Embarrassing question

[BrutalAB]

During load development, what do yall do when your first test lands one hit on the target, and your other 3 shots miss the fresh cardboard that measures 34" wide and 40" tall?
Abandon powder?
Abandon boolit?

Its not the gun, i have shot 3/4 inch groups with it before.

[megasupermagnum]

Move closer. I'm not kidding, some loads have changed POI enough that it has missed a target that size.

If that doesn't work, I'll think about the problem and work based on that. Usually an undersized bullet, too slow to stabilize, too fast to fly straight (skidding or out of balance), etc. Leading would be a clue. Shooting over a chronograph would be a clue. Oblong holes on a target would be a clue.

[beshears]

25-20 Single Shot 7.5 gr 4227 1 inch groups, 2400 powder and dacron filler one on target four completely off target.

[nun2kute]

Are you posstive its NOT a one hole group ? I think we need more info on the gun and the boolit.

[Andy45]

One hole group. That'd be my first guess if I were the one shooting! :-o. LOL

[Rcmaveric]

Try again and closer

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[Kraschenbirn]

From a cold barrel, my first 45-70, would throw the first shot (and, sometimes, the second) about 12" high and 2-3" right at 100 yds...no kidding!! Once 'warmed', it would shoot POA until the barrel started to foul. Was probably a bedding issue but I'd acquired the gun as part of a swap and, back then, had no real interest in BPCRs so it went on a buddy's table at the next gun show and out the door with the second guy who picked it up.

I agree with the previous "move closer" suggestions. That first shot you're seeing on the target may be the 'flyer' and the other four nicely group just off the edge of the paper.

Bill

[C.F.Plinker]

What caliber, what is the expected velocity, what distance, and what is the height of the sights above the barrel centerline.

I was sighting in a scope on an AR. At 25 yards the first shot was in the 8 ring. Made the appropriate adjustments and the second shot was a 10. Moved the target out to 100 yards and fired the third shot. Couldn't see it even with a 20x spotting scope. At the next cease fire I went down and found it. It was centered on the target horizontally and just barely cut the top edge of the target.

What was the culprit? The almost 4 inch height of the scope above the barrel. The scope was mounted on the carry handle of an A2 design rifle. Since then my desired point of impact at 25 yards is about half of the sight height below the point of aim. The fourth shot was in the center of the 10 ring.

[gumbo333]

Brutal, what boolits? What size? What rifle? What, what, what? Years ago before I found this site or any forum, I wanted to try shooting cast in my Marlin 30/30 with microgroove. I bought some 165 gr .309 boolits and loaded them fairly mild and bore sighted. Shooting at 50 yards 1 boolit of 10 hit a 24 by 36 inch paper. And they never got any better, no matter what. Later, a friend gave me some 165 gr sized .310. Better but not much. Then a few years later after discovering several forums, including this one, I tried some .311 sized boolits. Made me happy. Very happy! Wished I'd known about slugging a barrel lots earlier. Look up on here how to slug your barrel for size. This forum has some of the best people you will ever find. Ever!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've had the issue a couple times with "new to me" Rifles.
One time was a loose scope rail.
the other time is was a stock putting pressure on the barrel.

So, as others have said, most closer and shoot some more, but you should also give the Rifle a good "look over", maybe have someone else look for problems too. and yes, I read your post were you said "it's not the gun"...I will tell you "Prove it !"

[country gent]

As stated I would check stock bolts and bearing, scope mounts and scope ( its not unusual for a scope to break). Also check your cast bullets size in relation to the bore, A slightly small bullet can strip. Also check velocity pushing a cast bullet to hard or fast can be detrimental to accuracy.
You dont state caliber, bullet,rifle, twist rate, mire information would really be helpful trouble shooting. A cast bullet loaded short in a long throat can be inaccurate also. On some rifles bench technique is very important.

[mjwcaster]

Scope and mounts have caused this issue for me before when sighting in a friends gun.
A real waste of time and ammo.

And I agree with move closer, the one time I was stubborn and refused to move to a shorter range I ended up hanging a 3’ rug as a target.
POI was about two feet low.

I thought I could cheat that time, gun/scope had been zeroed but I had taken the scope/mount off (AK side mount) to fit in a case.

Never thought it would end up that far off.


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[44Blam]

+1 on move closer until you can identify that you can get a group.

I had this happen with my FN49. I was doing several things wrong.
1) I had the boolit seated too deeply.
2) I was pushing the boolit WAY to hard.

The first round or two were fairly good shots and then they started just going EVERYWHERE. Later, I looked at the barrel and it was severely leaded.

So, I seated my boolit out further and slowed it down and the gun is a good shooter.

If there's no lead, your gun may just not like the load. Guns tend to have a "harmonic"... You can always up or down the charge a little. An example of this was my Henry BB in 44 mag. I was loading a 240 grain boolit under W296. At 22 grain, I was getting 2-3" groups at 50 yards. At 23.5 grain, I was getting 1" or less groups. And at 24.5 grain my groups were greater than 4". Also the 22 grain boolits were sooty and the 24.5 grain had flattened / slightly cratered primers.

