45acp LSWC, Fail

[kmw1954]

Today I finally got a chance to test fire these 200gr LSWC bullets I cast a while back. Was able to try these in two different guns, a Springfield XD Mod2 and a Tanfoglio Witness. Now I know there was a thread somewhere regarding the SWC being used in the XD and the problems many had but now of course I cant find it.

Right away I was having cycling and chambering problems with both guns a couple ended up with crushing on the case mouth and the bullet shoulder. I couldn't even get 10 rounds through either gun and gave up. Maybe it's time to look for a RN or a FP mold.

These are all loaded at 1.235" and there is barely and shoulder protruding from the case mouth. Had to seat these deep just to pass the plunk test.

[Winger Ed.]

I've got a older XD and it can be a little 'difficult' with taper crimped cast- that run like a dream through a Gold Cup.

I figure it's partly because the Colt has been throated, tuned and tricked out for shooting cast.
The XD is the same as the day it was born, and the Lead boolits don't like the un-modified throat/feed ramp.

You might try the Lee 200 trunciated cone shaped boolit.
I shot them awhile in a couple of unmodified guns,
and they gave the least feeding problems compared to that stumpy looking RCBS 195.

[Burnt Fingers]

I've got an XD45. I won't work with SWC bullets. The empty brass coming back contacts the mouth of the case waiting to be fed and peels the brass back.

[derek45]

sounds like you have an excuse to buy a tuned 1911

[kmw1954]

sounds like you have an excuse to buy a tuned 1911

Sounds more like I have an excuse to buy a new mold. I don't need any more pistols, don't have time to shoot all I have. Besides I've shot 1911's and I don't like them.

[Outpost75]

Send your barrel to DougGuy to have him throat it for SWCs before you spend more money on the gun.

He does this inexpensively and probably would need to be done anyway, but for now work on the cheapest part and don't spend money on other gunsmithing you may not need.

Magazines also deserve checking as they are a common cause of trouble.

[tazman]

I've got an XD45. I won't work with SWC bullets. The empty brass coming back contacts the mouth of the case waiting to be fed and peels the brass back.

This is the problem.
The Brass extends below the slide and impacts the ledge on the SWC as it comes back, damaging the brass and causing failures to feed, ect.
The only solution I was able to find is to use one of three boolit types.
Round nose preferably something that duplicates hardball. Lyman 452374. Not sure the Lee tl452-230-r2 will work due to the step.
RNFP the Lee 200 grain runs well.
TC Truncated cone works well also

You cannot have any shelf near the case mouth or the empty brass will hit it on the way out.
The XDM doesn't have this issue because the bottom of the slide was changed to account for it.

I think the thread you remember was mine a few months ago. I was having that issue with an XD full size 45acp with results the same as yours.

Outpost 75-----The problem the OP is having is unrelated to the chamber or barrel throat. It is a design issue with the gun/slide. It can only be controlled by the boolit design.

[shootinfox2]

200 gr rnfp will cure what might be a feeding problem. Kimber will feed the 200 SWC , bit others won’t. Switched to 200 rnfp all is well.

[kmw1954]

Both of these guns fire Berry's 185gr and 200gr Flat Point beautifully. I had read from many of problems with the 45acp SWC and just thought I would give it a chance as the mold only cost me $20.00 So it's not like I'm out a ton of money on the mold. I have a good buddy that has a 1911 so I will pass these 40 loaded round of to him and see if they will work. These are all just workup loads so they are just at or just above the start charge.

It was fun trying these but I'm not going to fight with them or send out my guns to be altered just to be able to shoot lead..

[derek45]

Sounds more like I have an excuse to buy a new mold. I don't need any more pistols, don't have time to shoot all I have. Besides I've shot 1911's and I don't like them.

Well the 200gr SWC works best with match grade 1911's

It's not a good choice for a general purpose 45ACP bullet.

[Rich/WIS]

My ex SIL had a Springfield XDM and a Range Officer, and the he shot the Lee 453-200 SWC in both. OAL was 1.22+ and taper crimped. Not sure if his XDM was a later model but saw at least 1K through the gun without any issues. My experience with the SWC design seems to show that OAL is critical to feeding issues and needs to be determined by trial and error, but the problem with damage to the following rounds is a new one to me.

