Brass Prep and progressive presses

[Captain*Kirk]

I currently am loading using my tried and true RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press. I've watched a whole bunch of videos on other presses available, including turret and progressive presses but not sure if I'm ready to take the leap forward.
First of all, I'm meticulous with my brass prep. Almost ADD, actually. My cases get tumbled, de-primed and sized, have the primer pockets cleaned and primer holes checked and de-burred, case length checked and trimmed if necessary, and case mouths chamfered and de-burred long before the brass ever hits the loading sequence. My used brass looks like factory new brass when I start reloading, bagged and tagged just like new brass. So, I know I could never do like the guys in the videos claiming 3-500 rounds an hour who are shoveling buckets full of dirty brass fresh off the range into the decapping die on a progressive or turret press, without a mental makeover. It goes against my nature...[smilie=1:
I'm also pretty A/R when it comes to charging cases...rifle cases especially...with regard to checking and double checking load weight, and viewing the charged cases for uniformity before bullet seating. And yet I watch these guys cranking round after round off their Dillon or RCBS Pro 7 progressives with barely a glance at the actual process. (too much information happening at once to be able to watch everything)
I realize this (progressive method) is probably identical to the method used at the ammo factories, ammo I would shoot without a second thought. So, am I going too far in my meticulousness (is that even a word?) and do I need to chill out, upgrade to a faster, more efficient press, and quit wasting time on mundane tasks that may or may not actually be buying anything? Or keep on keepin' on, slow and steady, but confident in my finished product that looks and chambers like factory-new ammo?
Not that I shoot thousands of rounds a year...most shooting sessions only have me firing off a couple hundred rounds max, and I can easily load that single stage in an hour or so.
What do you guys do, and are you confident in the finished product? Have you encountered any issues when really cranking out ammo?

[sigep1764]

I am the same as you with rifle brass. It gets fully prepped before hitting the Dillon. I haven't really seen anyone shoving dirty brass onto a press, but to each their own. I check powder weight every 20 rounds or so for the first 100, then top off the powder and check maybe every 50 rounds. It has never been off. Not saying it cant happen, but they are reliable machines for sure.

When I first started loading for bottlenecked cartridges, I did everything on a single stage. Took forever to load 100 rounds. Bought the conversion for the 550B and never looked back.

[jmorris]

My cases get tumbled, de-primed and sized, have the primer pockets cleaned and primer holes checked and de-burred, case length checked and trimmed if necessary, and case mouths chamfered and de-burred long before the brass ever hits the loading sequence. My used brass looks like factory new brass when I start reloading, bagged and tagged just like new brass.

FWIW factory brass is created by the thousands per hour and most will never be touched by a human hand until you open the box and pull them out.

For rifle, even with a progressive, it’s a two pass process. I don’t run dirty brass in a machine so the first step is to clean them. Then I can size, deprime and trim. The trimmer is in the tool head, if the case needs to be trimmed, it is, if it doesn’t, it’s not, fast and simple. After that they can be tumbled again to knock off case lube, if you use stainless pins wet, they will look like new cases, inside and out.

Then onto the load pass, also worth noting that manufacturers do not use weighed charges, rather volume charges, same as I do on almost all my progressive loading.

I also like to use powder check dies, they can be set up quite sensitive and even with identical charge weights, detect internal volume differences between different cases.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EU9deSKm48

[kayala]

I do my prep work on my 650 (tumbled with SS pins first). On 650 with one pull of the lever I deprime, size and trim (Dillon trimmer). After that brass goes for primer clean, uniform and mouth chamfer on Lyman prep station. Finally tumble to remove lube and polish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Captain*Kirk]

I haven't really seen anyone shoving dirty brass onto a press, but to each their own.

I watched a YouTube'r doing it just last night, after bragging how he was doing 300 rounds an hour. Not only was the brass dirty, but he never even looked at the primer pockets before stuffing a new primer in on his Lee progressive press...round after round. I have the RCBS brass prep center and run each case through the whole sequence; clean/uniform the primer pocket, uniform the pocket size, de-burr the flash hole (if not previously done; even with new brass) brush the inside of the case, then de-burr the case mouth after length check and trim if required. Yes, it's a lot of somewhat boring, mindless work, but brass is the most expensive reloading component, and the only re-usable one so I take it seriously. Never have I had a reloaded round fail to cycle or feed so I must be doing something right. Just wondering how much a turret press or progressive would speed up the loading operations notwithstanding the brass prep, or if it's not worth the extra money just to seat and crimp bullets?
BTW, I drop my pistol charges straight from the hopper and check accuracy every 20-50 rounds. With rifle rounds I weigh each and every charge, especially with 7mm mag full-house loads. One or two grains over could really mess your day up. No way I would feel comfortable dropping those charges from a progressive or turret press without checking them.

[jmorris]

And yet I watch these guys cranking round after round off their Dillon or RCBS Pro 7 progressives with barely a glance at the actual process. (too much information happening at once to be able to watch everything)

With some of them I don’t even sit there and watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU

Even without automation collated bullet and brass feed on a progressive with a powder check, makes it so your attention doesn’t have to be on “everything”. Makes loading 100 rounds in under 4 minutes less work than loading 100 rounds in 10 minutes on one I have to manually feed cases and bullets.

I do roll size first and case gauge after loading, every round I shoot in competition but yes I have more confidence in them than factory ammunition. I have won lots of matches with ammunition loaded on progressive presses.

