12 gauge "Economy RB" test with Mihec .680

[Petander]

User Gamsek sent me some 12 gauge Mihec RB:s to try, thanks a lot!

My good success with similar 20 gauge loadings got me interested,I have used Lee RB:s for that.

Right now I'm loading,this is very easy: Take a factory trap round,cut the crimp,pour out the shot,put in a felt wad and a round ball,roll crimp tight. Done! (A nitro card under the ball might be better but I don't have any. I use 13 mm cork for 20 gauge.)

https://i.postimg.cc/1X8zPRnT/IMG-20200128-103829-666.jpg

A range report will follow.

[Petander]

https://i.postimg.cc/pL4hm0n9/IMG-20200128-112148-098.jpg

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Petander, looking very nice and I can't wait to hear how it works out for you.

Best of luck.
Regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Mr_Sheesh]

Fun indeed - I've seen them made by opening the crimp by cracking it open, then remove the shot, plunk the round ball in the wad, and then force the shells' wad petals down against the ball (They will form an open bottomed "V" with the lead ball showing. I believe we were using .690 round balls back then (In the late 80s or so) - Called them "Pumpkin ball rounds". Turns your 12 Ga into a "Brown Bess", sort of :)

Didn't have PC back then, that wasn't even a gleam in anyone's eye - yet!

[Petander]

A good start,slow fire standing 25 meters. Benelli M3 Open sights which are good.

https://i.postimg.cc/TPtt9F5Q/IMG-20200128-133910.jpg

Power is on the edge, to self load or not. Luckily M3 has the pump option so after some pistol shooting I fired fast 1+8 to the same target:

https://i.postimg.cc/TwrFcCGP/IMG-20200128-135750.jpg

Some other trap ammo brand may or may not cycle more reliably. Might be a lubing question,too,I don't remember the last time lubing this...

https://i.postimg.cc/3NjyY5hH/IMG-20200128-134601.jpg.

I obviously have to buy the mold now. :)

[bikerbeans]

I am sorry you have blue balls.:bigsmyl2:

BB

[Markopolo]

lol at BikerBeans...

that brand low base shells cycle ok without the rb thing??? diameter with round ball ok? they look a little swelled on top but could be the camera angle..

[centershot]

Petander, did you shorten the wad petals?

[Mr_Sheesh]

Oh. Obligatory note - Don't use these in a full choked shotgun, 0.729" bore less 0.040" for full choke = 0.689‬" and the wad petals might not like it - I only shot them in an Imp. Cyl. as that's 0.729" - 0..004" which is OK.

We never shortened the wad petals, with the fiber wad they probably didn't have to either.

[bikerbeans]

I've shot .690" round balls loaded in a fed 12s3 wad through a full choke 12ga. Eats up the petals but no damage to the shotgun.

BB

[Gamsek]

Petander, nice results! And great info on how you prepared them. A obligatory photo of “your” mould...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200128/f6c78198e01ec110507d2701063f289b.plist

[Petander]

No shortening of petals. Very simple operation.

This is a cylinder gun - I have tested 20 gauge RB:s even with full choke using soft lead.

20 gauge is pretty good when we hunt with shot,especially with tungsten I feel no handicap... But with slugs,a 12 has a huge advantage. A 12 gauge RB weighs twice the 20 RB.

A short cylinder gun is kinda nice,I get tight enough tungsten patterns for normal hunting and now this...

[longbow]

I was going to ask the same question regarding shortening the petals... or raising round ball so the equator is at the tips of petals but that would likely make the payload too long to crimp.

I have done much the same and oddly find that the wads seem to survive opening the crimp. Sometimes with excessively long petals I have seen folded/wrinkled petals on recovered wads but generally unless they are very long it isn't a problem. Still, I tend to trim petals back some or use a wad with appropriate depth shotcup. Not something you can do easily when adding a RB to a factory loaded shell.

But they work and seem to shoot pretty well for you so all good!

I was hoping that the 0.678" RB woul dbe a better fit in my shotcups. I had a bunch of old Pacific Verelite wads at the time and they fit well in those in my gun but I ran out and now have Winchester wads which have thinner petals. I find one wrap of printer paper as an inserted cylinder into the shotcup makes for nice fit to bore with the Winchester wads. I'm sure a donut wad would accomplish the same but have yet to try it out. Something to think about if accuracy is not as good as it might be with your economy loads. Donut wads are pretty easy to make if you can't buy them.

