Muzzleloading hunting has officially gone too far!

[megasupermagnum]

I was never one to look down on those who use inline ignition muzzleloaders. I own them, and use them. I can fully understand why some want to keep it more historically accurate, but that opens a whole can of worms. I always said, as long as it loads from the muzzle, it is a muzzle loader. While some of the new wizz bang products out there can expedite the learning curve, inline rifles still face many of the same challenges as any side lock. I always felt pelletized powder is nipping on the edge of what is proper, but I let people do their own thing, plus pelletized powder is inferior in every way except convenience.

Today I found a new product from Federal, called FireStick. https://www.federalpremium.com/firestick.html

I read it, and immediately felt sick to my stomach. That is blatantly a breech loading cartridge. I'll be writing the MN DNR for sure. While it may not seem like much to the hardcore traditionalists, I like to keep muzzleloader equipment up to the individual. But this insults that openness. I'll recommend that the definition be changed such that it reads "a muzzleloader is a firearm that powder and projectile are loaded by hand from the muzzle".

Currently the MN regulations read "The muzzleloader (long gun or handgun) used cannot be loaded at the breech (muzzleloading revolvers are not legal for taking big game). So this new cartridge may not even be legal here to begin with, which is a relief.

[trails4u]

Yeah..... I hate it.

[NSB]

I can only say I agree with you 100%. I can't even think of anything to add. This doesn't say much about the company offering it. I'll pass on anything they sell at this point.

[LAGS]

Wow.
Now who came up with that , and can call that a muzzle loader.
That ain't much different than taking a 45/70 , loading the casing Full of black powder , then shoving a projectile down the barrel.

[M-Tecs]

It's the slippery slope that was created from going from a primitive season to a muzzle loading season. Same thing with crossbows.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hey Guys,

I'm kind of a Traditionalist myself, even though I shoot a Sabot in a 1:32 twist barrel.
Here in Minnesota, one must load through the muzzle with Black Powder or a Substitute Black Powder (not smokeless).
It is a Muzzleloader season, not a Primitive Weapon season here, even though some wish it was.
We can use a scope (with failing eyes would be a plus), Inline, Under Hammer or Side Lock.
A Sharps Percussion is not legal (as it loads from breach), nor would the above linked rifle.
However, both mentioned rifles would be perfectly legal for the Regular Firearm Season, so they're not just sitting in the closet.

AntiqueSledMan.

[dave951]

In my state, any gun that does not use fixed ammunition is legal now. That opens the door to Sharps, Smith, Starr, Gallahger, and that new train wreck. I'm ok hunting with a Sharps etc, as they are black powder and your average yayhoo won't even know what they are but that new thing is just wrong. I asked our DNR what was up with that and the response I got was that the deer harvest wasn't as high as they would like due to lack of hunters in the woods. They still have a fairly large number of licenses issued, but folks actually going into the woods, not as much as in the past.

[charlie b]

If you want your state to do something then just petition for things like a flintlock season, iron sights only. Sidelock only. Black powder only (no subs). Plenty of ways to do this if your state is interested. But, like mentioned above, some areas it is difficult to get people to actually harvest enough animals, regardless of how many tags are issues.

I stopped hunting years ago just because of how crowded it was even during muzzle loader season.

[idahoron]

It is illegal in Idaho from the start.

[CastingFool]

I don't hunt much with a ML, simply, I hate to clean them. So I have no use whatsoever for the Firestick thing, that you have to purchase and use proprietary rifle and shells. My 12 ga and Henry rifle do a good job for me. BTW, in MI this past ML season, you were allowed to use any firearm that was legal for deer hunting.

[kens]

It's the slippery slope that was created from going from a primitive season to a muzzle loading season. Same thing with crossbows.

yup, +1
besides, the inlines as they are with sabots, powerbelts, pellet powder, primers, they are already equal to 45-70.
May was well call it a single shot 45-70.
why need that?

[Hickok]

Kinda' like the paper cartridge I use in my Sharps .52/.54 caliber Berdan.

255727

[dverna]

There are states that need to increase the deer harvest so I see things changing. Fewer people are hunting and the fear of CWD and TB has caused some states to ban baiting, further reducing the number of deer taken.

If it is legal, why the angst? I do not like seeing ARs during rifle season but that is my problem. BTW, I have ARs and choose not to use them on deer...it is a personal thing. My choice does not make me "better" just more traditional.

Does this offer an unfair advantage? Excuse what may be an obvious question, but I do not ML.

[DougGuy]

If it dropped down the bore from the muzzle, and then you loaded a 209 primer from the breech plug I think it would be much better received overall.

I can see the advantage of a consistent load increasing accuracy, my White inline really perked up when I started using pyrodex pellets as opposed to loose powder. I am not a traditional ML kinda guy, I just used the inline to harvest an early deer and for that, the improvement in accuracy worked well.

[BigAlofPa.]

We have a muzzleloader season in the fall. And then a flintlock season in the winter. Must be a flinter. No percussion and no scopes.

