45 ACP Rimmed VS 45 ACP Straight?

[DonMountain]

I have a S&W 1917 ex military revolver chambered in 45 ACP and have been using the "moon clips" to load it. Since the pistol was designed for rimmed cartridges and not the straight-wall types, I was thinking of purchasing some of the Rimmed 45 ACP brass that is available from Star Line. What is everyone's opinion of the use of straight wall or rimmed 45 ACP cases? Is it worth the expense of purchasing the rimmed cases? Are they easier to use then the moon clipped cases? Do you recommend them?

[35remington]

When the gun Has To! go bang, using ammo most similar to what it was intended to use, which has a headspacing rim, is the way to go. This is the most reliable way to run a revolver.

Yes I do recommend them. Having the most reliable option and freeing yourself from having to use moon clips is very worthwhile.

[Outpost75]

The revolvers usually work better with loads optimized for them, in terms of bullet diameter fitting the cylinder throats, of a weight which shoots to the sights, and of a power level which is accurate. The best revolver loads are usually quite different from those optimized for an autopistol. Using Auto Rim brass makes it apparent that they are REVOLVER loads not to be used in the bottom feeders.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I have been carrying a S&W1917 with .45AutoRim cartridges when hiking in southcentral Pennsylvania for decades.
Mine is completely reliable with the AutoRim cartridges and reasonably accurate out to 25yds.
It has managed to ruin a groundhog's day on several occasions and it's presence on my hip is a comfort on those occasions I encounter other humans.

[Dan Cash]

Auto rim cartridges are slower to load but carry better than clipped ACP cartridges. As far as performance, I can't tell the difference but, then I have only one load for any .45 ACP or AR cartridge and do not try to expand the envelope.

[Larry Gibson]

For use in your M1917 Revolver make sure you get the 45 AR (Auto Rim) cases which have rims as thick as the ACPs rim + the moon clip thickness. You don't want to get the 45 ACP length "Cowboy" or American Cowboy cases made for SAAs with 45 ACP cylinders for SASS competition.

I used a lot of 45 AR cases back in the day in several M1917 S&W and Colts. They were fine with loads I wanted to keep separate from use in my M1911s. However, I seldom use those loads anymore and , instead, just use my standard 45 ACP load (195 - 205 gr cast over 5 gr Bullseye) in my M1917/25 with half or full moon clips. That load is as accurate as any in my revolver. It also simplifies loading because the SDB is already set up for it and I've 4 separate 6 cavity moulds. Using my standard 45 ACP loads also eliminates deciding what ammo to use as I've usually got several thousand on hand loaded at any given time. Just me is all as I did find the 45 AR loads to be useful back then.....still have a couple hundred 45 AR R-P cases......

[Golfswithwolves]

Mr. DonMountain- You will likely find that there is very little difference in the performance of your revolver whether you use straight-walled .45 ACP case with moon clips or the .45 Auto-Rim cases. Actually the weapon was originally modified from a standard cylinder revolver as a stopgap solution so that it could be used by the military in WWI with .45 ACP ammo, the supply of Government Model 1911 pistols being short at the time. Auto-Rim cartridge cases came much later and are the ones I like to load up (you will need a special cartridge holder for your loading press because of the rim thickness of the cases). Carrying some .45 ACP cartridges in your moon clips gives you a very quick reload of the cylinder either way.

[Texas by God]

Back when I had a 1917 S&W, I used the same loads that I used in my Goverment .45 and my Star PD .45 autos. I did shoot some .45 Auto Rim factory ammo in it, but never bothered buying a shell holder to reload the cases. Around that time the full moon clips came out and I bought a couple. But most of the time I just fired it and plucked the empties out with my fingernails because I had all the time in the world back then.

[Snow ninja]

To me, it’s definitely worth getting some to try out. You won’t waste your money. I prefer the auto-rim in my 1917. You can just use ACP load data.

[gwpercle]

The S&W 1917 revolver was designed to use 45acp ammo (rimless case ) with 1/2 moon clips for proper extraction of the fired cases.
The 45 AR , Auto-Rim (rimmed case ) came out after the war so you didn't have to fool with those pesky 1/2 and later full moon clips . That big rim took care of extraction.

If you don't care to fool around with moon clips or have a large free supply of 45 acp ammo / cases ... buy some of the Auto Rim cases and never look back .

I like the auto-rim cases because I don't like fooling with the moon clips but I already have three or four 5 gallon buckets of 45 acp , once fired brass cases (from the old days when it was GI surplus) and being frugal (cheap) I reload them a lot and put up with the clips .

