44-77 sharps?

[R-71]

Back be fore Christmas I picked up an older Shiloh 44-77. What Diameter would PP slick should I use?
What size is the shell holder

[smithnframe]

Good lookin Sharps!

[Don McDowell]

I prefer 434 or 435 diameter bullets wrapped in 8 lb paper.
I also prefer to keep the length of the bullet to no longer than 1.3 inches.
You can get by with using a Lee 43 mauser size die for sizing the cases for paper patch bullets, and that shell holder fits Jamison 44-77 cases. If you're using cases formed from other cartridges such as the 348 winchester, or 50-110 winchester, then use the shell holder for either of those.

[R-71]

Thanks Don!

I bought a box of loaded ammo from BACO, $$$!

I shot this group at 100 yards using the barrel sights.

255228

[Don McDowell]

That doesn't look to bad for commercial ammo. The 44-77 is a pretty easy cartridge to deal with. If you go the grease groove route my Shiloh's like the bullet at .448 diameter.

[R-71]

That doesn't look to bad for commercial ammo. The 44-77 is a pretty easy cartridge to deal with. If you go the grease groove route my Shiloh's like the bullet at .448 diameter.

Thanks for the info, The only loaded ammo they had was GG. I'll be using PP bullets once I have some more cases to load. Compared to my 50 2.5 the 44-77 is a pussycat.

[Don McDowell]

The 44 is definitely easy on the shoulder, even when whipping a 480 gr bullet down range at 1300 fps or so. Really pleasant with the 410 gr, or 1.1 inch long patched bullets.

[sac]

Not to HI-Jack this thread, but I am thinking of having a new Shiloh in 44-77 and not finding any brass for it. I was wondering if a guy could use the other brass listed by BACO?

Thanks Scott

[Don McDowell]

Baco makes occasional runs of 44-77 brass from 50-110 and 348 brass.

[R-71]

From what I have been reading it looks like each rifle manufacturer uses a different rim thickness so you have to order the correct brass for your rifle.

I put my name on the back order list at BACO for the brass.

[Distant Thunder]

R-71,

Yes, rim thickness varies quite a bit, but thick rims can be turned thinner if you have a lathe or know someone that does. To do it right you should remove the excess material from the surface at the case head, frontside. Once set up properly it doesn't take long to turn a bunch of brass to the correct thickness.

If you remove the material from the backside, the head stamped side, you end up reducing the primer pocket depth and that can be just trading one problem for another.

Also, it is a bottleneck case and as such it can be head spaced off the shoulder if fireformed correctly and that would allow the use of undersize rims if need be.

There are a number of ways around the problems of brass with the .44-77 it just comes down to how much you want that chamber and what you're willing to weather to get there, how much work you're willing to invest. For me it has been a rough and rocky road and I seem to be a long way from having my .44-77, but I will not be deterred this time.

I can offer more ways to make the brass problem less of a problem for the .44-77, but it depends on what resources you have available to you.

The .44-77 is arguably the coolest of the Sharps cartridges, especially with paper patch bullets. It is historically significant too, both on the target range and the western plains. It is a truly obsolete cartridge with no SAAMI specs and no parent case to be made from. I suspect that the .45-70 is the reason for that. Being the .45-70 was the government round of the day and a very fine cartridge in its own right it was much easier for that family of cartridges to survive with less baggage into modern day. Still the .44-77 is not dead, it just takes more effort to get one up and running. Most shooters are not interested in making the effort, which is a shame really, it is a fine cartridge that deserves to be kept alive. But you have to want it and if you do, go for it.

[Don McDowell]

DT I suspect you're correct about the 45 US being a major cause of the demise of the 44, but I also am prone to think that the other major cause was the introduction and rapid acceptance of smokeless powder, that big ol case just doesn't lend it's self well to white powder propellants. Also the rapid rise in popularity of light weight and flat shooting 30 caliber rifles, that even caused the relative death of the 45 US until it's resurgence in the late 1970's... It is interesting to note that as late as the 1916 Winchester catalog 44-77 cartridges were still available..

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

You are absolutely correct that smokeless caused the death of these many fine BP cartridges and smokeless gave the small bores life. Many of the BP cartridges fell into obsolescence with only a few of the smaller capacity cases able to make at least somewhat of a transition into the white powder era. Then when the interest began to rekindle in these old single shot rifles the cartridges that shared the head size of the .45 Government, and there are a lot of those, found a much easier path back from the grave. The .44 bottlenecks did not have that advantage and even though the .44-77 and .44-90 are excellent cartridges they have not enjoyed the popularity they deserve as a result.

