45ACP 200 grain SWC as a defense load

[tazman]

Many 45ACP pistols will feed reliably and shoot very accurately with 200 grain SWC boolits. H&G 68 and Lyman 452460 are two examples.
My thought is that a 200 grain boolit with a nice sharp shoulder on it would make a very nasty boolit to use for home defense or self defense.
The 45 ACP can push this boolit up near 1000fps with standard pressure loads(according to Hodgdon data site).
I can't think that such a projectile traveling at that speed would do anything but ruin a person's day.
This all depends on your particular handgun's ability to handle the SWC design reliably.

What are your thoughts?

[bigted]

I am with you. The 44WCF and 45 Colt did very good for themselves for a very long time with energy levels under what the 200 swc has when loping along at 1000 fps.

Lotza animals were eaten with energy levels lower then this.

Can not imagine that a 200 grain chunk with sharp edges on the nose and hummin along at or near 1000 fps is going to do any part of the human anatomy any good when encountered with a center mass hit.

Heck I would carry this as my hunting choice in a heartbeat if it were not for losing brass every time I shot at a squirrel, rabbit or deer ... but energy wise, it would deliver within range of good accurate hits.

My two cents worth.

[Uncle Grinch]

I’ve carried a similar load for close to 30 years and although I’ve never had to use, I feel comfortable with it.

[Texas by God]

Occasionally I have to dispatch trapped feral hogs and I’ve used the .45 200 SWC Lee a few times and it works just fine. My load is 5grs of Bullseye so not quite 1000 FPS. None have required a second shot. As long as they run reliably in the pistol, they would be a good choice I think.

[Dale53]

I fired 75,000 rounds of full house loads (#68 H&G at 1000 fps.) over a five year period while shooting IPSC in the sixties and seventies through my 1911's without a failure to function. My 1911's were specially tuned. However, I also experimented with "untuned" 1911's and the real #68's functioned in nearly every 1911 I tried. That included issue 1911's as well as new commercial Colt's.

I also used the load extensively on edible small game. The load is VERY effective. Since I mostly shoot .45 ACP/.45 Auto rim revolvers these days, retrieving cases are not a problem in the field.

That load should be a GREAT defensive load.

FWIW
Dale53

[rfd]

absolutely. when i had a gaggle of 1911's that was my cartridge-of-choice build; 200gr SWC under a healthy dose of w231.

[Dan Cash]

A 220 grain bullet at 700 fps aka .45 S&W made many users very happy.

[Larry Gibson]

I've used Jeff Cooper's recommended "defense" 45 ACP load since I first read about many years ago; a 200- 205 gr H&G 68 SWC over 7.5 gr of Unique.

It runs 1000+ fps out of 5" M1911s, 1000 fps +/- out of 6 1/2" M25s and 950 +/- fps out of 5 1/2" M1917s. Bullets cast of COWW + 2% tin sized at .452 and lubed with BAC or any NRA 50/50 lube are always very accurate. This load runs a measured 18,700 - 19,000 psi as measured via Oehler M43 PBL in a Contender 45 ACP test barrel. The SAAMI MAP is 21,000 psi for the 45 ACP cartridge.

While I carry JHPs in my Combat Commander when carrying concealed I most often have Coopers load in it, if not my standard practice load [same H&G 68 bullet (I use Lee's version or Lee's 452-195-SWC} over 5 gr Bullseye for 850 fps], when out and about with the Commander, my M1911 Gvmt Mdl, my Para P14 or my M1917/25. I have shot numerous animals from small vermin up through deer with it and it worked just fine. I have no qualms about using either load for PD if the need arises.

[Patrick L]

As the OP said, I can't imagine getting hit with that and it not ruining my day...

[Winger Ed.]

For carry, I'm a fan of Hornady's self defense line of ammo.
My calibers of choice are .410 shotshell and .45ACP.

Hitting anything with a full house round that begins with ".4-something" will certainly break their concentration for doing evil.