If I were buying new brass... I would buy the 45 AR for a 1917 S&W ...the case with the rim .
Gary

[TNsailorman]

I no longer have a 1911 and I still have quite a few loaded .45 ACP to work my way through but when they are finally shot up in my 22-4, I will load with auto rim cases and sell the acp stuff. I may keep a few full moon clips just for that time I hope never happens again. I am 78 now and de-mooing acp brass and even worse getting loaded stuff back into moon clips is just not my idea of fun. And I am not going to pay $40.00 and up to get one of those tools that makes the job easier. Did I say that I am frugal (cheap too). james

[Bigslug]

The main purpose for moon clips TODAY is to provide fast reloads for the guys that still compete with revolvers - OR to give a revolver option to a guy who predominantly runs autoloaders. For that, they're great. As a historical answer to the problem of providing enough pistols for a military crisis, they're cool.

Otherwise, I find them to be a complete pain in the ***. Clicking rounds in, clicking spent brass out, keeping them from bending, having to keep track of your mooning and de-mooning tools. . .I give them a HARD pass for most applications and will take a rimmed round almost every time.

[Dale53]

First of all, I am a fan of .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim revolvers. When considering ACP cases, Auto Rim cases, moon clips, RiMZ clips, etc. I do not look at them as "either or". I look at them as choices for a given purpose.

As an example: I am an old man these days, but when I was much younger, .45 ACP cases, once fired, were available for very low prices and I bought them by the thousands when I was active in IPSC. They were military once fired and it was necessary to remove the primer pocket crimp. However, that was a one time thing and was not a problem - just something that needed to be done before reloading.

Most of my early uses was .45 ACP cases in a variety of 1911's. When I would use the revolvers, I also mainly used ACP cases and loads (with excellent results, I might add). I was in the field a LOT as I really enjoyed roaming the woods and hunting edible small game. The revolver excelled in that as it did not throw the brass away. I really liked using the Auto Rim loads in the field just like any other revolver I might use.

After I got my 625-6 and 625-8 JM Special, I enjoyed using the Auto Rim loads at the range AND in the field. I ended up with a moonclip tool for loading and unloading the steel full moon clips. When using the tools, I did not find it a chore to use the clips. Then, I discovered the polymer RiMZ clips. They are extremely handy to load and unload without the necessity of using tools. They are excellent for range and field use but do not retain the cases as well as the steel ones for serious use.

Frankly, I enjoy the choices and make my decision on what to use at any given time, as to which is best for a given situation.

Startline Auto Rim cases are superior to the old Remington cases which have not been available for many years.

Did I mention I LOVE .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim revolvers?:bigsmyl2:

FWIW
Dale53

[DonMountain]

I appreciate all of the input on this issue and you all have given me some valuable information on the 45 ACP Rim VS non-rimmed cases. I don't own any semiauto pistols in 45 ACP anymore as I have gravitated to shooting revolvers. And this old S&W 1917 is one of my favorites to shoot. I have a few thousand of the non-rimmed 45 ACP cases that I have used for years, with the full moon clips of which I have maybe 10 of them. And may continue to use them when target shooting for fast loading on the range (out back of my barn). And I made my own de-mooning tool from a piece of 1/2" electrical conduit that works very well. But, as I get more elderly even pushing the cartridges into those full-moon clips is hard on the fingers. And holding onto the clips as I remove the empty cases is getting harder. So, I was making a trip to one of my favorite reloading supply places and they offer these 45 ACP rimmed cases by Star-Line for sale pretty cheap. Hence my question of how they work. I guess my next question will be how much do I need to modify my loads to transition to the rimmed cases? I am using random range brass now with CCI 300 large pistol primers, 5.0 grains of W-231 powder and an RCBS 45-201 SWC projectile sized to 0.452" that shoots well in the S&W 1917.

[cabezaverde]

Could anyone spare a single 45 rimmed case for me to try in my unaltered Blackhawk convertible?

[oldsalt444]

45 Auto Rim cases? Absolutely! For bullseye competition I use rimmed cases for my 50 yard loads which demand the greatest possible accuracy. I use ACP cases in moon clips for 25 yard loads in my S&W 25. The moon clips are faster to load, but you can also get speed loaders for Auto Rim cases. Try it, you'll like it.

[TNsailorman]

oldsalt444, where did you find speed loaders for the auto-rim? I would like to have at least a couple of them. Thanks, james

[Dale53]

Cabezaverde;
.45 Auto Rim cases will not work in your Blackhawk Convertible. The rim is too thick. However, the .45 Cowboy Special cases are essentially, a .45 ACP case with a .45 Colt Rim. I have a Ruger SS Bisley Blackhawk .45 ACP/.45 Colt Convertible and use the .45 Cowboy Special cases when using heavy bullets with a crimp groove in my .45 ACP cylinder. They work perfectly well in that use.

