they're scarce and very expensive. From the photo I can't tell the difference between yours and an original. What great luck to find a Krag still in the cosmoline. You must have found the last one in the world........

[444ttd]

There's some interesting stuff coming up in this thread.
That's some good .30-30 shooting, 444ttd.
Nice Krag assortment, Baltimoreed. I can understand you making your own Bowie bayonet, as they're scarce and very expensive. From the photo I can't tell the difference between yours and an original. What great luck to find a Krag still in the cosmoline. You must have found the last one in the world........

you mean 35/30-30 or 35/30. i sent the 30-30 to JES Reboring and he rebored it to 35-30. and boy, he does a great job!!!!! i was sighting it in and it was 2 shots, move the peep, another 2 shoots, move the peep.......

i using buckhorn sights, the 35/30 was about 1 3/4"+ at 100 yards(3 shots). when i got the williams fp peep, the group size shrank rapidly. on a good day, i would do under 1/2" at 100 yards(3 shots/benched). on a bad day, 3/4 - 1" at 100 yards. my army training ('91-97) and JES have alot to do with me and groups, ALOT!!!! my eyes are not what they used to be. when using the original krag sights, i was looking at 3 things(back sight, front sight, target) and i could not do it. i was on verge of throwing krag into my safe when i remembered peep sights(i was an idiot not to remember!:veryconfu). it took me a several months to find the redfield no drill peep sight but i did and the deer were scared once again!!!!

Baltimoreed, wow!!!!! that is nice!!!!!!!

[Battis]

So, basically, if I get the carbine as a shooter and not to resurrect it, I'd have to find a Lyman 34 sight so I wouldn't have to butcher it any more. Anyone see one of those sights around? I can't find one, or even info on them.

[444ttd]

So, basically, if I get the carbine as a shooter and not to resurrect it, I'd have to find a Lyman 34 sight so I wouldn't have to butcher it any more. Anyone see one of those sights around? I can't find one, or even info on them.

try ebay, it can take you several months or a day or two. ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?227886-Krag-receiver-sight ) numrich "might" have them ( https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ )

others might have them
https://www.ssfirearms.com/products.asp?cat=124
https://www.granpasgunparts.com/krag-springfield

you can also put a no drill scope on it too
http://scopemounts.com/index.html?instapics.html

[Battis]

Apparently those sights were offered by Lyman for the Krags from 1895 to 1943. The sights could be as old as the carbine. I'll check those sites you listed.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, gee 444ttd, it's a '94, so I assumed......but .35-30 is good!

Battis-- here's the sight information as per my experience: The no-gunsmithing sights for the Krag were made by Redfield, Lyman, and a couple of other makers, all of which were much the same. There were also other designs, like one that attached to the cocking knob; but to my thinking the type on 444ttd's rifle, regardless of the brand, was just about the zenith of the adjustable no-gunsmithing peep sight. Even though no one has made them for at least 50 years, and maybe longer, they are sporadically available on the used market, primarily on e-bay. You can find them by doing a search for "vintage rifle rear sights" or "Krag parts".

All that is required to install them is to remove the magazine cutoff lever, and this is easy to do. Just use a tiny screwdriver to depress the spring loaded plunger beneath the lever into the lever itself, put the lever in it's middle position between on and off, and tap the lever rearward. The plunger and its spring are captive in the lever, but I'd take care to capture it in the event that someone has had it apart before and separated the two. But normally it will stay in the lever.

Next, on the right side of the replacement sight you'll notice a peculiar looking sheet metal hook held onto the sight body with a small screw. Insert the hook into the hole where the magazine cutoff lever was located and tighten the screw. Next, there is a hole at the lower left hand corner of the sight's mount, as you view it from the installed position. This is for a screw that replaces the original issue screw that holds the side plate onto the receiver. Screw in the replacement screw, and you're all done.

Now here's the rub, as they say. Rubs, actually: When you locate one of these sights you need to make certain that the little hook and/or the replacement screw are present. Many of them, at least half of them, that are offered for sale do not include the screw, nor will you find them for sale separately. Usually they've been lost. Same for the little hook, but that can be made by the amateur gunsmith with a little time and patience, and doesn't have to look exactly like the factory part as long as it will do the job. I reached a point where I had several of these sights sitting on my workbench without the one or the other, or maybe both, parts-- so I made a couple of the little hooks and solved the screw problem by using a screw with a more common thread that is close, and running a tap for that thread into the existing hole. We can discuss that solution at more length if you are faced with the problem.

