Hodgdon Triple 8 Powder????

[Markopolo]

wow.. something new... Triple 8 Powder... something that MSM brought up on a new Muzzle loader loading system as a joint venture between federal and traditions..

I dont wanna Hijack MSM's thread
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?395205-Muzzleloading-hunting-has-officially-gone-too-far!

i am more interested in the actual powder.. is it another BP Substitute? nitro? Nitrate?? cleaner? anybody know anything about it?? just wondering whats out there is all..

Marko

[M-Tecs]

https://www.nmlra.org/news/What_Is_Hodgdon_triple_eight

We spoke with representatives from both Hodgdon and Traditions at SHOT Show 2020, and right now there are no plans to release Hodgdon Triple Eight to the public. It has been designed specifically for the Federal Fire Stickand Traditions Nitro Fire Rifles.

[Markopolo]

i read somewhere that it was a proprietary thing for one year while they launch the new firestick stuff, then after that, possibly??

[megasupermagnum]

Who knows. I would think it is likely at some point that it be introduced for sale. It has a tall road to climb if it is going to beat Blackhorn 209 as the cleanest and most accurate substitute.

[brewer12345]

I am just hoping for a new incarnation of Black MZ.

[RU shooter]

Just wish some would come up with a sub powder that will go bang in a flinter without a kicker charge of real black powder then I could just go into Walmart and buy it and hot have to mail order or drive over half the state to the one or two shops that still handle it

[Markopolo]

yea, I dont have available any BH 209... i did manage to get about 10lbs of Alliant Black from a buddy in Juneau, and thanks to a float plane, it arrived safely beginning of fall... but I am always on the lookout for something clean burning for my muzzleloaders, and BP cartridge stuff... I did try the alliant Black in my 32 win and it was pretty nice with the 160g flat nose I hunt with.. a lot cleaner then my home made stuff or pyrodex. i would love to try some of the Blackhorn 209 but around here, that stuff is mythical... if MSM haddent assured me it actually exists, i would have had to call it vaporware... :kidding:

[FergusonTO35]

If 888 shoots as great as 777 and is as easy to clean as smokeless sign me up!

[megasupermagnum]

Here is how I see the substitutes. There are a number that came and went in just a few years. The mainstays are Pyrodex, 777, 777 pellets and Blackhorn 209.

Pyrodex is outdated, and might as well be discontinued. It doesn't perform as well as blackpowder, and is more corrosive. I wouldn't even wait overnight to clean, the stuff is nasty. Water works fine.

777 powder is great in that it provides the most velocity of any of the subs, and is somewhere between blackpowder and BH209 as far as fouling. It cleans great with water.

777 pellets are convenient, but you loose a ton of velocity. Their fouling isn't bad, but they are notorious for the 777 "crud ring". I never saw any fantastic accuracy from 777 pellets. 777 powder and BH209 always shot better. The biggest problem is that they only work in certain rifles, only only certain calibers, and only in inline designs (unless you do a few tricks). I find it a PITA to clean out. One, although unproven problem I have found is that they do not last long. They loose power after a year, and by 5 years they may cause all kinds of problems. My theory is that they are hydroscopic and the unsealed container lets them absorb moisture. Real blackpowder is NOT hydroscopic.

Blackhorn 209's main disadvantage is that it is the farthest from true blackpowder. It doesn't smoke much, doesn't foul much, it is basically a dirtier bulk smokeless powder. It also cannot be used in any rifle, It needs a strong 209 primer, and a modern breech plug design. You can clean with water, but a solvent works better.

None of them works well in a flintlock. Some use BH209 in a percussion sidelock with a MagSpark 209 adapter, but it's not perfect. 777 powder can work in a percussion gun, but will never be as reliable as blackpowder. That's what I really love about blackpowder. It will ALWAYS go bang if there is no blockage. I don't have that confidence in any of the subs unless you are shooting a 209 primer right into them (inline design).

[Markopolo]

has anybody tried BH 209 in a cartridge??? are you saying MSM that BH could have trouble igniting in a cartridge with a Large Rifle Primer?? that would be something to consider...if that was the case...

[Tripplebeards]

I’ll lay money on it it’s the same powder just compressed in a cartridge. I couldn’t legally use that goofy thing in Wisconsin during muzzleloader season.

[megasupermagnum]

has anybody tried BH 209 in a cartridge??? are you saying MSM that BH could have trouble igniting in a cartridge with a Large Rifle Primer?? that would be something to consider...if that was the case...