[wv109323]

There are a few items that cause the human or an animal to cease functioning.
1.) Lack of oxygen
2.) Lack of or lose of blood
3.) Nerve function
4.) Bone or structural failure
5.) Organ failure or shock
During a shooting , lack of oxygen is usually not not a factor. The exception is some type of windpipe destruction. Even a lung shot is not critical until the lung fills with blood.
Loss of blood is critical when the brain or heart is involved. Big holes and multiple holes cause this to happen faster. A .45 hole is bigger than 9mm. A bigger bullet has a better chance of hitting an organ or nerve..Blood loss can be variable depending what the bullet hits.
A bullet at pistol velocities will not cause hydroshock, where damage is done outside the wound channel. A bullet must enter the body cavity and strike vital organs to cause sudden immobility or death.
A 200 grain .45 bullet at 900 fps meets these requirements.
My reading on the subject is shot placement is king. It not what you start with it is where the bullet ends up. Physics tilts the scale toward a larger well placed bullet. Most all attacks are stopped with one well placed bullet.

[Goldstar225]

I've long had the same thoughts about the viability of the 200 grain LSWC as a defensive load. At 850-900 FPS it should work well.

[tazman]

I've used Jeff Cooper's recommended "defense" 45 ACP load since I first read about many years ago; a 200- 205 gr H&G 68 SWC over 7.5 gr of Unique.

It runs 1000+ fps out of 5" M1911s, 1000 fps +/- out of 6 1/2" M25s and 950 +/- fps out of 5 1/2" M1917s. Bullets cast of COWW + 2% tin sized at .452 and lubed with BAC or any NRA 50/50 lube are always very accurate. This load runs a measured 18,700 - 19,000 psi as measured via Oehler M43 PBL in a Contender 45 ACP test barrel. The SAAMI MAP is 21,000 psi for the 45 ACP cartridge.

While I carry JHPs in my Combat Commander when carrying concealed I most often have Coopers load in it, if not my standard practice load [same H&G 68 bullet (I use Lee's version or Lee's 452-195-SWC} over 5 gr Bullseye for 850 fps], when out and about with the Commander, my M1911 Gvmt Mdl, my Para P14 or my M1917/25. I have shot numerous animals from small vermin up through deer with it and it worked just fine. I have no qualms about using either load for PD if the need arises.

Larry---Have you ever tried that load with the Lyman 452460?
I get slightly better groups in my pistols with the Lyman boolit.

[megasupermagnum]

The H&G #68 performs nearly identically to FMJ ball. Is that bad, or is that good? That's for the user to decide. I consider just about any bullet better in the 45, but I'd take the #68 before I took a 380 ACP with the best of the best ammo.

[Boogieman]

Lee's 200gr. H&G #68 style feeds 100% out of both of my Colts. I could not get the Lee 200gr, TL or RCBS 200g. to feed reliably . I get 2" groups at 50ft, two hand standing loaded to 900fps. JMB's original load was 900fps with a 200gr, bullet the Army wanted a 230gr.

[SSGOldfart]

The H&G #68 performs nearly identically to FMJ ball. Is that bad, or is that good? That's for the user to decide. I consider just about any bullet better in the 45, but I'd take the #68 before I took a 380 ACP with the best of the best ammo.

That's good

[Beerd]

JMB's original load was 900fps with a 200gr, bullet the Army wanted a 230gr.

that's the way I remember reading it too.
..

[Petrol & Powder]

There are a few items that cause the human or an animal to cease functioning.
1.) Lack of oxygen
2.) Lack of or lose of blood
3.) Nerve function
4.) Bone or structural failure
5.) Organ failure or shock
During a shooting , lack of oxygen is usually not not a factor. The exception is some type of windpipe destruction. Even a lung shot is not critical until the lung fills with blood.
Loss of blood is critical when the brain or heart is involved. Big holes and multiple holes cause this to happen faster. A .45 hole is bigger than 9mm. A bigger bullet has a better chance of hitting an organ or nerve..Blood loss can be variable depending what the bullet hits.
A bullet at pistol velocities will not cause hydroshock, where damage is done outside the wound channel. A bullet must enter the body cavity and strike vital organs to cause sudden immobility or death.
A 200 grain .45 bullet at 900 fps meets these requirements.
My reading on the subject is shot placement is king. It not what you start with it is where the bullet ends up. Physics tilts the scale toward a larger well placed bullet. Most all attacks are stopped with one well placed bullet.