[Muddydogs]

I reload my hunting or special loads about like you do with meticulous brass prep. Some is all done on the single stage press but some like my .44 hunting loads will get sized and deprimed on the progress as its a whole lot faster to size a couple hundred rounds with a progressive press then the rest of the loading on a single stage. For general pistol target ammo I have no problem dry tumbling the cases then loading in one shot on the progressive. When I first started out with the progressive I was worried about the powder charge weight being consistent, well after measuring a few 1000 charge weights in the 10 or so calibers I load on the progressive I have come to figure out that the progressive powder measure is very accurate. I would maybe do more loading on the progressive press but after cranking out a few 1000 rounds in a few hours I find it enjoyable to take my time and load up 100 rounds for one of my hunting rifles.

Probably another reason that I don't run everything progressive is for most of my low volume calibers I keep up on brass prep so there is usually never more then 100 or so pieces of brass needing prepped at any one time and I always have at least a couple hundred cases that just need primer, powder and bullet. The calibers I due use the progressive on are ones that I can blow through a few 100 round out of in one range trip.

[jmorris]

Not only was the brass dirty, but he never even looked at the primer pockets before stuffing a new primer in on his Lee progressive press...round after round. I have the RCBS brass prep center and run each case through the whole sequence; clean/uniform the primer pocket, uniform the pocket size, de-burr the flash hole (if not previously done; even with new brass) brush the inside of the case, then de-burr the case mouth after length check and trim if required.

It’s not for everyone or for me even everything.

I don’t inspect every primer pocket but do have devices that do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V7vSEAqkZw

That said, I don’t load for my benchrest rifles on a progressive but “factory” brass won’t even fit in them, I also don’t tumble them, heck, after I spend all the time to get them ready for the rifle, they don’t even ever touch another case, for the rest of their life.

If it’s not for you don’t waste the money. That said I have placed first at a National championship with ammo loaded on a progressive but never placed that high with the ones I have put my heard and soul into, hand crafting than then slowly loading on a single stage...

[MrWolf]

Ok. Have to admit I am a bit impressed with what you have done jmorris. Very nice.

[jmorris]

So, am I going too far in my meticulousness (is that even a word?) and do I need to chill out, upgrade to a faster, more efficient press, and quit wasting time on mundane tasks that may or may not actually be buying anything?

That’s the question or questions.

What are you loading for?

What are the components you are using?

What are your expectations in time spent and accuracy?

What are your current results?

[Captain*Kirk]

That’s the question or questions.

What are you loading for?

.380ACP, 7mmRM, .45/70 Gov't, .44RM, .44-40 (smokeless), .35 Remington

What are the components you are using?

Pretty wide variance. From cast bullets, to SJFP, to SPBT, and plated bullets. Powders, same. Unique, RE22, 4320 and others. Brass; factory stuff or Starline. Primers, CCI, Remington, Winchester

What are your expectations in time spent and accuracy?

I will generally try to reload what I've shot in the past month...usually 50-200 rounds but generally not more than that.Range fodder I'm not concerned with accuracy as much as function. Rifle/hunting ammo, yeah.

What are your current results?

Some loads are very, very good (7mm) Others...meh. Worst load ever was a .45-70 using Speer 400gr SJSP bullets. I ended up pulling all the bullets and starting over.

[Captain*Kirk]

....if you use stainless pins wet, they will look like new cases, inside and out.

Tell me more.

[Valley-Shooter]

Don't sweat some of the small stuff.
Brass doesn't need to be shiny. Clean is nice. When I started loading I didn't have a brass tumbler, still made good ammo.
Primer pocket cleaning, I did that a long time ago. Never saw any differences in my reloads after I stopped cleaning primer pockets.
I have 5 progressive presses and they all make good ammo.
How many rounds will you shoot a week? A month? How much time can you devote to reloading?
Back when I was shooting IPSC I was shooting 300 - 500 a week with one handgun. Now days I'll go to a Glock match with 600 - 800 rounds for one weekend. All match rounds get chamber checked or case gauged. Sometimes this happens the morning of the match.

It all depends what you are reloading for.
A rifle match? Handgun bullseye? Action steel match? Plinking in the back forty on the weekend?

Everyone has their own process for their needs and wants.




Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[Burnt Fingers]

With pistol brass...mainly 9mm and .45 ACP, I just tumble it then dump it in a bucket. When needed I take it from the bucket and dump it into the collator.

That's it. I sort the crimped 9mm and small primer .45 ACP on the press.

[Captain*Kirk]

With pistol brass...mainly 9mm and .45 ACP, I just tumble it then dump it in a bucket. When needed I take it from the bucket and dump it into the collator.

That's it. I sort the crimped 9mm and small primer .45 ACP on the press.

Which press?

[kevin c]

The old saw comes to mind: "Good, fast or cheap; kindly pick two."

Single stage processing and loading allows meticulous attention to detail. With equal attention to components and technique, I believe the finest ammunition can be crafted, though it takes time.

Auto indexing multistage presses produce ammunition in quantity. With good components, technique, and some sacrifice in the speed of operation, very high quality ammo can be produced, though I don't think quite as high as what a bench rest shooter can get crafting one round at a time.

I need the volume. I'll take speed of operation at some small sacrifice (for me, given how I use the ammo) in quality (though not in safety) as a matter of necessity.

[Captain*Kirk]

The old saw comes to mind: "Good, fast or cheap; kindly pick two."

Single stage processing and loading allows meticulous attention to detail. With equal attention to components and technique, I believe the finest ammunition can be crafted, though it takes time.

Auto indexing multistage presses produce ammunition in quantity. With good components, technique, and some sacrifice in the speed of operation, very high quality ammo can be produced, though I don't think quite as high as what a bench rest shooter can get crafting one round at a time.

I need the volume. I'll take speed of operation at some small sacrifice (for me, given how I use the ammo) in quality (though not in safety) as a matter of necessity.

Well, truth be told, I don't shoot near as much in person as I do in my mind, so it's not the quantity I'm lacking. I've always got enough reloaded in each caliber to go shooting. It's the amount of time I spend getting the quality of ammo I want. I'm not willing to sacrifice quality for quantity, and don't need to. But if I can reload 100 rounds in ten minutes as opposed to an hour and still come out shiny I'd be a happy camper. I enjoy reloading, but it's not my favorite pastime. There are other things I would prefer to do.