Starline has .45 Cowboy Special cases in stock:

https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-cowboy-special

FWIW,
Dale5

[Tatume]

Could anyone spare a single 45 rimmed case for me to try in my unaltered Blackhawk convertible?

I don't have a Blackhawk convertible to examine, but I strongly suspect that the Auto Rim cartridge will not fit. The Blackhawk single action doesn't need the rim or clip for extraction, so I wouldn't expect Ruger to mill the cylinder for clearance.

[jimb16]

I had both the colt and the S&W. I used ARs,half moons and full moon clips. The .45ARs were best when you just wanted to refill 1 or 2 chambers. After a while, I just used them and left the moonies at home.

[dbosman]

One advantage for the rimmed cases in a suitable revolver, is significantly stouter loads. Handloader magazine has done at least two articles over the years regarding heavier bullets, and magnum loads.

[megasupermagnum]

Can 45 ACP rimmed brass be loaded to 45 super levels? That might be fun.

[M-Tecs]

Can 45 ACP rimmed brass be loaded to 45 super levels? That might be fun.

45 Super brass is thicker primarily due to the unsupported areas of the original chamber. With a revolver that is not a issue. The issue (for the most part) is not the strength of the brass but the strength of the firearm.

[AaronL]

Don,

I see you are from Mid-Missouri. Starline is in Sedalia, MO. When I buy new brass, I drive the 1 hour to Starline and buy it directly from them. They are very friendly. Next door to Starline is Sierra Bullets. They give free tours and it is well worth the time. Sierra also sells blem bullets for a very reasonable price

I would recommend the trip since you are in Mid-Missouri.

Aaron

[Treetop]

oldsalt444, where did you find speed loaders for the auto-rim? I would like to have at least a couple of them. Thanks, james

TNsailorman, I bought mine from Midway USA years ago. I believe they are HKS brand speed loaders. Semper Fi, Treetop

[scattershot]

The Auto Rim cartridge is a great solution for those who don’t want to use the moon clips, but the 1917 was designed for them, and was the original speedloader. Just food for thought.

[Outpost75]

Interesting wrinkle is that many of the 1914 British WW1 Purchase Colt New Service .455 revolvers were later shipped to Canada in the 1920s and rechambered for .45 Colt, for use by the RCMP in the western provinces and northwest territories, whereas in the eastern and maritime provinces they kept the orginal .455 Eley chambering. You occasionally come across these guns on auction sites which have both WW1 military proofs and regimental markings, and also RCMP property marks.

This modification was done without facing off the rear of the cylinder to adjust for the difference in rim thickness between .45 at .060" and .455 at .039" because doing so would have required required changing out the frame lug to fit the shortened cylinder. The Cdn. engineers at the government arsenal wanted to make the .45 Colt conversion for the RCMP in the least expensive and most expedient way.

Therefore most Cdn. .455 New Service revolvers which were arsenal rechambered to .45 Colt will have a slight counterbore of .512" diameter only about .020" deep to properly headspace the .45 Colt cartridges as used by the RCMP. But .455 cartridges having the usual .530-.535" rim diameter will bridge across the smaller diameter of the .45 Colt counterbore, and so will have correct headspace and head clearance when inserted into the rechambered, but unfaced original cylinder.

In those 1920s Cdn. arsenal rechambered New Service revolvers you can use either .45 Colt ammunition, .455 Mk.1 or Mk2 or .455 Colt or .476 Eley as "shorts."

A versatile revolver indeed! VERY MUCH more useful for the shooter, as rechambered .455s will sell for about $100 less than an unaltered WW1 British/Cdn. proofed .455 New Service.

255770

[35 Whelen]

I have a S&W 1917 ex military revolver chambered in 45 ACP and have been using the "moon clips" to load it. Since the pistol was designed for rimmed cartridges and not the straight-wall types, I was thinking of purchasing some of the Rimmed 45 ACP brass that is available from Star Line. What is everyone's opinion of the use of straight wall or rimmed 45 ACP cases? Is it worth the expense of purchasing the rimmed cases? Are they easier to use then the moon clipped cases? Do you recommend them?

I shoot a Colt Gov't Model Series 70 45 ACP and also have a couple of 1917's. I also use both types of brass. As others have said, one doesn't have to use the moon clips as they really are a pain to load and unload and it's fairly simple to just pluck ACP empties from the chambers with ones fingernail. I keep a few moon clips loaded with SD loads and for when I'm out and about so I can drop one or two in my pocket.

