Improving hard cast blood trail?

[Wolfmanjack]

So I’ve taken 4 deer in the past two years with my 45-70 and hard cast boolits. The bullet is cast from an accurate 46-350L mold. It drops a 353 gr wheel weight water cooled bullet. Two of the four deer have dropped on the spot with shoulder shots. The other two made it about 30-40 yards a piece with the same shoulder shots. Not the high shoulder shot mind you I’m talking about getting bone and lungs. The two that did make it a little ways had zero blood trail. Now I haven’t actually needed a blood trail on these 4 examples but it does make me nervous.

So my load is 12 grains of tight group and I’m assuming somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 FPS. The bullet blows straight through a deer with basically no expansion. Now accuracy with the hard cast slug is great out to 125 yards. Change that bullet to air cooled and the accuracy goes to hell.

My fear is that I’m am going to one day make a rear lung shot and not be able to find the deer secondary to a non existent blood trail. I’m thinking about try to make a pure lead nosed with the back half of wheel weights. If I water quench the bullet the nose should theoretically stay soft? And will this soft nose bullet get expansion at such a modest velocity. Lastly will the soft nosed bullet give a decent blood trail theoretically?

[richhodg66]

Pure lead will expand well at that velocity.

I don't think you need a bullet that hard to get good accuracy at 1200 FPS, and I would think 50/50 WW to pure would work great. What are you sizing your bullets to?

[Wolfmanjack]

Sized to .460, I started with the lee 405 gr bullet and I could only get it to shoot well water quenched and with the same tight group load. Softer lead alloys or even air cooled just not shooting well. The lee bullet was surprisingly accurate out past 200 yards with a rainbow trajectory.

[country gent]

Several was to go about getting expansion from the big slow bullets. The first is to paper patch a pure lead slug or one 1-20 to 1-30 tin lead. I have recovered a few of my 525 paper patched bullets from a damp sand back stop 200 yds away. They retained 95% weight and had a nice curled mushroom just under an inch in dia.. There was a caliber ring in the base about 1/8"long.
Next if you really feel you need the hard base you can cast a 2 alloy bullet in your mould. this requires some work, 2 pots and a fast hand.
Make a measured ladle the only hold enough lead to fill the nose just under the base. I use a case with the primer still in and cut to a 45* angle on mouth when held level the low portion sets the amount of lead. A fired 308 case with primer left in works well for 45 nose the case can be cut close to nose length and it will be close so a file can be used to finish it. A heavy steel wire can be used for the handle 2 -3 wraps around case body so its good and tight the 3rd in the extractor groove holds it in place a file handle or dowel can be used for the handle 5-8" long. Next is 2 small pots one for the hard alloy and one for the pure lead. Preheat the mould pour the nose with the measured ladle then pour the base with a regular ladle over filling and letting extra run back in the pot, You want to keep hot as ling as possible for the best bond. Some set on a burner to remelt in the mould. I run hot on the lead around 750-775* then about normal with the harder.

[chsparkman]

In my experience, when the deer is shot high, it takes a more than a few yards before a blood trail appears. It seems the body cavity has to fill to the height of the wounds before the blood starts coming out. Just my experience.

[JWFilips]

Switch to soft cast Wont have to tract them 40 yards max with a good shot

[dkf]

Cut the COWW with at least half pure lead and air cool. Should get a bigger hole on the exit.

[Tripplebeards]

I switched to 16:1 pure lead and pewter mix with a BH of 7.5 in a HP cast At 1600 FPS this past season but never had a change to find out how big of an exit it would make. My Ruger 77/44 shoots sub MOA at 100 yards with the load PC’d and GC’d. I tried a 15.4 BH boolit the season before on three deer. One dropped the other two made it over a 100 yards and started a very sparse blood trail after forty plus yards. I found that the hard hp boolits never expanded. I was pushing them at 1750 ft./s. Guess I’ll have to wait till next year to find out. I’m gonna cast up some pure hollow points for my muzzleloader and put them in Sabots as well along with 150gr of triple 7 pellets.

Id tell you to shoot the softest alloy possible that will still give good accuracy.

[bmortell]

try making some with ~150gr of pure for the nose and WW behind it, quench and everything normal from there. and compare accuracy with paper patching if you wanna try that as also mentioned. if you can just shoot a row of water jugs at 50yds or avg hunting distance and see if pure expands if not up the speed a bit

[bmortell]

might also be helpful to load and then pull one of the soft ones you said shoot poorly and also recover one in water and see if theres signs of why its shooting bad

[sixshot]

Tripplebeards nailed it, that is, shoot an alloy that is as soft as you can & still maintain good accuracy, why would you do it any other way? Or, shoot a soft nose cast as mentioned, that's how I took my Idaho bull moose with my Ruger SRH 480 a few years back. I poured a pure lead nose with a WW rear & shot the bull offhand at 45 yds through both lungs. He went maybe 40 yds pumping blood like a water truck, down in 7-8 seconds. Bullet was a 370 gr soft nose LBT.

