My Secret to HV Cast

[Bass Ackward]

HV Cast always stirs a debate and I wanted to ask myself why? My experience comes down to experience at pushing soft lead to do more before I harden. That's how I found it. Now how does "my" thought process work?

I have explained the wine glass theory many times. The harder you push, the greater the volume and the faster you go, the higher the pitch or vibration. That's our barrel. At cast velocities, pressure is low and vibration is minimized, so cast accuracy is easy and available across a wide spectrum. Well guess what. It's the same with jacketed. It's just that we don't waste jacketed for this purpose. And most casters don't waste lead when they have jacketed available. Because of this many develop a false RPM limit theory. So, both grounds go unexplored which would make ALL of this easier to understand.

With jacketed we all pretty much realize the our barrel vibrates and we tune the load to exit the barrel at the same point in this cycle. Then we learn that if we fire at a higher or slower rate and warm our barrel that our groups are gonna change probably for the worse, but sometimes better. I find the EXACT same with cast. No difference. Except that we have another variable to account for here. Lube and bullet hardness work hand in hand to control friction and thus the oscillation rate of my barrel. The difference in my thought process between jacketed and cast is 180 degrees opposite.

With jacketed I don't have to concern myself with my bullet and I just strive to get consistent ignition and barrel times to produce good accuracy. With cast, I must think of my bullet and I tune the barrel oscillation to the limit my bullet will withstand. There are a whole host of tricks here that do that and EVERY .... SINGLE .... ONE are designed to control pressure. Not RPMs.

The faster the twist rate, the more resistance the bullet will have to forward motion. The heavier the bullet, the more resistance to forward motion. The smaller the case capacity the faster pressure is going to come up. All of these will raise pressure and lower the options available for top end velocity for cast. Jacketed guys knew this for years. So when they wanted more velocity than a 30/30 could produce, they built a larger case to elongate the pressure curve. In my mind, I do the same. I know that everyone here knows this. What I am trying to show is how I approach it so you can understand my thought processes. RPMs for me are simply a coincidence that as velocity goes up, so do RPMS. Just like the sun coming up every day.

There are three ways to shoot cast. First, is shooting cast at low pressure with fast powders. Pressure rises immediately and begins to drop so the bullet coasts on out. That causes less barrel vibration as it travels out the tube.

The next method I used to list last and that is to mold hard and simply raise the pressure to what the bullet will withstand. Match the hardness to the pressure. But the problem there is that logic only gets you so far if you can't reach the next harmonic node. You reach a limit. Your accuracy doesn't, so you say, RPMs got me when it was really barrel vibration or bullet deformation that stopped you. Harmonics simply made it more difficult.

The third way is to shoot softer cast at the same pressures as in the first method, but to bring the pressure curve up slowly. The exact same logic used with larger case capacities for jacketed. This is the key step. If you have shot cast using methods one and two and believe in them wholeheartedly, then you will have difficulty with this thought process. This is where the game is won or lost. You learn to use lube and hardness together to .... tune "THE BARREL" to the load. Sometimes, the key can be to go to a SOFTER metal to tune friction and bring the barrel to the load.

Sometimes you may not have enough drive area from the lands to do this. That can be too short of rifling or too few of rifling. TOO wide of rifling can be just as much an impediment to forward motion as too fast of a twist. Sometimes your barrel may just not have the interior finish to do this. So I have guns that do put lower limits on me. By that I mean, I can only go so soft before the game ends and I don't have a wide enough window with which to operate with. Then I have to change variables and maybe go to a lighter bullet yet.

To be continued:

[dubber123]

Interesting read, I'm just getting into cast for rifles, (started about 5 years ago), and immediately saw it isn't the same game as pistol shooting with cast. Alot of your findings may take some of the mystery out of it for me.

[Bret4207]

Bass- Ever play with the German Mauser stepped barrels? The steps were to reduce vibration. Might be an addition to your discussion. Good read, keep going. You make sense.

[BruceB]

I do believe I'll go make some popcorn to watch the show with.....

[Bass Ackward]

So in some cases, by going to a harder bullet, you increase the initial pressure dynamics enough that pressure comes up quicker and as a result even the harder bullet CAN NOT be driven any faster or has to have pressure / velocity cut to go back to the last accuracy node. When this happens, you can say, RPMs got me and give up. When it was really pressure and the rate that that pressure came up that really got got you.

Now thee are a whole lot of techniques that can be used to alter pressure rate increase and we all know them, but one is using a lighter primer to slow the burn rate just enough in some cases to allow a softer bullet to accelerate with a softer curve that the base stays intact.

A BIG ONE that people seldom think of is bullet quality. Molding base pour bullets always means that the chances for defects which weaken the bullet occur in the base. The longer and smaller the diameter, the harder the bullet is to mold well. Taking a bullet from a larger bore diameter and sizing it down using a base first method keeps the base square as these voids are crush filled under controlled conditions. As a results in a stronger bullet to take increased pressure from say, a faster twist rate than even the hardest molded bullet molded base pour will endure. So I get less fliers to contend with having stronger and better balanced bullets as a result.

So the list of steps that I take for accuracy is different based upon caliber, gun type, bullet design, pressure rate (small cases vs larger ones) etc. But if you mold poor quality bullets in the base area especially, you are toast and will get a flier at a lower RPM than someone else. If your rifling height is a factor, learn to live with it. Or if you have pits, you may need a harder bullet that will limit top end. Your RPM level will be lower than the next guys. So while you can take load data from the first step and with only a minor powder charge adjustment, make it shoot well, you can't do that as you go on up.

You must strive to learn your rifle and work around the the limitations that " it " dictates to you. Or .... learn how to take steps to work around things that are limiting you and improve your chances for success. Think of how to cut or elongate pressure. Whether or not that is improving bore smoothing or dimensions. Or getting a better lube. If you do not want to change technique or play with humteen variables, then you are limited to the first two options and the accuracy limitations that go along with those. The RPM Monster will have gotten you.

The real limiter to cast? Bullet lube. It changes characteristics based upon temperature. SO if you NEED lube to work the balance magic, you will be constantly changing the balance as temperatures raises or lowers. The Best cast bullet accuracy at higher than cast bullet velocities will always be at higher temps because loads worked up in that environment will have thinner lube that allows the bullet to deal with it better. (Catch that Pat?) Lube always acts as a fouling meaning that it can be good right up until it sizes down a bullet causing it to strip. So while the bullet is getting more lube between it and the bore (which some people believe is a good thing if you are a seal theorist) you actually lesson the bullets top end capability.

BIG KEY POINT: If you look at lube as a sealant, you will always accept a lower velocity (RPM limit)threshold than someone who doesn't.

So RPMs eventually gets everybody in the end, to include me. Whether that is 40,000 RPMs with 14 BHN, PB bullets in a handgun. Or 200,000 in a rifle which I have not been able to beat .... yet. I do far better with HV in warmer weather. Often when I quote velocity, that fact is not always mentioned. but because I refuse to heat up my barrel to abuse my rifles throat, I must learn how to deal with lube as the limiting factor. I don't have any problems with lead until it starts to melt in air which occurs somewhere between 3200 and 3500 fps depending on meplat size and humidity levels.


OK. Right or wrong, now you understand .... where I am coming from on several key points over the years. While I can't prove my theories, my RPM level says that there must be something to them. When I .... preach a point, you must understand my entire train of thought to derive benefit from what I am telling you or my advice is useless. My techniques for doing this are too numerous to list here and change all the time.

The real enemy to cast is ALWAYS pressure and the real OBSTACLE is ALWAYS bullet lube that alters friction (changed by temperature) which alters harmonics. And as fouling causes RPM failure and stripping at lower levels because of it. My thinking 180 degrees out from jacketed to altering harmonics with bullet hardness and lube viscosity to work accurately within the twist rate limitation (RPM) of my load widens my chances for finding success at higher velocities. A PIA for some, and a definite disadvantage to jacketed, but it can be done. Once understood, "I believe" that this understanding helps me achieve higher velocities with softer lead at handgun levels and everywhere from that point right on up. Which is why I always beat and dislike that 1,422 hardness chart as well. (false limiter)

So for me, how long you have been shooting cast or how good of a reloader you are means little, to simplify it down to RPMs barriers or lube sealers or hardness charts eliminates options for improvement and accepts barriers that reinforces stereotypes.

[Bass Ackward]

So .... if you at least understand my theory, you can then realize that the best way to to build a cast unfriendly gun would be to take a small bore diameter. Put a fast twist to it. Use a small for bore (underbore) case capacity. Have a larger diameter throat that would need a large bullet for good alignment. Then harden your bullet so it took more pressure to size it. Have a long throat that required a 2lb cruise missile. And try to shoot fast powders. That's as bad as it can get. Sound familiar to anyone? (6.5X55 Carlina)

Now to make it better, I would cut a small diameter throat that was short so I could shoot as light a bullet as possible. It would be easier to mold well too. Then increase the case capacity to just slightly overbore and use as slow a powders as I needed. This setup would allow me to see exactly WHERE the RPM level was and not a false pressure level that I blamed on RPMs. But still I could then slow my twist rate even more so pressure wasn't killing me. (6.5-06)

[Larry Gibson]

"So RPMs eventually gets everybody in the end, to include me"

Well thank you Bass!

Now if you will go back and read and understand what I and others have said; with NORMAL cast bullet loads it is RPMs that will dictate the level at which accuracy deteriorates. Now Joe sent me an email still stating he can "hit the target" at HV. Well so what...so can I and so can every one else. The point is "How well you hit the target" i.e. ACCURACY. Don't get offended here when I call all the steps you describe as essoteric. They are far more detailed steps than most cast bullet shooters want to do. Now I have done all those essoteric steps over the years and most recently with your specific assistance and help using your LBT bullet in a very accurate 30-06 with a 1-10" twist barrel. I even used your bullets that you cast with your lube. I ran them every which way you said to, tried every powder you said to, tried the primers you said to and set the AOL as you said to and you know what? Accuracy still decreased at the RPM threshold. With the medium (3031, 4895) and slow powders (4831, RL19, RL22, 4350) the best accuracy was always in the 1700-1900 fps range. That is 122,400 to 136,800 RPM out of that 1-10" twist '06.