[Markopolo]

I personally, am way more interested in this "triple 8" powder??? what the heck is that?? a nitro smokeless powder?? a BP sub??? available?? gunna be? not gunna be?? what the heck is triple 8 powder?

who cares about the new traditions system or federal cartridge packs... talk to me about the trip 8....

marko

[Tatume]

Hunting is an individual experience to me. If someone wishes to use a gun that is different from mine, I don't care. We have plenty of deer here in Virginia. To each his own.

However, before responding to this thread, I looked up the Virginia regulation, and I'm glad I did. Lots of guns I thought were legal are not.

"Muzzleloader" means any firearm described in subdivision 3 of the definition of antique firearm in § 18.2-308.2:2.
Any muzzle-loading rifle, muzzle-loading shotgun, or muzzle-loading pistol that is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and that cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subdivision, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon that incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm that is converted into a muzzle-loading weapon, or any muzzle-loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breech-block, or any combination thereof.

[scattershot]

No way is that thing a muzzleloader.

[country gent]

Some early history on the cartridge guns and muaale loader transition from them. The early matches that were shot with he sharps, rolling blocks hepburns ect. The rifle had a primed case inserted some had powder some the [owder was poured in the muzzle, then a bullet seated from the muzzle. SOme of these shooters had a length of the barrel and even pushed bullets thru it to pre engrave them.

I agree that most primitive muzzle loader seasons have drifted far from what was intended with the modern rifles. The inlines are no longer a vented system like the cap locks and flinters were. With the sabot bullets modern powders and pellets. But to each their own.

I have thought states could should hace 2 seasons one muzzle loader, Ie the moderns and non traditional s and a primitive where the traditional s are allowed only. In this way the modern hunters with sabots pellets and sealed breeches have their time. The tradiotonalistwith Patched ball or bullet loose powder and horn or measure vented system, and such have theirs. In Ohio the longest deer season foes to archery, with cross bows and the modern compound they are much more effective also. A early season maybe a few eeks before firearms season for the traditional season would be great

[FergusonTO35]

It's not something that I would be interested in, but If it means that more people go hunting I'm all for it. Our state's herd needs SERIOUS thinning in many counties and, honestly, an additional modern gun season is the only way they are going to accomplish that. Reason is, being able to use a breech loader for deer before the weather gets bitterly cold is the only thing that is going to get more casual hunters who don't do archery into the woods. Not to mention the fact that many people simply cannot spend much time hunting during our rifle season which happens right before Thanksgiving and when businesses are gearing up for Christmas. Personally, I would like to see an additional nine day modern gun season in early October.

[Marinekayak]

So I don't live in CT anymore but the first rifle in this is being sold by Traditions a CT based company. CT deer regulations state "During Muzzleloader Deer Seasons, a muzzleloader means a rifle or shotgun, .45 caliber minimum, incapable of firing a self-contained cartridge, using powder and a single projectile loaded separately at the muzzle end" so my read is that its not legal in CT.....Seems like an issue. I am more of a traditionalist but do own and hunt with an inline. Im not 100% opposed but not supporting this either, if you can hunt with this you should be able to hunt with a sharps or other BP non muzzleloaders.

[M-Tecs]

Hey Guys,

I'm kind of a Traditionalist myself, even though I shoot a Sabot in a 1:32 twist barrel.
Here in Minnesota, one must load through the muzzle with Black Powder or a Substitute Black Powder (not smokeless).
It is a Muzzleloader season, not a Primitive Weapon season here, even though some wish it was.
We can use a scope (with failing eyes would be a plus), Inline, Under Hammer or Side Lock.
A Sharps Percussion is not legal (as it loads from breach), nor would the above linked rifle.
However, both mentioned rifles would be perfectly legal for the Regular Firearm Season, so they're not just sitting in the closet.

AntiqueSledMan.

Smokeless is legal for muzzleloaders in MN. Page 60. https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/hunting/full_regs.pdf#view=fit&page=62

Since this design loads the bullet from the front I a case can be made this will be legal in MN.

[GregLaROCHE]

It’s just someone trying to get around regulations to make a buck. I’ve never understood how shooting a 12ga slug out of a rifled barrel is not shooting more than .50cal.

[mattw]

Wow, cheating! I could not even get approved to use a paper cartridge black powder rifle in Illinois. So, never fired the rifle, never learned to make rounds for it...

[sharps4590]

The nose of the camel got under the tent in the late 70's. They almost have the whole critter in the tent now. Missouri doesn't even make an attempt at muzzleloading or primitive season anymore. It's now "Alternative Season" and is a total, complete sham. You can use a Contender in 30-30, a revolver or one of those "AK Pistols" and all kinds of crap. But you can't use a Sharps loaded with black powder and cast bullets. We have complete idiots at MDC when it comes to an understanding of firearms and ballistics. The guys who busted their buns and spent their time and money to get a muzzleloading season here are turning over in their graves. 'Course, it's MDC, what do I expect?

As far as that Federal abortion, count me out but, I bet it's legal here and if it isn't, it will be.

[nicholst55]

If the sole concerns of the state are 1) increasing the deer harvest and/or 2) selling more hunting licenses and generating more revenue, then if the Firestick is not currently legal where you live, it probably will be before long.