So if your cases are sooty, you might not be acheiving proper pressure or if you have signs of pressure maybe your over driving the boolit?

[44Blam]

Scope and mounts have caused this issue for me before when sighting in a friends gun.
A real waste of time and ammo.

And I agree with move closer, the one time I was stubborn and refused to move to a shorter range I ended up hanging a 3’ rug as a target.
POI was about two feet low.

I thought I could cheat that time, gun/scope had been zeroed but I had taken the scope/mount off (AK side mount) to fit in a case.

Never thought it would end up that far off.


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Oh, had this happen too. I tried to put a scope on my 1895. The recoil from some heavy loads kept lossening the screws - even with the blue lok-tite.

[BrutalAB]

Gun is a rem 783 in 30/06
Boolit is powder coated and gas checked rcbs 180 fn sized to .309 (alloy was 2 pounds lino, .5 pounds of pewter, 7.5 pounds pure)
Powder is superformance 54 grains if i remember right.

Just checked my log and found where i had tested some superformance with a 200 grain boolit and had some decent groups with it. So i dunno. Guess ill move closer and find out whats going on.

[M-Tecs]

Check for over spinning the bullets. My guess is they aren't making it to the target.

[bmortell]

that's what like 2600fps ? my 30-06 every hardness, PC, GC, PP whatever I try over 2,000fps they just actually group that big. when you go too fast its not subtle about it in my experience

[megasupermagnum]

That's a lot of speed, and potentially an undersized bullet. A closer target should tell you what is going on.

[BrutalAB]

Gonna try 30 yards with same load next time i get to shoot. Also gonna try going down a few grains and trying to get it closer to 2200 fps. I woulda chronoed these today, but battery was dead :(

[Land Owner]

I have had a couple of rifles and their scopes treat me this way too. Once, while working up a 30-30 and its 100 yard load, I watched the scope's reticle spin along its horizontal axis and come to rest with the vertical crosshair in an elliptical plane to the shooter's eye. No longer was the view through the scope a complete circle.

30 yards is a good distance. I shot a 223 caliber AR15 at a 25 yard target, found it, but couldn't find the target at 100 yards because the scope mounts had vibrated loose. After a fix, it became a shooter in the realms past 250 yards. I really like that rifle!

I have had keyholes, but never a complete disintegration of a boolit. This should be interesting to follow.

[charlie b]

I vote for the bullets being pushed too hard. Doesn't take much. For lubed .30 cal bullets a general rule of thumb is 140,000rpm is the 'limit'. This does depend a lot on alloy and your bullet quality, but, if you stay below that you will usually have decent groups. My most accurate groups are between 1800 and 2000fps with cast, both lubed and PC.

With lubed bullets I had 1" groups at 2000fps. At 2200fps they were 6". At 2400fps they were mostly off the paper.

Powder coated they can go a bit faster but work up in steps to see where yours work best.

[Larry Gibson]

With that load pushing probably 2600 +/- fps out of a 10" twist at 197,000 RPM +/_.....definitely above the RPM Threshold of 120-140,000 RPM (not a "limit" but a moveable threshold that, when crossed, accuracy/precision is lost).

[DonMountain]

Gun is a rem 783 in 30/06

I have been working on deer loads for a recently purchased Remington 783 in 308. One of the children purchased this rifle as a package with scope and plastic stock for the two grandchildren to use for deer hunting when they visit. One of the problems I have had is either Remington factory, or my handloads with 150 grain jacketed bullets group the first 3 in about 2", and then they start to drift, like out to a pattern of 12" after the 10th one is shot. I was afraid to try any of my cast bullet 308 loads in it. So, besides driving your cast bullets too fast, there might be additional problems with the gun itself. I have written this one off as a 3-shot deer gun. Not an all-day target rifle. These test firings were all done at about 25 to 35 degrees F.

[Texas by God]

Superformance has a very limited use- pushing jacketed bullets at the highest velocity the cartridge can muster. Change powders and slow the bullet down and I bet your gun will start working right.

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[lar45]

I would try around
26 grains of 5744, work up to 29.5 grains max
26 grains of IMR 4227, work up to 29.0 grains max
25 grains of 4759, work up to 27.0 grains max

Also seat your bullet out until it just engages the rifling.

[BrutalAB]

30 yards and chroned this time.

255676

The group is the 4 on the left.
The marked out one on the bottom was the 100 yard "group"

[sigep1764]

Wow. Are the sights aligned? I know it might sound like a dumb statement. Have you shot this gun before and if so, where were the shots landing on the target? Does it have non standard sights?

Nevermind, I went back and read the first post.

[BrutalAB]

Scope is a cheap 3-9 tasco.

Took 5 deer at 120 to 250 yards this past fall with it using hornady 180 grain sst which is what it is sighted for.