It is good that at least a few shooters, like you and Kurt and a few others, have made the effort to keep them alive. We can't over look that Shiloh continues to provide the fine rifles in .44-77 (& .44-90) that they do and what that has done for the .44s. When I talked to Kirk about their 19-twist .44s he of course answered as a businessman and mentioned the cost of adding a faster twist.

Ideally a man would have one of each, a 19-twist because it's close to the originals and a 17-twist in order to be better able to compete against the .45s. I'll start working on my 19-twist as soon as I get my 17-twist in hand and working!

[Don McDowell]

DT, I have come to the conclusion that basically the 17 twist is best applied to the 44-90 rem straight, with two rifles so chambered it's quite easy to see why it was so popular back in the day.
I fully believe that keeping bullet length to 1.3 maximum in the 19 twist Shiloh's it is fully competitive to 1000 yards. I discovered that length when sitting here at the desk wondering what exactly was the problem with longer bullets, when I looked up and saw a line of bullets, mostly grease groove 45's, but a single pulled bullet from a 44-77 original creedmoor round just jumped out at me.. Taking it to the calipers, and scale, what do you know, the thing is 1.3 inches long, and weighs in at 460 grains.. It's diameter is .438, which is just a bit large to fit down the muzzle of my Shiloh's but a quick letter with check enclosed to Mr. Brooks and back came a slick at 1.29 .435 diameter..and it preformed well at Raton. I have another Shiloh on order that hopefully on the off chance things work out to go to the Creedmoor 150 on the big anniversary date should fit right close to rifles of the time period. :)
On another side note, in eastern Montana in one of the local county museums there's a really nice sharps that the original owner had at the Battle of Stoneyville, the card discription below it says that the day after the fight he took the rifle to the store in Mill Iron and traded it for an 86 winchester (which is in the same display) because he decided it was a bunch better to have a lighter rifle that held more than one shot at a time. LOL

[Lead pot]

Jim,
I'm glad I had the foresight when Bell still made the .44/3-1/4 basic brass fo get several hundred and also picked up more .44-77 and .44-90 from Jamison.
I have two .44-90 bn's and one .44-77 with another coming soon in twists 16, 17 and 19 and the 19 does not take the back seat to the others as far as accuracy. Yes with the slower twist you have to adjust the bullet length a slight bit for the .44-77 but the .44-2-5/8/90 BN will shoot the longer bullets I use for the 17 and 16 twist.
The .44 BN chambers get a lot of bad rep from shooters that don't have or even shot them.
I think if more shooters would drop a line or call Starline to make cases for these calibers they just might making some.

I think the large bore .45's started to loose favor when the .30-40 Kraig came around in the late 1800's just like the .222 and the .22-250 lost favor over the .223 because of the bulk brass and factory rounds available.

[Don McDowell]

DT on another note , in preperation for going to the Phoenix shootlpalooza, I came across a flat of 50 of those Brooks bullets already wrapped and ready to go. If you want them I could bring them to Lodi in May.

[Lead pot]

Are we going to have at least 3 maybe 4 .44-77 shooters at Lodi this year? :)

[Don McDowell]

I'll be shooting my 44-90, and my 77 in 45-90.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

Yes bring those bullets please!

I had a .44-100 Remington with an 18-twist barrel and I could shoot a bullet up to about 485 grains well out to 600 and probably 800 yards. It was quite accurate at those ranges, but I never had it working out at 1000. Could have been the rifle or it could have been just me. I feel I will be much happier with a 17-twist in my first .44-77. With any luck at all I'll be able to run a 17 and a 19-twist side by side some day and decide which I like best. That day could be a ways off.

Kurt,

I don't plan to be shooting a .44-77 at Lodi in May, but it could happen if everything fell in line. I doubt that if will. I'd have to have my .44-77 shooting very well and I don't even have the rifle yet, heck, I don't even have a .44 caliber barrel to put on my rifle yet. So it is unlikely.

My hope would be to have it ready for the fall Lodi match. All of that is just wishful thinking at this point, we'll see how it all comes together once I have my rifle and do some shooting. It will take me a month to get ready for load development once I have the back from Shiloh. Then I'll need time figure things out and get enough load development done so I can at least hit a barn with it.