/\ This is partially true and partially relevant but not completely true or completely relevant.

The goal is to stop the attacker. That requires rapid incapacitation and there are only a few ways to achieve that when dealing with humans.

1. A loss of oxygenated blood to the brain (loss of profusion).
2. Damage to the central nervous system that is severe enough to stop the attack
3. Loss of structural support that renders the attacker immobile.

Looking at each of those mechanisms in detail:
1. A large enough hole in a major blood vessel or the heart, will result in a rapid reduction of oxygenated blood reaching the brain and that will result in a loss of consciousness. That will stop the attack. This requires a big hole in an important blood vessel or the heart. It's not the bleeding that stops the fight but rather the lack of the blood that carries the oxygen to the brain that stops the fight. In order for this to be a rapid incapacitation it must be significant disruption of blood flow to the brain.

2. Damage to the central nervous system [CNS]. This can be very effective if the damage is in the right place. Damage to the lower spinal cord might prevent the attacker from standing or moving but if the attacker retains control of a firearm, they will be able to continue fighting. Damage high enough on the spinal cord or brain will stop the attack immediately. This is difficult to achieve due to the small size of the CNS and the fact that it is well protected in bone.

3. Loss of structural support will prevent the attacker from standing, running or walking but if the attacker retains control of a firearm, they will be able to continue fighting. If the attacker is armed with a knife or a club, the defender can simply walk away after immobilizing the attacker.

Of those three methods, the rapid loss of blood is the most reliable one to achieve with a handgun at close range. The critical pieces of anatomy are relatively large and not well shielded in bone.

SO, in order to rapidly incapacitate a human attacker the bullet must be capable of reaching something critical such as the aorta, heart, spinal cord, brain stem or pelvis AND be able to inflict significant damage to that important body part once it gets there.
With the exception of breaking a large bone, just about any projectile will work if it reaches the critical part and damages it once it gets there. Obviously if we are relying on a rapid loss of blood flow to the brain, it would be helpful if the projectile made a big hole in the blood vessel. (sharp jacket, deformed bullet, large diameter bullet). If we are hoping to break large bones, we will need a bullet with a lot of energy.

Lots of bullet wounds will kill an attacker but very few types of wounds will stop the attacker before he harms you. It does no good if your attacker dies two minutes after he manages to kill you.
Death of the attacker isn't the goal. Stopping the attack is.

[lightman]

That should make a good defense load. Just shoot enough of them to prove that your pistol cycles them dependably.

[Rodfac]

I've used the H&G #68 for years as a woods stompin', target and practice bullet. And once, & only once, to put down a doe that was lying in a creek below our barn, with a gangrenous arrow through her hams. We don't bow hunt and I searched our land for a bow hunter's deer stand with no luck.

One shot, just above the eyes, that was instantaneous. The bullet, backed by 5.4 gr of Win 231, penetrated though the frontal plate, to the spinal column, breaking the front part of one of the upper cervical bones.

Aside from the usual cautions regarding use of handloaded ammunition for CC, I'd think that a 200 gr SWC would be good defensive round. But as a hunting round for deer, there are far better choices. YMMv, and I only carry factory ammunition when I go concealed. Rod

[tazman]

My thoughts are to use this boolit in my home defense guns. When at home, I am not the least concerned about what the courts may think of the ammunition I use to defend my family and property.
When I concealed carry, I will be using either 38 Special or 9mm depending on my whim or circumstances. My choice of projectile will depend on what I think will do the best job for me.

One of the considerations is how far the boolit would travel after going through a bad guy. It certainly won't have a tremendous amount of energy left after passing through a man, the wall, and siding. This supposes it gets that far. I doubt it will penetrate like a round nose or FMJ would.

[megasupermagnum]

My thoughts are to use this boolit in my home defense guns. When at home, I am not the least concerned about what the courts may think of the ammunition I use to defend my family and property.
When I concealed carry, I will be using either 38 Special or 9mm depending on my whim or circumstances. My choice of projectile will depend on what I think will do the best job for me.

One of the considerations is how far the boolit would travel after going through a bad guy. It certainly won't have a tremendous amount of energy left after passing through a man, the wall, and siding. This supposes it gets that far. I doubt it will penetrate like a round nose or FMJ would.