No, BH209 works very well in a cartridge. I do not know how it would work with a rifle primer in a muzzleloader, as such things are a custom deal. There are a bunch of specially watered down 209 primers just for muzzleloaders, and they work well with 777. BH209 does not though, and works fantastic with real shotgun primers, the Federal 209A, Winchester 209, and CCI 209M are considered the best. I only use the Federal 209A myself. In a cartridge, BH209 works fine. I've only ever tried it in straight wall cartridges, but there is load data on Western powders website for all number of cartridges. You can't fit enough in any case to cause problems. It might make a cool replacement for Trailboss, especially in a rifle, but at close to $60 per pound, BH209 is just too expensive. Don't be fooled by the packaging, they are only 10 ounces.

[dtknowles]

This is a totally disturbing thread.

I have real black, 777, Pyrodex, and some pellets of each. I have not shot my muzzleloaders in years and the stuff is in a drawer. Is my Pyrodex and 777 only good for plinking now. Is it at least worth shooting at all.
I have a appliance that replaces the nipple on my rifle so I can use regular primers. Do I need to use magnum primers, will primers work with subs. Percussion caps went way up in price. The Firestick thing is just wacky like here we can use single shot rifles in muzzleloading season, some restrictions may apply.

tim

[megasupermagnum]

This is a totally disturbing thread.

I have real black, 777, Pyrodex, and some pellets of each. I have not shot my muzzleloaders in years and the stuff is in a drawer. Is my Pyrodex and 777 only good for plinking now. Is it at least worth shooting at all.
I have a appliance that replaces the nipple on my rifle so I can use regular primers. Do I need to use magnum primers, will primers work with subs. Percussion caps went way up in price. The Firestick thing is just wacky like here we can use single shot rifles in muzzleloading season, some restrictions may apply.

tim

It shouldn't be disturbing. Dozens of substitute powders have came and went over the years. Passing a cartridge rifle off as a muzzleloader is though.

Blackpowder does not go bad, this has been proven by the fact there is pre-civil war powder that still works. I've never had 777 powder or Pyrodex long enough to have a clue. It doesn't go bad in 5 years. I never tried Pyrodex pellets, they discontinued them a long time ago. Your 777 pellets though are probably bad. you can shoot them, but you will be able to tell the difference. Where you used to get a bang, you get a ffffffooof. I don't even trust them enough to leave them loaded in a gun for a month. I've seen where a rifle loaded on day one was shot 2 months later and had a delay.

What do you consider regular primers? I've found standard #11 caps work fine with blackpowder, but to shoot a long string, say 30+ shots, you have to be more meticulous. I use nothing but CCI #11 magnum caps now, and it does help. If I didn't have such a store of #11 magnums, I might even consider musket caps, which are about as strong. You can get different adapters, the MagSpark is popular, and uses 209 shotgun primers. A shotgun 209 will not have any problem with any sub powder, although pellets do not work in a side lock.

[tomme boy]

Once open pyrodex goes bad in about 4 years.

[rodwha]

My father gave me 3 cans of Pyrodex maybe 7-8 years ago. Two were opened and one had a price tag of $9.99. They worked just fine, though I hate the powder. I also have T7 that’s been open no less than 7 years and it worked just fine last I used it. But I also put desiccant packs in it (T7). I live in central TX where it’s nice and humid.

But I prefer Olde Eynsford powder.

[megasupermagnum]

My father gave me 3 cans of Pyrodex maybe 7-8 years ago. Two were opened and one had a price tag of $9.99. They worked just fine, though I hate the powder. I also have T7 that’s been open no less than 7 years and it worked just fine last I used it. But I also put desiccant packs in it (T7). I live in central TX where it’s nice and humid.

But I prefer Olde Eynsford powder.

Is that 777 powder or 777 pellets? I find the biggest problem is with the 777 pellets. If I were to store them, I would add desiccant, and try to seal the plastic container with tape around the seam. They do not last years left alone in their usual packaging.

[dtknowles]

It shouldn't be disturbing. Dozens of substitute powders have came and went over the years. Passing a cartridge rifle off as a muzzleloader is though.