[Winger Ed.]

I do rifle stuff about like you do. I'll wash them in soap & water, dry, size & de-prime.
Then do all the prep: flash hole, primer pocket, trim, etc. After that, dry tumble/polished.

Rifle stuff gets loaded on a single stage LNL. It they get IMR powder, its weighed for each charge, ball powder- every 5th or so.
As cases come out of the tumbler,
they're put base up in a loading block to poke the piece of media out of the flash hole and sort head stamps.

Pistol cases get washed, dried and tumbled. .45ACP gets sorted for small primers as they go in, then around on the LNL AP.
For powder checking, I sit where I can look down into the charged case after the measure is all set up & going.

There's a couple of short cuts I take, and a few I don't,
but this system works for me, and it's 'handy'.

I wash cases before they get tumbled so my dry media doesn't get dirty and 'clogged' so soon.
I polish as a last step with rifle cases to keep any abrasives out of the sizing die,
and do it after I'm mostly done handling them.
With pistol cases, after a million or so- I figure I might need to get another carbide sizer.

[calm seas]

Capt*Kirk,
I have a Hornady LnL Progressive. I typically deprime/size on it, tumble clean, hand prime, then charge/seat/prime. I don't get 300 rounds per hour, but once I have a load dialed in on my Rockchucker, I can swap the dies to my LnL, and load up a hundred or so quicker than on my RCBS...but I don't try for 300 an hour, or anywhere close to it. Not as anal as some, I admit, but I don't use the press to its full potential, if all ya wanna do is dump brass, seat bullets, and pump out ammo.

[Captain*Kirk]

Capt*Kirk,
I have a Hornady LnL Progressive. I typically deprime/size on it, tumble clean, hand prime, then charge/seat/prime. I don't get 300 rounds per hour, but once I have a load dialed in on my Rockchucker, I can swap the dies to my LnL, and load up a hundred or so quicker than on my RCBS...but I don't try for 300 an hour, or anywhere close to it. Not as anal as some, I admit, but I don't use the press to its full potential, if all ya wanna do is dump brass, seat bullets, and pump out ammo.

Well, this is what I'm after, and as you can see, I get the desired results:

https://live.staticflickr.com/2805/34010216170_76668ebc82_c.jpg

Wouldn't mind doing it faster, but not at the expense of quality.

[JimB..]

I think you should see of you can find someone local that loads on a progressive. You may or may not do things like they do, but you’ll see that you can produce the ammunition you want in less time.

The one issue I see is with the quantities you load. I do some on a single stage, only setting up a progressive when I want to load hundreds or thousands. It’d be a pain to setup and load 100 of one caliber and then change the setup to load 100 of another. Might be faster than just loading on the single stage, but not by much.

[W.R.Buchanan]

That’s the question or questions.

What are you loading for?

.380ACP, 7mmRM, .45/70 Gov't, .44RM, .44-40 (smokeless), .35 Remington

What are the components you are using?

Pretty wide variance. From cast bullets, to SJFP, to SPBT, and plated bullets. Powders, same. Unique, RE22, 4320 and others. Brass; factory stuff or Starline. Primers, CCI, Remington, Winchester

What are your expectations in time spent and accuracy?

I will generally try to reload what I've shot in the past month...usually 50-200 rounds but generally not more than that.Range fodder I'm not concerned with accuracy as much as function. Rifle/hunting ammo, yeah.

What are your current results?

Some loads are very, very good (7mm) Others...meh. Worst load ever was a .45-70 using Speer 400gr SJSP bullets. I ended up pulling all the bullets and starting over.

The only round I see that you load that could be somewhat critical, if you were shooting long range, is the 7mmRM.

The rest are all low volume, low precision cartridges for you, so going to a progressive is not going to pay you back in any real amount due to the changeover time necessary to set the machine up to do the next cartridge. IE: for you and your needs a progressive machine is a complete waste of time, and money. A progressive machine only really pays for itself if you are loading hundreds of rounds of the same caliber often.

For example I use a Dillon 550B for loading all my .223's, .40 S&W and .45 acp's. I load hundreds of those every year and it keeps me in ammo for the year and then I do it again as needed. For most all of my other cartridges, IE: .44 Spec/Mag 50-100 per sitting, .303 British 50/sitting, .308/.30-06 50/sitting, and .45-70's 50/ sitting, I use my BPM Hand Press at the kitchen table.

It is a portable single stage press that is small and compact and has the Hornaday LNL quick change die system so change over to a different caliber is as fast as pulling the already set up dies from their box and resetting the RCBS Powder Measure to just below the desired charge and then trickling to dead on with the "Trickler in the drop tube" which works so well it is criminal.

You could do the same thing with any single stage press. Mine just doesn't require it to be bolted to a table or bench. It can be clamped in place with a simple bar clamp ($5.)

What you need to understand about loading ammunition is that is all comes down to how many times you must handle each individual round. The more times you handle any given round, the longer it takes, times the number of rounds you are loading. Also the less human hands touch each case the better off it will be !!! and I can't stress that enough!!!!

So if you handle a case 6 times from beginning to end,,, times 100 rounds,,, then you touched cases 600 times.!

What a Turret Press does for you is reduce the number of times you handle each case. IE: after case prep is done and each case is inserted into the machine it will not be touched again until it is fully loaded and removed from the machine and put in the box. You will pull on the handle as many times as is necessary to do all the operations required to complete that round.

With a Progressive Press as soon as all the stations are occupied, everytime you pull on the handle a loaded round drops off the end into the basket. So it is the difference of say 4 pulls for each round versus 1 pull for each round. IE less handling.