[Plate plinker]

Sounds more like I have an excuse to buy a new mold. I don't need any more pistols, don't have time to shoot all I have. Besides I've shot 1911's and I don't like them.

So your one of those guys ehhhh? Blasphemy!

Kidding aside I would look at a TC or RN profile.

[kmw1954]

So your one of those guys ehhhh? Blasphemy!

Kidding aside I would look at a TC or RN profile.

Yes one of Those, I always like to be the outlier! Actually just inherited a slew of handguns. Some of I know I will never shoot and I have shot many different models of 1911 and to me they just are mot comfortable.

Have a new RNFP mold coming.

[David2011]

Before giving up on 1911s, please consider what can easily be accomplished with one. It can be an incredible powder puff shooter. You can put a lighter than stock recoil spring in it and shoot low velocity loads with the 200 gr swc. I would go with an 8 pound recoil spring and Titegroup. Start at 4.0 grains of Titegroup and work down (or up if necessary) for the lightest load that cycles reliably. Children and anyone who is recoil sensitive will love it. —Or don’t, just a thought. I have one that throws 200 gr boolits at about 650 FPS but it took a lot of gunsmithing to get it to work with a load that light. Recoil is a little stronger than a .22 pistol.

[DougGuy]

If you can look down the barrel and see rifling all the way down to the chamber mouth/headspace ledge, like the barrel on the left, nothing you do will make your chosen COA work, and seating deeper only creates a secondary problem as a poor workaround for the root cause. SAAMI specs call for freebore like the barrel on the right, but none of the mfgrs could be bothered to throat their barrels beyond what it takes for 2-3 kinds of factory JHP ammo to work.

The barrel on the right will plunk and feed anything you can cycle through the magazine.

https://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg (https://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg.html)




Outpost 75-----The problem the OP is having is unrelated to the chamber or barrel throat. It is a design issue with the gun/slide. It can only be controlled by the boolit design.

According to what the OP said in his first post, he has to seat real deep to get a 200gr LSWC to plunk so I would say there is a definite lack of throat. In addition to feeding out of the magazine, an LSWC seated out with .060" or more proud of the case mouth would make it feed much smoother than having that abrupt sharp corner that seating one deep produces. Throating the barrel works wonders in most cases since not only does it let a longer COA plunk, it allows for a COA that cures feeding problems more times than not.

[Iowa Fox]

I was very pleased to find my 1911 will run flawlessly with the 452389 and 3.5 grains of bullseye just as it came from the factory.

[tazman]

DougGuy---- You do great work. I have made use of your services so I know how good you are at what you do.
The problem the OP has, has nothing to do with chamber throats or OAL, magazines, or feed ramps. The problem happens when the fired case is coming out of the chamber as the slide is moving rearwards.
With the XD, at least the early models(this problem was fixed for the XDm) in the 45 ACP versions, the slide doesn't fully support the cartridge head during extraction. The bottom of the cartridge head extends a little below the bottom of the slide even when fully chambered. When the cartridge is fired and the barrel unlocks and drops down slightly, taking the case head with it. That bottom portion of the case head (hopefully)rides the top of the uppermost cartridge in the magazine, pushing it down slightly until the slide is all the way back and the empty brass ejects from the gun.
If the top cartridge in the magazine has a ledge or step right in front of the case mouth, the bottom of the fired case will strike that ledge causing a slowdown in slide movement and often damaging the top cartridge in the magazine. It hits with enough force to often peel back the brass at the mouth of the case enough that the cartridge cannot be fed into the chamber due to deformation.
You can duplicate this without firing the pistol. Simply load a semi wadcutter or any boolit with a ledge into the magazine and put another in the chamber and close the slide. Pull the slide back without firing the gun. The bottom of the cartridge head will hit the ledge on the cartridge in the magazine and mark the boolit and case. It may not happen every time, but will usually happen at least 2-3 time or more per magazine full.
Any boolit with a clean smooth nose taper to the mouth of the case will allow the bottom of the fired brass to safely ride over it. Good boolits are Lyman 452374, Lee RNFP, and the Lee truncated cone.
The H&G 68 clones all will exhibit the same problem due to the ledge built into the front of the boolit as will the Lyman 452460.
In the XDm 45, they built up a small tapered area right below the face so the built up part rides over the top cartridge in the magaine and pushes it down out of the way of the fired case as it comes out of the chamber.
The XDm pistols will feed anything. I have heard but cannot prove that the later models of the XD 45 had something similar done to fix the issue but can't say for certain.
It sounds like the OP's Tangfolio has something similar going on.