You might be surprised. It penetrates like mad.

[tazman]

You might be surprised. It penetrates like mad.

Interesting. I would have thought the 200 grain boolit with a "flatter" front end would slow down more as it went through stuff.
I have never seen a penetration test with this type of boolit so I don't really have any data to go by. If you know of a test, please send me a link. I would love to check it out.

[Petrol & Powder]

The criteria for self-defense handgun cartridge are as follows and in this order:
1. It MUST be 100% reliable in the selected firearm. Any failure to function in a given firearm is a no-go.
2. It would be nice to have the best possible terminal performance.
3. it needs to be reasonably accurate.

Failure to meet the first criteria is an absolute deal-breaker.
The second criteria is open to a lot of debate because handguns aren't all that great at stopping people. We carry handguns because it is impractical to go about your daily life with a pump action shotgun carried at port arms all day / every day.
The third criteria is the tie breaker if you find more than one cartridge that meets the first two criteria.

I understand the issue of over penetration but I think that issue is given far too much weight. It would be ideal if the bullet always penetrated the exact needed distance to stop the fight. That's just not possible over the infinite variety of possible scenarios. If there is going to be a failure, I would rather have a bullet that over penetrates than one that fails to penetrate enough.

If my option was a 45ACP with a 200 grain SWC in the H&G #68 style - I think I could make that work. As long as it was 100% reliable in my pistol. Cast it fairly soft and drive it as fast as possible without exceeding acceptable pressures.

[tazman]

All my 45 pistols feed the H&G 68 and the Lyman 452460 as close to perfect as it does a 230 rn. Accuracy is great.
I am not too worried about over penetration since my nearest neighbor is nearly 100 yards away.
I don't plan on doing concealed carry with any of my 45ACP pistols. This is a home defense situation.
I do have a shotgun in the bedroom but I may not be able to get to it depending on where I am when trouble shows up.
I have weapons stashed where I can get them quickly no matter where I am in the house.
I am old and slow now so If I need it super fast, I won't be fast enough anyway.

[megasupermagnum]

Interesting. I would have thought the 200 grain boolit with a "flatter" front end would slow down more as it went through stuff.
I have never seen a penetration test with this type of boolit so I don't really have any data to go by. If you know of a test, please send me a link. I would love to check it out.

This isn't exactly scientific, but I like Paul Harrel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gtTEEm1-1A

Two of the SWC's glanced off, but the two that went in, went through the meat target, and deep into the fleece. Compare that to the FMJ ball, which two were stopped by the ribs, and two just went a little into the fleece. For the most part I consider SWC and ball ammo equal for most purposes. I'll have to keep my eye out for proper ballistic gel testing.

[Petrol & Powder]

All my 45 pistols feed the H&G 68 and the Lyman 452460 as close to perfect as it does a 230 rn. Accuracy is great.
I am not too worried about over penetration since my nearest neighbor is nearly 100 yards away.
I don't plan on doing concealed carry with any of my 45ACP pistols. This is a home defense situation.
I do have a shotgun in the bedroom but I may not be able to get to it depending on where I am when trouble shows up.
I have weapons stashed where I can get them quickly no matter where I am in the house.
I am old and slow now so If I need it super fast, I won't be fast enough anyway.

I would say you have answered your own question.
100% reliability in a gun you already have and are familiar with. - DONE.

[tazman]

This isn't exactly scientific, but I like Paul Harrel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gtTEEm1-1A

Two of the SWC's glanced off, but the two that went in, went through the meat target, and deep into the fleece. Compare that to the FMJ ball, which two were stopped by the ribs, and two just went a little into the fleece. For the most part I consider SWC and ball ammo equal for most purposes. I'll have to keep my eye out for proper ballistic gel testing.

Thanks for posting that video. I watch a lot of Paul Harrel's videos but had not seen this one. I think my alloy is somewhat softer than what he was using in his test. That said, I don't think it would make a lot of difference.



I would say you have answered your own question.
100% reliability in a gun you already have and are familiar with. - DONE.