As to availability, like I said it's sporadic, and the best source seems to be e-bay. Problem is, there's lots of competition buying them. The median price seems to be $100, but sometimes you'll get a bargain and other times they'll be bid up higher than I personally wish to pay. Once you decide that you want one, then you have to check e-bay daily. If the price is in the ball park and it has a "buy now", then buy it! I picked up two of them this morning for "buy now", one for $90 and the other for $99, one without the screw. Also, neither has the screw-in aperture, but that's an easy item to obtain. I usually buy the "Twilight Aperture" from Brownell's anyway, as I like the gold ring around the peep. Off the top of my head I don't know what the various model numbers were, and like I said there were several makers who manufactured similar sights, but the seller's description will almost always say that the sight is for the .30-40 Krag rifle. Even if they don't know what it's for, you can spot them by the presence of the little hook and the screw hole. And, if they don't know what they're for, you may get a bargain price. I believe that the source for most of these sights is that they've been take off of Krags that are being parted out and the parts sold separately. Sad, but I guess that's business and capitalism. Somewhere someone is tearing down a perfectly good Krag to sell the parts to someone else who's building one up. And some of the rifles have these sights.

Now, just to ward off criticism about having previously said I was no longer acquiring Krags and parts, and here I am buying sights, I'll explain that I just happened to run across the sights when looking for one for my latest No.1 Mk.III sporter. I did find a very nice, new/old stock Lyman for $139 (it will require a right side drill and tap), but grabbed these Krag sights because I have 4 or 5 complete actions left over from past deals and may perhaps eventually build them into rifles.

256417

This is also a nice sight-- not as hard to find. Well....last time I looked, anyway.

256422

[Battis]

I'm thinking that if...IF...I could find a Lyman #34 I could just slip it on that mounting, and I wouldn't have to make any changes. Like 444ttd said, it might take some time. I could also look for the Redfield.
I'm going back tomorrow to take a good look at the carbine.

A few years ago, I bought a set of old .401 Winchester Self Loader dies, and a year later I found a rifle.

[Rich/WIS]

Just checked and there is a Redfield 102 K on e-bay, stating at $99 and no bids, search "krag sight". Have had several Redfield sights, a 102K and two 70K's, all were well made but only one came with the screw that replaced the sideplate screw. The one on auction is missing this screw but an easy work around. Made one from an upper band screw for a 1903 Springfield and the other from a more common threaded screw. Have seen some crazy prices on these over the years, under a hundred now I would consider a bargain. The 102K uses opposing screws to set windage and a screw to set elevation and is locked in place by the large "coin" screw in the base. The 70K is click adjustable and a bit more desirable, came as the 70KH with hunter knobs and the 70KT with target knobs. For old eye or just general ease of use these sights are worth the cost.

[Battis]

I checked them out - thanks for the tip. I'll watch them. I wish whoever put the Lyman sight on had used the no drill Redfield sight instead.
I put the carbine on 60 day hold so I have some time. I'm thinking that I might replace the side cover with an intact one, and put an 1896 rear sight on it, and fill the holes from the Lyman sight. That'd be about $100 (if I can find the sight screws). Then I'd have to decide whether to put a replacement handguard on it. I have another 1896 carbine with a replacement handguard, and it's tough to match the wood colors. Then again, the Redfield sight would be less work and would cover the Lyman damage, except for the side plate.

[444ttd]

i filled the screw holes on my back sight with wax. i just lit up a candle and just poured the liquid wax onto my screw holes.

[Texas by God]

DG- I must be off my meds(again)... I thought you grafted a No.1 MKIII windage rear sight onto that Krag[emoji846]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Rich/WIS]

Have you tried posting on the Krag Forum, there is wealth of knowledge there. They can tell you exactly what you have and the options available for restoration.

[Battis]

Yeah, I posted about the carbine on that forum and one poster suggested replacing the side cover and adding an 1898 rifle rear sight. I just bought the side plate on ebay ($35). I'll get the sight and then decide about the handguard.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

DG- I must be off my meds(again)... I thought you grafted a No.1 MKIII windage rear sight onto that Krag[emoji846]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

No. Sir........but perhaps that might be done. The sight in question is a little bit altered by someone who previously owned it. It's one of those that originally had three notches on the rear, but has had a bit of metal brazed over the area eliminating all but the center notch.
There were 3 or 4 basic sight models, and several variations within those models. I like the basic type shown best, but it has eliminated the push up peep. The aperture on the peeps are kind of tiny...not too good for hunting but great for target shooting.
256647

DG

[Battis]

Der Gebirgsjager posted:

You could remove the sight base and do an ordinance-type repair by patching in a piece of walnut

That's an interesting idea.
It dawned on me that I have a ready made pattern - two other Krags. And I have all the tools I need - Sawzall, sledgehammer, nail gun...I'm kidding. Sort of...