I use AR brass pretty much exclusively for heavier hunting loads.

https://i.imgur.com/HcicHN6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/B5v9axe.jpg

As others have said, the 45 Auto Rim came out a few years (ca. 1920) after the 1917 revolvers.

For data, I HIGHLY recommend Handloader No. 306 in which there are over 400 .45 AR loads, or one can subscribe to www.loaddata.com and access those loads and lots more.

35W

[9.3X62AL]

I have use for both 45 Auto Rim brass and for full-moon clips. The steel clips get used to contain my factory carry ammo; the Auto Rim gets the call for most other usages.

In times past I had a late-70s-built S&W Model 25-2, which I enjoyed but fought with over its GENEROUS throat specs and snug lands & grooves. It lasted about a year before I tired of its moodiness. About 2 months ago I bought a new S&W PC Model 625, and it is SUPERB. Dimensions are great, .452"-sized bullets shoot accurately (200-265 grains), and Life Is Good. I am slowly re-accumulating clips (steel and polymer RIMZ), the tools to deal with the clips and secured 200 Starline AR cases. The consensus among competitors and recreational shooters is that steel clips are the gold standard if (A) the arm is going in harm's way and (B) you want to carry mass-market factory ammo in 45 ACP. That is my particular interest, because I do use the 625 for CCW and open carry, and need to have my old shop's duty rounds on board if the balloon goes up. Some of the boutique ammomakers put out some interesting 45 Auto Rim ammo, FWIW. I use HKS speedloaders with the Auto Rim cases while hunting or playing, and swap in the clipped duty stuff when I return to civilization--1 in the cylinder, 2 in the speedloader belt baskets.

Suit yourself and your needs, just know that a lot of options exist for sport shooters and self-defenders. The RIMZ clips are easy to fit ammo into, but won't contain the rounds if the clip gets dropped on the ground. Steel clips retain rounds if dropped (most of the time), but are subject to getting bent either when dropped or during attachment/removal of rounds. A BENT CLIP WILL DISABLE YOUR SIDEARM. Steel clips ARE A PITA--but they have a valid place in The Big Picture. If they serve a need for you, get the tools to attach/remove ammo with. You'll thank me later.

So far, I have run the Lee 200 grain SWC--the Lee 230 grain TC--and Lyman's #454424 SWC that scales @ 259 grains in 92/6/2 alloy. These have all shot well for me, and I have a Lyman #452423 awaiting attention and a casting session. These run about 230-240 grains as-cast, depending upon era made, mould cherry used, and whatever poetry Lyman is reading on the day the blocks were finished. Lyman moulds are like old Duesenberg automobiles......"No two are alike". We will see what falls out.

I don't have plans to "maximize performance" with the 625. There are two 44 Magnum wheelguns in the gun safe, both Rugers--and a 45 Colt Bisley Blackhawk right next to those. Those 200 grainers at 750 FPS were a docile delight; the 260 grain Keith SWC at 800-825 FPS won't do anything it connects with on 2 or 4 legs a bit of good at the usual 45 ACP speed limits. Even with FMJ/RN hardball, the 45 ACP's reputation as a felon disincentivizer precedes it. My shop's carry ammo (WWB 230 grain JHP) works wonderfully on clients who have chosen to exchange finality with our deputies. The recovered bullets look like ad copy for Winchester ammunition.

[DonMountain]

Don,

I see you are from Mid-Missouri. Starline is in Sedalia, MO. When I buy new brass, I drive the 1 hour to Starline and buy it directly from them. They are very friendly. Next door to Starline is Sierra Bullets. They give free tours and it is well worth the time. Sierra also sells blem bullets for a very reasonable price

I would recommend the trip since you are in Mid-Missouri.

Aaron

I toured both the Starline and the Sierra plants in Sedalia a couple of years ago, when my wife took me there for a surprise visit for my birthday. I did purchase some factory reject bullets from the Sierra plant and they shot pretty well for me. But from the factory, Starline only sells brass in 500 round boxes with free shipping. And its no cheaper for me to drive that hour to the factory and burn all the gas to pay the same price for them. And for my old "collector" grade guns I usually don't need 500 new brass. Especially if I just want to try them out. I can ride up to Grafs in Mexico, Missouri in a little less time and purchase just 100 rounds of brass in zip-lock bags to try out for about the same money as I would have to pay at the Starline factory per round. So, thats what I did based on all of your recommendations. Yesterday I bought 200 casings of 45 ACP Rimmed and the new shell holder to reload them. And I already have about 1000 RCBS 45 201 grain semi wadcutters all cast up and sized and ready to load in these new cases.