I feel that a dedicated 'muzzleloader' season should be limited to more traditional style rifles, but that's just my personal opinion. If someone wants to use a more modern style rifle, they can use it in the normal firearms season. I prefer to hunt with a flintlock, although I do sometimes 'go modern' and use a caplock rifle.

I agree that the Firestick system should use a fixed powder charge that loads from the muzzle and utilizes a breech-seated primer IF it's going to be considered a muzzleloader. As currently designed, I don't think it's really significantly different than a breech loading rifle.

[indian joe]

The nose of the camel got under the tent in the late 70's. They almost have the whole critter in the tent now. Missouri doesn't even make an attempt at muzzleloading or primitive season anymore. It's now "Alternative Season" and is a total, complete sham. You can use a Contender in 30-30, a revolver or one of those "AK Pistols" and all kinds of crap. But you can't use a Sharps loaded with black powder and cast bullets. We have complete idiots at MDC when it comes to an understanding of firearms and ballistics. The guys who busted their buns and spent their time and money to get a muzzleloading season here are turning over in their graves. 'Course, it's MDC, what do I expect?

As far as that Federal abortion, count me out but, I bet it's legal here and if it isn't, it will be.

my read of this - hard work won a muzzleloader season intended for traditional style, front loaded, open ignition guns - bolt action, scope sighted, BS muzzle loaders were invented solely to cheat the system - at the start nobody with a traditional ML background was interested but over time some traditionalists weakened and went inline - simply a cant beat em lets join em stance -
I can kinda see the logic of not letting a feller with a sharps loose in eastern country where he could lob shot an innocent bystander three farms away but then you got blokes with inlines shooting copper jacket pointy bullets out of sabots - how much more safe is that. This ship will not right itself until the whole deal comes back to basics ie - muzzle loading charge and boolit, traditional open rear ignition - percussion cap or flintlock - not hard to draw the line and not hard to police it.

[SSGOldfart]

Fire stick looks like a plastic black powder cartridge to me. not a muzzleloader.....

[Geezer in NH]

That is not a muzzleloader. Get you arrested in NH

[rfd]

Wow.
Now who came up with that , and can call that a muzzle loader.
That ain't much different than taking a 45/70 , loading the casing Full of black powder , then shoving a projectile down the barrel.

yep, that's "breech seating" and that's what the 'firestick' isfor sure; a breech loader. NOT a muzzeloader.

this is like saying an "airbow" is a crossbow. NOT a crossbow.

[Jniedbalski]

I live in south east Missouri. The game warden said there is a huge drop of people going hunting. Not many kids going and adults staying home. My son got a doe the first day of alternate or black powder season. He could not go regular season because he is in the marines . He got a 10 day leave and it worked out perfect. He said he got out of the truck walked 25 yards went up to the fence and three doe’s where standing out in the field 20 yards away. The game warden came to the house to check it out. He did the telacheck thing on his phone before he came home. The game warden said he was the first one to shoot a deer during alternate season. He also said the deer kill is down 30to 40 % in the area and less and less people are going mostly young kids and young adults. I don’t really care what people use as long as they get out and enjoy hunting. My son used my stainless inline 50 cal. He could of used my side lock or a pistole. He got home and said that. His hunt kind of sucked and it’s over with. He was out a total of 5 minutes hunting and wanted to stay out all weekend. I remember all the talk of regular bows and recurve and compound bows and how they wanted a season for each . I really don’t care what the person over the next holler is using just go out and have fun.

[rfd]

Jniedbalski - all signs signs of the quickly changing times in America. and yet, to our young'uns, these are their good ol' days. i wish they could experience my good ol' days, but i'm a'feared those days are gone forever ...

[megasupermagnum]

If you are in a season where cartridges are allowed, then I don't see what difference it makes. Nobody would choose this over a good 45-70 anyway. If you have an honest muzzleloader season, then a breech loader is just wrong. I am a supporter of inline rifles. All they are is a better design for manufacturing. Traditional muzzleloaders were built by hand. That work is very expensive now. Not everybody can afford a fancy rifle, and I would hate to have to force someone into a cheap Lyman or Traditions, or whatever, just because some feel that a muzzleloader should be a flintlock only. Pellet powder and plastic sabot's are pushing it, but I always just let people do their thing. Maybe they will get into muzzleloading, or maybe not. But the FireStick breech loader, that's not a muzzleloader. That is just an insult, a way around regulations. It's not comparable to a rifled barrel shotgun, it's still a shotgun. You know what this is like? The TC Encore and the 308, 7mm waters, 243 etc. "handguns" being allowed in the shotgun zones.

In the end, it's going to be the sucker who buys one of these proprietary guns who will lose. After all, as other have said, it doesn't hurt me at all. I'm still just as free to use most gun as I please, and I prefer that to the western state style regulations.

[10 ga]

It's a very old technology. Used in the early Schutzen type rifles. Muzzleloader, not really.