As always, Mihec's moulds are beautiful! Makes me want one but I have a Lyman 0.678" mould so hard to justify buying a beautiful brass double cavity Mihec mould... wait a minute... I think I need one!

Longbow

[Petander]

I didn't examine fired wads at all but I think I saw a couple,looking fine. I was too surprised about instant success.

Here you can see the ball,sitting on top of the wad. It's not a tight fit with petals. I picked a felt wad for no special reason.

Ball gets pushed a tad deeper when I roll crimp it,creating a compressed,pressure seated round. That machine is one of my best reloading purchased ever, I get uniform crimps.

https://i.postimg.cc/5tCQGXsX/IMG-20200128-220138.jpg9

[dverna]

I like simple.

Your group is more than adequate for close range work. The lighter loads make a lot of sense, at least around here where the biggest game is a 300 lb bear.

Not sure if you have “light handicap” loads in Finland. They have more power than regular trap loads used for Singles, but are still comfortable to shoot. They might cure your cycling problem.

[Hogtamer]

Very nice. So are they .678 as stamped on the mold or .680? I had decent results with .678 but .680 would be better.

[Petander]

These are average .680 with powder coating so it must be really close to 678 plain cast. I don't know Gamsek's alloy but it looks soft:

https://i.postimg.cc/C1CXWnHJ/IMG-20200128-134354.jpg

I'll do proper bench tests of course. About cycling,yes we have a huge amount of different trap ammo to choose from. This particular "Nobel" cycles my M3 with Lyman 525 pellet slugs loaded the same way except no additional felt or anything. Pellet is like 10% heavier than ball.

But lubing and warm weather may help,too. And besides,the pump function is there for this kind of situations. I'd be using it as a pump in a zombie situation anyway. These are reliable but still... I used to have a M1 Super 90 for 15 years. Fed and shot everything. But I still always wanted M3 with the pump option.

[Petander]

As always, Mihec's moulds are beautiful! Makes me want one but I have a Lyman 0.678" mould so hard to justify buying a beautiful brass double cavity Mihec mould... wait a minute... I think I need one!

Longbow

I find myself weaker and weaker to resist any mold I like... I mean NEED. I just customs cleared an Ideal 38 Special mold online, I need that mold, The Real Thing, to try a classic "Super Police" 38 Special 200 grain load in a -72 Mod 14. A new mold won't do.

Don't need much reason for NEED these days oh boy...

[Petander]

DHL just interrupted my breakfast. They also called beforehand,twice.

I placed my Mihec order on tuesday at 4 pm. It's friday 11 am now. This is a very good show indeed.

https://i.postimg.cc/4NpdByW5/IMG-20200131-111215-261.jpg

[Petander]

https://i.postimg.cc/wBb8jrN4/IMG-20200131-115927-811.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/Hk98RwMk/IMG-20200131-143758-808.jpg

[RustyReel]

Breakfast at 11?? Eggs and, what is that, cucumbers??

[dverna]

Breakfast at 11?? Eggs and, what is that, cucumbers??

There is not much daylight this time of year in Finland. LOL

[Petander]

Breakfast at 11?? Eggs and, what is that, cucumbers??

Yep I wake up at 6 but only have coffee and water until 10-11. I don't know what that green was but it screamed.

I managed to test shoot some before dark,I had a hard alloy in the pot so these came out a little smaller than pure.

https://i.postimg.cc/G2kSBf0P/IMG-20200131-162401.jpg

Petals survive the trip:

https://i.postimg.cc/CKVr96hf/IMG-20200131-175742-858.jpg

That 35 meter "group" is mostly my bad shooting in the dark. I will bench these of course when the weather permits.

[Petander]

Lubing the gun helped,i fired several five shot strings without problems yesterday.

Inertia...

[longbow]

Looking at your post #14 the wad petals look to be just shy of the top of the ball so when roll crimped it would appear that for the ball to be held tightly by the crimp the petals would have to be pushed back a bit. The crimps look great by the way!

One would figure that the wad petals would suffer at firing... or this "one" would anyway. However, in your post #23 above the petals on recovered wads look pretty much perfect and not mangled/wrinkled in any way. That makes a guy wonder! This guy anyway. Yes, I have experience the same thing and have little explanation. It looks at though the petals are going to do the crimp opening but they show little if any signs of doing so.

Is the hull thick enough that the RB hits the edge and rolls it open? Does gas blow by help? I don't know, I just know that it seems to work.

Great pics by the way!