[slam45]

Could anyone spare a single 45 rimmed case for me to try in my unaltered Blackhawk convertible?

you need cowboy special (starline's name for it) with 45 Colt rim thickness, auto rim cases will not fit in the blackhawk that is stock...

[Tatume]

I don't have a Blackhawk convertible to examine, but I strongly suspect that the Auto Rim cartridge will not fit.

The Starline 45 Cowboy cases will work in a revolver that is correctly chambered for 45 ACP. The 45 Cowboy, 45 Auto Rim, and the 45 ACP cases are all 0.898" long. The Cowboy and ACP will headspace on the case mouth, as the ACP was designed to do. The Cowboy will extract from a S&W Model 625. I had to be sure before I posted this, so I tried them in two Model 625 revolvers.

There's still no reason to bother with them in a Blackhawk w/ 45 ACP cylinder, as it extracts the ACP cartridge just fine. In fact, it has the most positive of all extractors.

[azrednek]

Mr. DonMountain- You will likely find that there is very little difference in the performance of your revolver whether you use straight-walled .45 ACP case with moon clips or the .45 Auto-Rim cases. Actually the weapon was originally modified from a standard cylinder revolver as a stopgap solution so that it could be used by the military in WWI with .45 ACP ammo, the supply of Government Model 1911 pistols being short at the time. Auto-Rim cartridge cases came much later and are the ones I like to load up (you will need a special cartridge holder for your loading press because of the rim thickness of the cases). Carrying some .45 ACP cartridges in your moon clips gives you a very quick reload of the cylinder either way.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Years ago I spent much time and experimenting with 45ACP and 45 AR. If there is a difference in accuracy between the two types of brass. It has to be very insignificant as I couldn’t see a difference in three different 45ACP S&W revolvers. The only time I saw a difference and accuracy go slightly south was using a hodge-podge of ACP mixed head stamped brass. I also had the same insignificant results with either Remington or Starline AR brass.

I was fortunate buying up moon clips years ago. Often paying as little as a nickel going through junk boxes at gun shows. I love the convenance of carrying a bunch of pre loaded moon clips to the range. I do all my mooning and de-mooning at home. At the range if I run out of clipped ammo. It’s easier and a lot quicker to use my finger nails to do the extraction.

Regardless of brass, type of bullet or lead pot formula. A 200 gr slug of any type, home or commercial cast, jacketed or swaged on top of 4.0 Bullseye with any brand of standard primer. Printed the tightest clusters imaginable. A close second for me is the 220gr SAECO button nosed wadcutters. Not really important but I’ve heard some hand loaders refer or comment on 45AR with the nick name “Stumpy”.

As a side note, it will be a very cold day in Hades before I ever buy a box of Remington factory 45AR again. Dealer wanted $53.95 for a box of 50 with 230gr LRN slug.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I spent a lot of months playing with 45AR and could talk about it for an entire afternoon. Its my second favorite hand loaded cartridge next to 41 Mag.

[azrednek]

To me, it’s definitely worth getting some to try out. You won’t waste your money. I prefer the auto-rim in my 1917. You can just use ACP load data.

For what it’s worth. I’ve seen a couple of older, likely 70’s loading manuals giving a .5 boost to the ACP max load of 5.0 of Bullseye to 5.5 for AR. However I rarely even go max in my near antique 1917’s. No need to push it in order to punch holes in paper.

[tazman]

I do all my mooning and de-mooning at home.

It is much more convenient to do your mooning at home. The only drawback is the Dems on the television that I am mooning can't see it.

[TNsailorman]

Thanks for the heads up Treetop. Your comment and another one got me to thinking and I started rummaging thru some of my old stuff left over my competition days(long, long ago) and I found 4 of the old HKS Speed Loader for the .45 AR. I am good to go now. Thanks guys, james

[Treetop]

Thanks for the heads up Treetop. Your comment and another one got me to thinking and I started rummaging thru some of my old stuff left over my competition days(long, long ago) and I found 4 of the old HKS Speed Loader for the .45 AR. I am good to go now. Thanks guys, james

Yes TNsailorman, HKS speed Loaders, not H-K like I said. That didn't look exactly right when I typed it. I'm going to edit my original post right now to read "HKS". Thanks, Treetop

[StrawHat]

A tool for removing cases or cartridges from moon clips is fairly easy to make from a piece of tubing. Cut/file one end to leave about a 1/16” lip, roughly 3/8” wide at the end of the pipe. Slip over the case and twist. The lip catches on the clip and the case pops loose.

A loading tool is slightly harder to make but still easy. A board, lever, bolt, nut and a couple of washers. Pictures are available online, maybe YouTube.