I will say I did get some "accuracy" at 2400-2600 fps ((2500 fps = 180,000 RPM out of the 10" twist barrel) but it was not the best accuracy that bullet was capable of in that rifle. Using 5 shot groups at 100 yards at 1872 fps (around 134,000 rpm) your LBT bullet shot right at 1" with 4895. With RL19, RL22, H4831SC and IMR4350 with velocities in the 2400-2600 fps range accuracy ran from 2.5" to 4.75" groups. I could not duplicate the 2.5" group consistantly and that load ran groups from 2.5 to 4.7". Over 2600 fps, with all powders but RL19, accuracy went to over 8" groups. Again I am not saying you can not get ANY accuracy at HV but am saying that you will not get the best accuracy. It is RPM that limits the accuracy because it accentuates to defects in the bullets. That causes yaw and pitching in the bullet. Both of those are detrimental to best accuracy.

When someone posts; "Gee my 311291 out of my '06 shoots really good at 1800 fps or so giving me 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yards. I want to use it for hunting and am using ACWWs with 50% lead added. I've tried 4350 and RL19 will 4831 help? When I bump it up to 2400 fps the groups open to 4 to 6". How come? You can talk barrel nodes, lubes and different alloys all you want and that guys is still not going to get his 311291 to shoot 1 1/2 - 2" groups at 100 yards at 2400 fps no matter what kind of essoteric tricks he tries. It is the increased RPM that has caused the loss of accuracy period and "got him" as you so rightly state.

Larry Gibson.

[Pat I.]

That was an excellent and thourough explanation but there's a few questions I have to ask. First and foremost what do you consider accuracy? Not based on one group but at the very least the aggregate of four five shot groups at 100 yds. What velocity are you talking about being able to achieve? What calibers and twists have you tried it in successfully.

I'm not a lube sealant theorist and do believe lube quality, quantity,and consistancy can make or break a load but think I could show you a lot of examples where reasonable temperature
fluctuations didn't make that much of a difference.

Thanks, Pat

[felix]

Pat, I think what accuracy in this conversation is more like how round the groups are, and are they what is realistically expected for the trials. We must always keep in mind how the boolits stay together at rotation. Those which are mo'betta' balanced at the RPM threshold will out-round those groups which are not made with boolits other than not perfectly round (consistent) at the target. This has to do with how the boolits accelerate, and how much the boolits are obturated on the back, sides and front inclusively. So, you can see that lube plays a role here as well, because we have to consider how the sides obturate. ... felix

[crabo]

An obvious question, but I assume by RPMs you are talking revolutions per minute and the faster the bullet is going the more rpms? And I also assume that twist would affect rpms, although you can't change that easily.

[felix]

You got it! RPM's are a thing we can measure, but the other boolit variables which make the RPM as a practical indicator are the make-it or break-it functions at the target. Taking the air resistance out of the equation, like shooting in outer space, the twist itself would be very much out of the question to what we are trying to get at. Unfortunately, down here we have to deal with RPM because that is what destroys a boolit by pulling it apart, and, unfortunately again, RPM is needed to make the boolit to even get to the target. For example, you can over-twist a genuine BR bullet (full target bench rest gun bullet) by quite a bit before you can notice a strong degrade in terms of varmint applications. The softer the boolits, including the jacket material thickness, as in intentional varmint bullets, the more those bullets will get out of kilter and become more seriously range dependent. ... felix

[Pat I.]

Pat, I think what accuracy in this conversation is more like how round the groups are, and are they what is realistically expected for the trials. We must always keep in mind how the boolits stay together at rotation. Those which are mo'betta' balanced at the RPM threshold will out-round those groups which are not made with boolits other than not perfectly round (consistent) at the target. This has to do with how the boolits accelerate, and how much the boolits are obturated on the back, sides and front inclusively. So, you can see that lube plays a role here as well, because we have to consider how the sides obturate. ... felix

Actually all I'm asking is how accurate are the high velocity loads BA shoots. I'd be a lot happier with a 1750 fps one inch group than a 2600 fps 6 inch group. Velocity for velocities sake alone is useless. I have to give this a good read because I just breezed through it but it's nice to discuss without trying to piss each other off.

[Char-Gar]

How come in all of this theory, nobody has posted a pic of groups? If not a pic at least some measurments, load details etc. etc. etc.. It is all just talk until sombody can produce targets to back up his theory.

IN all of this talk about what can be done, I would like to see what has been done. It is just all dueling theories until somebody goes to the range and offers proof..

[45 2.1]

How come in all of this theory, nobody has posted a pic of groups? If not a pic at least some measurments, load details etc. etc. etc.. It is all just talk until sombody can produce targets to back up his theory.

IN all of this talk about what can be done, I would like to see what has been done. It is just all dueling theories until somebody goes to the range and offers proof..

You wanted a picture. Here is what happens when you fit a boolit correctly.

[felix]

Charles, looks like Bob has produced a heart shaped group. Yeah, you gotta' have heart to play. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Bolbby that is a good start..now show me some more shot on the same day with the same load.

[Pat I.]

I'll post pictures of the only targets I have. The group target is from an August post I wrote on the CBA forum about barrel cooling and I just copied and pasted it here. The other ones from earlier this month. These aren't hand picked or anything and the barrel's only been on the gun for a couple of months so they're all I have.

The group target's four 100 yd. five shot groups plus a five shot warm up in the lower left using my Shilen barreled 17 twist 30x47 bench gun. Cases are formed Rem. 300 Savage with a .327 loaded diameter to run in the .328 chamber neck, WW primers, 39.5 grs of VV135, .960 long LBT 170 gr .5 radius ogive bullet tapered in a .310x1 1/2 degree incl. die to match the throat and sized .3097. Bullet has one .070 lube groove plus the one over the check. Alloy is oven treated WW with a dash of tin and a splash of shot 35 BNH. I'm pretty sure I've gotten the flyers under control by loosening up my grip on the gun and mixing a little transmission fluid into the LBT lube to soften it up. Chronographed velocity is 2575

The second target from this month is a 200 yd score target which explains only 4 shots per bull. Since it's a score target they're not four shot groups but one shot on each bull four times around the target. Everything's the same as above except this time I used a .890 long 155 gr LBT bullet with the .5 radius ogive, upped the charge to 40 grs, and because the gun was acting up in the cold weather I was shooting in removed the lube from the groove and just left it over the check. Velocity is 2650.

I've proven to myself that you can shoot fast using a slow twist barrel but even though I've tried I can't get it to work with a fast twist. I have 10, 11, 13, 14, and this 17 twist 30 caliber barrels fitted to this gun and have found that starting at around 1850 fps for the ten twist you can gain about 100 fps for 1 every one turn reduction in twist rate and still maintain good accuracy but if you try pushing them much faster the groups start opening up.

I really don't have an agenda and if I could have gotten a bullet to go fast with a 10 twist I would have done it to help beat the wind but in my case and with what I know I couldn't make it work wiithout losing accuracy.

[Larry Gibson]

How come in all of this theory, nobody has posted a pic of groups? If not a pic at least some measurments, load details etc. etc. etc.. It is all just talk until sombody can produce targets to back up his theory.

IN all of this talk about what can be done, I would like to see what has been done. It is just all dueling theories until somebody goes to the range and offers proof..

Charger

I mentioned the cartridge the bullet, the powder and the group sizes in my post to Bass.

Let me show you a very atypical series of groups that show best accuracy and the detrimental efects of RPM. Now in case Bass wants to critisize the bullet or alloy or lube or the powder or the primer let me say this very same bullet with all the same other componants shoots just as well at pretty much the same RPM in my Palma 14" twist .308 but at a much higher velocity of 2520 fps.

Here's a photo of four 10 shot targets shot with my 308 CBC cartridge (shown to the left of the 308 Win case) at 100 yards. The rifle is a M1916 Oviedo that I put a new 2 groove '06 barrel on. The rifle has been converted to cock on closing and has a lock time comparable to a M70. It also sports a civilian trigger set at 2 lbs. The rifle has a 4X Weaver on it. The bullet used is 311291 cast of 1-3 (line- range lead) and WQ'd out of the mould. BHN is about 25. The bullets are not pre sorted but are only inspected visually for defects. GCs are Hornady's and the lube is Javelina. Powder is 1 gr increasing increments of milsurp 4895 with a dacron filler from 25 gr through 28 gr. The top left group with 25 gr is 1.64" and is indicative of what this load in this rifle will shoot all day long. The velocity/RPM is 1840/ 132,533. Top right group with 26 gr is 2.31". Velocity/RPM is 1972/142,040. The bottom left group is with 27 gr and is 2.3" Velocity/RPM is 2047/147,442. The bottom right group is where accuracy REALLY goes south and is with 28 gr. Velocity/RPM is 2182/157,166. Note the bottom left hole and top right hole of that group are out of round and indicate severe wobble. Now I have pushed that bullet faster in the CBC rifle with slower powders (RL19 and H4831SC but the figurse remain pretty constant. Accuracy goes south above 135,000 RPM. As with Pat I> I have .308s in 10, 12 and 14" twist barrels and I find the exact same thing he does.

Now the photo I've posted is a very typical string of groups that most all of you will identify with having shot a .30 cal with a 1-10" twist. As Bass said; RPM get's ya.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

Larry,

Your case doesn't look much different than my 30x47, about 30-30 capacity, and if you ever get the chance you should really try some 135 in it followed by 748. Jacketed Hunter Class Shooters use 135 pretty regularly in the 30x47 but I couldn't find any when I got this thing put together so tried 3031, 332, 335, 4895, Benchmark, and Varget but it didn't come alive until I got hold of some 135. I've since bought some 748 but haven't had a chance to try it yet. Hopefully it'll work as well because it's cheaper and a lot easier to find.

[45 2.1]

Bolbby that is a good start..now show me some more shot on the same day with the same load.