When you put it that way, I believe you are right.
I didn't know if someone knew of a real downside to what I was suggesting. It appears there really isn't one.
We are good to go.
Thanks to all for your replies.
tazman

[Gunslinger1911]

Tazman, I have the same thought process, that sharp shoulder on the 200 will wreck a goblins day.
I have carried a Officers 45 for many decades, ran the Mihec version of the H&G 68 for most of that time (prob 10's of thousands of that bullet down range ), only changed when I got the Mihec 230g with the massive HP. (just looks nasty, don't think it will actually do better or worse than the 200).
As said, as long as it's 100 % reliable, go with it.

[megasupermagnum]

The shoulder of a SWC never touches flesh. I believe Veral Smith is most commonly quoted as having proven this.

[35remington]

Ross Seyfried used sanded gelatin to supposedly make that point. As well as shooting holes in fresh beef hide. An exception might be a SWC with a very small meplat.

[johniv]

There are some that don’t agree with Mr. Smith.

[35remington]

It was a contentious topic in Handloader magazine certainly, with some questionable methods used in an attempt to prove the point as to whether the shoulder actually had an effect.

[Up North]

I don't see any problem with that load.a lot of 44 special revolvers are loaded with 200g bullets at 900fps and their owners feel well armed. If you can accurately hit a target with with a 200g bullet I think it's a good home defence round.

[tazman]

In all honesty, I don't care if the shoulder cuts or not. As long as it is accurate and reliable, it will do the job. It's certainly big enough.

[gnostic]

Chip McCormick and Rob Leatham recommended the 200 grain SWC and 5 grain of Bullseye in the mid 90's. It's doubtful things changed since then. Just looking at the holes SWC bullets leave in paper targets, it's hard to imagine the shoulder isn't contacting the target....

[35remington]

I must say I don’t care either. It does what it does.

The most honest assessment of its effect that I have seen is that the shoulder hits skin if it strikes skin stretched over bone upon impact, or clips the edge of bone, but has no effect traversing soft tissue as the sides of the bullet, including the shoulder, draft in the temporary cavity caused by the meplat.

[tazman]

I must say I don’t care either. It does what it does.

The most honest assessment of its effect that I have seen is that the shoulder hits skin if it strikes skin stretched over bone upon impact, or clips the edge of bone, but has no effect traversing soft tissue as the sides of the bullet, including the shoulder, draft in the temporary cavity caused by the meplat.

That last part would explain how it penetrates so well for a "light for caliber" boolit. I expect it will do at least as much damage as a 230 round nose. It is also easier to control for a second shot if needed.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have researched just such a load..
CCI made a Blazer Alu load for IPSC that was 200gr SWC tmj at about 950ish from a 5 in.
Fantastic load [no you can't have mine]
A 5 gr Bullseye load will about match it.
The 200 gr swc will drive DEEP , at least as much as a 230fmj rn.
For fun, Check out the 45-08 wildcat from Canada..
Used by guides for bear defence .
200 gr hard cast swc at 1300 from a 5in [reworked] 1911.
Guides said they drove clear through....
This would be close to a 45super here in the US.
The shoulders of a swc does not touch the meat [ paper is different] .
The flat nose pushes out the tissue [air also] and "does the work".
For a modern loading, try the Speer Lawman 200 gr rn fp tmj "range load" [normal and +p] if you can find it....
Alaskan people have tested and find it drives deep to......

[johniv]

Yeah I just know it works on game better than FMJ.

[Drm50]

I shot a deer with 185gr WC at 750fps. 40yds, kilt it dead, it did flop for a few seconds but through shot had a great effect on its oil pressure. 44special.

[megasupermagnum]

I shot a deer with 185gr WC at 750fps. 40yds, kilt it dead, it did flop for a few seconds but through shot had a great effect on its oil pressure. 44special.

A wadcutter is a different deal. That's a bullet with essentially a .420" meplat. The H&G #68 has about a .180" meplat, about what you find on many 30 caliber cast bullets. If you could get a 200 grain FN 30 caliber bullet to penetrate straight at 900 fps, it would be about as effective as the 45 acp H&G #68. I would think such a load would tumble the second it hit, so there really is no comparison.