The trade off is in the set up time and unless you are going to load more than a few rounds of a given caliber it is not worth the setup time to change the machine over. It is called "Amortizing your time" over the number of rounds you are completing.

Even so a Dillon 550C can be changed over in a matter of a few minutes and can load anything from .25 acp to .458 Win Mags. The difference being in the cost of the tooling necessary to make this happen in the most efficient manner.

Another way to save time during the reloading process is to not be so anal with case prep which is where you are spending most of your time. I seldom diddle with Primer Pockets, I tumble brass to clean it, and load it. Mine looks as nice as yours do but I spent 1/3-1/2 less time doing it.

In closing,,, figure out where you can eliminate steps and it will make your process more efficient. A decent Turret Press or a C&H 444 (shown below) is all the farther you need to go until you are shooting more ammo. Then when you need to load 1000 rounds for a contest you can buy a Dillon SDB for the caliber you need to load for,,, and be done with it.

Hope this helps you figure this out.

Randy

[wv109323]

Part of the answer depends on how you charge the powder in your cases. If you weigh each charge then there will be little time saved over a single stage.
Speaking of a Dillon 550, the folowing would apply. You can re-size and deprime on your single stage. You can then do whatever you need to do to the brass.... clean,swage/clean primer pockets,trim
With the Dillon you could then return the brass to the progressive and start to reload. On the first stage you would just seat the primer. On the second stage the powder would be 1.)thrown from the Dillon powder measure, 2.) Thrown from another brand powder measure by hand or, 3.) Weight your charge on scale and pour the charge through a dillon funnel. The third stage would be seat the bullet.
Some add a light and mirror and visually check the powder level before seating the bullet. A powder check may be available .
The only thing where you can get in trouble is the powder into the case. With stick powders they meter poorly and can bridge in the powder funnel. A ball powder may work best.
If you change calibers, loads ,and seating depths then you may be just a good with a single stage.
Progressives become attractive if you loads lots of the same caliber,bullet and powder in quantity. Another solution is to have enough brass to load a years supply of he same before changing the press.

[jmorris]

Tell me more.

This is a decent read on the subject.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/08/wet-tumbling-brass-with-stainless-media-eye-opening-results/

This is a thread on the one I built that photo bucket ruined. I am out of space here or would repost the photos. If you are interested it seeing them PM me with your email and I’ll send them to you.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?135223-Homemade-wet-tumbler-for-stainless-steel-media&highlight=Stainless+steel

I also built some really big ones for a manufacturer, and a crane to load and unload them, they tumbled 15 gallons per drum x 6 to keep their camdex machines going.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZOYjmAnO0

For your pistol rounds, you are likely just wasting time with a bunch of prep, if it makes you feel good though it’s not wasted.

What are you going to do with the extra time you save if you get a progressive. If it’s sit in front of the TV and drink, you are likely better off sticking with a single stage anyway. If you have other productive stuff to do, then you’ll get to do more of it, with a progressive press.

[44magLeo]

I don't own a case tumbler. Had one but didn't like the mess.
Clean brass is good. bright and shiny like new is not any better as far as the way it goes through a guns action or how well it performs.
If you think your bright and shiny ammo shoots better than my not so bright and shiny, then you better keep doing it. Confidence in your ammo is a good thing.
Me, I found mine shoots just as good without all the effort.
I use a Lee's case lube on those that get FL sized so it's easy to clean with hot soapy water, then air dry. This leaves the brass clean but not bright and shiny. On the ones I run through the Lee neck size dies don't get lubed but if dirty get the soapy water wash.
Once it's dry I store it in boxes. I keep the brass in the same lots I got it in. Weather it comes from factory ammo, new cases or once fired brass. Range brass is sorted by head stamp and case weight.
When I want to load I just pull out how ever many boxes of cases I want to load then and load them.
I don't shoot as much as I used to so loading o a SS press is fine. I like thus way because I can pay more attention to the details of powder charge and bullet seating depth.
Leo

[ulav8r]

Another thing to remember is that many case prep operations are a one time op and others can be every 5-10 loads worth. Examples: Trim to length first time, then after 5-10 loads; chamfer only after trimming; most cases can be loaded 3-5 time before needing tumbling again without getting too dirty. Bright polished brass is easier to find in grass but if it is clean brightness doesn't matter for loading and using.

[fast ronnie]

I use an old single stage to de-prime using a Lee de-capping die. I don't like the dirt,etc. in my good presses, not even the single stages. (I just bought a new Lee APP press for de-capping and bulge busting).

Next, they go in the stainless pin tumbler. No dirty cases ever go in my size dies. I hate cleaning primer pockets and that's why I use the pin tumbler, plus I like the way they look when finished.

From stainless tumbling, pistol cases get dried in the sun. .40 S&W's get bulge busted every time. Same with 9mm. Stainless pins do the primer pocket so I don't have to do them individually. .38's and .45's go directly to the progressive. All rifle brass gets checked for length and trimmed as necessary after tumbling. Some get finished on a single stage, but
.223 goes in the Dillon 750. Pistol cases go to the SDB.Other than .223, every bottleneck case get the charge weighed and trickled within a tenth of a grain. Just the way I do things.

[largom]

I like handloading as much as shooting so Everything is done one at a time. The ammo I produce is the absolute best I can do.