If you look at the boolit weight and type, you'll see that its meant to hunt with, and the charge is meant to hunt heavy game. Not exactly something you want to sit and shoot all afternoon. The object was to get first shot hits, anywhere anytime, not an excersize in manageing the rifle for heat. I will say that the mechanical accuracy holds up, but the body doesn't nearly as well under the pounding you get from these loads. Is this pursuit a trap or benchrest match or something else? If you want to shoot CBA matches, they offer quite a few, but thats something i've done and am not interested in anymore. More interesting things occupy me these days.

H.M. Pope said the 4570 wouldn't shoot. He was wrong on that score.

[Bret4207]

Holy crap Pat! I thought you were down in the gutter with me and the rest of the unwashed! I'd say you should be doing some of the talking here, or elsewhere, as opposed to just asking questions. I think we've been sandbagged guys!

FWIW- My interest in this is academic mostly as I'm not a HV guy. 2000 fps with a 190gr booilt from 303 Savage or 30WCF is about the upper limit for me. But I've picked up more in this short thread, from both points of view, than I have in years of "1 hole" wallet group bragging. Keep going boys. You're doing something good here.

[Bass Ackward]

Larry,

30-06 with a 150 grain jacketed bullet and 4895 powder. 40 grains has accuracy at 1 1/4", 41 opens, 42, is the same, 43 comes back in at about 1 3/4", 44 opens 45 opens more, 46 opens WIDE 4", 47 comes back down, 48, comes in again, and 49 grains is peek accuracy again at about 1/2". If you notice, the lower velocity only required 3 grains to open and come back in. As the pressure and friction increased the harmonic resonance of my barrel went to 6 grains variance. Change primer and that changes back to 3 grain swings but accuracy never get's below an inch.

But when I shoot jacketed, fouling and temperature alter groups. And not every bullet shoot sub MOA in my gun either. Those same 150s can be 1/2" or 1 1/2" after 20 shots.

Let's not exaggerate either. There was only about 25 or 30 in that bunch of bullets I sent you. That wasn't enough to even play around with seating depth properly little alone jump around from powder to powder. And seating depth would have made all the difference at the 2 to 3" group level. Small moves are required at those levels. Certainly, you aren't trying to tell me all factory jacketed loads shoot the same in all your guns? Why should cast be any different? But jumping around is exactly the WRONG methodology to tune with 30 cast bullets.

Larry. Here is the offer. Next spring, send me your gun and I will do it for you. And I will tell you if it's possible with that gun or not. Detailed. Coarse you pay the shipping both ways.

Pat,

Accuracy? The 2600 fps load is my summer ground hog load. Above 80 degrees firing slow its 1" for maybe 20 rounds before fouling builds. Some groups are better, some a little worse. Fired faster, it opens to maybe 2". Does the same with jacketed. It's a sporter barrel. At 50 degrees, it goes to 6" groups. I can tune that if I lighten the engrave on my bullet and thin the lube, but 4" is the best I can get at 50 degrees. Might need to harden my bullet a little.

That was what I was meaning about shooting CBA year round and shooting cool. Would invoke a hole new thought process into the cast game. It would put more variables (besides money) into the outcome. For those folks that don't know how bench rest matches are shot, care to enlighten us?

[Bass Ackward]

Dang senility.

[Pat I.]

I certainly don't and wouldn't expect to get the accuracy out of a sporter rifle that someone could get out of a full blown bench gun but the mechanics are going to be the same. It sounds like there's a little problem because I posted pictures of a couple of targets and explained the loads but it was asked and I complied. Personal interests have nothing to do with it. I like bench guns someone else might like handguns others like military guns, what difference does it make. I could have posted pictures I shot with a handgun if I had any but would need a 4x8 piece of poster board to show all the hits but that wouldn't necessarily mean what I do is more interesting. Money and equipment have nothing to do with getting cast bullets to shoot and I have to jump just as many hurdles, if not more, to get them to shoot.

Just because someone doesn't claim every group they shoot is 1/2 inch doesn't necessarily mean that they don't know what they're taking about or haven't tried a lot of the things discussed. They just know that if they say things like that and are honest with themselves the next time out they won't be able to get under an inch to save their life.

I'm not trying to usurp anyone's standings here and am willing to listen and try new ideas because what the heck is there to lose but really don't like being told I'm stupid because I don't believe in bragging. I've tried that in the past and every time ended up eating the words when put to the test.

[44man]

Bass has gone into depth with very good information and many of us have gone the route. But I still have to go with 45 2.1's way. FIT THE BOOLIT! And that goes for matching the boolit to the twist rate also so the velocity, RPM's and downrange stability (And yes, barrel vibration consistancy.) can be attained. Cast is no different then jacketed in that regard. I don't see anyone trying to get a 90 gr .223 bullet to shoot from a 1 in 12 twist or a 40 gr to shoot from a 1 in 9 twist. A 560 gr in the 45-70 with a 1 in 20 twist will give you fits too.
Most cast shooters ignore this and just buy a mold because it looks like a good boolit or someone tells him it shoots good from their rifle which might different but the same caliber.
All of what Bass explains goes for naught if you are outside the envelope to start with. Some twist rates/caliber will support a wide range of boolit lengths and can be worked with and we all know for a fact that the velocity with each is different, some can be pushed, others can't. Changing hardness, lubes, barrel vibration etc, will not make a boolit stable if the RPM's it needs to fly to all ranges can't be attained, either overspun or underspun. Once a boolit matches the gun close, then what Bass says will come into play.
All of the answers here reflect that fact.

[Bass Ackward]

I certainly don't and wouldn't expect to get the accuracy out of a sporter rifle that someone could get out of a full blown bench gun but the mechanics are going to be the same. It sounds like there's a little problem because I posted pictures of a couple of targets and explained the loads but it was asked and I complied. Personal interests have nothing to do with it. I like bench guns someone else might like handguns others like military guns, what difference does it make. I could have posted pictures I shot with a handgun if I had any but would need a 4x8 piece of poster board to show all the hits but that wouldn't necessarily mean what I do is more interesting. Money and equipment have nothing to do with getting cast bullets to shoot and I have to jump just as many hurdles, if not more, to get them to shoot.


Pat,

I think you miss the point. I have no problem with cast bullet benchrest competition. To each his own.

Cold shooting puts me on a fairly equal level with their accuracy and I can go on up with velocity. And my groups don't get wind flags or anything else. Then when it was done in competition, it would have viability and competitent people may take it farther than I have.

[45 2.1]

Now Joe sent me an email still stating he can "hit the target" at HV. Well so what...so can I and so can every one else. The point is "How well you hit the target" i.e. ACCURACY. Larry Gibson.

Ya know, I get some of those same e-mails and that isn't quite what he said. He said he got what "you" consider to be accuracy. Nor is it his style to say something like what you quoted as he is quite to the point about such things. Makes me wonder about what else has been said. I really hate to see someone miss-represented when they aren't allowed a voice in the matter.

[Larry Gibson]

Ya know, I get some of those same e-mails and that isn't quite what he said. He said he got what "you" consider to be accuracy. Nor is it his style to say something like what you quoted as he is quite to the point about such things. Makes me wonder about what else has been said. I really hate to see someone miss-represented when they aren't allowed a voice in the matter.


45 2.1

Before you question my veracity in public you should verify your facts; here is the EXACT quote from Joe's email to me that I referred to;

"Explain to me how I can push a 70 gr normal alloy water harden bullet out of my 1-7 twist AR15 at over 3100 fps and stay on the target."

Now I said "hit the target" and Joe said "stay on the target". Kindly explain to me the difference? I did not misrepresent anything Joe said. I've just had several email exchanges with him this very morning including one concerning the above quote. I emailed Joe's statement back to him and he does not deny that is what he said nor does he disagree with what I said about it. "hitting a target" or "staying on target" is not a measurement of accuracy. Joe and I agree on what is "accuracy" to us and discussed that also this morning. Lets keep this a discusion on facts, ok.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Bass

"30-06 with a 150 grain jacketed bullet and 4895 powder. 40 grains has accuracy at 1 1/4", 41 opens, 42, is the same, 43 comes back in at about 1 3/4", 44 opens 45 opens more, 46 opens WIDE 4", 47 comes back down, 48, comes in again, and 49 grains is peek accuracy again at about 1/2". If you notice, the lower velocity only required 3 grains to open and come back in. As the pressure and friction increased the harmonic resonance of my barrel went to 6 grains variance. Change primer and that changes back to 3 grain swings but accuracy never get's below an inch."

All that is quite correct. However, if you'll bother to read what I said; "Now I have pushed that bullet faster in the CBC rifle with slower powders (RL19 and H4831SC but the figurse remain pretty constant." Thus increasing the velocity with slower powders did not return accuracy to the 1840 fps level. Nor does increasing the powder charge of 4895. A cast bullet is deformed much more than a jacketed bullet the harder you push it and accuracy will not improve simply by pushing it harder.

"But when I shoot jacketed, fouling and temperature alter groups. And not every bullet shoot sub MOA in my gun either. Those same 150s can be 1/2" or 1 1/2" after 20 shots."

We have different expectaions of accuracy from our "accurate rifles then. I expect my rifles to hold the same level of accuracy over a reasonable number of shots. That would be 110 shots for my match rifles and at least 50 shots for varmint rifles. With my hunting '06s if they won't hold consistant accuracy for 20 shots with quality jacketed hunting bullets then the barrel is bad or the componants are wrong.

"Let's not exaggerate either. There was only about 25 or 30 in that bunch of bullets I sent you. That wasn't enough to even play around with seating depth properly little alone jump around from powder to powder. And seating depth would have made all the difference at the 2 to 3" group level. Small moves are required at those levels. Certainly, you aren't trying to tell me all factory jacketed loads shoot the same in all your guns? Why should cast be any different? But jumping around is exactly the WRONG methodology to tune with 30 cast bullets."