I would always choose the H&G #68 over a FMJ in 45 acp, unless there is a reliability problem. I would also choose a 255 gr SWC or flat nose over the #68 if hunting. The #68 is a very accurate target bullet first, that also does a good job for other purposes.

[Bigslug]

Interesting. I would have thought the 200 grain boolit with a "flatter" front end would slow down more as it went through stuff.
I have never seen a penetration test with this type of boolit so I don't really have any data to go by. If you know of a test, please send me a link. I would love to check it out.

Taz, this is a 230 grain bullet with a .32" meplat at hardball speed, but it kinda illustrates what megasupermagnum is talking about:

256357

The fired one on the right was recovered from the ninth gallon milk jug in the stack. If I had a bizarre need to defensively kill an elk with a 1911, I would have ZERO doubts about that load being able to make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop.

30 grains less metal but maybe 200 fps faster with less frontal area may not be something I'd take on a Panzer tank with, but I'd consider recovery from a human torso doubtful.

I imagine what you're likely going to have is a similar terminal effect to hardball, but with less recoil.

[jonp]

I run the Lee out of mine and use it for plinking with my 45LC's. Works great for me.

[tazman]

I imagine what you're likely going to have is a similar terminal effect to hardball, but with less recoil.

That is exactly what I am looking for.

[tazman]

I did a little checking today on meplat sizes. It seems most of the damage from a boolit is inflicted by the meplat. The larger the meplat, the more damage is done.
Most 45ACP SWC boolits have relatively small meplat area.
I just checked the Lee 452-200 RF. It has a .340 meplat. Considerably larger than any of the others. These feed like water through a funnel in all my 45ACP pistols.
I tested these in my guns yesterday and got excellent accuracy in all the pistols.
I think I may have found the best choice for my 200 grain load.

[Boogieman]

What was the OAL of that load. My Colts won't feed 100% with any thing under 1.240"

[tazman]

I don't have any loaded this instant. I shot the ones I had loaded at the range.
I had the boolit seated at the top edge of the crimp groove right at the mouth of the case. So 1.150 for OAL.
This runs through my Springfield mil spec without any issues. I have not modified my ramp or barrel from factory dimensions. I also have a spare barrel that is from a Colt 70 series that fits in that 1911 and they work fine there also.
What I was trying them for was my Springfield XDM 45.
I originally loaded them for an XD 45 and they worked there also.

[Boogieman]

I've tried Lee's 200gr. TL and RCBS 200gr. SWC They both will stove pipe on the last round. Lee's H&G style 200gr. works fine loaded at 1.250" OAL This is my every day carry load.

[megasupermagnum]

I've tried Lee's 200gr. TL and RCBS 200gr. SWC They both will stove pipe on the last round. Lee's H&G style 200gr. works fine loaded at 1.250" OAL This is my every day carry load.

That's the biggest disadvantage of a semi-auto in my opinion. It doesn't matter how great a bullet is if it doesn't feed well. Some seem to feed anything, some are touchy. Anything that only feeds hardball is broken IMO, but many disagree.

[tazman]

I went to my reloading room and made up a few of them to check. The correct OAL for my load is 1.150.
I corrected the previous post.

[35remington]

It is really not a knock against an autoloader that they work well at a particular overall length assuming that encompasses suitable ammo. Too short is inherently less reliable.

Once it is figured out it is better to feed the gun what it wants rather than what you want to feed it life gets a lot more rewarding and much less aggravating.

[35remington]

One may notice, for instance, that jacketed HP designs for the 45 ACP have gravitated toward looking exactly like a ball round that has a hollowpoint scooped out of it. They didn’t used to look like that.

Another example of figuring out what feeds reliably and going with it. Only took decades, which seems odd in retrospect.

[tazman]

I have noticed that. Also the Lee 200 rf has the shape of a ball round with the tip of the nose cut off. May be why it works for me.

[ddixie884]

A good long nosed 200gr swc at @900fps does a lot of things very well. I would feel safe for SD as long as my gun was 100% reliable. Otherwise I'd use ball.........

[jrayborn]

The .45 ACP does a lot of things right. Hardball or SWC are both reasonable choices so long as they are reliable. There could be a better choice of course, but in most cases I think it's splitting hairs.