[Don McDowell]

DT I'll bring those along. I'm running the .434470 bullet cast from 16-1 and wrapped in 7 lb paper in the 44-2.4. Haven't choreographed it but I suspect it'll beat 1300 by a good bit.. But at any rate the amount of vertical that will hold at 1000 is simply amazingly small. At Byers when we could keep a cross wind with no nasty little head wind tail wind switches, it never left the 9-3 oclock line, sadly the wind was pulsing just enough that the x ring was scarce but most of the bullet strikes came back marked at x ring level.

[sac]

Thanks guys for a very informative thread. I'm only going to be able to oder on rifle made the way I want, so what would be the better caliber 44-77 or 44-90 for buffalo/gong shoot and might be interested in going to Lodi and the Q. I do have Pedersoli in 45-90 that I used for the buffalo matches in Iowa at the NCOWS nationals.
I'm leaning towards a Hartford, but don't know If I need but do want a 14 lb rifle for either cartridge. I know Don said elsware that it is not needed till you get north of 90gr.

Again not meaning to Hijack but there is alot of good info.

Thanks Scott

[Don McDowell]

If you're ordering a Shiloh, they only offer the bottleneck 44's, of the 2 the 44-77 is the better option in my opinion. The Hartford is a nice rifle, but for serious shooting from prone, the #1, roughrider or LRE would be a better choice. The 30 inch heavy barrel is plenty good. Both my #3 and roughrider in 44-77 with 30 inch heavy barrels come in at 12 lbs. The #1 I have on order will have a 32 inch standard weight barrel.
Your pedersoli might be a good candidate to have rebarreled and chambered to one of the 44 straight cartridges after the Shiloh gets delivered.

[Lead pot]

Jim,
It won't take a month to get that rifle going. I would be willing to say after the first ladder load outing and one follow up of the best load with one below and the other above the best you will know what to use.

[Bent Ramrod]

If you use paper patch boolits, it’s no problem getting 90 gr of OE 1F into a Buffalo Arms .44-77 case. That, IMHO, should be plenty enough.

Easier (if “easier” can be used in a severe oddball-case drought) to get or make cases, also.

[Distant Thunder]

I would be happier with 85 grains, if that isn't enough then more isn't necessarily going to make it better. I don't know OE, but 85 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss will get you about 1350-ish fps with a 520 grain bullet and for me that was as good as it gets. I am speaking about Creedmoor matches here and I like 1300 fps to about 1350 for 1000 yards. That velocity range has worked out very well for me over the last 18 years.

I've loaded as much as 105 grains in my .45-90 with PPB for around 1400 fps, but I can't say that 105 grains was any better than the 83 I use in my .45-70 even through it was 100 fps faster.

It will be interesting to see what I end up with in my .44-77, but that is still along ways off it seems.

[Don McDowell]

In my roughrider, with a Baldwin front and MVA buffalo soul,while I don't recall the exact velocity, 77 gr of 2f OE gets a 1.3 inch long patched bullet to the 1000 yard target, with 155-160 pts on the slide.
PS add about 7 pts for the Distant Thunder long range front.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

If I had this debacle to do over again I would have decided to go with the standard Shiloh 19-twist when I decided to have Shiloh put the barrel on instead of my usual gunsmith. I'm sure I could have made the adjustment with some help and encouragement and I'm sure you would have been there for me.

When I decided on the Green Mountain barrel it was in part at the recommendation of said gunsmith. I should never have sent that barrel to Shiloh and apparently a Krieger barrel is not available at this time. As a result I have ended up with my .44-77 rifle caught in limbo and totally out of my control. I am stuck in a do loop! Every effort I have made to correct the mistake of the GM barrel has only cause things to go deeper into a blackhole and farther from completion.

I'm sure it will be completed in time but here I am 6 months into it and I'm still waiting on a barrel with no idea when said barrel will be available. It could be months before it is and then the work will still have to be fit into the system and get done.

I am a bit disappointed but there is nothing I can do other than just let time pass....., slowly pass!

[Don McDowell]

DT I wish there were other places to get 44 barrels, altho from what I've seen in the last few years, I'm not sure there's a better bpcr barrel than the one's that Kirk turns out of the Shiloh shop.
The GM barrel I had the 44 2.4 put together with sure works well with the 434470 bullet.
On the bright side tho, good things are worth waiting for, and I suspect you'll be thoroughly happy when that rifle returns home.