No exaggeration here at all. Perhaps our memories are not what we think they are. So to check I went to my records (I keep records of all shots fired over my chronograph and have done so since the mid '70s when I got my first Oehler) to check. I count 162 shots fired over the screens. That does not include some I just fired for group. My meory says you sent two batches of bullets to me. My records document considerably more than "25 or 30 to play with" and I still have 20 left (want a picture of them?). It appears my memory is not at fault. Perhaps the "exaggeration" lies elswhere? I also loaded and followed you specific instructions so If I was "jumping around" it was using your methollogy. However at the time I felt we were progressing following good time proven sequence and your methollogy was correct. Perhaps we were wrong.

"Larry. Here is the offer. Next spring, send me your gun and I will do it for you. And I will tell you if it's possible with that gun or not. Detailed. Coarse you pay the shipping both ways."

Great offer but let me counter with this; the wife and I plan on doing some traveling now that I'm retired and when I finish with my contract training. How about I just come back there and we give the rifle a try? I'm sure there are some good RV parks around there?

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

45 2.1

Before you question my veracity in public you should verify your facts; here is the EXACT quote from Joe's email to me that I referred to;

"Explain to me how I can push a 70 gr normal alloy water harden bullet out of my 1-7 twist AR15 at over 3100 fps and stay on the target."

Now I said "hit the target" and Joe said "stay on the target". Kindly explain to me the difference? I did not misrepresent anything Joe said. I've just had several email exchanges with him this very morning including one concerning the above quote. I emailed Joe's statement back to him and he does not deny that is what he said nor does he disagree with what I said about it. "hitting a target" or "staying on target" is not a measurement of accuracy. Joe and I agree on what is "accuracy" to us and discussed that also this morning. Lets keep this a discusion on facts, ok.

Larry Gibson

Larry-
I have the complete e-mail and its subject was not group shooting. It was a test to see if he could duplicate the bending boolit scenario from Waksupi's pure tin boolit 6.5mm boolit. He shot it from an AR with a 7"twist, the boolit being a long 70 gr. 22 boolit. Surely a more severe test of RPM stability. Takeing one sentence out of a post and representing it in this manner is not a factual thing....! If anyone wants to see the e-mail as proof, I will e-mail it to them. I stand by my first statement that it didn't sound like something Joe would say. Things out of context often do sound like that. Your facts were misrepresented on this.

[Pat I.]

Pat, Cold shooting puts me on a fairly equal level with their accuracy and I can go on up with velocity. And my groups don't get wind flags or anything else. Then when it was done in competition, it would have viability and competitent people may take it farther than I have.

Well then it seems you can do something I haven't been able to do successfully and I applaud and respect you for for it but since this is turning into another pissing contest and I said in another post I'm not going to get inolved in another pissing contest I'm outa here.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

I really don’t think we should continue this side bar discussion to this thread. I just received an email from Joe where in he included that paragraph and his explanation to what he really meant. Joe and I are in agreement over what I said though we still disagree a bit on rpm’s effect on cast bullets. I don't understand why you are in disagreement. Here is Joe's last sentance of that email, It should end this side bar.

“You did, in my opinion, present my statement as an accuracy statement, not as a Waksupi bend the bullet fly off into wonderland test, which is 100 percent” (Joe did not finish the sentence)

Should you want to continue a discussion of rpm's effects (or non effect) on cast or jacketed bullets then I am game. However if you want to continue with a pissing contest then I am not for that game. I, like Pat I will be "outa here".

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Bass

My apologies, I have 26 of your LBT bullets left. I found another 6 with the heavy coat of white mica.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

I certainly don't and wouldn't expect to get the accuracy out of a sporter rifle that someone could get out of a full blown bench gun but the mechanics are going to be the same. It sounds like there's a little problem because I posted pictures of a couple of targets and explained the loads but it was asked and I complied. Personal interests have nothing to do with it. I like bench guns someone else might like handguns others like military guns, what difference does it make. I could have posted pictures I shot with a handgun if I had any but would need a 4x8 piece of poster board to show all the hits but that wouldn't necessarily mean what I do is more interesting. Money and equipment have nothing to do with getting cast bullets to shoot and I have to jump just as many hurdles, if not more, to get them to shoot.

Just because someone doesn't claim every group they shoot is 1/2 inch doesn't necessarily mean that they don't know what they're taking about or haven't tried a lot of the things discussed. They just know that if they say things like that and are honest with themselves the next time out they won't be able to get under an inch to save their life.

I'm not trying to usurp anyone's standings here and am willing to listen and try new ideas because what the heck is there to lose but really don't like being told I'm stupid because I don't believe in bragging. I've tried that in the past and every time ended up eating the words when put to the test.


Pat- If you were under the impression I was blasting you, thats wrong. :oops:I was really impressed with the groups you got at such high velocity. I figured you should be more forthcoming if you can shoot groups like that at speed. But, as you said, I see this is deteriorating like the other threads. Too bad. It was going good and I thought we were really getting someplace.:cry:

[Pat I.]

Bret,

What I wrote was in no way shape or form directed at you. In fact the only reason I looked back here was because you posted something and I wanted to see what you had to say.

To set something straight I'm no expert and never played one on TV. I don't know any more than anyone else on this forum and when it comes to getting handguns or military rifles shooting probably know less. I can't shoot like those targets all the time and don't claim to. Some days are good some days are bad. If someone asked me what kind of groups I shoot with HVY guns I'd probably say in the 6s and 7s because if I added up every group I ever shot and averaged them that's probably what I'd get. I'm not a good wind doper even with flags and no matter what anyone claims wind has a big effect on group size. I think some of my barrels are capable of a lot better than what I can do with them but it's me behind the butt so that doesn't mean squat.

Since you wrote directly to me I'm going to pose a question directly to you. Why is it people always shoot either 1 inch or 1/2 groups? Why doesn't anyone ever shoot 3/8ths, 3/4, or 7/16th? This has perplexed me for years and maybe you can answer it for me because I have a heck of a time shooting 1/2 groups no matter what I do. (imagine there's a little smiley face here because the damned button won't work)

Pat

[Bret4207]

Why is it people always shoot either 1 inch or 1/2 groups? Why doesn't anyone ever shoot 3/8ths, 3/4, or 7/16th? This has perplexed me for years and maybe you can answer it for me because I have a heck of a time shooting 1/2 groups no matter what I do. (imagine there's a little smiley face here because the damned button won't work)

Pat[/QUOTE]

Simple my good man. 95% of the groups reported are measured with a Mod. 1 eyeball which is calibrated by guess and by gosh with a good dose of ego thrown in to lubricate the whole works.:mrgreen: I've often been amazed at the way some of my 1 1/4" groups become much closer to 1" with the proper application of foggy memory and competitive lie telling 'round the ol' pot bellied stove. Not that we LIE mind you, we just round down to the nearest common denominator. [smilie=1: This is based on my experience as a World Famous Ballistician, Crime Fighter and All 'Round Good Guy. :roll:

Truthfully? I think there a bit of truth in preceding paragraph. But mostly I'd say guys look at the 1" target squares and approximate. I have measured a few with a dial caliper and to be honest, calling a 1.610 group "about 1 1/2" is good enough for me. An honest half inch group from any production rifle, cast or jacketed, is something to be remembered. Mind you thats at least 5 shot groups for me, 10 shots are the real test and if you back things off to 200 yards and do 5-10 shot groups you really separate the wheat from the chaff. I've only done that a couple times. Generally you'll be pretty sad when it's over.

Add in a little personal pride and stubbornness, plus the magic of the accurizing keyboard, and you get a 7/8" group that gets called "about 1/2" or the 5 shot 1 3/8" plus group with 2 flyers that get discounted and the best of 3 gets called 1/2".

Human nature pal. Human nature.

[Pat I.]

Thanks for the explanation and I'll retire a little wiser tonite.

Two happy looking fellas toasting each other with a couple of frosty mugs of ice cold beer. (damn buttons still won't work)

[Ricochet]

Like this one? :drinks:

[Pat I.]

that's the one but my mugs are a little bigger and the beer much colder.

[dubber123]

Pat, I shot a 7/8" 6 shot group yesterday out of my "el cheapo" Savage 219. 4 were in an honest 1/4" center to center. The other two ruined it. And it was only 50 yards. I was still happy. I've shot very few 100 yard 1" groups . If every gun I had would do that I'd be blessed for sure.

[Pat I.]

You're forgetting the "Two Shot Discount" rule that Bret mentioned in his post so in actuality you shot a 1/4 inch group which is excellent shooting by any standard.

I think I better quit kidding around because eventually someone's going to get ticked off and come gunnin for me, and you don't get the discount in that event.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1

I really don’t think we should continue this side bar discussion to this thread. I just received an email from Joe where in he included that paragraph and his explanation to what he really meant. Joe and I are in agreement over what I said though we still disagree a bit on rpm’s effect on cast bullets. I don't understand why you are in disagreement. Here is Joe's last sentance of that email, It should end this side bar.

“You did, in my opinion, present my statement as an accuracy statement, not as a Waksupi bend the bullet fly off into wonderland test, which is 100 percent” (Joe did not finish the sentence)

Should you want to continue a discussion of rpm's effects (or non effect) on cast or jacketed bullets then I am game. However if you want to continue with a pissing contest then I am not for that game. I, like Pat I will be "outa here".

Larry Gibson

Whatsamatter Larry, you forget this already:
Not sure it's a "pissing contest", some of us talk to each other like this on certain subjects. Doesn't mean we wouldn't shoot together, drink coffee or beer together or learn from each other. Just means we are set in our ways on some things, that's all. No big deal really, kind of a fun mental exercise actually and I enjoy thier company here. Larry Gibson

We'll go off board if you want.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass

My apologies, I have 26 of your LBT bullets left. I found another 6 with the heavy coat of white mica.

Larry Gibson


Larry,

OK. So I was wrong. Dang I hate that . :grin:

I send a lot of stuff but didn't remember two batches. Don't ever remember sending you anything else, huh? But take those 26 bullets and shoot 3 or each kind and see if they shoot the same. Or use a hardness tester if you can. That is pretty tough on spitzer bullets. Can't understand why they would be lubed differently. (too many experiments)

Your idea of traveling would be welcome and is REMARKABLY accommodative. If you are serious, take this off line and use the PM feature.