I've got to get out to the range and shoot some slugs! The snow is melting fast now but we're headed for -12°C in the next few days, not much more snow I hope but colder weather. We hardly had any snow until after new years but then it snowed steady for days... weeks! We had about 3' of snow on the ground in Castlegar and record snow packs in the mountains! The range was a no go. Should be accessible now though.

You've got me all excited about getting out with slugs again!

Longbow

[Petander]

This load came together just like that,by itself. I'm really glad I got the mold "without really needing it". My 20 ball loads use a cork that I press in with a press,that whole step is missing from this 12 load.

K.I.S.S.

I only chose the closest felt wad that I found, I must have dozens of different cork and felt wads because all that little stuff has to be ordered from Italy,is cheap and only the freight costs... so I tend to order all kinds of wads "I might need one day". I do the same with other little things like NOE expanders,I always get extra.

This mold is a delight to cast with.

Winter came here last weekend,got some snow,now we have a cold week and Sun! Haven't seen much Sun for months,impossible to chrono a thing. Can't wait to see the velocity.

[Petander]

Almost got stuck with the car...

Got them chronoed, 1150 fps. Weather is -11°C,no wind,nice Sun.

Feels like spring already.

https://i.postimg.cc/447b7ZgP/IMG-20200204-150556-403.jpg

[Markopolo]

how nice and even those Alders and conifers are spaced? is that something you guys do on purpose??? ours are fighting for inches of space.. looks like somebody went in and thinned them?

[Scoo]

Yep, that's a "managed" spruce forest with some birch in it. Managed as in somewhat more of a forest / tree plantation rather than a fully wild one.

I'm most happy having found this thread, have dabbled a bit in reloading rifle and revolver cartridges but not shotshells (have lurked here for some time). I think something along these lines would be a good start. None of the reloaders I know IRL reload shotshells (the closest is a friend who got a Lee Load all but haven't used it once yet :wink: ) so very happy to find all the tips on this forum and this thread. Still at a loss as to what slug mold to get but will think of putting my late grandfathers roll crimp tools to work (he passed away right before the wall came down and used these to reload shotshells I think in the 1930s-1950s):

[longbow]

Welcome to the forum! And the insanity!

As you have probably read by now, slug loading/shooting is a bit of a mystery as to how to get consistent loading and accuracy mostly due to so many variables in shotshell loading. I also tend to think there is a bit of black magic involved in getting good consistent results!

Of course it also depends on whether you are shooting smoothbore... cylinder bore or choked as well or rifled gun/rifled choke tube. If smoothbore then either round ball or drag stabilized slug is required. In Europe there seems to be a much wider selection of Brenneke or Gualandi style drag stabilized slugs than in North America. Here the Foster was the most common slug until rifled barrels showed up and maybe Fosters are still the most common.

For home casting round ball or Foster slug moulds are common but now the Russian Svarog and similar moulds are available and those use special wads like Gualandi for drag stabilization.

Largely it depends on what gun/barrel you are planning to use and the purpose of the slugs (hunting, target, plinking). Commonly used are the Lee and Lyman wad slug moulds as they are readily available and use standard trap wads so no need for custom wad columns. Round balls that fit into shotcups are also easy to load and give quite good accuracy out to 50m or so from either smoothbore or rifled barrel. From what Petander says, it is hardly worth reloading as factory trap and hunting rounds are cheaper to use with slug subbed for shot.

Personally I like round balls and have had pretty good success with working up some good loads. Petander has done quite well with is round ball for shot subs in both 20 ga. and 12 ga.

Let us know what gun(s) you have and what you want to accomplish slug shooting and I am sure you will get lots of good advice.

Longbow

[Petander]

Welcome,Scoo- I saw your PM and almost dropped my eyes: a Cast Boolit PM in finnish language?

Never happened before.

Anyway I'll get you started with some Mihec RB:s and pellet slugs to experiment with.

[Scoo]

Many thanks for the warm welcome! I shall not hijack this thread any more than I have already have but can state that the urge took hold and I have a Svarog Match (Lyman 525 / diabolo type mold) on its way. This mostly as the kit offer a range of nominal weights that would suit the stock I have and foresee to work with (will get a shotshell reloading press in the future).