Dick

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Try a slower powder to give the softer boolit a gentler start. Might need Dacron filler depending on the powder. Powdercoating may help as well.

[richhodg66]

Try a slower powder to give the softer boolit a gentler start. Might need Dacron filler depending on the powder. Powdercoating may help as well.

I have very , very limited experience with Tight Group, but I haven't seen much about it's use as a reduced cast bullet powder in rifles. I think you'd be better served with some 5744, or even just some 2400 or Unique.

[Ateam]

As others have said, hard to get more blood without a bigger hole, soft points might do that but sure take a lot of work. Your other options are; aim lower so the blood can drain out of the cavity (think heart shot), CNS shot for DRT, drive the projectile faster to do more damage, and finally but probably most effectively become a better tracker. All the fiddling in the loading room is fun, but if the goal is really to recover more deer and not another reason to fiddle around, improving your tracking skills will serve you well.

[T-Bird]

I agree with the slower powder. As I was reading this thread I was thinking "he needs slower powder". Tightgroup is a fast pistol powder, I wouldn't use it in 45/70. I use 4198 with dacron for my slower loads and get great accuracy with 20-1 or coww. My boolit is the 330 Gould and I'm running it about 1350 fps.

[kens]

you mention you are water dropping WW.
that is too hard an alloy for your velocity

[Cast_outlaw]

Well if your set on duplex boolits then just make sure you preheat the mold befor each pour with the soft tips in so you get a bond I did it the other day and they are stuck together but not bonded

[skeettx]

Congratulations on getting the deer :)

Yes, accuracy and confidence is IMPORTANT!

Softer bullet, air cooled, sized/lubed to a larger diameter, as big as will fit the chamber.
Should do the trick
Mike

[725]

I'm with the majority opinion outlined above. No need to water drop. Use a softer alloy. Paper patching is neat and has great benefits. In a hot mold drop a 00 buck of pure lead and follow with a pour of a softer alloy really hot. However you do it, just find something softer.

[Springfield]

Funny no one asked what diameter his bullet is compared to his slugged bore.

[Tripplebeards]

Here’s some testing I did when I started out two years ago. It was my second gun I tested with cast.

I learned how to make an accurate cast bullet, crimp style, and make my gun accurate for cast...


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?365538-More-testing-with-my-ruger-77-44-and-the-Lyman-devastator

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?362842-More-testing-with-the-Lyman-devistator-and-my-ruger-77-44

And my results on three deer the season before last with too hard of cast like yours....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!


Take in Account I only tried this on three deer and it’s the only three deer I’ve ever shot with cast so far. Next year I’ll make sure to connect with my soft 16:1 alloy if and when I see a test deer.

I was all worried about my 16 to 1 alloy figuring it was too soft and too shallow of a penetration stopping in three water jugs. I learned water testing cast bullets is fun but it’s nowhere near the same as shooting through an animal as the 8020 with 15% pewter that looked perfect didn’t even expand on the deer I shot as you can see the exit holes in the Hides I posted. Which explains why they ran with no kinetic energy transfer. It was like poking a hole through them with an arrow. If I would’ve hit the bone like I did with the third one in my post I’m sure they would all have dropped because of the bone fragments going in every direction like a shattered, expanded bullet would have.

Here’s a picture of my 16 to 1 at 1600 FPS Lyman devastator that I recovered from the dirt back stop at 25 yards last summer. It looks quite a bit different than the water retained cast bullet I recovered.

https://i.imgur.com/peQgVov.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tUnpACV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yaDmlG6.jpg

You can see the petals flowed very good and stayed together with all the tin content in it.

And here’s the goofy water test I did that made it look like a flat penny that made me doubt using it.

https://i.imgur.com/voYsBiZ.jpg



My boolit weighed 184 grains recovered from the dirt at 25 yards. I believe it weighed 131 grains from water if I remember. Anyways shooting water is almost like shooting a brick wall imo.

[rockrat]

Why not use the 50/50 WW to stick-on(pure lead?) and air cool them, then powdercoat. Unless the powdercoat retards expansion (does it?)