Pat,

You miss read a pissin contest. If I actually told you group sizes, you would definitely put me in the waco court if you haven't already.

[Pat I.]

Bass,

I didn't say we were heading for a pissing contest I said the thread was turning into a pissing contest, which eventually my big mouth would get me mixed up in. I'm a run of the mill BR shooter and have had fair success with a 250 gr bullet in a 30 PPC at 1750 fps in a 10 twist and hopefully with my latest project will be competitive with a 155 gr bullet at 2650 fps in a 17 twist, along with a whole lot of things in between including the 6.5. I can imagine your frustration with having to defend what you're saying at every turn and readily admit I haven't been able to match it. If you could clean everyone's clock at a BR match using a production gun you're a much better shooter and experimenter than I ever hope to be and hope you bring a good supply of Cleanex Tissue if you ever do show up to one because the guys that have a few bucks wrapped up in their custom rifles will need it.

Pat

[44man]

Rifles are funny things! I have seen off the shelf factory rifles shoot super tight groups with almost any load. Then some needed work but would only shoot one load. Some never shot good. Old military rifles are the same with even pitted barrels shooting better then new ones. There might be only one in a thousand of these that will do it.
Now a BR rifle is made to shoot with the best components and workmanship built in although you might still get one that just doesn't do it.
To spend a huge amount of money for the best BR rifle is just not in the cards for most of us and we have to use what we can afford, plus most are hunting rifles. There are those that CAN shoot right along with a good BR rifle or even outshoot one but it is rare and I have only had a couple in over 50 years. I have worked on thousands of rifles over the years, some would hold 1/2" all day, some 1", others were hard put to do 3". Then, once in a great while, there is the tack driver that will poke one hole. I have spent big bucks on some rifles that would not shoot anything yet a cheap Remington would make all of you shake your heads.
Take a cross section of everyone here and the guns we all own, how many are tack drivers? Not many! But there ARE a few and those that jump down your throat and start a pissing match are out of touch, having never owned one.
My revolvers are the same. If I have one that won't do 1" or way less at 50 yd's, I sell it. I also would sell a bad rifle. I am almost out of the rifle game though and only have the Swede left. I still work on them for others but the problem is, I don't see the accuracy with factory rifles anymore. The Savage seems to be the most consistant. Some say factory barrels are better then ever, I don't believe it. Some factories don't allow rejects and they are screwed to an action.

[felix]

Yep, about those bad rifles! Just shoot the suckers hot as possible for as long as possible in the hottest ambient you can stand. Interchange condoms with cast if you choose. Sooner or later, say after a thousand or two rounds, the gun just might start to come into a realistic pattern. To keep things interesting, just use bigger targets, or closer ranged targets. Either will do when the chips are down with that cheap ass barrel. As long as the action is good and strong, you can always have the gun revamped to shoot correctly, even if it requires a new barrel from the start. Won't hurt to see what happens over the long haul with a piece of crap, provided you are having fun doing so. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Whatsamatter Larry, you forget this already:
Not sure it's a "pissing contest", some of us talk to each other like this on certain subjects. Doesn't mean we wouldn't shoot together, drink coffee or beer together or learn from each other. Just means we are set in our ways on some things, that's all. No big deal really, kind of a fun mental exercise actually and I enjoy thier company here. Larry Gibson

We'll go off board if you want.

Well it appeared to me it was turning into a pissing contest. I don't mind a good arguement among friends as long as we stick to facts. But I don't think this is the place to get personal as it appeared to me to be heading. I could be wrong and if so apologize. . Of course we can drink coffee or beer (or good Canadian whisky, eh) together. Would love to go shootin with you guys too.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Bass

"OK. So I was wrong. Dang I hate that ." :grin:..........I send a lot of stuff but didn't remember two batches. Don't ever remember sending you anything else, huh?"

What! you expect me to remember? Hey, I'm the guy that went to my records to count shots! CRAFT is a terrible thing.........

"...those 26 bullets and shoot 3 or each kind and see if they shoot the same. Or use a hardness tester if you can. That is pretty tough on spitzer bullets. Can't understand why they would be lubed differently. (too many experiments)"

Will test 5 each with 57 gr H4831 (consistantly did better than RL19 at HV in my rifle) over WLP primers. That load ran 2590 fps and shot into 2.1 - 3.42" at 100 yards the 3 times I tested it (5 shot groups). My method of testing BHN doesn't work on small bullets.

Wife and I are looking at RVs so I'll be setting you up as one destination for sure. We'll talk about it.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

One of the strangest to come into the shop was a Savage 110 in 30-06. The guy could not get enough windage on his scope to sight it. I found the barrel was screwed in a little crooked to the reciever. I was going to tell him to send it back until I shimmed the scope base and tried it. I shot four, five shot 3/4" groups in a row. Since he only shot factory loads and wanted it for deer, he was very happy. He still has it and gets his deer every season.
I have had several beautiful Sako rifles that could not be made to group with anything including over 200 different reloads. Barrel break in and accurizing did nothing.
Most Weatherby Mark 5's can be made to shoot like a target rifle.
It is hit or miss with almost any rifle and it just doesn't matter how much the gun cost.
Another one I could not explain was a Ruger Mark II, .22 that shot every bullet into the ground 10 feet in front of me. Every measurement was on the money and the bore and crown was perfect. All was straight too. I sent it to Ruger and they replaced it but never told me the problem. Some things can't be explained.
I have been a part time gunsmith for over 50 years and have seen some of the biggest $40 pieces of crap outshoot $2000 guns.
Most WW 1 and 2 rifles in perfect shape will outshoot our modern rifles. Do you think they made better barrels and scrapped bad ones?
My friend has a 1917 Enfield. He had a pile of every kind of reload and surplus ammo I ever seen. He dumped the mess on the bench and we shot small rocks and cans at 100 yd's all day. Didn't matter how the loads were mixed and shot, all hit where aimed. Try that with your new 30-06! :mrgreen:

[IcerUSA]

I had an 1917 Eddystone the did what your friends did , 44Man , she just shot POA and under an 1" at a hundred. I loved that old gun, when I got it it had already been machined to a nice round reciever , Pick up a Carlo type stock for it and shortened the barrel to just behind the front sight slot . Had some nice sights put on it when I had it reblued , and an old Bushnel Cheifton with pop up post , That rifle sure was pretty . Don't have her an more but that a bad story and I won't tell about it . Hope my son keept it tho . :)


Keith

[joeb33050]

Pat, I think what accuracy in this conversation is more like how round the groups are, and are they what is realistically expected for the trials. We must always keep in mind how the boolits stay together at rotation. Those which are mo'betta' balanced at the RPM threshold will out-round those groups which are not made with boolits other than not perfectly round (consistent) at the target. This has to do with how the boolits accelerate, and how much the boolits are obturated on the back, sides and front inclusively. So, you can see that lube plays a role here as well, because we have to consider how the sides obturate. ... felix

The question was about accuracy, which BA seems to stay away from. Now we have this from Felix. It just makes no sense to me. The rpm threshold? Accelerate and obturate and lube-there's a lot of words here, but no information. Whatever happened to the short declarative sentence?
Accuracy is about reliably repeatable groups at some range. How about five five shot 100 yard group averages? How about more nouns and fewer adverbs and adjectives. Where's the groups?? What's the accuracy? Is this all theoretical BS with no shooting getting done? WHERE ARE THE GROUPS??? Maybe 45 2.1 will dust off his sole small group picture and show it to us.

By the way, the roundness of groups is an indication of whether the process is "in control", which simply means that ONE process is happening rather than more than one.

Is this nonsense, or is it me?

joe brennan
joe brennan

[Bass Ackward]

The question was about accuracy, which BA seems to stay away from. joe brennan


Joe,

I stay away from accuracy at HV for the same reason I stay away from accuracy at low velocity. Everyone has a different standard. It is what it is. If 1 1/2" is what your gun produces with jackets, then that should be your goal. If you can do better, then that is my goal. If I have a 2 1/2 power scope for hunting, I always work up with something heavier and swap. With the 2 1/2 power scope I am satisfied with 1 1/2". If I have the 36X on there, then 1/2" is top end.

But when I people throw numbers around here, you just lose some folks because their eyes roll back in their head and you lose credibility. Accuracy is JUST like HV in the dedication and focus it requires. Not every copper bench rest rifle shoots tenths every day. But cast is held to a different standard. If a guy shoots 3 shot groups, then someone else wants 5. Then if it's still good we want 10. Anybody for 50? Your groups standard should be based on your need. IF you have a 10 shot competition, then you need 10 shots. IF you must fire 5 groups that day, then you need a cleaner load than a hunter who can be satisfied with 3. But his accuracy is no less valid.

The issue here was the logic I use at HV. The logic pattern determines " MY " list .... AT HV ONLY!!!

And if you care to know, the logic and the steps and order I use at low velocity is different. My bullets are harder for low velocity than high. My lube choices are different. My bullet design is different. The list changes. I go to magnum rifle primers to eliminate powder position sensitivity. I don't use filler, but that should be on a list somewhere, just not mine. The accuracy standard remains THE SAME!!!

Change to a lever action and my logic will change again as to my go to solutions because seating into the lands is not a viable option now. Nor is a spitzer bullet. I want a bullet with a heavier front band to withstand the jump etc, etc.

So I would have different lists for different types of firearms. Once I got to know the gun, I would have a list or a logic trail for THAT specific gun based on passed testing. It used to be called getting to know your gun. In the olden days, it was, "Beware the one gun man."

So today, we only scratch the potential of one gun before we move on. That creates a flexibility which is a skill set in itself. And I am not saying that one skill set is better than an other. To each his own. But it is NOT a detail oriented philosophy. A detailed focus is required, if you care. The problem is that the guy that doesn't care stops experimenting at 1" cause he is satisfied. And when the next guy stops at 1/2" he cries BS. But you know what? It's EXACTLY the same for jacketed. You just don't go to the store very often and shoot in the tenths.