I have made several of each to help with the ACP revolvers I own.

I also use the Auto Rim cartridge but my preference is the ACP. I do not use a self loader, so all my loads are suitable for the revolvers. My revolvers span from 1918 through the 21st century so I keep loads seperate for the newest ones that can handle more pressure. My 1917s get hard ball equivalent only.

Never tried RIMZ yet. On the to-do list.

Kevin

[TNsailorman]

I read or heard many years ago about some guy who made a tool for loading the .45ACP cartridges into the moon clip. He took a pair of Sears channel locks, ground the teeth of to smooth, fastened a couple of thick pads of leather to the jaws ( whether he glued or riveted them I don't remember). Then all he had to do was finger start a couple of cartridges on opposing sides to a moon clip and then finish loading with the altered channel locks. I haven't tried that myself but it something to consider. The price hat is asked for the tools to load moon clips is way above their convenience. I made 2 of the de-mooning tubes way back in the early 80's using the same method that Strawhat describes in his post but on mine I closed the end by having a friend weld a cap on a 1/2" tube and cut the tube long enough to hold 6 empty .45ACP cases. I cut a 1/8" off half the circumference of the open end of the tube to go over the rim to twist the empty case out of the moon clip. I them bored a blank plastic screwdriver handle to fit the closed end of the tube into and epoxied it into place. Works like a charm. My son-in-law did most of this work as he had access to boring machine and welding that I didn't have. De-mooning is not too much trouble at all with a tool like these but re-mooning is still a chore and leaves the finger sore if not done right. Lately I have been going more and more to the AR brass to get away from the sore fingers. my experience anyway, james

[StrawHat]

[QUOTE=TNsailorman;4818741]...I read or heard many years ago about some guy who made a tool for loading the .45ACP cartridges into the moon clip. He took a pair of Sears channel locks... james...[QUOTE]

James,

I read this two months ago. It nagged at me but I finally got my biggest chall locks out and son of a gun, it works. You do have to fiddle with the first pair to raise the clip into the extractor groove but i foun a suitably thick washer and WOW it does a nice job. Ext I am going to figure a way to mount it to a board so i need just one hand to run it.

Kevin

[Gray Fox]

Midway still stocks the HKS .45 AR speedloaders as I just got a couple. I, too, got one of the performance center 625-8s, but have no access to a range until this lockdown ends. An interesting twist on the moon clip situation arises with the S&W Governor shooting .410, .45 Colt and .45 acp with moon clips. I suppose because of the thin rim of the Colt round vs a .45 AR rim and headspace, this gun will only function with steel moon clips not the thicker Rimz plastic ones. I learned that the first time I tried to close the cylinder using one. A loaded acp round drops all the way into the charge hole until it encounters the rasised area at the end of a Colt cartridge length. GF

[ddixie884]

I'm just sorry the Governor won't use .45AR.

[Harter66]

The Governor HS Colts on the OD of the cylinder and full moon clips on the extractor .

A friend bought a Governor several years ago and we split 100 clips from Revolver Supply at about 75¢ ea in hand . I have about 70 now and keep 6 boxes loaded in clips in a 30 cal can . The loaded and empty clips fit nicely in the large pill bottles .

For AR I got 100 rounds with the 1917 when I bought it .
Manuals have separate data for AR usually for heavier bullets .
For most of my shooting rimmed or clipped makes little difference . The big difference in the clips is that all the brass stays hooked together and doesn't get fumbled and dropped .

I recently scored a medium flat rate full of RP AR brass for ACP range brass money . It was offered as 450 pieces , I took it with no remorse at all .
That said I don't have a 45 auto .......just revolvers to shoot the 1917 S&W doesn't like the 454424 but it gulps down the 45-200 RCBS and H&G 130 and places them in neat little 4-5" bunches at 25 yd . It pleases me that a 103 yr old pistol shoots so well . I will eventually come up with a big fat nosed 230 gr bullet for it .
The big advantage of only having revolvers is the lengths that can be loaded in the short brass . Mom's 1917 Colts shot the 452-255 Lee at 265 gr quite well . I used Speer data for a 260 gr HP and seated the cast to the top of the top lube groove . It worked well and gave about 850 fps .

I will load the AR brass with the same loads used in ACP brass . I expect I will put the AR back as bulk ammo and mostly use the clipped ACP for now .