[gumbo333]

I'll bet wolfmanjack got the Titegroup data from the GMDR site where they show data from 900 fps to 1155 fps with very good accuracy. Think they tested with Oregon Trail boolits at 15 - 16 hardness. Hope he chimes back in. I've tried Titegroup with 405 gr .459 coated boolits. Not bad but I had better accuracy with Bluedot and Reddot, then Unique. 4198 was pretty good also but with more kick. All easily minute of whitetail.

[richhodg66]

Well if your set on duplex boolits then just make sure you preheat the mold befor each pour with the soft tips in so you get a bond I did it the other day and they are stuck together but not bonded

There's a great thread in the stickies that tells how to make perfect bullets with this method. Slow and tedious, but you only need a few.

[Beaverhunter2]

There's a great thread in the stickies that tells how to make perfect bullets with this method. Slow and tedious, but you only need a few.

Exactly. My 24F .30-30 likes the Lee 309-170FN PC'ed. I'm planning on AC COWW for practice and 45gr. of pure up front COWW in back. I made 10. I'll test with a few to confirm a consistent zero (you'd think I'm from Missouri- not Alabama and Michigan) and have a handful to get me through the next 5 deer seasons! :bigsmyl2:

Be safe out there!

John

[bmortell]

however its done you just need to make sure the second metal isn't getting poured onto an oxidized surface film or you might get something that don't pass a smash test, like I tried a few pellet gun pellets melted in the nose and that comes off pretty easy. then once you have a clean bond surface if you want to be sure its melted together just let the sprue cool then set the bottom of the mold in the pot for a few seconds till the sprue melts again, then you know they were liquid together and froze together. if you can be assured of those 2 things it should go well

[beltfed]

Wolfmanjack,
Please tell us what 45-70 rifle you are using
It can make a difference in how you can load it.
beltfed/arnie

[Wolfmanjack]

Rifle is a cva scout v2. I did get the reloading data from the GMDR site. I had tightgroup on hand for some 9mm I reload. Powder acquisition is an issue in my area so I haven’t been able try many different powders. I have tried Allianz reloader 7 with less than stellar results. The tightgroup load is very accurate with the hard cast. I have no doubts that my combo is lethal and maybe I shouldn’t mess with success. I do enjoy tinkering and I’m very interested in the duplex I.e. soft nosed cast bullet. I guess my main concern is will the front half of my bullet remain soft(pure lead) if I water quench it(so the back half is hard to maintain accuracy). I have shot some stick on wheel weight bullets loaded with black powder out of this gun and get some very big mushrooms with the Lee 405 grain bullet.

[Wolfmanjack]

Also what ratio of pure lead would be recommended for this 350 gr bullet if I duplex it?

[gumbo333]

Wolfmanjack have you tried hollow pointing what you have that does shoot good?

[centershot]

I agree with using a slower powder, in the 1200 fps range Unique or Universal would be my first choice.

If powder acquisition is a problem, cast up a few softpoints and use them for hunting. Use your COWW boolits for practice, they'll both fly to the same POA. Here's how I make mine:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?53234-BruceB-s-Cast-Softpoints-(as-of-MAY-2009)

[country gent]

In one of the old NRA manuals was a technique for splitting the bullet nose to aid expansion. A thin sheet of paper was placed in the mould between the blocks and they were closed on it, The mould filled and the bullet had a split nose. How they shoot and perform I don't know having never tried it. The draw back would be cutting the paper "splitters" to a uniform size, so they could easily be set in the blocks accurately

[Hickok]

I have been using a Rage 2 blade mechanical broadhead for the last several years in bow season. This head open up to cut a 2 inch slice in a deer. It opens immediately, cutting 2 inches all the way through a deer. Imagine driving a sword with a 2 inch wide blade completely through the animal, then you get the idea of what this arrow head does.

Still when shooting deer from a ground blind, with the arrow striking at a horizontal level, it will take between 30 to 40 yards to find the first drop of blood. (From a elevated position in a tree stand, the blood trail is immediate, because the arrow come out low in the body, and the blood immediately pours out.)

These Rage heads, as well as Grim Reaper heads I have used, cut monstrous wound channels through deer. Yet, on a horizontal pass-through, the blood trail usually takes 30-40 yards to show up, as the body cavity has to fill with blood, before it can spill out of the wound. At times, wounded deer will "blow" blood out of the mouth and nose, leaving a blood trail.

I have had the same results with cast boolits in .44 mag, and .45 Colt. Even using .308 Win. and 7mm mag with jacketed bullets, deer seldom drop on the spot, and the blood trail starts after 30-40 yards after impact.

Softer alloy will help, but an "immediate" blood trail does not always happen.