[lar45]

They are just moving way too fast for a standard 10" twist barrel.
Look for a load moving 1800-1900fps, start from there and move up until the groups start getting larger, then back off a little and fine tune from there. That will be the max from that bullet/gun.

[Slugster]

See post #28. Start at lower velocity and work up until accuracy declines, then back off to the last, most accurate load. At least that's the way it works for me. Keep us posted.

[M-Tecs]

Its not the gun, i have shot 3/4 inch groups with it before.

Yes it is the gun/bullet combo. Pushing a cast bullet as fast as you are with the twist your rifle has is not doable.

[BrutalAB]

Thats disappointing. Guess the path is clear. Slow it down.

[lar45]

Or put on a slower twist barrel.
I have a 30-06XCB with a 14 twist barrel, some of the guys are shooting a 16 or 17 twist barrel and have pushed around 2900-3000fps.
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/cblue/cblue-3006xcb-02.jpg

[Patrick L]

You don't specify WHAT you are shooting. Rifle? Handgun? Cast or J word?

I might say abandon the bullet. A few years ago, I got a real education about bullet weight vs twist, this after 30+ years reloading. I had heard about the twist vs bullet weight thing, especially since the military went to heavier bullets and faster twists in the M16 in the 80s. But I didn't pay much attention to it, since I loaded and shot pretty conventional stuff. I sort of assumed "Yeah, I guess the wrong twist/weight means you shoot a 3 or 4 inch group instead of a 1 inch group." Was I wrong!

About 5 or 6 years ago I put together a .223 bolt gun for shooting cast. It shot my boolits pretty well. I was curious about what it would do with a true match grade projectile, so I dusted off a box of Sierra 68gr Matchkings from the old days with my AR Match HBAR. Those were proven tackdrivers.

First shot at 100 yds was right on target, so I proceeded to shoot the next four. There were no other holes on the paper (2' x 2' square.) I suspected a poi issue with the higher velocity of the jacketed loads, so I moved closer, to 50 yards. I shot an 8 inch pattern!!! That 1st shot at 100 was just a lucky hit.

I was befuddled, so I posted here, and some helpful people straightened me out. It turns out my twist was 1:12, great for lighter traditional .223 bullets, but not the heavies, which shot great out of match ARs with 1:9 or 1:7 barrels. I tried plain 55 gr FMJ ball loads and they shot pretty well, so I picked up a box of 53 gr Matchkings. Now we had a tackdriver again!

Sorry that was so long, but the point is, what are you shooting and at what range? Short answer would be test it closer to begin with I guess.

[Patrick L]

Sorry BrutalAB, I missed your second post where you did identify what you were shooting!

[gwpercle]

30-06
RCBS #30-180-FN , size .309
Powder: 2400
starting load - 20.0 grs @ 1843 fps
maximum load - 24.0 grs @ 1986 fps

My pet load "sweet spot" accuracy load is - 21.0 grs of 2400
Fired out of a 1903-A3 Springfield Rifle .

The RCBS boolit is a good one , I have no experience with Superformance powder so don't know of it's virtues .
Velocity...stay between 1800 and 1900 fps to begin with and see if accuracy is acceptable.

IMR 3031 , IMR 4895 and Varget would be other tried and true powders to work with .
Gary

[BrutalAB]

Got to do a little shooting at the 100 yard mark today. Decided to load up and test 20 grains of 2400, got a 2 inch group out of it.
Not the best but its definitly a start.
Will other magnum pistol powders work for this as well? I have lots of aa#9, blue dot, imr blue, and aa 1680. Only one pound of 2400 is why i ask.

[megasupermagnum]

Not AA#9. I wouldn't mess with that. Bluedot and AA 1680 work very well. Bluedot is just like 2400, just a little faster. 1680 is more like IMR 4227, and may work better with a filler. Larry would be the one to know. It's likely IMR blue would work, but I have never seen anyone that has every shot it in a rifle.

[BrutalAB]

Any particular reason why #9 wouldnt work this way? Dont mean to be buggy, just like to know the why behind things, id rather save my #9 for my 357 mag loads anyways.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm won't say it wont work, as I have not tried it. Being a ball powder, it doesn't seem appropriate for such a low density loading. It's the same reason you won't see H110 used for rifle.

[BrutalAB]

Or put on a slower twist barrel.
I have a 30-06XCB with a 14 twist barrel, some of the guys are shooting a 16 or 17 twist barrel and have pushed around 2900-3000fps.
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/cblue/cblue-3006xcb-02.jpg

This thread and shooting yesterday got me thinking (dangerous i know)

But i started thinking, what if the traditional max speed for cast boolits is due more to this rpm max with high speed twist rates (production rifles intended for jacketed bullets) rather than a true max velocity achieved with a slower twist.

Then i noticed your group was shot with boolits with lube rather than powder coat.

Without having looked into it more, i expect this to explain why some cartridges are more "cast friendly" than others. ... cause production rifles use slower twist rates.