But hey, the supreme court changed the definition of marriage.
Next the court will change the definition of abortion to include infanticide of kids up to 2 years old like is getting ready to happen in Europe and Asia. They'll do what in the H they want.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/book-reviewschuetzen-rifles-history-and-loadings/

Safety 1st, then accuracy. 10ga

[M-Tecs]

Similar but different. The false muzzle loading centerfire rifles addressed some of the accuracy issues from breech loading. They could be loaded from the muzzle or the breech. The FireStick rifles can not load the bullet from the breech.

[Dimner]

There are states that need to increase the deer harvest so I see things changing. Fewer people are hunting and the fear of CWD and TB has caused some states to ban baiting, further reducing the number of deer taken.

If it is legal, why the angst? I do not like seeing ARs during rifle season but that is my problem. BTW, I have ARs and choose not to use them on deer...it is a personal thing. My choice does not make me "better" just more traditional.

Does this offer an unfair advantage? Excuse what may be an obvious question, but I do not ML.

I'll answer the first question, with my opinion of course, and I also live in Michigan.

The angst on my part goes back to the intention of muzzloader season. There were a few reasons if I recall when ML came around. 1) season that allowed us 1970s buck skinner type fellows to hunt 2) Increased hunter participation and deer harvest 3) Continued the deer harvest (lower the #'s in the herd) with lower pressure on the deer. Possibly 4) DNR got more tag money.

The 3rd one is why ML starts after a 1 week break from Gun season.

I hate inlines. I think they should be made illegal in muzzle loader season. OR Our state should just make all firearms legal during what is now called muzzleloader season. When the inlines came around, and now the firesticks, it really makes no sense why I cannot use a 30-30. These inlines and the firestick things only benefit the gun and ammo companies. Hunters are paying to get around a law/DNR rule that was written before these were invented. Every sane hunter would never buy an inline and just use a normal rifle if it were legal.

So my 2 cents is keep it the seasons traditional or just open it all up.

[Hick]

Amazing-- someone just invented the cartridge! Next thing you know someone will come up with the brilliant idea of putting a bullet in it too.

[megasupermagnum]

You hit it on #3 why I don't want it to turn into a "primitive" season. Most guys still struggle with inline rifles, especially those who are accustomed to centerfire rifles. They are still muzzleloaders, you dump down the powder, ram a ball or bullet down, and prime. Even the best substitutes foul the bore, 777 pellets I find even worse than Goex. It still takes the work to find an accurate load, and keep your rifle reliable. I found percussion guns not one bit more difficult than my inlines, just a touch different. Flintlocks are a whole other deal, as you have to adjust your "primer" with many variables. I find #11 caps every bit as good as 209 primers. Every year I see someone fighting with a brand new rifle, either can't load it or, can't hit squat. Even the short learning cure is a learning curve. This new breech loader takes all but the fouling out of play. It's just a slow cartridge gun.


Now here is the biggest problem I have had with Minnesota's muzzleloader season, it's plain too short. Ours also has a one week break before it starts, but that does not help things. The deer do not normalize until a month after regular firearms. It has been this way for as long as I can remember. Our season is only 15 days long. Every single adult buck I have ever shot during muzzleloader season has been during the last few days. Usually I can only hunt weekends. You can kill deer during the first two weeks, but it is a real feat to kill a full grown buck. This year was no exception, besides me never getting a shot at a buck. Deer wouldn't come out until 45 minutes after dark, and I couldn't even find tracks of the buck I had been hunting up to that point. The very last day I finally got him on camera, but never got in front of him with the rifle. Bow hunting ends on December 31st. It makes no sense that muzzleloading doesn't end on the same day. It's not like everyone is out there pushing deer. It's rare I see other hunters in December. This year I didn't even hear a shot.

Anyway, sorry about that last bit. I don't want more restricting, but I want to draw the line right here. Muzzleloaders are loaded from the muzzle period.

[megasupermagnum]

Amazing-- someone just invented the cartridge! Next thing you know someone will come up with the brilliant idea of putting a bullet in it too.

One of the first thought's I had were that someone would offer a loaded cartridge conversion where they cut out the bullet stop in the bore. Since the gun is "designed to be loaded from the muzzle" it would get around the regulations farther. At least be creative Federal! If they had come out with some kind of overpriced one-piece cartridge that you stuff down the bore, I never would have said a thing. And it may have even been useful. Instead they blatantly make a cartridge gun and call it a muzzleloader.

[M-Tecs]

Wow this is getting pretty far fetched. The laws change yearly in the various states so no hard and fast statements. I am not aware of any states the allow 1859/1863 Sharps breechloader percussion as muzzloaders since the bullet loads from the breech.

The manufactures are just responding to the needs of the market. The market (in the case of hunting muzzleloaders) is determined by the individual State's Legislation.

The reality is other than a few traditional types muzzleloaders are just a required tool for an additional season. Given a choice they would they would use the most modern designs allowed by the regulations.

I would prefer period correct muzzleloaders only with the addition of optics for the older or poor vision folks. No inlines period, that being said I own and build smokeless muzzleloaders. A legal firearm is a legal firearm.

If we don't do that the next best would be to do what some states have done with the period correct cartridge's guns using straight wall cases. I would love to be able to hunt in an addition season with my original Winchester 1873, various Trapdoor Springfield's or my original 32/40 Winchester 1885.