[GregLaROCHE]

When I was a kid, we used to cut crosses on the tips of 22s when hunting rabbits. Wonder if something like that could work?
From a realistic point of view, a pure lead heavy hollow point, powder coated, I think would give the best expansion without the risk of leading. Almost all jacketed hunting bullets use pure lead inside the jacket. Maybe there’s something I haven’t heard, but I don’t think PCed boolits of pure lead have leaded any barrels.

[bmortell]

pure or lead tin wont get hard from water dropping or heat treating, and for amount probably up to the first driving band, so the whole nose portion. might be able to have more if the front band is ok with being pure and don't cause you any problems.

[444ttd]

I agree with using a slower powder, in the 1200 fps range Unique or Universal would be my first choice.

If powder acquisition is a problem, cast up a few softpoints and use them for hunting. Use your COWW boolits for practice, they'll both fly to the same POA. Here's how I make mine:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?53234-BruceB-s-Cast-Softpoints-(as-of-MAY-2009)

this is right. i shot a 45-70 in 405gr fbfn(16 lead/1 tin) in trail boss in my handi rifle. it was about 1000fps+/-, i think. the 405gr did not expand at 20 yards. it was shot into snow bank(3 shots, all were taken at about 2 1/2' in). i shoot alliant 2400 in mine. its velocity is about 1300fps, i never checked the chrony.

[oconeedan]

In my experience, when the deer is shot high, it takes a more than a few yards before a blood trail appears. It seems the body cavity has to fill to the height of the wounds before the blood starts coming out. Just my experience.

I agree with this. And another note, shoulder shots may not bleed as well as lung shots. Low lung shots usually leak faster, but as you noted, shoulder shots usually drop them faster.

[Tripplebeards]

I have been using a Rage 2 blade mechanical broadhead for the last several years in bow season. This head open up to cut a 2 inch slice in a deer. It opens immediately, cutting 2 inches all the way through a deer. Imagine driving a sword with a 2 inch wide blade completely through the animal, then you get the idea of what this arrow head does.

Still when shooting deer from a ground blind, with the arrow striking at a horizontal level, it will take between 30 to 40 yards to find the first drop of blood. (From a elevated position in a tree stand, the blood trail is immediate, because the arrow come out low in the body, and the blood immediately pours out.)

These Rage heads, as well as Grim Reaper heads I have used, cut monstrous wound channels through deer. Yet, on a horizontal pass-through, the blood trail usually takes 30-40 yards to show up, as the body cavity has to fill with blood, before it can spill out of the wound. At times, wounded deer will "blow" blood out of the mouth and nose, leaving a blood trail.

I have had the same results with cast boolits in .44 mag, and .45 Colt. Even using .308 Win. and 7mm mag with jacketed bullets, deer seldom drop on the spot, and the blood trail starts after 30-40 yards after impact.

Softer alloy will help, but an "immediate" blood trail does not always happen.


Hickok...

I switched back to rage hypodermics this past year but never saw a head mounter to test it on. When rage first came out they never had instructions in them telling not to line the blades up with the cuts in the plastic rings... So guess whst?, I lined them up and shot two deer in a row and they never opened up but luckily both deer I are owed were heart and lung shots and went 40 and 45 yards and fell over within feet of each other. I actually had a blood trail going over the first dead deer as the other one tripped over it on the trail running away. I called rage that year and have a conversation with them and was told not to line the blades up with the shock collar slits like I did and they came out with directions the next Year saying so. Here’s a big buck I shot with the non opening rages that day.

https://i.imgur.com/Y58F74v.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lhLYowC.jpg

My buddies did the same thing that year but I shot a few deer first and gave them the education and they’ve never had a problem sons with great big slits and big blood trails. I was mad and went and got some Grim Reaper Whitetail specials the next year. I shot two deer with my crossbow with them. The first deer the arrow never exited so I had zero blood trail but it only went 20 yards and fell over. The second one was a buck that was quartering away from me in the broad had opened up in flight and deflected off the side of the deer in poked underneath that shoulder and fell out. I trailed that thing over 500 yards and found it believe it or not. It had one slit that went through all the ribs like a machete and sliced one of the lungs! It’s still killed the deer but I never use those again either.

https://i.imgur.com/rRE59oI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4cgRZRo.jpg