[R-71]

How much powder are you fellas using? I imagine the case will hold more than 77 grains. How about a bullet mold and weight?

I haven’t checked the twist in my barrel, I think it’s an older gun serial #76XX.

[Don McDowell]

77 grs. of OE 2f is where I've settled for the most part. I have had good results with 75 gr. of OE 1 1/2.

[Lead pot]

Jim these are the bullets I use for long range in my .44's 16-17 twist and the .44-90 BN 19 twist. They all shoot very well except the far right it was supposed to be a prolate but it did not make that grade. :) it looses it at the ram line if the winds are playing around.
#1 the far left is a swaged Medford stile and it is the most stable and best average shooter for long range.
#2, is from a Sage mould and it has a .250" nose. This one I haven't had a chance to use past 200 yards but the way it's shooting at 200 It will make the 1K I'm sure. This mould came with my .44-77 Farmer I should have in my hands in a week and it will get some serious work when I get it.
#3 is a bullet from the elliptical KAL mould and it is a very good shooter. It has earned me dust collectors in the 19 twist .44-90 BN. At first I had a problem with the mould and I had Rick make me a sprue plate with a .100" hole and problems we're solved. This has a longer shank compared to the ogive that makes it a fine shooter.
#4 will make a fine catfish slip sinker if with more work with it don't pan out.
#1 is 1.4" long 509 gr
#2 is 1.454" long 509 gr
#3 is 1.459" long 500 gr
#4 is 1.455" long 479 gr
I shoot these in the .44-75 Ballard 16 twist, .44-100 Rem st 17 twist, .44-90 bn 19 and 16 twist.
I have used the KAL #3 in the .44-77 19 twist and it will put the turkeys down and miss some rams.
I use 74 grains of 2F OE 75 gr 1.5 Swiss in the .44-77 19 twist but it favors the OE load.
I pulled the 19 twist .44-90 BN barrel off the Shiloh and had Kirk put a 17 twist Krieger 1.3X35" finishes untapped round barrel on it but I'm going to put the 19 back on it. It shoots very good but it's too heavy.
255870255873

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt, those are shooters for sure. Of the four I like the #1 Medford style best, that is a nose shape I know will hold up well in almost any wind condition to 1000 yards. #2 is very similar to my .45 caliber Lodi bullet and it has done very well for me.

Just figuring 1300 fps the various twists would look like this for maximum bullet length with good stability:

.446 groove dia. @ 1300 fps

Twist Length

19 1.320"

18 1.390"

17 1.470"

16 1.560"

A 16-twist might be too much of a good thing. A 17-twist should easily allow for a 500+ grain bullet that will be well stabilized to 1000 yards. The 19-twist would be interesting in that it is close the 20-twist that the original Sharps rifles had and would make an excellent silhouette/hunting rifle. And with the right design bullet would make it to 1000 yards well too. That of course is all just my opinion, but it is based on over twenty years of shooting BPCRs.

The longer I've been shooting the more I am moving away from the sleeker nose shapes like a prolate and money designs and more I like the Medford design and even an old round nose design like my .40 caliber bullet. Again I am speaking of Creedmoor matches. In silhouette the ranges are much more forgiving even if the targets are not.

I think the reason is that velocities remain fairly high, even above the speed of sound to 550 yards in some cases. (pun) In Creedmoor you transition from above the speed of sound at the muzzle to truly subsonic for the majority of the flight. A bullet like the Medford design handles the subsonic part better. No matter what cartridge you choose or how much BP you stuff in the case you can not escape the fact that we are operating in the TRANSONIC ZONE (1346-897 fps). Your bullet design needs to reflect that fact.

In the end I believe the 17-twist Krieger barrel that will be on my .44-77 will work very well for the full range of BPCR shooting. Even if not, I will still look my very best shooting those .44 caliber paper patch bullets in that sexy bottleneck case! :bigsmyl2:

[Lead pot]

For the 19 twist .44-77 I use the #1 type nose in the Brooks adjustable mould set at 1.325" and it drops a bullet at 485 grains with my alloy. I don't even try the #3 or the #4 in the ..44-77 with the 19 twist. It does not push the bullet fast enough to hold the rpm at extended range. Now in the 19 twist .44-90BN #3 does very well past the 1K. I shot that rifle and bullet at the White Buffalo at Raton and the one on the Shiloh range both are past a 1000 yards.
The Swaged Medford I can swage to just short of 2" long but I swage them 1.4" long for the .44-90 and they make NRA pit weight. But I don't use it often because the base punch is a cup base and I heed to use a twisted PP tail to fill the cup to protect the skirts and keep the wad from getting pushed into the cup and leaks gas. I don't have a lathe anymore to turn the base punch down flat to get rid of it.