[Mollyboy]

I currently am loading using my tried and true RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press. I've watched a whole bunch of videos on other presses available, including turret and progressive presses but not sure if I'm ready to take the leap forward.
First of all, I'm meticulous with my brass prep. Almost ADD, actually. My cases get tumbled, de-primed and sized, have the primer pockets cleaned and primer holes checked and de-burred, case length checked and trimmed if necessary, and case mouths chamfered and de-burred long before the brass ever hits the loading sequence. My used brass looks like factory new brass when I start reloading, bagged and tagged just like new brass. So, I know I could never do like the guys in the videos claiming 3-500 rounds an hour who are shoveling buckets full of dirty brass fresh off the range into the decapping die on a progressive or turret press, without a mental makeover. It goes against my nature...[smilie=1:
I'm also pretty A/R when it comes to charging cases...rifle cases especially...with regard to checking and double checking load weight, and viewing the charged cases for uniformity before bullet seating. And yet I watch these guys cranking round after round off their Dillon or RCBS Pro 7 progressives with barely a glance at the actual process. (too much information happening at once to be able to watch everything)
I realize this (progressive method) is probably identical to the method used at the ammo factories, ammo I would shoot without a second thought. So, am I going too far in my meticulousness (is that even a word?) and do I need to chill out, upgrade to a faster, more efficient press, and quit wasting time on mundane tasks that may or may not actually be buying anything? Or keep on keepin' on, slow and steady, but confident in my finished product that looks and chambers like factory-new ammo?
Not that I shoot thousands of rounds a year...most shooting sessions only have me firing off a couple hundred rounds max, and I can easily load that single stage in an hour or so.
What do you guys do, and are you confident in the finished product? Have you encountered any issues when really cranking out ammo?
I think the Lee app press could speed up your production without giving up the cleanliness and quality that you getting on your rock chucker. Still didn’t get mine but there are a bunch of videos that look like case prepping is a snap.

[rbuck351]

Only you can answer your question but do a test. Load some without any prep work other than cleaning the brass and see if it makes any difference in the way it works. If it works better it may be worth it. If not, maybe looks are important enough to you for the extra time and effort. I'm not a good enough shot nor do I have equipment good enough to notice a difference in accuracy. I get a 5/8" group at 100yds with my best hunting rifle with or without all the fancy prep work so other than cleaning the brass good enough to remove abrasives I don't get to carried away.

[jsizemore]

You may notice, if you ain't looking at your nice shiny rounds, that the guys whooping your butt at the match have not so shiny rounds and spent their gained time shooting instead of polishing. I shot against a national champ that loaded for 3 individuals guns on a Dillon he'd automated. Most times he beat me by a shot or 2. I tried backing off on my "necessary" reloading routine and the groups didn't get any bigger. You got to find for yourself what is "necessary" and what ain't. The guys that shoot the smallest groups in the world don't have a tumbler and primer pocket cleaner at the bench as they reload while they shoot.

[Burnt Fingers]

Which press?

Dillon 650s.

[onelight]

If loading 50 to 200 rounds a month combined of 5 or 6 different cartridges and you already have a good single stage press , and you want to give your full attention to each stage of the process and still speed it up my suggestion would be the Lee Classic turret They are about the most efficient press made for small runs of loading . The LCT could be used for any of the cartridges in your list as a manual or auto index , you can switch calibers including primer size faster than any press I am familiar with.
You can charge your cases with powder on the press with one of the Lee measures , or weigh and tickle and pour through the powder charge die , your choice. I like and use the priming on the press it has good feel feedback when seating primers. When decaping brass it is one of the better presses at catching the spent primers and waste. You can combine your current process or any parts of it and still save time in setup and the amount of times you have to handle the case.
I have basically settled on 3 presses my single stage , the Lee Classic Turret , and a progressive that is used for sessions of 500 or more rounds . The LCT is the the one I would keep if I could just have one it is a neat press , that it is also cheap is just icing on the cake.

[Walks]

I'm quite a bit like you.
I tumble only the same caliber cases together. Then sort and rebox them.
Decap and clean primer pockets.
Check length, trim as needed.
I have a powered Lyman trimmer and a Case Express behind it. So I can process a lot of sized/decapped cases pretty fast.
Then into the sonic cleaner. When dry, reboxed and ready to load.
Hand primed, loaded in lots of 20, 50, 60 or 100. Just depends on cartridge and box size.

All rifle ammo is loaded on a single-stage and powder charged by a Electronic Powder Measeure scale.
Exceptions are .44-40, .38-40 & .32-20. They get charged in a loading block with an RCBS Lil' Dandy and their powder levels checked by eye under a very good light. Then bullets seated & crimped on the RC.

The other exceptions are 5.56, .308 & .30-06 to be fired in a Military-Style Semi-Auto Rifles. They get prepped like ever other Rifle Cartridge, then charged and a bullet seated/crimped on a Hornady L-N-L Progressive. The Hornady L-N-L Drum type Powder Measure is very consistent.
I also watch the Drum/Arm of the PM move thru it's cycle EVERY time.

I Shot Cowboy for over 20yrs. I would
watch fellow Shooters at the loading table spin their Revolver cylinders to check for high primers. And more then one Rifle jam while shooting a stage because of a split case that bulges and then jammed going into the chamber.
These Shooters using dillon with no prior experience just had no Concept of case inspection or cleaning primer pockets.

Even when My Kids were young and Shooting 5-6 times a month, 1500rds a months. I still did case inspection and cleaned primer pockets.

Just raised by a Very Fine Bullseye Shooter.
To him every variable had to be minimized.

Still a good way to be.

[Lagamor]

A wet tumbler would get you the brass finish you like with a lot less effort.
You can stay on the Single Stage if you like. I like progressive for plinking ammo, it turns out respectible stuff.