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I've got 45 Auto Rim and full moon, half moon, and 1/4 moon clips for my 1937 S&W Brazilian (like the 1917) revolvers. The Auto Rim is simpler in that you only handle the cartridge ONCE when loading the revolver. All the other clips require putting the 45 ACP cartridges into the clips, then unloading the clips after shooting. For cold weather or 'speed loading' the full moon clips do work better than individual cartridges. When I carry the 45 ACP S&W revolvers I start with 45 Auto Rim cartridges with some 45 Auto Rims available and a full moon clip available if for some reason I need a fast reload. There are speedloaders for the 45 Auto Rim but for real speed the full moon clips are faster. For 'casual' shooting, the Auto Rims are easier. You need to try both and decide which works best for your shooting. There is little difference in reloading requirements or on target results. Most dual cylinder single action revolvers won't allow the Auto Rim to be used in the 45 ACP or the 45 Colt cylinder.

[El Bibliotecario]

If rapidly reloading a .45 ACP weapon is important to me I carry a Colt Govt Model.

I have no reason to rapidly reload my .45 ACP revolvers, no interest in buying auto rim brass when I have a lifetime supply of ACP brass, and no desire to klutze around with Rube Goldberg clipping/declipping gadgets which eat up any time saved by loading with clips. I load the ACP rounds singly into the chambers. I do not use heavy loads, and they invariably lift out with no effort.

I imagine many clip affectionados will see the above as heresy. I think everyone should load their .45 ACP revolver the way they sweet please.

[ddixie884]

I think everyone should load their .45 ACP revolver the way they sweet please.[/QUOTE]

Me too. It is still a free country............

[StrawHat]

… I will eventually come up with a big fat nosed 230 gr bullet for it ...

Consider the SAECO 453, a 235 grain full wad cutter. I cast them with a 16/1 or 20/1 alloy and load them to hardball speeds. They hit like a freight train.

Kevin

[Bigslug]

I find moon clips to be a colossal P I T A.

Auto Rim brass takes your 1917 back to what a revolver should be - Gun + Ammo = good times.

Moon clips are more along the lines of: Gun + Ammo + adapter (that can get bent) + loading gadget (that got left at home) + unloading gadget (that got left at home) = endless frustration.

[Charliemac]

I simply load acp rounds without the half moon clips and use a 1/4" dowel and push them when I'm at the range. I'm shooting a 1917 Colt that my Dad picked up from Montgomery Wards in the early 60's for $12. He said there was a bunch of them on a table and he picked through them to find the best one. Also got a cross draw holster for it at the same time. Btw it was a ww2 re-issue, its parkerized.

[StrawHat]

This question is for those who find moon clips a problem.

Do you own a 1911 (or any self loader) and do you feel loading the magazine is also an inconvenience?

Kevin

[35 Whelen]

This question is for those who find moon clips a problem.

Do you own a 1911 (or any self loader) and do you feel loading the magazine is also an inconvenience?

Kevin

I find loading magazines for my Colt Gov't Model a minor inconvenience, but much easier than loading moon clips. As far as unloading the magazine, piece of cake. :bigsmyl2:

35W

[El Bibliotecario]

A nice thing about magazines is that one does not have to remove the fired brass.

I find magazines carry very comfortably in flat pouches from which they can be retrieved and the weapon reloaded in a few seconds, thanks to the Government Model's ability to rapidly eject the old magazine.

Individual rounds and 1/3 moon clips fit in cartridge loops. The original issue 1/2 moon clips carry nicely in the USGI pouch for such. I am not sure how moon clip affectionados carry those bulky items. I always think of chipmunks with their cheeks stuffed with nuts, but suppose that isn't practical.

[35remington]

When walking afield I carried them in jeans or shorts pockets but bent some that way. Field shooting is infrequent enough that moon clips offer no advantage and some drawbacks.

But for short range sessions with much shooting they have some appeal.

[gwpercle]

I have a S&W 1917 ex military revolver chambered in 45 ACP and have been using the "moon clips" to load it. Since the pistol was designed for rimmed cartridges and not the straight-wall types, I was thinking of purchasing some of the Rimmed 45 ACP brass that is available from Star Line. What is everyone's opinion of the use of straight wall or rimmed 45 ACP cases? Is it worth the expense of purchasing the rimmed cases? Are they easier to use then the moon clipped cases? Do you recommend them?

45 Auto Rim was developed just for taking the place of 45 acp in moon clips ... even back then some didn't like fooling around with the stinking moon clips ...be they full moon , half moon or even 1/4 moon ... Don't like moon clips then roll with the 45 AR ... it's just the ticket for that train .
Gary

[Harter66]

Consider the SAECO 453, a 235 grain full wad cutter. I cast them with a 16/1 or 20/1 alloy and load them to hardball speeds. They hit like a freight train.