While not common I have seen this design going back to the mid-90's. Only difference was they used 444 Marlin brass.

[725]

While I think the rifle is ridiculous, I don't care what others use. If somebody likes it, who cares? If it gets more people shooting and into the hunting woods, it's a good thing. I prefer sidelocks, but do you really care what I like? Without being too much of a "get off my lawn" guy, it's none your business. Live & let live.

[hylander]

Lame, that is not muzzle loading.
You are not loading the powder from the muzzle.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hey Guys,

I stand corrected, Smokeless Powder is again legal in a muzzleloader here in Minnesota. It was banned in 2006 (I remember reading this), and I guess repealed in 2007 (I don't recall). As far as this rifle being legal, all laws are interpreted by the individual and I can see a ticket from a Conservation Officer for said rifle as the charge is loaded from the breech. It would be the same as breech seating a cartridge rifle if you loaded the projectile from the muzzle.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Tatume]

Every sane hunter would never buy an inline and just use a normal rifle if it were legal.

Not true. I hunt with a muzzleloader during the regular firearms season, and not just because I want to (which I do). Virginia has a hodgepodge of hunting regulations, county by county and some cities. A hunter can park his car where it's legal to hunt with a 30-30 and walk to his stand, and be in a location where it is not legal. But everywhere it is legal to hunt with a gun, any kind of gun, it is legal to hunt with a muzzleloader.

Now add to that that my muzzleloaders are just as accurate, just as effective, and just as much fun, and you may understand why I don't hunt with centerfire rifles in my home state.

That doesn't prove I'm sane, but you be the judge.

[Slugster]

I still use my .54 cal St. Louis Hawken that I assembled from a CVA kit 40 years ago. Dead accurate with the T/C Maxi ball. Have seen no reason to change to one of the new in-lines. It never fails, always accurate, and has accounted for more deer than I have fingers and toes. This new Federal idea (idea is actually well over 100 years old) is rather off-putting.
This is all probably the result of the manufacturer trying to appeal to the NEW HUNTER (not overly bright, and more interested in their phone and gadgetry than actually hunting) who is infesting the woods these days.

[Dimner]

Not true. I hunt with a muzzleloader during the regular firearms season, and not just because I want to (which I do). Virginia has a hodgepodge of hunting regulations, county by county and some cities. A hunter can park his car where it's legal to hunt with a 30-30 and walk to his stand, and be in a location where it is not legal. But everywhere it is legal to hunt with a gun, any kind of gun, it is legal to hunt with a muzzleloader.

Now add to that that my muzzleloaders are just as accurate, just as effective, and just as much fun, and you may understand why I don't hunt with centerfire rifles in my home state.

That doesn't prove I'm sane, but you be the judge.
You are sane. Because, the quote you posted had "if it were legal".

I'm guessing you would pick a centerfire rifle of sufficient caliber if there wasn't all this nonsense in the laws.


I see it this way. Let's say there was a state where any sufficent centerfire caliber was legal in any deer season.

If a feller wanted to forgo the option of modern rifle cartridges and go muzzleloader, how many would pick an inline?

My guess is that people use in lines because they are not permitted to use their centerfire rifles.

[hpdrifter]

I think they went too far many years ago.

Allowing scopes on muzzleloaders was it. I could live with inlines, to an extent. Heck of a lot easier to clean.

Compounds in archery season seemed ok, but I knew where it would lead. Now we have crossbows, drawlocks, even live rounds attached to arrows.

To me, the whole idea of archery and muzzle loader season is to step away from modern contrivances.

I know I am not the one writing the laws and it's a good thing for many.

[FergusonTO35]

Jniedbalski - all signs signs of the quickly changing times in America. and yet, to our young'uns, these are their good ol' days. i wish they could experience my good ol' days, but i'm a'feared those days are gone forever ...

When it comes to deer and turkey hunting here in my state, these are in fact the good old days. When my dad was a kid in the 1950's, if you wanted to hunt either one and have a realistic chance of success you had to travel a couple states away. When I was a kid in the 1980's I spent lots of time in the woods of Scott County and rarely saw any deer, never saw any turkey. On the odd chance that a neighbor got one, there would be a stream of cars in and out of their driveway of people coming to look at it.

[Good Cheer]

Wow.
Now who came up with that , and can call that a muzzle loader.
That ain't much different than taking a 45/70 , loading the casing Full of black powder , then shoving a projectile down the barrel.

Or with a 45 Colt single shot rifle.

[Tripplebeards]

It’s not legal in Wisconsin either it’s got to be loaded from the barrel. I have an old-school muzzleloader that you have to unscrew the breach so it’s faster just to load it from the front!

If that goofy set up was legal you might as well just start using H&R single shots for muzzleloader season with modern cartridges because in my opinion it would be the same thing.