Blackpowder does not go bad, this has been proven by the fact there is pre-civil war powder that still works. I've never had 777 powder or Pyrodex long enough to have a clue. It doesn't go bad in 5 years. I never tried Pyrodex pellets, they discontinued them a long time ago. Your 777 pellets though are probably bad. you can shoot them, but you will be able to tell the difference. Where you used to get a bang, you get a ffffffooof. I don't even trust them enough to leave them loaded in a gun for a month. I've seen where a rifle loaded on day one was shot 2 months later and had a delay.

What do you consider regular primers? I've found standard #11 caps work fine with blackpowder, but to shoot a long string, say 30+ shots, you have to be more meticulous. I use nothing but CCI #11 magnum caps now, and it does help. If I didn't have such a store of #11 magnums, I might even consider musket caps, which are about as strong. You can get different adapters, the MagSpark is popular, and uses 209 shotgun primers. A shotgun 209 will not have any problem with any sub powder, although pellets do not work in a side lock.

By regular primers I mean standard large rifle primers. Why do you say that pellets do not work in a side lock. I don't remember if I have used them in my side lock. The only inline I have is a 10ML but I only use smokeless in it. I actually have two side locks but the Hawken is hanging over the fireplace and I don't shoot it. I am pretty sure I tried some pellets in my Ruger Old Army with #11 caps with no problems.

I tried the adapter for large rifle primers in my New Englander side lock muzzle loader but I don't remember what powder I used. It was more than a decade ago, might even have been two decades ago. I did not have magnum large rifle primers then so I know I used a standard primer.

Tim

[dtknowles]

It shouldn't be disturbing. Dozens of substitute powders have came and went over the years. Passing a cartridge rifle off as a muzzleloader is though.

Blackpowder does not go bad, this has been proven by the fact there is pre-civil war powder that still works. I've never had 777 powder or Pyrodex long enough to have a clue. It doesn't go bad in 5 years. I never tried Pyrodex pellets, they discontinued them a long time ago. Your 777 pellets though are probably bad. you can shoot them, but you will be able to tell the difference. Where you used to get a bang, you get a ffffffooof. I don't even trust them enough to leave them loaded in a gun for a month. I've seen where a rifle loaded on day one was shot 2 months later and had a delay.

What do you consider regular primers? I've found standard #11 caps work fine with blackpowder, but to shoot a long string, say 30+ shots, you have to be more meticulous. I use nothing but CCI #11 magnum caps now, and it does help. If I didn't have such a store of #11 magnums, I might even consider musket caps, which are about as strong. You can get different adapters, the MagSpark is popular, and uses 209 shotgun primers. A shotgun 209 will not have any problem with any sub powder, although pellets do not work in a side lock.

It is disturbing that powder would go bad that fast or go bad at all. I still have ammo that I loaded 30 years ago. Fortunately is was loaded with smokeless.

The Firestick thing is less disturbing but I think it is silly.

Tim

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, that makes more sense. Yes, I too was surprised just how short 777 pellets last. To be clear, I have not had a problem with 777 powder with a tightly sealed powder can. BH209, modern smokeless, and real Blackpowder do not have this problem.

As for rifle primers, the best I can tell is they fall somewhere around the special muzzleloader only 209's. Weaker than a shotgun 209, but much stronger than a #11 cap too. If I were to try them with BH209, I would use magnums, but for all I know it will work with standards just fine. I suppose you could use 777 pellets in a cap and ball. 45 caliber pellets are harder to find than 50, but I know they exist. I've only ever used the 50's. I don't think they make a 54 caliber pellet. The cap and ball is an inline design, so it has a chance to put a flame where the pellets need it.

You can use 777 pellets in a sidelock, but you need to use a kicker charge of say 10 grains of real blackpowder to ignite them. This problem is compounded with patent breech plugs, as the pellets cannot get into the powder chamber of the breech plug. That's a LONG way for the relatively weak #11 cap to reach. Even with a full force 209 primer, pellets only work so-so in a side lock, they do not deliver the flame to the center of the pellet.

I've heard of people using BH209 in side locks. Western specifically says not to use it in sidelocks or plunger type guns. Anything that isn't a sealed ignition. The reason for this, is apparently BH209 holds it's pressure for longer in the barrel, and this puts more pressure to the primer. Being as a MagSpark is sealed, I don't see why it would be a huge deal. Some people have problems, same as 777 powder, but for the most part it sounds like BH209 works fine in a sidelock, provided you use a MagSpark or similar with a full power 209 primer like the Federal 209A.

[dtknowles]

Thanks

Tim