I have to say it was one of the most exciting tracking jobs ever. You can see it’s laying by my creek. That deer actually zigzag down the side of my ridge, cross the blacktop road, down into my creek, and then it walked a block down the creek in the water! I almost gave up looking for the blood trail and I zigzagged on the other side of the creek which is not my property and finally found blood going up into the grass. I found my deer about 150 yards away laying in head tall grass. I couldn’t believe I found that deer! He wasnt a monster, but boy it was fun and frustrating trail. I was pretty proud of myself finding that deer. Thats longest tracking job I’ve ever done and found a dead animal. You can see if the angle it was standing I was aiming for the leg on the other side for an exit. The deer was less than 20 yards away from me either and I was in a tree stand 15 feet high and arrow somehow instead of hitting at an angle deflected and went across the whole side of the deer. My favorite expandable broadheads for the Rocky Mountain gator 100s with a chisel tips back in the 80s, 99% of the deer I shot with a good shot that is, I could watch them drop within sight. Then they changed to a cut on contact tip that turned it into a defective folding piece of aluminum if I hit bone. I shot dozens a big bucks with those broadheads until they discontinued them it’s been downhill ever since hopefully Rage is the answer. Those gator 100s made such large bloods trails that a blind man could follow! I had blood trails at times 10 to 12 feet wide... Not like you needed them because the deer always went down within sight when the trails looked like that. It literally made it look like a horror show.


The OP mentioned that he was shooting pure lead with black powder loads in is 4570 making large mushrooms. If it were me I’d be shooting that!

[GregLaROCHE]

When I was expressly hunting, I used my scoped 30.06 with jacketed 180 gn core locks. Just wondering if they make core locks in .45/70.

[Tripplebeards]

When I was expressly hunting, I used my scoped 30.06 with jacketed 180 gn core locks. Just wondering if they make core locks in .45/70.

I know this is a castboolit forum but that is my go to bullet in my 30-06! It’s the hammer of Thor. Sorry Castbooliteers.lol. I actually have two bags of 100 180 grain Corelocts I reload. My dad used to buy me boxes of the old Remington‘s in those when I was a kid and I’ve always stuck with them because it’s my old faithful.

[beltfed]

Simple answer for hard cast FP bullets:
Shoot them thru both shoulder blades.
They drop on the spot, and minimal meat damage
Has worked repeatedly for me.
For 45-70 M86, 385grGC FP 9+1coww/lino/ 1740fps
For 358Win, 250gr Lyman 358318,9+1coww/lino/ Paper Patched, 2350fps
Otherwise, for heart/lung shots most they go is 100yds, leaving good blood trail.
beltfed/arnie

[Texas by God]

If they are close enough and standing still, shoot them in the neck. Game over with a lot smaller calibers than .45 in my experience.

[country gent]

For my hunting it was the 180 grn nosler partition in my 300 win mag. Always effective and left a solid trail. But I never recovered a bullet. In cast I used a heavy for caliber bullet in a larger dia and let that do the work. The 45-70 with a heavy blunt bullet placed in the correct spot always worked for me. The energy dump is tremendous. A lyman 510 grn govt round nose cast from 20-1 around 1200fps just plain works. About the only bullets I have recovered have been round balls from my 50 TC renegade. These were cast from 50-1 ( just enough tin to aid fill out) When recovered from deer they were almost inside out from expansion. Not a the big increase in dia like a bullets mushroom.

Shot placement is most important then comes the rest. Another thing I have noticed over the yars the Skinny deer with little to no fat layer leave a much better blood trail than the corn fed big deer with the fat layer sealing up holes. AN 250-280 lb corn fed deer just dosnt leave a big blood trail, holes tend to seal up if vital areas arnt hit solid.

[BamaDan]

In my experience, when the deer is shot high, it takes a more than a few yards before a blood trail appears. It seems the body cavity has to fill to the height of the wounds before the blood starts coming out. Just my experience.

Similar to Pistol or Archery kills. Even on pass thru shots with mechanical arrow heads shot with a cross bow... You sometimes have to wait for the blood to fill up to the entrance hole of the arrow or bullet to get much blood. It's much easier if you are shooting down at an angle and have a pass thru shot.
Recovery is easier if you watch the Deer after the shot. If it does what I call a Mule Kick it's usually a fatal shot. I watch to see what the Deer does, and where it goes into tight cover. I generally watch, then wait 20 to 30 minutes before I start to trail the Deer. Funny thing is that sometimes a Dead Deer may cover 100 to 150 yards before it stops.

[GLynn41]

I have read most of this thread, but might have missed this being already mentioned... heart shots bleed right then... the deer run a bit though at least for me
hitting the arteries above the heart bleed right then,
Hitting about 2/3 up a broad side deer will normally drop them so fast they do not disturb the other deer
all in my experience of course. If this has been mentioned sorry.