[Pat I.]

Bass it's really not all that complicated. First you tell everyone what gun you were shooting and include scope power if you want. Next tell the load including all the necessary information. Finally take the average of four five shot groups and post the results. I think most people would be satisfied with four five shot groups shot in a reasonable amount of time to guestimate the potential accuracy of the gun and load.

[felix]

Joe and Pat, I am with BA all the way in his thought process. The accuracy standard is only that which provides satisfaction to where all experimentation stops in earnest. Every gun must be shot only at the targets intended for it by the shooter at that moment. Shooting paper groups, for example, with any gun other than a BR rifle is pure nonsense to me anymore. Like Pat, my limitation in paper shooting is not the gun, but always has been me. I learned after about 4 years (hard headed) that I do not fit in the same group with folks who can read/understand what they see on the range, and this includes distance estimations close enough to master high arcing ammo. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Word to the wise- If Felix says the sky is bright red with purple polka dots, take his word for it.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm with Joe and Pat.

Showing or giving the measurements of at least 4 fairly consecutive 5 shot groups is a good measure of the load. Giving the details of the load and description of the firearm and sights would then let the reader make his own judgement as to the loads merit.

Not sure if those were short or declaritive enough sentences but it's what I look for when judging accuracy.

[felix]

Yes, Larry, what you said is perfectly good, assuming the very same shooter shooting in the Houston warehouse on the same set of "bags" at the same distance for each gun. Then you can compare with statistical authority. Bring statistics into play, the typical group, or set of groups, would have to have a count of 30 somewhere to have the confidence level high enough to say things that you read/understand from all of the targets are true. ... felix

[Pat I.]

Felix, Unfortunately most don't have access to a Houston Warehouse so we have to deal with what's been the established norm of stating the accuracy potential of what we shoot. People tell you the groups they shot all the time place and it's taken as fact as long as they're not so far out that there might be questions. One group doesn't tell you anything but four five shot groups start you in a direction and 10 shot groups tell you more. Over the course of time you'll really see what the gun, and you, are capable of if you're honest with yourself and others.

Not every gun, every person, or for that matter the same person with the same gun on a different day is going to be a great shot and there's no shame in it. Being a great shot isn't going to put food on the table or pay the bills so there's no reason to have to try to pass yourself off as one all the time. Personally I have a lot more respect for the guy that says if he does his part the gun and load are capable of shooting two inches every time than the guy that claims he could stuff a rock into a 300 Win. Magnum and shoot 1/2 inch groups on demand. Anyone who's spent any time at the range knows there's a hell of a lot more sub MOA groups shot with the keyboard than have ever been shot with a rifle, especially with cast bullets.

Pat

[Bass Ackward]

Bass it's really not all that complicated. First you tell everyone what gun you were shooting and include scope power if you want. Next tell the load including all the necessary information. Finally take the average of four five shot groups and post the results. I think most people would be satisfied with four five shot groups shot in a reasonable amount of time to guestimate the potential accuracy of the gun and load.


Pat,

Well, you are just going to have to trust me on this. When I used to post group sizes and pictures, the comments then were that wasn't the correct range or what ever. And Waksupi isn't seeing any better from machine rests evidently. That would make a sceptic outta anybody.

We post here to open minds to possibilities. To inspire others .... to try. Not to embarrass or appear to boast. I know I have learned a lot over the years. But if you really want to open minds, you don't mention accuracy lest they slam the door. Velocity figures are OK, they just think you are wacky for trying when you have jacketed bullets. And the only ones that whine and cry BS are the ones trying that ain't satisfied where they are with their progress yet. That I can live with.

If you ever want to know specifically what I am referring to, PM me and I will tell you or even take pictures if you want.

[felix]

Pat, like you say, nobody is going to be consistent enough to shoot 4 five shot groups in one sitting, right? Larry wanted to know what a certain combo will/could produce. With 95 percent confidence that the targets are not lying, then one should shoot 6 five shot groups, one each on a different day at the same range at the same time. Like Monday through Saturday at some exact time with all 30 rounds loaded during the proceeding week. Then superimpose all 30 shots onto one piece of paper, centering each group over the first. Then and only then will I say a keyboard was not involved. Most folks are not dedicated enough to do this for a bunch of statistics, and most especially me. ... felix

[hivoltfl]

This whole thread has been one HE@@ of a good read, I tip my hat to you guys on this one, it should be archived.

Rick

[Pat I.]

Felix,

I agree and disagree with what you're saying. The way it's been described to me and what I've read in a bunch of books is that accurate shooting is being able to place a shot where you want it on a target, like score shooting. Precision shooting is being able to place a bunch of shots close together anywhere on the target, like group shooting. Of course we both know everyone just uses the word accurate to describe both and for the most part don't bother with score shooting, although for a hunting gun it's probably be a better system than shooting groups.

Doing something like you said wouldn't seem a good way to find out how accurate,precise, a gun is because conditions, light, coffee intake, a butterfly flapping it's wings in the Amazon Rain Forest, and a bunch of other things could make a lot of difference where the group ends up if you're shooting on different days. You can chase a shot to make a precision group but you can't call back one shot if you're testing for accuracy.

Sitting down at a bench and shooting four five shot groups isn't going to tell you how well a gun will shoot in the long haul but it's a heck of a lot better than basing what you're saying on one three or five shot group and ignoring the other twenty or the "Called Flyers" we all seem to get after finding a shot out of the group.

Pat

[Pat I.]

Pat, If you ever want to know specifically what I am referring to, PM me and I will tell you or even take pictures if you want.

It'd be nice if we could discuss things without getting down and dirty but maybe that's not possible.

Bass you seem like a very patient guy and I like you for it but I'm gonna have to pass on going to PMs. Who knows maybe someone will be able to pluck a diamond out of the trash heap we're building here!!!

Pat

[Scrounger]

Joe, there is some ill-mannered person making posts using your handle. You might want to look that person up and talk to him about being respectful.

[Maven]

At the risk of getting dampened by this urination tournament/discussion, I have several questions to ask. (1) How do you determine RPM's for a given rate of twist? (2) Do RPM's also vary with velocity? (3) How do you know the pressure (psi) a given load combination, twist rate, chamber dimension and barrel condition develop? Are you using a strain gauge? a computer program? or are you just guessing? (4) I'm not sure I grasp this, but when accuracy (as defined by the shooter) degrades, how do you know that it's due to RPM. If it is the latter, can you quantify how much of said degradation can be explained by RPM alone and not some other variables? Help me understand this please.

[Bret4207]

This assumes that the word taker has no critical faculty means can't distinguish BS from the real world; and that Dr. Felix is often right. I can and he isn't. If you want to believe that he said something, God bless you. As usual, he didn't.
joe b.



Okay Joe- Enough ***** footing around. Personally, I was all for you coming here and fishing for information. Now I see it was a mistake to let you mine for information. You got here a few months ago and haven't contributed much, just mined for information. Felix has been around for nearly 10 years, knows his stuff, has the creds to back it up, has been helpful to anyone who asked and has NEVER stooped to such a low level as you have in this and other threads! In other words he has conducted himself like a gentleman. You sir, have not. If you can't behave in a decent manner and keep from this insulting behavior then I suggest you find someplace else to find the information you need for your book.

[Larry Gibson]

Maven

(1) How do you determine RPM's for a given rate of twist?

There are several ways; I do it this way. Divide your twist in inches by 12 inches (that the "feet") which gives you a constant. divide the velocity in fps by the constant which gives revolutions per second. Multiply that answer by 60 (60 seconds in a minute) and you get the RPM.

Example; for a 10" twist divide 10 by 12 and you get .833 for the constant. That is only good for the 10" twist. Each different twist will have a different constant.

Velocity of 1800 fps divided by .833 gives 2,160.8 revolutions per second. Multiply that times 60 and you get 129,652 RPM

(2) Do RPM's also vary with velocity?

Yes, that is why the faster the fps the greater the RPM and the more effect it has on any defectd in the bullet.

(3) How do you know the pressure (psi) a given load combination, twist rate, chamber dimension and barrel condition develop?

Are you using a strain gauge?

I don't.

a computer program?

I don't usually get excited about pressure with cast bullet loads.

(4) I'm not sure I grasp this, but when accuracy (as defined by the shooter) degrades, how do you know that it's due to RPM.

If the shooter is working up loads and his groups are doing ok then tighten up and then open up again he has; one, reached an efficient burning of that powder. two, reached the optimum accuracy for that load combination and three, exceeded the RPM threshold for that alloy with that pressure. With medium to slow burning powders this is generally in the 130-145,000 RPM range. Compute it out and you find find most who report accuracy with a 1-10" twist '06 for instance report best accuracy in the 1750 to 1850 fps range. That is 126,050 to 133,253 RPM. Above that and their groups open. Those who are using medium/slow powders with hard cast bullets that fit the chamber/barrel well report good accuracy at 2000 fps or so. Above that accuracy is lost. That is 144,000 RPM.

If it is the latter, can you quantify how much of said degradation can be explained by RPM alone and not some other variables?

The "other variables" are the alloy the quality of the cast, how well the bullet fits, etc, etc, etc. All those have to do with how much the bullet deforms during accelleration creating an un balance bullet. Also keep in mind that our cast bullets are no perfectly ballanced no matter how well we cast them (some are a whole better than others). The faster the bullet spins (higher RPM) the more these imbalances cause yaw, pitch and wobble. It is the increase in yaw, pitch and wobble that causes groups to open. Higher RPM increase the yaw, pitch and wobble.

Help me understand this please.

Hope you do now.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

Larry, any idea how much RPM is necessary to pull the alloy apart? It may well be the RPMs in your example. A little different than the BHN X 1400 thing, this deals with tensile limit of elasticity. Should be possible to calculate out directly. I'd need to know how to calculate centrifugal force and how to set up units of weight to convert into lbs. or whatever. Also how to calculate cross section being stretched on the surface of a cylinder by rpms. All of which I don't, never had any Calculus.