[varsity07840]

In my state, any gun that does not use fixed ammunition is legal now. That opens the door to Sharps, Smith, Starr, Gallahger, and that new train wreck. I'm ok hunting with a Sharps etc, as they are black powder and your average yayhoo won't even know what they are but that new thing is just wrong. I asked our DNR what was up with that and the response I got was that the deer harvest wasn't as high as they would like due to lack of hunters in the woods. They still have a fairly large number of licenses issued, but folks actually going into the woods, not as much as in the past.
I live in western NC and planned on using my Gallagher this year. But given the fact that I have to hunt public land which means a lot of hunters and fewer deer, I changed my mind. My alternative was going back up to New Jersey with my full stock flint Hawken but I realized that I really don't want shoot a deer anymore. So at 69, I retired. Paper is catching hell though.

[Tatume]

You are sane. Because, the quote you posted had "if it were legal". I'm guessing you would pick a centerfire rifle of sufficient caliber if there wasn't all this nonsense in the laws.

Not true. I hunt with a muzzleloader because I want to, that that is exactly what I said. I added further support for doing it, buy I would not use a centerfire rifle, period. I like hunting with my British rifles.

[Dimner]

Not true. I hunt with a muzzleloader because I want to, that that is exactly what I said. I added further support for doing it, buy I would not use a centerfire rifle, period. I like hunting with my British rifles.


Okay understood. But in this hypothetical situation where laws are not an issue, would you use an inline or sidelock?

[rfd]

the issue of this thread is, what is the definition of a "muzzleloader". common sense would indicate the answer is clearly in the name. if powder and projectile are breech chambered instead of muzzle chambered, i don't see how said firearm could be deemed "muzzleloader". as such, how could such a breech seated firearm fit it use within the description of a "muzzleloading hunting season"? beats me, but in this politically whacked out new millennium, lotsa whackos are attempting to fit square pegs into round holes of equal dimensions.

then there's the issue of where and when weapons called "muzzleloaders" should be used for hunting is a can of worms in too many counties and states, for too many reasons, including blending firearms with archery (then there's the issue of what's considered "archery"). oh what fun. not.

[Bazoo]

Well, while I like traditional muzzleloaders over inlines, it doesn't bother me. I'm not sure if it'd be legal here but I think so. Personally I think the mz season is a joke. Folks here all use inlines as a way to extend modern gun. Modern gun is just 2 weeks, and then mz is like 10 days 3 weeks later. But if they would let modern gun go for a month or maybe 6 weeks it'd take a lot of pressure off the deer during that 2 week period everyone is frantic.

To make it worse, my county has been unlimited does for 3 years now. Folks killing all they can and donating the meat. That puts a lot of undue pressure on the deer and makes it harder for small farm hunters like me.

[Tatume]

Okay understood. But in this hypothetical situation where laws are not an issue, would you use an inline or sidelock?

I use a sidelock percussion British stalking rifle, a Parker-Hale Volunteer, and a flintlock British sporting rifle. All three are deadly at any range I would choose to shoot a deer with any rifle.

[Tatume]

I hasten to add, anybody can use any rifle they want, and I don't care. This is not a social event for me. What they do is their business, and I'll never know, so why should I care. Peace and solitude are among the reasons I hunt.

[Fly]

I must omit I,m a traditional muzzle loader guy. I,m not crazy about people hunting in the tradition muzzle loader season with the new rifles & such.
I don't bash them ever for it is the law & I can't controll that. But stuff like this tells me the people making laws, just want
the money generated by deer stamps.

Fly

[rfd]

I must omit I,m a traditional muzzle loader guy. I,m not crazy about people hunting in the tradition muzzle loader season with the new rifles & such.
I don't bash them ever for it is the law & I can't controll that. But stuff like this tells me the people making laws, just want
the money generated by deer stamps.

Fly

as always, it's about political power - control and money. politicians have always known that without constituent scrutiny they can literally get away with murder. so the real problem becomes we, the people. look around and see the current state of the average, apathetic, ignorant American, happily giving away their liberty, their freedoms, to the nefarious politicos who promise bread and circuses in return ... allowing hunting across our lands to devolve into a near nightmare of rules and regulations, where at least some are downright devoid of any manner of common sense. welcome to the new USA.

[bob208]

the reason I don't like inlines and what has fallowed. they are going to lead muzzleloaders into the same regulations as center fire guns.

[dverna]

Dimner,
You are more right than wrong. None of the people I know who ML would have one if they could hunt during ML season with a modern rifle. None use a ML during rifle season. Same with bows. None of the people I know would want to hunt with a bow if a rifle could be used.

This is in the ML forum and you are getting a subset of hunters. Factor in that these guys want to have a season of their own to justify the investments they have and make them "special". They like the fact there are fewer hunters out there to deal with and are not interested in growing the number of participants.

States have different priorities. Harvesting is down, number of tags is down, herds are up. They face deer management issues as well economic issues. Most ML'ers will resist any changes that affect their interests and some are concerned about the "purity" of the sport.

All hunters are not ML'ers so the states have little choice if they want to address their concerns.

In some states, we have the new straight wall cartridge rules to allow rifles where only shotguns were legal. They did that for a reason.

In MI, there was (is?) a bill to start rifle season 10 days earlier. Some support it, the traditionalists do not.

ML'ers will not be immune to changes either. Follow the money.