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, on the chance that I can help you, and that you're not kidding, here are some photos and info on ordnance-type repairs:
Here is a P-14 with one on the right side forward of the bolt. It is illustrative of what you'd have to do, as a chunk of the stock was apparently damaged, cut out, and replaced with another piece of wood. It could be blended better by staining it to match the walnut stock, but the inserted piece may not be walnut. I think the repair was done in India:
256855
Click to enlarge.

Moving closer to home, here's one I did on a Krag. A big splinter had broken off enabling me to pick the stock up at a favorable price. This is how I repaired it:
256856256857256859256860 1st photo shows the missing splinter. 2nd & 3rd photos show the vertical and horizontal markings, 4th photo shows the outline of the piece to be cut out of the walnut scrap to replace the splinter. I've got a couple of boxes of scraps that I saved from stock jobs, so I matched the color of the wood as closely as I could. I selected a piece that was as close in thickness as possible to the missing piece, but a bit thicker as I wanted to work it down to the surface level of the surrounding area of the stock.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The part was cut out of the wood slab being careful to leave the pencil line as the replacement part would be worked down to the surrounding stock surfaces.
257202
Next AccraGlas Gel was applied generously to the surface of the broken area. The replacement piece was applied. Excess AccraGlas was scraped off from both the interior and exterior of the repair.
257203

The replacement piece was clamped in place until the AccraGlas dried.
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When the clamp was removed it looked like this:
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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Next the replacement part was worked down with files and rasps, then final sanded.
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On the rifle action it looked like this:
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A little walnut stain, and the repair disappeared.

You can do this! :grin:

[Battis]

Great info and instructions. I'll be referring back to your posts as I do it (I was kidding about the tools, not the job itself). I've done repairs on other stocks, and I do have the other two Krags for a pattern.
I have a side plate on the way that will cover one of the holes drilled for the mount. Someone also mounted a scope and drilled other holes, but a replacement handguard will cover two of them, and the others I'll fill in.
The stocks were all made of walnut?
Thanks again for the info.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yes, stocks were walnut.

[Battis]

I've been working on the bubba'd Krag. I bought a side cover that did not exactly fit. Apparently, a side cover from an 1896 will fit an 1898 but not the other way around. Of course, the one I got was for an 1898. It took me maybe 15 minutes with a Dremel to get the "lip" to fit into the receiver and now it's fine.
I bought a rear sight for an 1898 the fits just right. Then, in a moment of cheapness, I made two screws with a drill press and file (cost me $1.00 for both). They don't look bad.
Now I have to fill in the scope screw holes and fit the missing piece of stock. There's a few hairline cracks in the stock that I can see that I'll fix with West Systems epoxy. Then I'll need a handguard but that can wait.
Now and then side covers

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Good job. I never knew that information about side plates-- guess I just never ran across that particular combination.

There used to be, and maybe still is, a seller on e-bay who sold new replica hand guards. He wasn't inexpensive, but the product was quality. He offered at least 5 variations including a blank without a rear sight cutout. His clips and rivets were also good. I'd always find him by doing a "Krag" search, and sometimes he was there and sometimes he wasn't. Although kind of pricy his brand new replicas cost much less than used originals. I eventually purchased at least one of every variation he offered, and the one in my earlier photo (post #24) is one of his. Wish I had saved the contact information, but maybe he'll turn up if you look for him.

I'm glad that you were able to successfully make rear sight screws. For a long time they were one of the most difficult items to obtain, all were used, some with chewed up screwdriver slots, and sometimes cost as much as $40 for a pair, complicated by the fact that different models of sight use different length screws. Now I see them for sale at better prices and often brand new, so someone must be making them also.

I think you're going to end up with a very nice rifle that was worth the effort.

[Battis]

I bought a handguard for my other carbine a few years ago. It took quite a bit of hand fitting but it looks good. I might try to make one out of an old stock that I have - it's worth a try. I brought a sight screw to the hardware store, measured the thread and bought two screws that were close in head size. I put the end in the drill press and filed away on the head until I had the right diameter, then cut them to length. The front one looks good, the smaller rear one might need another attempt.