Down-loading .38 special

[Mr_Flintstone]

I really like plinking with .38 Long Colt loads in my .38 Specials. I can achieve the same loads in .38 Special cases using Trail Boss, but my supply is running low, and the local gun store hasn’t had it on the shelves for a while. After looking at the data on Hodgdon, I can achieve pretty much the same results in 158 gr cast with HP-38/231 as 150 grain Long Colt. My problem is with 125 gr cast bullets. I’m having trouble finding a load that will approach the slow 772 ft/s of the Long Colt.

I have Titegroup, 231, Autocomp, Bullseye, Unique, 2400, IMR-4227, and Win 296. I assume the 296 is a no-go, and probably 2400 and 4227. Can any of the other powders be down-loaded safely enough to achieve 125 gr Long Colt velocities until I can find some more Trail Boss?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

A starting load of Bullseye should do the trick.

[Mr_Flintstone]

Where did you find the Bullseye data? The current Alliant data doesn’t show Bullseye in 125 gr cast.

[Texas by God]

Use the starting load for the next heaviest bullet in the manual that does list Bullseye. Load one cartridge and test fire it first.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[dverna]

I have used 2.7-3.0 gr of 231 with 125-130 gr cast. It is not listed so use at your own risk. My "go to" load for CAS with the same bullets was 2.7 gr of Clays because I used Clays for 12 ga reloads. I have shot over 30k rounds with the 2.7 gr Clays load in both pistol and rifle and never had a stuck bullet.

There should be no ill effect using fast powders with charges below what is on the manufactures web sites.

[reddog81]

Unfortunately the current data on Alliant's website is sorely lacking. Whoever is in charge of their load data should be fired and replaced with someone who cares about shooting sports.

I have a digital version of the Lyman #48 and it shows 2.8 BE with a 120 grain cast bullet. Just pay attention to the target and make sure the bullet is leaving the barrel and you want run into any problems with that load. You can probably even drop down a few 1/10's without issue but you'd have to watch and make sure the bullet is making it out the barrel reliably.

[Outpost75]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) on p. 255 lists start load in .38 Special with #356242 (120 grains #2 alloy) at 1.45" OAL with 2.8 grains Bullseye for 690 fps at 8,600 cup.

[Larry Gibson]

Data is that chronographed by me and also is listed in Lyman #4 CBH. I use 3.2 gr Bullseye to push a 125 gr cast along at 750 - 775 fps in the 38 SPL from 5 and 6" barreled revolvers.

[Mr_Flintstone]

Thanks a bunch guys. It looks like Bullseye may be my go to powder for these until I can get some more Trail Boss.

[gwpercle]

After using Bullseye with lead boolits in your target loads ....you just might throw rocks at Trail Boss.

Any cast lead wadcutter from 140gr. to 160 gr. over 2.7 grains of Bullseye in 38 special will be quite accurate and pleasant to shoot .... It's magical !
Gary

[Mr_Flintstone]

Update... I just loaded some test loads with 2.8 gr Bullseye and 125 gr TCFP Hi-Tek bullets from Missouri Bullet Co, and shot them from my 4” Model 19. They were almost identical to my 38 LC loads, and at 30 ft they all hit within 1.5” from POA. The only downside is dirty cases and a little unburned powder after shooting. I’m thinking that the next time I may up it to 3.0 grains and see what happens.

[atr]

I have a very old COlt .38 DA which was my Grandfathers. I don't want to abuse the old revolver so for many years I have been shooting 125 cast with 3.0 gr of Bullseye, a very fun load.
atr

[reddog81]

Update... I just loaded some test loads with 2.8 gr Bullseye and 125 gr TCFP Hi-Tek bullets from Missouri Bullet Co, and shot them from my 4” Model 19. They were almost identical to my 38 LC loads, and at 30 ft they all hit within 1.5” from POA. The only downside is dirty cases and a little unburned powder after shooting. I’m thinking that the next time I may up it to 3.0 grains and see what happens.

Well that was quick!!! Any loads that light will be dirty. That's the price you pay for real light loads. I'd guess 3.0 will still be fairly dirty with a 125 grain bullet, but it really doesn't matter that much. The worst that can happen is that unburnt powder can get stuck under the extractor and cause problems. A little unburnt powder on your shooting bench won't hurt anything and dirty cases clean up easy enough.