[bishopgrandpa]

I can see how this offends the traditionalist but the ML season gives me two extra weeks to hunt. I don't wear a coonskin hat nor do I care what brings the meat to the table. If this helps me have a better chance to bring home a deer w/o having the "traditional" mess of a clean up, Why not?

[rockrat]

Been awhile since I muzzleloader hunted in CO, for that, awhile since I hunted. IIRC though, no pellets, no smokeless, no scopes, no sabots. For a long time, I could only hunt with my TC Hawken, but after many a year and enough pressure, in-lines were legalized.

[megasupermagnum]

I can see how this offends the traditionalist but the ML season gives me two extra weeks to hunt. I don't wear a coonskin hat nor do I care what brings the meat to the table. If this helps me have a better chance to bring home a deer w/o having the "traditional" mess of a clean up, Why not?

If all you are after is meat, why not bow hunt? Here we have a 3 1/2 month long bow season. Many states you can use a crossbow, which is even easier to master than a muzzleloader.

[rfd]

If all you are after is meat, why not bow hunt? Here we have a 3 1/2 month long bow season. Many states you can use a crossbow, which is even easier to master than a muzzleloader.

"hunting seasons". this is where some states/counties/towns have decided that a crossbow OR airbow is the same thing as a REAL archery bow. the stupidity continues as long as dollar$ are collected by those making the rules.

[MrHarmless]

If the projectile is loaded from the muzzle, it's a muzzle loader.

If the projectile is loaded from the breech, it's a breech loader.

Unfortunately it flirts with the limits of your preferences.

[dtknowles]

Wow this is getting pretty far fetched. The laws change yearly in the various states so no hard and fast statements. I am not aware of any states the allow 1859/1863 Sharps breechloader percussion as muzzloaders since the bullet loads from the breech.,,,,,,,.

It would be legal in Mississippi and Louisiana during "Primitive" season. "including primitive firearms known as in line primitive firearms, and Single shot, breech loading rifles, .35 caliber or larger, having an exposed hammer that use metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes." We don't have a "muzzleloader" season anymore. Well, maybe the Sharps would not be allowed because it does not have a metallic cartridge. I doubt any warden would bust you or even look close enough to see you were using a breach loaded paper cartridge.

Tim

[cas]

If states need to increase the harvest, increase bag limits and make seasons longer.

I've never been a fan of inlines. I've never seen the point of pretending you're muzzle loading.
If you're going to shoot a modern muzzle loader, why not just buy a Handy Rifle or ruger No.1 in say 45-70. Put the empty primed case in the gun, pour a charge of IMR 4198 down the barrel so you're following the rules , followed by a cast bullet. "Whoopie, I'm a muzzle loader!"

[Longknife]

Well that is NOT muzzle-loading hunting AT ALL! Its just a gimmic to get around all law and make it easier for Non traditional type hunters to get another tag!!!!!!!

[flint45]

I don't care for it.

[Good Cheer]

If states need to increase the harvest, increase bag limits and make seasons longer.

I've never been a fan of inlines. I've never seen the point of pretending you're muzzle loading.
If you're going to shoot a modern muzzle loader, why not just buy a Handy Rifle or ruger No.1 in say 45-70. Put the empty primed case in the gun, pour a charge of IMR 4198 down the barrel so you're following the rules , followed by a cast bullet. "Whoopie, I'm a muzzle loader!"

Been wanting to try that sort of thing with a 45ACP bolt action for quite some time!

[PapaG]

Harry Pope and others made "breech muzzle loaders" for match shooting. Bullet was loaded from the muzzle using a false muzzle, paper patch, starter and rammed down, then a cartridge was placed in the chamber. All precise for match shooting. I had one. That said, this thing is an abortion and an affront to those of us who believe primitive seasons should stay true to the original intent. Bleach powder, lead ball or slug, cap or flint. Anything else goes in modern season.

[M-Tecs]

Harry Pope and others made "breech muzzle loaders" for match shooting. Bullet was loaded from the muzzle using a false muzzle, paper patch, starter and rammed down, then a cartridge was placed in the chamber. All precise for match shooting. I had one.

I am more familiar with Schuetzen rifles. Most of these rifles used grease groove bullets and a false muzzle. It's my understanding that the bigger slug guns used paper patched bullets and false muzzle. These bullets had the paper applied as the bullet is pushed down into the false muzzle. I have read about this system but i have never seen one in use.

The load used by CW Rowland/Pope to shoot his record setting group on May 16, 1901 appeared in an interview with Outdoor Life magazine in October, 1902. It was a duplex load of 3grs DuPont No.1 smokeless and 47grs of Fg Hazard black powder. Powders were dropped into the case using a Pope duplex measure. A Leopold Oelo wad was pressed in the case mouth. His bullets were cast 1:10 (tin:lead) using Leopold's No.6 bullet lubricant. Roland’s Pope-Ballard rifle had a scope and the group was fired from a Pope machine rest. The only notes about range conditions that day were “Light rain” and “No Wind”.