[John Boy]

Jim- Excellent Post, Thanks

[Lead pot]

Jim,
That Metford bullet I have shot past 1500 yards, 1585, with my 19 twist in the .44-77 with the bullet at 1.325" and I will say that it will connect with a Buffalo in the vitals and put him down if you do your thing.
I used my Shiloh Hartford hunting rifle you shot at Harris with the barrel sights in some very hard wind that I had to hold off almost full sized iron Buffalo target. That bullet put a fine round splat point first. I know that Lawrence sight on that rifle had enough elevation left to surpass one mile.
I have shot this rifle on 1K irons with the tang sight and I did not have to crank in two points in over bullet #3 and I suspect maybe recoil barrel jump between 485 grains and 500 had something do do with that.

[Lead pot]

John, are you going to Ridgeway in July?

[reinert]

Cast Bullet Guys,

I know this is an old thread, and I'm a new guy here, but I thought I could ask a question on this particular thread in regards to my "new" old rifle. It's a #1 Sporting Roller made in the mid 1870s in 44/77 cal. It has a 30" barrel, with a 1:19 r.o.t., and the bore is wonderfully shiny bright. I want to shoot paper patch, and not use it in any kind of competition, but do want to hunt with it. I've slugged the bore from both the breech and the muzzle. From the muzzle, and driving the slug down about 4," it slugs @ .42" down to .40" (consistently) and that's by turning the slug about every 64th or so of an inch circular and measuring over and over. I know it would be great to know the exact bore dia., but I'm not that great as any kind of measuring machinist... but I thought what, and how, I measured might be worthy of helpful comment; would appreciate it to get a result a better way (just for this one rifle, uniquely as a traditional hunting gun).

From the breech: I drove the slug into the bore around 4" and came up with the dia. being .44," down to .42." The measurement was very consistent, and as I measured the muzzle in the same manner, slowly turning and measuring. The groove dia. is very slight, and trying to measure that without anything "groovy" being across from each other for groove dia. is kind of tough, for me anyway.

An idea of what dia. p.p. bullet to order for the rifle is what I'm asking here. I plan on a Brooks mould, but I want to make sure I have the right one made from the get go, if possible. This rifle will be used only with the "Holy Black" (thinking 1.5 Swiss or the same of old E. for a charge) from here on, as long as I own it. I'm thinking maybe pure lead for proper obturation with a paper patched pill, again for hunting.

Before I call Steve Brooks to order a mould, I thought I'd run it by ya'll first. I also was wondering what the best bullet weight, in the traditional sense, for hunting big game (elk mostly) would be proper. Also, cupped base or flat, and again, best for hunting.

Thanks for any info aforehand, I would dearly appreciate it. What else would I need for info for Steve to make a mould for the old roller? I've shot greasers for over 20 years in my Shilohs, but never have paper patched. Wanna get into the "old" jackets, just because. I love that old, historical roller certain sure! Geeze, to know where it's been... and what it's "been into."

reinert

[reinert]

Need to make a correction on my measurements on the bore of the old rolling block in the previous post.

The breech measures .444" to .442" (instead of .44" to .42")

The muzzle measures .442" to .440." (instead of .42" to .40")

Sorry...

[Don McDowell]

Figure out the bore diameter at the breech, and then go with a bullet that is about 4 or 5 thousands smaller before patching.