[JoeJames]

Well that was quick!!! Any loads that light will be dirty. That's the price you pay for real light loads. I'd guess 3.0 will still be fairly dirty with a 125 grain bullet, but it really doesn't matter that much. The worst that can happen is that unburnt powder can get stuck under the extractor and cause problems. A little unburnt powder on your shooting bench won't hurt anything and dirty cases clean up easy enough.I have read many comments over the years that 3 grains of Bullseye under about any boolit is a good load. Under 148 grain Wad cutters I usually shoot 3.1 grains. I looked back at my notes, and with 158 grain SWC's I have found 3.8 grains is the most accurate. Here are my notes - shooting a S&W 4" Model 15, and a S&W Model 67 no dash:

Test of new Speer 158 grain 38 cal. lead swaged SWC’s

Old load of hard cast 160 grain swc’s, over 3.8 grains of Bullseye: 823, 833, 830, 820, 849, 820 = avg: 830 fps.

New load - Speer swaged swc’s over 3.8 grains of Bullseye, = Model 15 & Model 67: 763, 782, 773, 774, 760, 784, 783, 792, 791 = average 778 fps.

[dverna]

Put a good crimp on the bullet to increase pressure and get a better powder burn.

[Froogal]

I have given up finding the powder I want, when I want it, from any gun store. I buy it on line and have it delivered right to my door.

[jonp]

I run very light Red Dot/Promo loads with a 125gr cast in several of my pistols and they are pretty clean although my preferred target is a 148gr WC

[tazman]

Recently I ran some experiments with the Lee 125 RNFP using light loads of Bullseye and Titegroup. I used 2.8 of Bullseye and 2.9 of Titegroup.
Both loads gave excellent results and shot to the same POI as full charge 38 Special loads with 158 grain boolits did in several of my revolvers.
Good accuracy. Very little dirt with Titegroup. A great practice load.

[jsizemore]

My Universal powder slide is set for 3 grains of Bullseye which I've put behind 115,125,135 and 148 gr. cast bullets. They shoot great from a 1.875" bodyguard to a 6" target masterpiece.

[Mr_Flintstone]

Recently I ran some experiments with the Lee 125 RNFP using light loads of Bullseye and Titegroup. I used 2.8 of Bullseye and 2.9 of Titegroup.
Both loads gave excellent results and shot to the same POI as full charge 38 Special loads with 158 grain boolits did in several of my revolvers.
Good accuracy. Very little dirt with Titegroup. A great practice load.
I read somewhere once (don’t know if it was true or not) that Titegroup and Bullseye were virtually twins, and that light loads could be interchanged a lot of the time. I was always afraid to try though.

[tazman]

For a lot of cartridges, they do use the same grain weight. They definitely do not use the same measure settings though. Titegroup is much denser than Bullseye and takes up much less room in the case.
I like it for a lot of different cartridges that I load for.
That said, it is really hard to beat Bullseye in 38 special for most uses.

[David2011]

While I’ve used as little as 2.3 gr of Bullseye with 148 gr WCs that might be too little for your 125 gr boolits. At 2.7 gr it should kick like a .22 with great accuracy and buckets of fun.

[Mr_Flintstone]

Update #2: Today I loaded some 158 grain LRN bullets using the same 2.8 gr load of Bullseye, and all I can say is WOW. Not wow as in powerful, but wow as in accuracy. These we’re a little stouter than the 125 gr, but were exactly what I was looking for. Except for a couple flyers (that I take full responsibility for) I shot 23 of 25 shots into the 2” 9 ring of my target at 10 yards. I believe that when I up my 125’s to 3 grains, I’ll have a permanent replacement for both my Trail Boss loads.

[David2011]

He said, grinning from ear to ear. Glad you liked it. Powder puff .38 loads are some of the best fun I’ve ever had with firearms.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Update #2: Today I loaded some 158 grain LRN bullets using the same 2.8 gr load of Bullseye, and all I can say is WOW. Not wow as in powerful, but wow as in accuracy. These we’re a little stouter than the 125 gr, but were exactly what I was looking for. Except for a couple flyers (that I take full responsibility for) I shot 23 of 25 shots into the 2” 9 ring of my target at 10 yards. I believe that when I up my 125’s to 3 grains, I’ll have a permanent replacement for both my Trail Boss loads.