[Captain*Kirk]

Some really great and informative replies here...thanks to all of you for your input and suggestions!
I have realized that for the moment, a progressive press is probably outside the envelope of my present needs and requirements, although a turret press like the RCBS Turret would very likely speed up production if brass prep was treated as a separate operation. I could possibly use a cheaper progressive for .380ACP and .44 mag ammo, but I seldom shoot more than 100 rounds of .44 in a session as it beats you up pretty good after 100 rounds. With my CF rifle cartridges I would still prefer to weigh each charge individually so the advantage of charging on the press becomes null and void in that case; a turret press would fill the void quite well (although there's nothing wrong with my Rock Chucker for that purpose).
Any horror stories I should be aware of from the major manufacturer's turret presses out there? (RCBS, Lyman, Redding, Lee, etc?) I do have a preference for RCBS gear and their turret is on sale right now at MidwayUSA.
I also intend to explore the wet tumbler/steel pins approach that was recommended for brass prep. Sounds like it would save me a bunch of time and brass handling?

[jmorris]

I have realized that for the moment, a progressive press is probably outside the envelope of my present needs and requirements, although a turret press like the RCBS Turret would very likely speed up production..


The only thing a turret press is going to do is keep all the dies together and set. You are still going to have to stroke the press once for every operation. 3 dies =3 strokes + a powder charge and priming, same as a single stage. Once the shell plate on a progressive is full, you get one loaded round with every stroke of the handle and powder charge and priming are included.

[Captain*Kirk]

Once the shell plate on a progressive is full, you get one loaded round with every stroke of the handle and powder charge and priming are included.

Good point.

Right now, on average, it takes me roughly an hour to load a box of 50 pistol rounds using my single stage press. It can get fairly tedious; after an hour or so I'm ready to quit, so loading a couple hundred rounds s generally done over the course of several evenings. Since I load in batches of 50, that means swapping dies on a single stage several times per batch, and two or three batches means swapping dies x two or three. I can see where a turret press might help in that regard. But it would sure be nice to pop a loaded round with every pull of the handle, if I could assure QC with regard to primer seating and powder charge.
Rifle rounds take longer due to meticulous weighing of each and every powder charge. I have the Chargemaster scale and powder measure and it takes longer for that to dump a charge than using my old 505.

[onelight]

The only thing a turret press is going to do is keep all the dies together and set. You are still going to have to stroke the press once for every operation. 3 dies =3 strokes + a powder charge and priming, same as a single stage. Once the shell plate on a progressive is full, you get one loaded round with every stroke of the handle and powder charge and priming are included.
You are absolutely right about 3 or 4 strokes on a turret but if one chooses to you can prime and dispense powder on turrets depending on your process you can load 50 44s and 50 9mm in 40 to 60 min total on a turret with out rushing watching each stage of the process carefully ,I could not come any where near that on a single stage.
That is slow compared to a progressive but really fast compared to a single stage.
And probably close to as fast as most progressives could be when you include the time to change from 44 to 9

[Taterhead]

Like jmorris, my rifle ammo takes two passes through the presses. One for sizing, the other for loading. I have sized a few thousand rifle cases on the progressive, but love the very consistent shoulder bump from the Rock Chucker.

I can say affirmatively that very straight ammo can be loaded progressively, as indicated by bullet runout.

In my case, total cartridge changeovers require about 150 seconds for the worst case. RCBS Pro 2000 is the press, and 10 cartridges are loaded on it.

[onelight]

I used to have 3 to 5 guys over a couple of times a month and we got to to shooting Garands and semi auto 308s and ARs not to mention the pistol ammo we were going through we would have 4 presses running at the same time , up to that point all my bottle neck rifle was loaded on a single stage after all that stopped I went back to the single stage for most of my rifle usually just 20 to 40 rounds a session I shoot mainly handguns the auto pistol rounds 9 , 40 , 45 and 38/357 on the progressive but for those I have thousands of cases so don't need to load for them as often . The 3 different 32 cartridges 380 , 2 44s and 45 colt I load 50 to a couple of hundred at a time those are all loaded on the turret press . We all find a system we like and I am not locked in to any thing this is just how I have been doing it the last few years , works for me but it is sure not the only way or necessarily the best way.
I always start with clean unsized deprimed brass , my final rinse on my brass has a little amourall ultra shine thanks to tips I got here , and it is all the extra lube any of my carbide dies need to run smooth , I have the rcbs bench primer I use for some rifle the rest is primed on the LCT or the progressive. I like all my presses they are certainly not the best equipment made but they do the job I want them to . Ain't life great :grin:

[jmorris]

Right now, on average, it takes me roughly an hour to load a box of 50 pistol rounds using my single stage press. It can get fairly tedious; after an hour or so I'm ready to quit...

On a progressive without case and bullet feed can load 100 rounds in under 10 minutes, if everything is ready to go. With case and bullet feed I can load 100 rounds in under 4 minutes and it’s less work than loading them more than twice as slow on the manual fed machines.

That said, either are much faster and a lot less work than using my turret or single stage presses.

[Captain*Kirk]

On a progressive without case and bullet feed can load 100 rounds in under 10 minutes, if everything is ready to go. With case and bullet feed I can load 100 rounds in under 4 minutes and it’s less work than loading them more than twice as slow on the manual fed machines.

That said, either are much faster and a lot less work than using my turret or single stage presses.

Do you ever feel like you don't have total control over the reloading process? I would worry that I missed a powder charge or didn't seat a primer correctly. With single stage, even though slow, I know that box of 50 is done right. Maybe once I had run a couple hundred through a progressive I would feel a bit more confident.

[onelight]

People use different ways to check powder charge , I use my eyes I look at every one before I set the bullet on it because I do it this way I don't use a bullet feeder. Many of the progressives give enough feedback when priming you can feel the primmer bottom out in the pocket then I do a final check on the primers when I box the loaded ammo. I don't try to set any speed records on my progressives even taking your time you get a loaded round each pull of the handle but they have learning curve once you get familiar with your press you can tell something is wrong by feel or sound in addition to sight.

[dverna]

You got some good advice about testing loads with anal case prep and not so anal case prep....and thrown vs weighed charges. Too much reading what "experts" write can send you down rabbit holes. IMHO, you are overdoing the case prep and wasting time weighing powder charges for pistol loads.