[Lead pot]

reinert,

Without knowing the bore diameter, not the groove diameter it's hard to give you a unpatched bullet diameter.
For the purpose you want to use this rifle, for hunting, or just fun shooting you don't want a bullet overly tight especially for hunting were you might need a followup shot.
No need to use pure lead shooting black powder to get proper obturation, I use 1/20 tin/lead for hunting this will give you good penetration that pure lead on large game when it hits bone or angle shots might not make a good pass through to ventilate the boiler room. 1/20 or 1/30 is good enough to get the job done and still expand the nose. A hunting bullet with 1/20 or 1/30 will obturate good .004" under bore diameter and distance you will shoot hunting. Match shooting I want my patched bullet right at bore diameter. I also use a bore diameter bullet for the first shot for hunting and a lesser diameter incase I need a followup shot. The first shot is the important shot.
With the .44-77 you have the neck to work around with seating the wads, lube if you use it plus the cards so for hunting to be able to make a follow up shot a tight patched bullet needs to be seated deep to keep the ogive back off the fouled throat so you can close the breach and this will take up room in the case neck and you don't want the wads below the neck in the case shoulder.
Find the bore diameter plus the paper thickness you want or can find, I like paper .0018 to .002" thick. I don't like patched thickness less than groove depth.
I don't know if your rifle has even lands grooves, but you can get a close enough measurement if they are odd like 3 or 5 grooves using a fraction drill bit or pin gages if you want to spend the money getting a set but drill bits will work inserting the shank (not the cutting end :) ) to get the bore diameter.
Enjoy the .44-77, it's a good caliber. I have two.

[Gunlaker]

Reinert, one thing that can solve the problem pretty quickly is to get some pin gauges and patch them with the paper you are going to use. This will allow you to find a bullet diameter that fits the bore right. If you can borrow a set of pin gauges and try this you'll at least be sure that you get the right fit the first time.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

A chamber cast that takes in the first inch or two of the rifling works well.

[reinert]

Appreciate the replies. Been shooting greasers for a good spell, and have had good luck with them using strictly black, and just now since I've acquired the old roller, I want to jump into paper patch for it, and no hurry about it, either. Just want to have fun with it. I've got the Matthews book (Paper Jacket) I've had for a long time, and am looking to pick up a copy of R. Wright's book, too. I emailed him yesterday for info on the next run of the book, and he told me it just may be available again next month, a good thing. I'm pushing 70 quite hard, and really like evenings on a good book study; and now, paper patched bullets for an old gun is right up my alley.

Mostly the reason I posted my questions, was because there is a real difference of breech measurement and muzzle measurement on my .44 (and how I measured both). I thought maybe there might/could be a compromise on what a mould dia. might be regarding the two ends of the barrel, and if it makes a difference for a proper mould. (?) The drill bit measurement that you mentioned is an interesting one. Also, I do know about pin gauges, and thanks for that reminder/suggestion. And I see by the comments here, that Steve Brooks makes an adjustable p.p. mould? Looks interesting. When I get to the point of putting in an order for a Brooks mould, I'll certainly have the BORE dia. figured (if not by me, I know a couple of folks...).

I also read just yesterday that some folks use computer paper for patching? Ha! So much to learn and have fun with. And like everything else, no two things of the same bird, are exactly the same for an application. I do get that. Once I get my bore dia. figured for a mould, is there a good starting point with a certain paper you might suggest? For starters? I do have a .44 p.p. template coming from BACO this week, so I can start practicing the rolling business (I have a couple of grooved .44s I can mess around on). Again, I do appreciate the helpful comments to get me on the right track with this cool old rifle I just got, and proper ammo. Thanks!

I just see now that Don M. posted about a chamber cast. I do have an unused 1/2 lb. bar of cerrosafe I've had for quite a few years; might be time to use it.

[reinert]

Gunlaker, thanks for that suggestion with paper patching the proper pin gauge. Seems a very good idea.

[Lead pot]

Well sounds like you have a slight choke at the muzzle from what you found already and that choke is a good thing. When you order your mould go by the breach end measurements.
The original Remington Rollers tend to have a larger groove and bore diameters then now mostly used. Some are closer to a .45 caliber from what I found in the past shooting the rollers.
The bullet on the left is a tapered Gibbs cast with a KAL adjustable mould it has a ogive that is good with not to much taper and it is a very good shooting bullet. You will read a lot of negatives about tapered bullets but this one works good as far as your sights will reach.
266860

[reinert]

Thanks, L.P.!

I think I'm going to try Gunlaker's suggestion of using pin gauges for bore measurement. I have a source for them. Then when I get my template, I'll practice rolling on the gauge until I get a mould for the real deal. As this rifle will be for fun and hunting, would you suggest a cupped or a flat based bullet? I will also keep in mind the breech measurement for bore is what I'm after. Also, for a hunting bullet, would a bit of meplat be in order for a better expansion on a critter? I would imagine Steve Brooks can make anything regarding a mould.