[fredj338]

I have 2 XD45 & neither is 100% reliable with a LSWC, regardless of how I crimp or OAL. So I go TC or FP or RN. My 1911s will feed anything.

[brewer12345]

I shoot a lot of the SWC in my XDM. The critical success factor is to be very careful with the plunk test. As long as I can get it to plunk, the rounds cycle nicely even at a modest 4.5 grains of bullseye charge. If I get lazy about checking the plunk, no Bueno.

[kmw1954]

The problem the OP has, has nothing to do with chamber throats or OAL, magazines, or feed ramps. The problem happens when the fired case is coming out of the chamber as the slide is moving rearwards.
With the XD, at least the early models(this problem was fixed for the XDm) in the 45 ACP versions, the slide doesn't fully support the cartridge head during extraction. The bottom of the cartridge head extends a little below the bottom of the slide even when fully chambered. When the cartridge is fired and the barrel unlocks and drops down slightly, taking the case head with it. That bottom portion of the case head (hopefully)rides the top of the uppermost cartridge in the magazine, pushing it down slightly until the slide is all the way back and the empty brass ejects from the gun.
If the top cartridge in the magazine has a ledge or step right in front of the case mouth, the bottom of the fired case will strike that ledge causing a slowdown in slide movement and often damaging the top cartridge in the magazine. It hits with enough force to often peel back the brass at the mouth of the case enough that the cartridge cannot be fed into the chamber due to deformation.

Any boolit with a clean smooth nose taper to the mouth of the case will allow the bottom of the fired brass to safely ride over it. Good boolits are Lyman 452374, Lee RNFP, and the Lee truncated cone.

The XDm pistols will feed anything. I have heard but cannot prove that the later models of the XD 45 had something similar done to fix the issue but can't say for certain.
It sounds like the OP's Tangfolio has something similar going on.

Tazman that is exactly what I was witnessing from both guns. I have 2 unfired rounds that show that contact and peeling you describe. I couldn't even get a full magazine to function and I tried 2 in each gun.

After talking with a member on THR we worked out a mold swap. My Lee 200gr SWC for a Lee 200gr RNFP. So I will cast some of these once I get them and try again.

DougGuy I also just inspected the barrels and both the Witness and the XD are somewhere in-between the two samples you pictured. I thought the Witness would be problematic anyways as I have difficulties with just plated bullets in it and I find with both guns even with Berry's Flat Point bullets I have to load them deeper in order for them to reliably chamber.

[Winger Ed.]

Something I hadn't seen mentioned that might work for ya is get a 230RN mold,
ease on up closer to max. speed/pressure, and powder coat.

I don't PC, but I've handled a couple 230 RNs that were, and they are at least as slick as a factory RN
and plenty hard enough not to 'skid' on feeding.

That might trick the XD into thinking you're shooting 'GI hardball' or factory RN J-words.

It won't cut holes like a SWC, but you can still see them without a spotting scope.

[DougGuy]

DougGuy I also just inspected the barrels and both the Witness and the XD are somewhere in-between the two samples you pictured. I thought the Witness would be problematic anyways as I have difficulties with just plated bullets in it and I find with both guns even with Berry's Flat Point bullets I have to load them deeper in order for them to reliably chamber.

Some makers do have a little freebore, but it's often the case that the diameter of it is too small to seat a .452" out as far as you would like to. More like .451" - .4515" but I have pinned out Glocks at .453" on more than one occasion so there are exceptions.

In early 1911 production it was common to see hardball with .453" bullets and having a barrel throat that would plunk those was pretty much the norm as the 1911 was specifically designed to handle any ammo in pretty much any condition. If my memory serves me correctly, .453" was and STILL IS the SAAMI spec for 45 ACP hardball.

[kmw1954]

Just as an update a bullet change seems to have made a world of difference. The new one is a Lee 200gr 452 RNFP.

Will be starting a new thread more in line with that bullet. Thanks everyone!