Got an italian Fabarm STF12 pump last summer (coincidentally right before it was announced our national police selected these to replace ageing 870P:s), mostly because it comes with interchangeable chokes (improved cylinder by default) and I got a good deal on one (right about the same price as a 590A1 ten years ago here in Finland, sadly we're a small market and the importer who is the sole retailer only carry a small range of models). Have inherited 1950s O/U:s that I've only dared fire #4 buck in apart from birdshot, with the new pump I dare start exploring properly. Usage would be plinking apart from teaching the wife and kids the utility of a shotgun, my personal use would be 3gun and (literally translated) applied reservist shooting which is akin to IPSC but with more emphasis on service weapons and not so much "space guns".

I've also inherited a great deal of 1960s-1970s shotshells (trap & skeet, most is 32g or 1 1/8 oz) of which the older paper hulled ones work like a charm today, the then new plastic hulled ones have caused extraction problems in the pump due to the plastic having become brittle splitting along the length upon firing (not an issue in O/U:s with ejectors), some have started to split even before firing. I suppose I'll re-melt the shot in these and those that are fitted with the then new "Eley monowad" could have the wad put to use.

[Hogtamer]

Welcome and I like your choice of the lyman 525. Petander's Round Ball loads are simple and if the opportunity arises will no doubt be efective on game.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, I'm enjoying your post with great interest, thanks for sharing it.

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots
The American SlugShooting Association
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/Forum4/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=3a4431376998ae49fcc61f2234aa8ca7

[Petander]

I really should get another bottom pourer for pure lead.

But which one? Nobody sells their old Pro Melts...

[Markopolo]

sooooo Mr. Petlander... what sort of machine are you referring to on the roll crimp process?? how about a pic or 2 of the machine and them nice looking crimps???

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, here are the Lee bottom pour ones but I see the prices have all gone up.
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/search?SearchTerm=Lee+bottom+pour+lead+melter

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots
The American SlugShooting Association
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.c...c61f2234aa8ca7

[Petander]

I'm not ready for a Lee pot at this age.

Scoo,my casting and shipping will be delayed,I caught this horrible flu/cold whatever and it's holding tight. Almost like in The Amazonas around 1990,completely out of game. Shaking,heavy joint pain,food goes through... fourth day now.

I have a stent and an a-fib heart condition so this combination is not exactly the most enjoyable. Gotta stay calm.

[Scoo]

Not a problem at all! Got today a parcel (delayed Christmas gift for myself) that contained amongst others an added Lee Load-All 2 and finally a stand for my powder dispenser. No more fiddling about when loading straight walled cases as has been the case with the dispenser tacked onto the press. Take care and get well.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Petander, Praying for your speedy recovery, hope you recover and you need to brisk walk to keep your blood flowing ! !

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Petander]

Scoo, I'm back in business.

Casting pure RB:s tomorrow,tonight will be some 50/50 HP:s.

https://i.postimg.cc/8cgL6qZr/IMG-20200216-140322-290.jpg

[Petander]

Now cooking.

https://i.postimg.cc/FsVm5BzR/IMG-20200218-185613-353.jpg

[Petander]

Scoo,your package is moving.

[Scoo]

I can confirm that a package of lovely looking golden "Mozartkugeln" have arrived :grin: Nowadays there's a tiny bit of daylight as I get home from work during the weekdays so a range report and pictures will follow some time soon I hope

[Petander]

https://i.postimg.cc/d1nqYgqq/IMG-20200228-174222-019.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

Petander: I have been doing something slightly different with round balls than you for some time now.

When I got the snot knocked out of me at a 3 gun shoot by 2 Federal High Based Slugs,,, I immediately developed a Round Ball Load.

It is my standard Trap Load in AA hulls with 18 gr of Green Dot, a Win Primer, and a Claybuster W12AA Wad. I use a 1/4" thick Felt Wad inside the wad as a cushion and then a .662 Ball (425 gr), and then close the Fold Crimp.

These produce usable accuracy out to 50-60 yards and make steel targets ring just like full power slugs do. Except since they are essentially the same payload as my trap loads, the recoil is the same as those which I can shoot hundreds of per day with no after effects. I load these on my DL266 and do everything but drop shot on the press.

The Chicken is at 50M and the three big splotches were the first three shots with this load. I determined that no sight adjustments were needed.

These have worked out well for casual shooting but I don't doubt they would knock down medium sized game easily.

Your loads look good and that Italian Machine makes nice crimps.

Randy

[longbow]

What sort of fit of ball/shotcup to bore do you get Randy?

The only wads I had that made for snug ball/shotcup to bore fit were some CSD wads I had. My 0.662" RB's are a rattle fit in any other wads I've tried. My solution was to cloth patch the RB's into an assembled hull like for a muzzleloader, then crimp the hull. The cloth patch takes up the rattle room and accuracy is very good. It's extra work but with pre-cut patches goes pretty quickly.