I use the Lyman 457193 f.n. mould, as cast, in my 45/70 with great results when hunting with a 20:1 alloy and black powder (the bullets from that mould weigh right @ 410 grns for me). I've killed elk, deer and antelope with the rifle, and though I've never been able to retrieve a bullet in the body of any of the critters I've shot using the gun, the exit wounds have always been substantially bigger than the entry. to date, nothing I've killed with that rifle were over 100 yds. There's a pretty fair amount of meplat on that bullet (I imagine for tubular usage), and was wondering if I would need quite that much on a new hunting mould for the .44. Nothing but pipe smoke thoughts here, and just wondering about a possible, needful sized meplat on a new mould in the works.

[Gunlaker]

One more thing. I would keep away from the thick computer paper. I use Eesleck paper ( discontinued ) that is about 0.002" thick, and Seth Cole 55W which is around 0.0016" or so thick. That stuff is easy to get by searching with google. I got mine from Amazon and eBay.

Since it sounds like you want to hunt with it maybe you'll be better off with a little bit thicker than the Seth Cole. I don't hunt with PP bullets but I'm pretty sure Don does. He will probably have a good suggestion on paper. I'd get the paper source figured out before you finalize your mold diameter.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Nothing wrong with a meplat for a hunting bullet but I wouldn't go over board on it's size.
A few years back I sent Steve Brooks a bullet I turned down on the lathe that was like the original bullet used by Sharps as well as other that was popular in the past used for the Buff hunts and most everything else and I used that bullet cast 1/20 T/L alloy on 3 bison hunts open I used the .44-90bn with that bullet and it put him down with one shot, Twice I used that same bullet for the .44-77 and two shots on one and three on the last one because the shots were a little high in the lung but the first shot was a killer. I don't like to have them feel the pain to long.
I have seen several guys using that profile with Steve's moulds. I also like that bullet for the gong shoots. if the bulet puts down a Bison in fine shape it will do the same to an Elk.
As far as a template for your bullet. You can make it by wrapping three turns around the diameter of the size that fits the bore and put a slit through the three layers and the two slits will be the length of the patch. Just cut about a 50 degree angle and your good to wrap the bullet. just don't put a scratch on the pin gauge :)

266863266864

[reinert]

Nice looking bullet, for sure. Is that a seated 44/77 round ready to chamber in the photo? Looks pretty long. (?) Do you use a .030" or .060" OPW under the bullet? Need to compress at all? Does compression work all right in a bottleneck? Looking forward to my own "newb" wrapping session coming up pretty quick. "just don't put a scratch on the pin guage," watchwords for sure... Also, is that a flat based bullet?

Please forgive all the questions, and know I do appreciate all the help.

Thanks again!

[country gent]

I would call Steve Brooks and make 2 of the best bore slugs you can and place in tubes labeled as to breech and muzzle then ship them to him. Let him measure and give an idea of size. He wants it right the first time also. He is an old hand at measuring and by measuring both the slugs and mould a lot of the room for error, different mikes. temps, feels will be removed. A win win solution for both of you.

The 3 wraps and nick makes a great template. I usually shorten the template about .030 to allow for a smother transition the end isnt laying on the radius of the second wrap over the end this way. I cut the width wide enough to cover bullet from just under ogive to a small fold under that leaves a small dia if the base showing, no tail. This is about an 1/8" dia showing thru. With brooks cup base this may take a little trial and error. This makes for a much flatter base and better seating.

[Don McDowell]

Keep your bullet length to no longer than 1.3 inches and it will retain accuracy across the spectrum. Staying with the original 1.1 inch length would most likely be where that rifle really shines. I have one of Brooks adjustable dual diameter sharps style moulds for the 44's and it works well. Mostly I either cast them at 1.1 inch or 1.3 in the 44-77. The base diameter is .435, wrapped in seth cole 55w, and seated one top of a dry lubed felt wad, and the exposed portion of the loaded bullet's patch treated with a dab of jojoba oil, works good for hunting.