Cut down the "wasted" time and see how you feel about your production rates. Pistol ammunition is different than loading sub-MOA riffle ammunition. I have proven to myself that thrown charges and no case prep gives me an accuracy of 3" at 50 yards with pistol ammunition. I do not need any better than that. I am anal about rifle loading but I do not shoot much rifle so the time is not important. This year, because of the quantity of .223 we will be using, that will be loaded on a progressive if testing shows only a small increase in group size. I know match rifle teams that load on a progressive so I am confident it will not be an issue...but will test anyway.

[jmorris]

Do you ever feel like you don't have total control over the reloading process? I would worry that I missed a powder charge or didn't seat a primer correctly.

With case and bullet feeders all I am doing is paying attention to everything and stroking the handle. I use powder check dies that alert if the powder charge is incorrect.

They are sensitive enough to detect stepped cases even when the powder charge is spot on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EU9deSKm48&t=10s

[jmorris]

Even when I am not “in control” I have confidence in the end product, like with this machine I automated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU&t=6s

It doesn’t even rely on the attention of an operator.

[jmorris]

You can go as slow or as fast as you want to at that point but you turn on the collators, I always activate the powder check and low primer alarms before starting and then commence loading.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3hVi6PuduM&t=22s

Then pay attention to the process.

[Burnt Fingers]

Do you ever feel like you don't have total control over the reloading process? I would worry that I missed a powder charge or didn't seat a primer correctly. With single stage, even though slow, I know that box of 50 is done right. Maybe once I had run a couple hundred through a progressive I would feel a bit more confident.

Not at all. I load on a pair of Dillon 650s. The Dillon powder measure is very accurate. Once I have it set I don't bother to check it as I know it's going to be +/- .1 gr or less.

Primer seating is easy. Just make sure you firmly push up on the handle EVERY time.

It's really really hard to miss a powder charge. You have to deliberately short stroke the handle to make it happen. You can run a RCBS Lock Out die on the press. It will stop the press on a missed charge or a double charge. Double charges are only caused by extreme user error.

The biggest thing with a progressive press is to ALWAYS complete the handle stroke. Don't short stroke, don't double stroke. Go fully from front to back each time.

If ANYTHING interrupts this cycle clear the deck on the press and start over.

[Taterhead]

Do you ever feel like you don't have total control over the reloading process? I would worry that I missed a powder charge or didn't seat a primer correctly. With single stage, even though slow, I know that box of 50 is done right. Maybe once I had run a couple hundred through a progressive I would feel a bit more confident.

It is the same mindset, i.e. to know that the ammo is done right. Die setup is similarly crucial. The sensitivity when seating primers on my progressive is very high. Easy to feel the primer starting, bottoming out, and then the slight bit of crush that I like. No different than on a SS or hand priming tool. It is an engaged process.

Regarding charges, I eyeball every charge just like I would if metered from the standalone Uniflow. No difference in charge consistency if metered from a standalone Uniflow or from the Uniflow mounted on the progressive. Identical results. I don't need to hand weigh spherical or flake powders (except 800-X).

Last week I spot checked several 308 loads with SMK bullets and found that it would have been very difficult to improved concentricity on a SS.

Now, ammo that I feed big extruded powder, like IMR 4350, will be dropped and trickled and loaded SS. But I would still use the APS priming on my press to act like a bench primer. It is that good.

You are right that some hands on experience, first setting up the dies, and then operating the press, would give a lot more confidence in the outcome.

[nccaster77]

The most progressive I’m willing to go is my turret RCBS press. I totally get the automated when feeding volumes of brass thru the chamber. But alas. I just don’t shoot that much. Very impressive set ups. Too bad ATF won’t let up in manufacturing laws so you guys could produce for the open market. But then again looks like sooner than later we’re gonna have to take a stand. “Virginia” !!

[Ickisrulz]

Along the same lines, how are progressives with traditionally lubed bullets? In my specific case I pan lube and am a bit messy. I have to remove my seating die every 200-300 cartridges to clean the wax off or I will have seating issues. Do you progressive guys have similar problems?

[Captain*Kirk]

The most progressive I’m willing to go is my turret RCBS press. I totally get the automated when feeding volumes of brass thru the chamber. But alas. I just don’t shoot that much. Very impressive set ups. Too bad ATF won’t let up in manufacturing laws so you guys could produce for the open market. But then again looks like sooner than later we’re gonna have to take a stand. “Virginia” !!

Just ordered the RCBS turret press...

[Taterhead]

Along the same lines, how are progressives with traditionally lubed bullets? In my specific case I pan lube and am a bit messy. I have to remove my seating die every 200-300 cartridges to clean the wax off or I will have seating issues. Do you progressive guys have similar problems?

That would be true with progressives too. Dillon desiged their seating and crimp dies with this in mind. The die bodies stay locked in place on the tool head. By removing a clip, the die internals are easily removed for cleaning. Then they are clippes right back into place with the settings proeserved.

[Burnt Fingers]

That would be true with progressives too. Dillon desiged their seating and crimp dies with this in mind. The die bodies stay locked in place on the tool head. By removing a clip, the die internals are easily removed for cleaning. Then they are clippes right back into place with the settings proeserved.

Yep. The Dillon seat and crimp dies are the best.

You settings don't change due to the die body staying in place. Pull one clip and the guts come right out. Also the seating stem is reversible. Round nose on one end, flat on the other. You can also get a SWC seating stem that indexes on the shoulder.

[Captain*Kirk]

jmorris, those videos are awesome! I'll bet you have quite a bundle invested in all that.

[dverna]

That would be true with progressives too. Dillon desiged their seating and crimp dies with this in mind. The die bodies stay locked in place on the tool head. By removing a clip, the die internals are easily removed for cleaning. Then they are clippes right back into place with the settings proeserved.