Kevin

I have a 454424 with an HP mod I think I could dabble with the nose length there and duplicate the 423 at 230 . I wish Lee made a 452-230 RNFP like the 452-255 minus a band and groove or even the 452-252 SWC . Maybe a 454421 :)

[Walks]

The neat thing about .45AR brass is that it lasts Foever.
I'm still shooting some Western .45AR brass that My Dad gave Me when I got a S&W 1917 in 1979.
With 1/2 a dozen boxes of .45AR purchased over the next few years. And 500 Remington cases purchased from Graf & Sons several years later, I'll never have to worry about brass in My lifetime.
And I load the AR brass with #452423 Keith SWC.

As far as an AR case fitting into a Ruger Blachhawk. It WILL NOT FIT. Had an friend that tried it. He did manage to get a AR case past the loading gate. I had a heck of a time getting the cylinder out to remove the loaded .45AR cartridge.

[Dale53]

One thing that is NOT mentioned in this long thread and NEEDS to be:

NOTE: Most of the 1917 revolvers (with the exception of some early Colt revolvers whose chambers were bored straight thru without the ledge that the ACP case mouth headspaces on) work perfectly fine using ACP cases without the moon clips. When used in that manner the ejector does not work but you can punch out the empties with a pencil or generally just use your finger tips. HOWEVER, some of the late issue S&W Model 625’s do not have the headspacing ledge that the earlier revolvers did. The newer one have the ball seats like the other caliber
Smith revolvers do. If you have one of the later Smith’s you MUST use moonclips for .45 ACP’s to properly headspace. Brian Pearce in a couple of Handloader Magazines discussed this at some length.

Some people are upset at this state of affairs and some not.

Me, I do not EVER try to use .45 ACP’s in either of my 625’s without moonclips so it has no effect on me. However, I mention this for those that may not know this. I, personally, checked my two 625’s and one has “the original cylinder throats and the other revolver has the NEW design ball seat.

FWIW
Dale 53

[kens]

This question is for those who find moon clips a problem.

Do you own a 1911 (or any self loader) and do you feel loading the magazine is also an inconvenience?

Kevin

Thats a classic !!!
I have a old smith 1917 and run 45acp thru it side by side a 1911. no moon clips,
the rim in this example is there for extraction not so much for headspace
pluck them out with a fingernail

[Jtarm]

A nice thing about magazines is that one does not have to remove the fired brass.

I find magazines carry very comfortably in flat pouches from which they can be retrieved and the weapon reloaded in a few seconds, thanks to the Government Model's ability to rapidly eject the old magazine.

Individual rounds and 1/3 moon clips fit in cartridge loops. The original issue 1/2 moon clips carry nicely in the USGI pouch for such. I am not sure how moon clip affectionados carry those bulky items. I always think of chipmunks with their cheeks stuffed with nuts, but suppose that isn't practical.

A nice thing about cylinders is that one doesn’t have to go hunting for one’s brass[emoji6]

[ddixie884]

Just a note on heavier bullets for .45acp. I have in the past loaded the 454424 with all bands in the case with a bare sliver of the front band showing for use in a 1911. I was under the mistaken impression that the 255gr swcbb .452 by Magma was too long to fit in a 1911 magazine when seated to the crimp groove. I was wrong! It loads with a nearly perfect tolerance and if a barrel was ported for it I believe it should feed and function.

[Jtarm]

One thing that is NOT mentioned in this long thread and NEEDS to be:

NOTE: Most of the 1917 revolvers (with the exception of some early Colt revolvers whose chambers were bored straight thru without the ledge that the ACP case mouth headspaces on) work perfectly fine using ACP cases without the moon clips. When used in that manner the ejector does not work but you can punch out the empties with a pencil or generally just use your finger tips. HOWEVER, some of the late issue S&W Model 625’s do not have the headspacing ledge that the earlier revolvers did. The newer one have the ball seats like the other caliber
Smith revolvers do. If you have one of the later Smith’s you MUST use moonclips for .45 ACP’s to properly headspace. Brian Pearce in a couple of Handloader Magazines discussed this at some length.

Some people are upset at this state of affairs and some not.

Me, I do not EVER try to use .45 ACP’s in either of my 625’s without moonclips so it has no effect on me. However, I mention this for those that may not know this. I, personally, checked my two 625’s and one has “the original cylinder throats and the other revolver has the NEW design ball seat.

FWIW
Dale 53

I have a 625 PC purchased new in 2019 that fires fine without moons.

It’s chambers are a hair more generous than my 25-2. Some full wadcutters rounds I loaded a few months ago functioned fine in the 625, but wouldn’t chamber fully in the 25-2.