Did your rifle use traditional wrapped paper patched bullet or did it apply the paper in the false muzzle? I am tying figure out how many system they used. I know of two types shown below. Did your's use one of these or something different.

https://www.dedinski.com/verkauf/gewehre_en/underhammer/whitworth/billinghurst-rifle_cross_patch.html

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/blackpowder-slug-guns-the-mitchell-gun/

[rfd]

what is so hard for some folks to understand? if the gun's breech is not intended to be easily opened, and therefore the powder and projectile must go down the tube from the muzzle end, then it's a muzzle loading firearm. this is the only type of long gun that should be allowed during "muzzleloader (or 'primitive') season". anything else ain't.

[Earlwb]

Wow those firesticks are expensive, $25.00 for ten of them. Plus you still need bullets and 209 primers too. Worse is you can't reload them either. I don't see this as getting much out of the gate, so to speak. Too costly.
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/federal-fire-stick-muzzleloader-cartridges-triple-8-powder.html

About its only advantage is for cold, wet, rainy days maybe. You'd be less likely to have a misfire then.

But heck I use paper cartridges that are waxed in my muzzle loader. Those are more or less waterproof to some extent. You cut off the end, pour in the powder, and ram the rest down the barrel. Then prime the pan or stick on a cap and you are ready to go. Those are a lot cheaper than these firesticks.

[rfd]

flintlocks in the rain aren't a big deal and will be reliable if you understand how to handle them.

[megasupermagnum]

Wow those firesticks are expensive, $25.00 for ten of them. Plus you still need bullets and 209 primers too. Worse is you can't reload them either. I don't see this as getting much out of the gate, so to speak. Too costly.
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/federal-fire-stick-muzzleloader-cartridges-triple-8-powder.html

About its only advantage is for cold, wet, rainy days maybe. You'd be less likely to have a misfire then.

But heck I use paper cartridges that are waxed in my muzzle loader. Those are more or less waterproof to some extent. You cut off the end, pour in the powder, and ram the rest down the barrel. Then prime the pan or stick on a cap and you are ready to go. Those are a lot cheaper than these firesticks.

If Federal had come out with some kind of waterproof powder cartridge that you could shove down your barrel, I would applaud them for creativity. It wouldn't be traditional, but it would be interesting.

After mulling this over for the past number of weeks, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't care. It's a piss poor idea, only serving to rake in cash from suckers for a few years until it is discontinued. Then they are left with useless guns. I won't buy one, but if someone else does, I don't care. I enjoy muzzleloading, and I enjoy the winter muzzleloading season. I don't see this helping or hurting me.

[Traffer]

This is interesting. I don't hunt with muzzle loaders. Never will. I have a comment that's it. This is what happens with a government gone wild with socialistic tendencies. Just 10 minutes ago I was reading about Formula 1 racing (which I used to enjoy watching). I thought to myself "why don't any Americans compete in this race?" . Then I remembered. It is not a legitimate race anymore. There are so many restrictions and rules, new ones every year, that it it is more about how to tweak or cheat COMPLIANCE than it is a race.
That is exactly what is going on here with the RULES AND REGULATIONS concerning hunting and the ownership and use of guns.
It makes me want to puke. Like something out of a cheap sci-fi movie where the big brother government intrudes on every aspect of a persons lives. Young people don't even know what freedom is anymore.

[slim1836]

flintlocks in the rain aren't a big deal and will be reliable if you understand how to handle them.

And a "Cows Knee" helps keep the rain out too.

Slim

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

In Wisconsin we have a ML season that is a joke. Therebis no advantage to it. It is the last season to start in the year so archers and modern rifles all get first bidding. ML's just get the 10 days following the modern gun season. I hunt with a flintlock, but don't give a fart whether they allowed semi autos for the entire duration.

What matters more to me is the muzzleloader-only areas. There used to be a number of State Parks that were ML only. Now most of those parks were opened to modern smokeless shell-shuckers. Well now the few parks that remained ML only are wildly popular. It may be because you can hunt public land without having to duck for cover when you hear someone light up their AR-15. I wish they would get the hint and make more acreage ML-only.

[Good Cheer]

I've come to enjoy muzzleloaders with rifling designed to work with lubed lead and paper patched and patched round ball. Only just enough twist to get the job done. Got a .386 bore lined little half stock to play with now. Would like to have one for .41 round ball but .38 ball is OK.

[trapper44shooter]

I agree this "FIRESTICK" is not what I call a muzzleloader powder even though it will appeal to some but not to me at all that's taking all of the old time fun out of muzzleloading hunting IMO

[trapper44shooter]

Wait a minute fellas I am using a CVA Optima V2 LR with a scope I don't mean to be a Hyprocite I am very sorry fellas I didn't mean to do that

[rfd]

the contention about the "firestick muzzleloader" (and other such contraptions) is that it's called a "muzzleloader" because the projectile can only be loaded via the muzzle. loading the powder and primer (both employed in a projectile-less cartridge) via the breech is considered a "convenience". so it's touted as a "muzzleloader of convenience" (for lazy-butt people). this is akin to the "airbow" - touted as a "crossbow without the inconvenience of an actual bow or bowstring", because it's actually an air rifle that spits out bolts (arrows) instead of pellets or bullets. oh the imagination of yankee ingenuity to make up this stupid stuff, and the stupid consumers who actually buy into it all.