One reason I only buy Dillon dies for loading pistol ammunition.

Ickisrulz, you might want to try BLL. It will not be as messy as pan lubing and it is faster. PC'ing is another way to address the problem if you have a place to cook the bullets.

[onelight]

Just ordered the RCBS turret press...
Good for you , it should serve you well as long as you want to load.

[nccaster77]

Just ordered the RCBS turret press...

You’ll luv it. I slow down for rifle loads but churn out pistol loads.

[nccaster77]

One reason I only buy Dillon dies for loading pistol ammunition.

Ickisrulz, you might want to try BLL. It will not be as messy as pan lubing and it is faster. PC'ing is another way to address the problem if you have a place to cook the bullets.

Then there is the ultimate “lube”.......swaging. I’ve had a blast the last few years focused strictly on .45 cal. Swaging both jackets with cores and cut .40 cases with cores. Fun stuff. It’s fun confusing shooters when I lay down a completed swaged .40 case projectile with primer intact. Love that initial look they give me.

[Catch22]

I'm similar to you in regards to being a bit OCD about my brass and prep. I likely do things differently than a lot of guys, but here's my method...

All of my brass gets decapped with a universal die on the Rockchucker. I wet tumble with chips and a small squirt of Dawn. After drying, I dry tumble in walnut or cob with a squirt of car polish/wax. Brass is clean and looks good by the end of the process.

The rounds I use more for plinking and am less concerned about sub-MOA accuracy at 100+ I most typically load on my Loadmaster. I prime off-press in a Lee auto bench primer and have the primer system removed on the Loadmaster. I tend to check the first 5-10 rounds each on powder, then every 10th or so when I'm satisfied I'm getting consistent throws. I hand-set the projectiles so I can peak into the case to make sure powder looks good. If I have any concern whatsoever, I'll dump it into the scale and make sure.

For my more accurate rounds, I still load on the Rockchucker. I have a tray and measure out each load and work in a process where I size them all, trim, prime (again, on the bench primer), drop powder and seat the bullet (I seat directly after the drop on each round so as not to double-drop or miss one), then crimp them all (if I crimp that particular caliber).

It fits my being particular about certain things and has worked well for me so far.

[Ickisrulz]

One reason I only buy Dillon dies for loading pistol ammunition.

Ickisrulz, you might want to try BLL. It will not be as messy as pan lubing and it is faster. PC'ing is another way to address the problem if you have a place to cook the bullets.

I've used BLL and have the same issues, just longer into the process. I like Carnuba Red and realize if I seat and crimp in different stages it helps to go longer before I have to clean also. I have thought about PC, but not sure I want to tackle that.

I was just curious how the progressive guys got around the waxed up dies (and did 1,000 rounds at a time). I know I'm not the only one with the issue as I see other posts from time to time asking how to clean them.

[Winger Ed.]

[QUOTE=I was just curious how the progressive guys got around the waxed up dies (and did 1,000 rounds at a time). I know I'm not the only one with the issue as I see other posts from time to time asking how to clean them.[/QUOTE]

It's not that big a deal.
Keep a eye on the OAL by measuring on here & there, or when you refill the primers.
If they're getting shorter, dig around up in the seater die with a 'Q' tip.

[jmorris]

The Dillon dies have clips , so you can remove the seater, clean and reinstall without changing any adjustment and dry quickly.

[onelight]

Yup the Dillon seating die is slick the way it comes apart , great design.

[dverna]

I've used BLL and have the same issues, just longer into the process. I like Carnuba Red and realize if I seat and crimp in different stages it helps to go longer before I have to clean also. I have thought about PC, but not sure I want to tackle that.

I was just curious how the progressive guys got around the waxed up dies (and did 1,000 rounds at a time). I know I'm not the only one with the issue as I see other posts from time to time asking how to clean them.

I have run 10's of thousands of commercial cast bullets with hard lube and not had many issues. But even with hard lubes, I have to clean the seating die as build up happens eventually. I have not tracked it, but I go over 5000 rounds before cleaning out the seating die. I know a lot people do not like the hard lubes so it not a universal answer.

You may want to consider selling your current dies and getting the Dillon set. Not a lot of money difference for the ease of operation they provide.

[onelight]

I use Lee RCBS and Redding and Lyman dies and it is not that difficult to pull the the seating stem to clean it .
Dillons design is nice but it's not that big a deal with any that I have at least for the volumes of the bullets I load.
If you have to clean your die very often your leaving to much lube on you bullet nose.

[Ickisrulz]

I have run 10's of thousands of commercial cast bullets with hard lube and not had many issues. But even with hard lubes, I have to clean the seating die as build up happens eventually. I have not tracked it, but I go over 5000 rounds before cleaning out the seating die. I know a lot people do not like the hard lubes so it not a universal answer.

You may want to consider selling your current dies and getting the Dillon set. Not a lot of money difference for the ease of operation they provide.

I will keep all of this in mind. Thank you for the input.

[Ickisrulz]

If you have to clean your die very often your leaving to much lube on you bullet nose.

There's no doubt about that!

[rbuck351]

I use a Star lube sizer which leaves the boolit lube only in the groove where it belongs. Since getting the Star I now longer have to clean out the seating die.

[Ickisrulz]

I use a Star lube sizer which leaves the boolit lube only in the groove where it belongs. Since getting the Star I now longer have to clean out the seating die.

Does the Star unit do better than the RCBS/Lyman lube sizers in this respect?

[rbuck351]

Yep. I also have an rcbs and a Lyman 45 and had a lyman 450. The, star when properly adjusted, puts lube only in the lube groove and it's a pass through sizer. It's not the best for installing gas checks but controls lube very well.