There is a reason they call it Bullseye!

[tazman]

Since you have some Titegroup on hand, load some of your boolits with a similar charge of Titegroup and give them a test. It is always nice to have a proven alternative available if needed.

[RogerDat]

I like titegroup but have also been impressed with bulls eye since I tried it. If I want dear wife to enjoy shooting then mild target loads are a requirement. Thing is I enjoy them also and zero chance of her accidentally getting a hotter load if the target loads are all mild.

If I want sound, fury, and fireball I can use .357 magnum rounds to achieve all of that one could want.

Since the OP mentioned shotgun I figure I should mention mild loads with Unique. I found I like the feel of titegroup out of a snubby better than Unique but it was entirely satisfactory and versatile.

Plus one on put together enough of an order that it makes the hazmat shipping charge less of an issue or order when there is a deal on Hazmat or shipping with orders over _________. Couple of boxes of primers, and a couple of 8# jugs make that hazmat fee work out to a little over a buck a pound so the online powder price is still a deal. I buy from local supply for a pound or two to replace some heavily used or to try something new but I buy "inventory" online so I can buy in bulk.

[mehavey]

See https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5834689&postcount=1

[tazman]

See https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5834689&postcount=1

Why stop with the 375. Get her a 460 Weatherby.

[iomskp]

I use 2.3 Grns of Bullseye with a 100 Grn semi wad cutter recessed 3mm below the lip of the 38 spc to reduce the air space, very accurate to 50 mtrs

[tazman]

I use 2.3 Grns of Bullseye with a 100 Grn semi wad cutter recessed 3mm below the lip of the 38 spc to reduce the air space, very accurate to 50 mtrs

Do you have a velocity for that load?

[AlaskaMike]

Sounds like you've already had some success with the light loads, so congrats. One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that with light loads you can raise the pressure a bit by seating the bullet deeper. You can do this either to clean up a light but dirty burning load, or to drop the powder charge a bit lower than the minimum charge listed in loading data.

If you have SWCs you can crimp over the front band, or with round noses you can crimp on the ogive.

Just be very careful doing this since it's unusual, and it tends to be uncharted territory. I would not recommend doing this if you're new to handloading. That said, I've done it many times for specific purposes and it works well.

[Mr_Flintstone]

I played around some more yesterday with light .38 Special Bullseye loads, and they were all excellent. I did run into somewhat of an issue when I tried to extrapolate up to .357 Magnum cases. After some figuring, I settled on a 3.0 gr starting load, and a small pistol primer. I topped them with 158 gr LRN that had a long seating depth, and gave them a moderately tight crimp. They shot ok, but had a 5” spread at 30 ft. I’m wondering now if the minuscule powder load in the .357 cases was the cause, or if I should have used a magnum primer?

[tazman]

I have never tried a combination like that in a magnum case. I figured it would be a recipe for inconsistency.
A magnum primer might help to get more consistent ignition.
Perhaps a switch to a less position sensitive powder since the case volume is so large.

[Mr_Flintstone]

Yeah, I’m thinking that Trail Boss would be better for .357 Magnum. Three grains of Bullseye looked almost nonexistent down in those long cases. It’s a long way to the powder if it’s all the way down in front.

[Racefiets]

I use 2.8 gr vectan BA10 with a lead 158gr RCBS SWC in .357 cases. Have been using this load for over 25 years now. Don’t uses plated bullets because they will not leave the barrel of a 6” revolver.

[jonp]

I use 2.8 gr vectan BA10 with a lead 158gr RCBS SWC in .357 cases. Have been using this load for over 25 years now. Don’t uses plated bullets because they will not leave the barrel of a 6” revolver.

I've used Vectan AO in several pistol rounds with very good results. Quite clean. Vectan is the best "secret" on this side of the Atlantic for performance and price.

[bgavin]

Lovex D032 (CleanShot) has a minimum load of 2.5 grains with LRN 125 grain in 38 Special.
629 FPS, 9749 PSI, BHN=7.6

This is the Shooter's World PDF, pp 31

[David2011]

Do you have a velocity for that load?

I’ve shot a ton of that load with 148 gr WCs. No velocity but if the sun is behind you then you can watch them go down range. SWAG is 650 FPS based on another load that I know is 645-650 FPS.