[Bass Ackward]

Paul,

(1) How do you determine RPM's for a given rate of twist?

Muzzle velocity X 720 divided by twist rate in inches = RPMs.

(2) Do RPM's also vary with velocity? Yes, see the formula

(3) How do you know the pressure (psi) a given load combination, twist rate, chamber dimension and barrel condition develop? Are you using a strain gauge? a computer program?

I use Quickload. Since velocity is proportional to pressure, once verified with a chronograph, I can assume the pressure listed is what is producing my velocity.

(4) I'm not sure I grasp this, but when accuracy (as defined by the shooter) degrades, how do you know that it's due to RPM. If it is the latter, can you quantify how much of said degradation can be explained by RPM alone and not some other variables? Help me understand this please.

The easiest accuracy occurs at sat 1500-1800 fps in 30 caliber with cast. AND .... jacketed too. Above that you start to increase the factor of harmonics because you are increasing friction. Just like the volume of a wine glass gets louder when you rotate your finger around the rim and push harder, your barrel begins to whip more also. This makes accuracy more difficult. The difficulty does not make the accuracy any poorer. The lowly 22 LR has been proven to have harmonics in rifle barrels. Jacketed demonstrate harmonics from vibration caused by friction. Why wouldn't large caliber HV lead bullets create harmonics? Answer: They do, that's the point that gets over looked by RPMers.

So are you just moving off a harmonal node or is RPMs getting you? The key is that some guys can destroy PB bullets at 800 fps. It ain't RPMs that got them there, it's pressure. It's pressure right up until some magical point it becomes RPMs, but no one on earth can tell you where that line is. And if it's different for 22s than 30s, so then it isn't a line period. The only difference is inertia.

[Pat I.]

I think an easier way to find RPM is velocity x 720 (constant) divided by twist. 1800 x 720 = divided by 10 =129,600

I don't know if I'm reading leftiye's post right but if so I don't think bullets are being pulled apart or anything like that by overspinning them I just think the built in defects open the group more the faster you spin them. Smaller calibers can take more spin because the defects are closer to the centerline. No examples to back this up and there's not going to be any but I'd bet 45 caliber bullets in a 10 twist at 2100 fps would have guys at the next bench ducking.

[Pat I.]

I think an easier way to find RPM is velocity x 720 (constant) divided by twist. 1800 x 720 divided by 10 =129,600

I don't know if I'm reading leftiye's post right but if so I don't think bullets are being pulled apart or anything like that by overspinning them I just think the built in defects open the group more the faster you spin them. Smaller calibers can take more spin because the defects are closer to the centerline. No examples to back this up and there's not going to be any but I'd bet 45 caliber bullets in a 10 twist at 2100 fps would have guys at the next bench ducking.

[felix]

Excellent! The more inertia a boolit has (bigger diameter), the easier it is to "blow it up", "pull it apart" by rotation (both inside and outside of the barrel). This requires the twist be slower using a 45 caliber for the same accuracy as could be had with a 30 caliber. Making the rotational inertia the "same" by changing the RPM for the two boolits individually, the accuracy with them should be identical (assuming barrel interference is the same, and the distance is compatible with each of the boolit's form factor (Ingall's research). ... felix

[felix]

Thanks, Bret. It is hard to advance the other cheek, but that is what I have been trying to do during the interim between his and your posts. ... felix

[felix]

Pat, yes, you can shoot the 22's quite fast RPM wise and get away with it for the reason you stated. Besides, it is easier on the boolit to reach those higher velocities because of the inertia value being so low when compared to a 30, for example. The accuracy actually can be less, though, because of the outside-of-the-barrel infractions. Not enough weight to get out there and touch something, as you well know. ... felix

[Pat I.]

See Felix, I thought I finally came up with something so profound I had to say it twice!!!!

I don't know whats happening here but I can click on buttons til I'm blue in the face and nothing happens, sabotoogie perhaps!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, any idea how much RPM is necessary to pull the alloy apart? It may well be the RPMs in your example. A little different than the BHN X 1400 thing, this deals with tensile limit of elasticity. Should be possible to calculate out directly. I'd need to know how to calculate centrifugal force and how to set up units of weight to convert into lbs. or whatever. Also how to calculate cross section being stretched on the surface of a cylinder by rpms. All of which I don't, never had any Calculus.

I have had Hornady 55 SXs and Sierra Blitx's disintegrate in flight when push to 3300+ fps from 1-12" twist barrels and over 3500 fps from 14" twist barrels. They go "poof' and you see a big puff of lead about 30-40 yards from the muzzle.

However I can say that I've not had a cast bullet disintegrate to my knowledge. I have pushed them right up to 3000 fps but all at least "hit the target" (most often a 24x24" paper at 100 yards). They make improved cylinder patterns actually instead of groups. I have also seen what indicates that some part of the bullet may be breaking off; the little comma's in bullet holes and a couple small chunks of lead (no it wasn't the bullet Bass LOLs) imbedded in the chronograph screens.

To answer the question I have no idea what it takes to spin the lead alloys apart.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Me too, Larry. Even with the Sierra's 45 grainer simi-pointed at about 3500+. Prolly more like 3700 for these because they were loaded down some when using a 22-250. BR boolits stayed together at 3900+, and this is only because of the heavier jackets they typically wear. These boolits use almost pure lead, right? That would be heavy with little strength to hold up, and would find the first leak in a jacket and use it for escape. Ah, forgot: 14 twist. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Take and put a light coat of oil on those bullets and try again. They are being torn up INSIDE the barrel which is causing the dramatic effect once air is encountered.

I use this on jackets:

http://www.lubricationspecs.com/Whatsnew.htm


Warning: Once you start to use this oil on jackets, it's going to make you think about cast. Same thing as putting lube on a Barnes Triple shock.

[Bass Ackward]

I think an easier way to find RPM is velocity x 720 (constant) divided by twist. 1800 x 720 divided by 10 =129,600

I don't know if I'm reading leftiye's post right but if so I don't think bullets are being pulled apart or anything like that by overspinning them I just think the built in defects open the group more the faster you spin them. Smaller calibers can take more spin because the defects are closer to the centerline. No examples to back this up and there's not going to be any but I'd bet 45 caliber bullets in a 10 twist at 2100 fps would have guys at the next bench ducking.


Pat,

Very Good. That's why you need deeper grooves or taller rifling if you want to maintain the same percentage of .... grip on a 45 as compared to a 22 caliber with a .004 bite.

If you bite it, it will rotate. Just look at all the guys who buy older military rifles. Do they want a good rifling or a shot out one?

[joeb33050]

Okay Joe- Enough ***** footing around. Personally, I was all for you coming here and fishing for information. Now I see it was a mistake to let you mine for information. You got here a few months ago and haven't contributed much, just mined for information. Felix has been around for nearly 10 years, knows his stuff, has the creds to back it up, has been helpful to anyone who asked and has NEVER stooped to such a low level as you have in this and other threads! In other words he has conducted himself like a gentleman. You sir, have not. If you can't behave in a decent manner and keep from this insulting behavior then I suggest you find someplace else to find the information you need for your book.

I've been here since the site started, since the old shooters site went away. The book, Cast Bullets For Beginner And Expert, Second Edition, has contributions from many on this site. See the list of acknowledgments.
You say that it was a mistake to let me mine for information. Is "mining for information" your phrase? Is it meant in a negative connotation? Sounds like Chas Hamilton to me. I'm here and elsewhere looking for information, to be written down to provide a source for CB info for all. If that's not allowed here, let me know.
Fishing for information? Sure. Let me know if no fishing is allowed.
joe brennan

[Bret4207]

You receieved my PM. The rules have been explained. The ball is in your court.

[44man]

I just thought of something else. We work out the most accurate load and shoot some super groups. Next week they look like crap so we clean the barrel and do all the gyrations. The one thing not thought of is the weather changed on us. Burn of the powder, even barrel harmonics have changed enough to take away the edge.
Old timers used to find a good load, then go up and down with the powder charge to make sure the boolits hit the same place so there would be no change in the sights for hunting when weather changes. But when we work in 1/10 gr increments, that luxury isn't there.
I believe this is one big reason we have so much trouble duplicating groups over the course of the year. We might blame our shooting on that day or the lube when it is really out of our control. I guess you could work out a new load for every few degrees and humidity change---much fun there! :mrgreen:

[Bass Ackward]

I guess you could work out a new load for every few degrees and humidity change---much fun there! :mrgreen:


Jim,

I do. I have loads that shoot real well when it's cold and some that shoot best in warm. My summertime designs are olgivals and my winter designs are semi-wadcutters to remove fouling.

[44man]

I did that with rifles but don't bother with my revolvers. I work loads in the nice time of year for good groups but when I need them, the targets are a lot larger---the side of a deer! [smilie=1:
I admit that there is no drastic change with the revolver and I don't worry about it because target shooting ends at hunting season.

[9.3X62AL]

Joe--

You won't score points by comparing admin staff to Charles Hamilton. Leave it alone.

Just about all of us here have at least some interest in advancing the hobby or re-discovering what makes cast boolits tick. A lot of knowledge was lost over the past 30-50 years when mass-marketed components took over the reloading supply market. While I fully support your efforts to make the hobby as scientific and as repeatable/verifiable as possible, I am wondering if we are all sort of "chasing ghosts" with all of the possible variables that exist in the cast boolit accuracy and consistency equation. It remains a lot more art than science for many of us, and for that reason I think it best to deal more gently with those we disagree with.

[Maven]

Bass, Larry, Pat & Starmetal (Joe), Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and further my understanding of these phenomena. Funny thing, I do indeed get peak accuracy (~1" - 1.5"moa) from my '06 (Mod. 70 Win., glass-bedded + trigger job) between 1,700fps - 1,850fps with gas checked CB's. With plain based CB's, e.g. the Lee 30-150-TL-PB, the best performance has been ~1,300fps - 1,500fps with them lubed normally in an oversized sizing die (targets @ 50yds. posted under "Group Buy Mold Results"), but this one is a work in progress.