This is a load I'd like to try a donut wad in to see if it works as well. Dropping a donut wad into the shotcup before the ball would be quicker. Yet another test I have to get to. I am currently very far behind!

Longbow

[centershot]

Randy, if you're getting groups like that at 50 yards you've got no worries about shooting game at that range! I remember reading one of your posts a couple years ago regarding that load and I have followed suit, substituting Red Dot (cuz I have LOTS of it) for Green Dot. Makes a nice 3 dram load, RB or shot pellets. Knowing what I know today, I believe Green Dot would be a better choice. If I ever run out of Red Dot I'll pick up a keg!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Measured around the ball and wad it is .725. As the felt wad compresses the ball goes down in the wad (tapered Petals) and gets up to around .730. Any choke at all will center it in the bore.

My M500 Tactical Gun has a Vang Comped Barrel which goes from .745 to .730 at the muzzle, the choked portion is in the last 2"

Like I said that level of accuracy is more than adequate for any use I have for it. We all have myriad loads we can use for everything from Doves to Dinosaurs .

I am going to shoot my HD gun at the 3 Gun Shoot tomorrow. I have never patterned that gun so it will be interesting to see where it shoots. It has only a Big Tritium Dot for a front sight. I have been cogitating on a rear sight for it for some time now and if it shoots low with the dot right on top of the receiver I can make it dead on with an open rear sight hanging over the front of the receiver with a tang with two screws D&T'd in the top of the receiver. Still some more thought needed on that idea, but I'm getting closer. I consider Rifle Sights on a shotgun for use with slugs to be a necessity. I lobbied Mossberg hard at the SHOT Show for an 18" bbl with open sights on it but they weren't budging. They have one for the 590 series guns but they won't work on an M500.

Randy

[longbow]

Yeah I guess when you seat that felt wad with your press it probably leaves a depressed center so the ball sits in it and stays pretty well centered. That probably works as well or almost as well as a donut wad would.

I got the 0.678" mould because the 0.662" was a bit small but with Winchester wads even the 0.678" RB is a bit loose and accuracy isn't real good without a paper wrap to snug things up. I still have to get an order in to BPI and 16 ga. felt wads is part of it so I'll have to try that with just a felt wad under the ball. If the wad is concaved/cupped by the press and the ball centers then with a snug crimp that should keep it there and at ignition that felt wad is going to stay like a cup!

Our snow is melting fast now and the range should be accessibly so I'll have to get off my butt and do some shooting. Got lots of slugs loaded and waiting for me.

Longbow

[centershot]

Back when I first started loading RB's I fond that the Remington RP-12 and SP-12 wads would do much the same as what Randy described above. These wads have thick tapered ribs molded into the petals, dump 1/4 tsp. of COW or cornmeal in and add a .662" RB - works great! Only downside is that Remington wads are spooky expensive compared to others......but i you have a bunch collecting dust..............

[longbow]

Back when I was trying to get 0.690" RB's to shoot well I had Remington wads but of course the rib was a detriment for that size RB. I tried them cut down and no success for me. I went smaller and bigger with the RB's ~ 0.662", 0.678" for shotcups (no Remington wads left by then) and 0.735" for naked RB. Gave up om 0.690" RB.

[Hamish]

"I lobbied Mossberg hard at the SHOT Show for an 18" bbl with open sights on it but they weren't budging. They have one for the 590 series guns but they won't work on an M500."

You would think that would be an easy way to sell a boatload of barrels,,,,,,

[Petander]

Thanks for posting,folks.

I will figure out a full power RB load from components too one day.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The Factory Rep I talked to didn't know much about shotguns. When I told him about Vang Comp for the barrel his eyes just went in circles. No idea what I was talking about even when explained with my normal Excruciating Detail with examples.

I asked him to put the idea into the suggestion box which they are supposed to be at the show to gather ideas for, but I doubt he did it.

I saw that open sighted gun one time at a gun shop in Simi CA and I should have bought it on the spot. Went back 2 days later and it was gone. Couldn't even get the model number.

Randy

[Petander]

Bump.

I just measured,these balls are .675 Hi Teked.

[longbow]

I find my 0.678" RB's slightly loose in Winchester wads and Claybuster Win. clones (even looser fit). They cast about 0.003" oversize too.

Might work fine especially with a felt wad under but I usually find best RB accuracy with a snug fit of ball/wad to bore.

Longbow