Also, after watching the AL & NL playoffs and World Series, I have to say that the hardest variable to control and thus predict is human variability (pitchers, batters). Sports professionals spend a great deal more time practising and doing what they do than we do and yet, the results are often not as expected. (George Steinbrenner hasn't learned this yet.) It seems to me the shooter's skill(s) follow this pattern as well. It's certainly true in my case! Given this state of affairs, I think that testing CB performance, with as many relevant variables as we can include, in a universal receiver with bbls. in multiple calibers ("standard" rather than BR chambering) would, at least theoretically, confirm our suspicions as well as reveal our mistaken assumptions. Those of you who are skilled in research design and multivariate analysis, which I most certainly am not, may find such an undertaking to not only be feasible, but satisfying, although probably beyond our means. Barring a universal receiver, etc., skilled BR shooters using production rifles (tuned) would be an even more practical approach.

[45nut]

It is not the questions that have garnered the attention of staff here Joe, it is the assaulting style you have displayed in some of your more recent posts. Nobody gets a free pass to "call out" another member here. There are a thousand ways to seek information and 999 of them would probably get a pass or better from us, one sure way to get attention however is to deliver a verbal punch to the guts of one of our members. That will not be condoned or overlooked.
Courtesy and manners count, I and the members of this forum depend on a positive when we visit here and nobody likes to see traps set and blows applied to fellow members.
Apologies are in order sometimes, I have made them myself, you might review some of your posts and see how you would look to others if you were a first time visitor.

[leftiye]

PatI,
You're right, of course. Defects being spun faster have greater effect due to greater imbalance forces.

I wasn't saying that it is all about the strength of the lead failing, just curious about when that might be and maybe how to calculate it.

If you knew the failure RPMs for a given diameter you'd definitely know how much was too much. Plus, if your RPM were anywhere close to failing it would cause distortions with or without blems plus exacerbate (distort) the blems somewhat earlier still than at that point. Might be interesting to see how close this was to Larry's limit, might be closer than we guess.

[Pat I.]

Leftiye,

I think there is a system where where you can find the (I hate to say it) limit with various calibers and twists, it's where most people are getting the best accuracy. I don't think it'd be a wrong assumption to say Bass never said he gets the best accuracy at high speed, at least that's what that other person said in the 6.5 thread, just that it's possible. I might be wrong but I'm sure I'll hear about it shortly if I am.

Maybe you guys are a lot more meticulous than me but when I'm working up a load with a suitable powder I increase the charge until the the groups start opening up again and and go back to the best one. Maybe other guys have found that if you keep going up the groups start opening and closing like an accordion but I haven't and think it's more theory than actuality.

Some guys get a kick out of velocity, some accuracy, some out of getting an old rifle back in action. Bass said he was shooting some of the thin skinned varmint bullets at 4200 fps out of a 22/250, if I remember right and that's a neat trick but I've dismantled a lot of prairie dogs with 40 gr Nosler ballistic tips at 3200 fps out of a .223 and felt fairly comfortable taking 250 yd shots if they were perched on top of the mound. I'm starting to lose track of where I'm trying to go with this so better finish up. I like getting the best accuracy I think me and the gun are capable of and couldn't care less how fast it's going.

Pat

[Junior1942]

Perusing the back of "The Fouling Shot" # 189 at the equipment lists sheds a little light on this subject. Most rpm came from a 222 @ 2700 fps @ 1 -14 twist = 138857 rpm. Most of the loads of 1700 fps or more were in the 120,000 rpm range. Probably 90% of all loads listed were in the 65,000 to 100,000 rpm range. Looks like the 2000 fps+ guys like slow twists, 14 to 17.

[waksupi]

I just thought of something else. We work out the most accurate load and shoot some super groups. Next week they look like crap so we clean the barrel and do all the gyrations. The one thing not thought of is the weather changed on us. Burn of the powder, even barrel harmonics have changed enough to take away the edge.
Old timers used to find a good load, then go up and down with the powder charge to make sure the boolits hit the same place so there would be no change in the sights for hunting when weather changes. But when we work in 1/10 gr increments, that luxury isn't there.
I believe this is one big reason we have so much trouble duplicating groups over the course of the year. We might blame our shooting on that day or the lube when it is really out of our control. I guess you could work out a new load for every few degrees and humidity change---much fun there! :mrgreen:

44man, hold your breath, and mark the calendar. I agree with you!:drinks:

[Bass Ackward]

I don't think it'd be a wrong assumption to say Bass never said he gets the best accuracy at high speed, at least that's what that other person said in the 6.5 thread, just that it's possible. I might be wrong but I'm sure I'll hear about it shortly if I am.

Some guys get a kick out of velocity, some accuracy, some out of getting an old rifle back in action. Bass said he was shooting some of the thin skinned varmint bullets at 4200 fps out of a 22/250, if I remember right and that's a neat trick but I've dismantled a lot of prairie dogs with 40 gr Nosler ballistic tips at 3200 fps out of a .223 and felt fairly comfortable taking 250 yd shots if they were perched on top of the mound. I'm starting to lose track of where I'm trying to go with this so better finish up. I like getting the best accuracy I think me and the gun are capable of and couldn't care less how fast it's going.

Pat


Pat,

In some rifles my HV accuracy is lower, in some calibers it's higher. My 223 is actually the most accurate at the HV load often well below 1". That's the whole point to this. If you create the right vibration pattern and the bullet leaves the barrel on the node, you get accuracy. It's NO different than jacketed for me.

The way I approach every bullet design, every load attempted is to find the most accurate load for that rifle. Otherwise, the journey ain't worth the time. But the reality is not all my guns shoot as well as others. Not all bullets shoot as well or at as high a velocity in even the same gun. But that is exactly the same for me with jacketed. Cast booliteers understand this at 1800 fps, but their mind loses this concept when they start on up. They give up, as the limitation becomes the lead, not bullet fit or any of the thousand other possibilities that could be corrected and allow moving on up.

We had a 7MM Rem Mag once that was a one load wonder. It would shoot that load at 1/2" no matter how the rifle was bedded. Everything else was in the 2"s no matter how it was bedded. A rifle like that would not be cast friendly and a poor example to try. So accuracy is relative to the gun and how it is set-up.

I was hesitant to mention the 22-250 thing. You have to remember that that was 50 years ago. At a time when hand loading was to gain an advantage over factory stuff. And we probably pushed harder than we should have. Today, I don't even own a 22-250, it's the 223. The point was not our ignorance at that time. Not the superiority of the 40 grain bullet over 4000 fps but that it was done. But that jacketed performance WAS enhanced by the oil which tells me that it ain't the air tearing up the bullets, but the rifling in the gun from PRESSURE. I thought the lesson gained was worth the humiliation and understanding of how it was found.

I have pretty well outlined my thought processes between here and and the Acceleration Curve Thread. All the specifics are a matter of record on this board if you want to mine for them. Again I am here to tell you that there are no rules for shooting cast like cast. No right or wrong way. But when you want to start pushing higher velocity, the options that minimize pressure come to the forefront. If you heed their warning signs, you may continue. If you don't, you have just found your "RPM ceiling". Anyone wanting further communication on anything here, needs to use the PM feature. I don't want to appear to be harping on this subject although some out there may long have had that impression. :grin:

END of post.

[flhroy]

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

an interesting read on accuracy. you have probably seen it before but i just came across it and found it interesting and relative to the discussion here.

Roy

wish me luck. I'm off to elk camp in about an hour or so

[subsonic]

How do paper-patched bullets effect your max, accurate velocity?

I'd think that if you can push paper-patched cast lead faster than lubed cast lead, the answer would not be related to internal voids.

But I dont' know much about how fast you can go with paper patching.....

[45 2.1]

But I dont' know much about how fast you can go with paper patching.....

There have been some articles written about paper patched 30 caliber boolits going over 3000 fps out of a 300 Win Mag written.

[jhalcott]

Now a days, to ME at least handloading and shooting is done for pleasure! Just HITTING the target seems to tickle me. I have in the past fretted over all manner of things trying to get less than 1 inch groups from guns at hunting ranges. I've tried to get as high a velocity as possible with cast AND jacketed bullets. I enjoy reading about other peoples trial and tribulations following that road and smile a lot. In the years doing this ,I have damaged a few nice fire arms regrettably. I also learned a few things along the way. Enjoying living is one of them and worrying about ME didn;t make any difference is another.
I think subsonic is heading into this never land with his question about paper patching. I wish him luck.

[subsonic]

Now a days, to ME at least handloading and shooting is done for pleasure! Just HITTING the target seems to tickle me. I have in the past fretted over all manner of things trying to get less than 1 inch groups from guns at hunting ranges. I've tried to get as high a velocity as possible with cast AND jacketed bullets. I enjoy reading about other peoples trial and tribulations following that road and smile a lot. In the years doing this ,I have damaged a few nice fire arms regrettably. I also learned a few things along the way. Enjoying living is one of them and worrying about ME didn;t make any difference is another.
I think subsonic is heading into this never land with his question about paper patching. I wish him luck.


I'm not sure what you mean by that, but thanks?

[jhalcott]

I just think YOU might get caught up in "The Quest For Hi Velocity" for it's own sake. While it IS fun to play with speed ,getting trapped in speed for speed's sake starts to drain the fun factor quickly. You start to think differently, looking for any excuse to try another powder,bullet, lube or even paper. Having exceeded the 3000 fps with cast barrier,I speak with a bit of experience. When YOU wake up in the middle of the night to mix up a new ALLOY, you'll know what I mean.

[subsonic]

I see what you mean now.

I do like experiments.....

[scrapcan]

Jhalcott,

great point that you make. I try to make that same point frequently with friends who think handloading is only for reaching performance (speed in their minds) that you cannot get from factory ammo. I try very hard to get across that better performance does not always mean more speed. I find it very interesting that you can read some of the old recounts of african hunting with BP and Ball arms, but today we have to have the latest greatest big boomer magnum to shoot a 150 lb deer. I could go on and on, but I will not try to preach to the .....