[Lead pot]

I made the bullet as close as I could to the original with a cup base but I made a second base plug for a flat base. The the original cup based bullets the Sharps Rifle Co. used was to tug the twisted patch tail into to make the bullet base more or less flat. The cup based bullet is not ideal for a patch that is just folded under just covering the skirt. This damages the skirts and throws the accuracy I the drink.
Yes that round has been down range for a few years as you see it. :)
Don likes his bullets on the short end I like mine at 1.325 for the 19 twist .44's I have and it will hit a full sized iron buffalo at 1585 yards nose straight on with the barrel sighted 19 twist .44-77. For the large game I want to keep the bullet weight at 485 gr and this is where I locked the Brooks adjustable mould at. In the .44-90bn I use that bullet at 500 gr in it's 19 twist.
That bullet in the photo has a .023" thick OJ carton wad over the powder 1/8" lube wad and a .038" plastic ice cream bucket wad under the bullet. powder is compressed .243" usually with 79 gr of 2F OE. You can compress the powder in a BN case what ever you need for the accuracy but the load I use is a mild compressed load. Swiss will shoot with light compression and also with heavy. I have found it has a couple compression levels it will handle.

[reinert]

Fantastic info here guys. Thanks a big bunch. I believe I'll play a bit with the pin gauges, then call Steve Brooks for a visit. I'll make sure I make the slugs as per Steve wants me to, if that's what he requires. I did get a Brooks grease groove mould with the gun (.446 dia., and if I remember right, it's a 500 grn'r), but haven't had the opportunity to set up my bullet factory since I got the rifle (two weeks ago). I'm thinking the adjustable mould route, and I was thinking the 485 grn. setting would be a good hunting slug to start on, as Lead Pot seems to like "locked on" (with a bit of meplat; I'll see what Steve might suggest). I also got 100 pieces of Jamison brass with the rifle (80 of them new, unfired), so I'm in fair stead for play and hunting. Never paper patched before, and looking to have a great time learning all about it, with a cool old roller. As time and things proceed along here, I'll check in and let you know how goes the battle.

In the mean time, any info you might want to share, I do greatly appreciate. Thanks again!

[Don McDowell]

The reason I have settled on the "shorter" bullets in a 19 twist 44-77 gun is because they will stay stable in all conditions. The longer bullets will shoot maybe ok to 800 in calm conditions, but beyond that it's a crap shoot.
The most used load when your roller was new was a 1.1 inch bullet , there's a reason for that, and I seriously doubt they've built an critter that could contain one under 200 yards on a broadside hit.

[reinert]

I can foresee myself (pipe dream smoke) once I get a load that works well in the old gun, sitting someplace on a mountain trail, waiting for a cow elk to walk by me around 50-60 yards distant (or less!), broadside. I'm retired, so I just might be able to take the time to wait that situation out to reality, but probably not this year...(?) dunno, maybe. I DO have my Shiloh Hartford 45/70 all ready to go, ammo and all, if I want to use a traditional rifle this year, anyway.

The ol' roller has the "rough and ready" flip-up barrel peep sight on it, and I might need to drill the hole a bit bigger (old eyes see two holes in the thing, along with two front blades), but I kind of hate to put a drill bit to it at this point; still, could happen I suppose. Don't know if there's a Hadley type disc available that would work on it, or maybe a custom-threaded modification of a Merit diopter might/could somehow work, too. Ideas... When the "rough and ready" is flipped down to use just the traditional barrel sights arrangement, I still see that quite well, as long as I've got decent light to make the right sight picture. These are all good problems to deal with, along with building a good p.p. load the old rifle. Great project, all around.

[Don McDowell]

When that 44 bullet of the original sharps/remington nose slaps into an elks ribcage it make a pretty loud slap, and they hit the ground hard legs folded.
Might check with MVA they make a rough and ready sight, maybe it would drop right in place of that original one, and it wouldn't hurt to modify it to your liking.

[Distant Thunder]

Don and Kurt,

I'd like to ask a question of about PP hunting bullets. How much under bore size do you find is needed to be able to chamber subsequent rounds to allow for the fouling buildup in the .44-77 specifically?

I have noticed with my .44-77 that there is somewhat heavier fouling just in front of the chamber than what I typically see in my .45 caliber straight cased cartridges. It is not currently a problem because I'm working on target rounds and of course I'm wiping between shots to deal with the fouling. I would like to develop a PP hunting load for my .44-77 that would allow for a reasonable number of follow up shots while maintaining hunting accuracy at reasonable hunting distances. This question keeps coming up and I don't think I've seen anybody talk in detail about diameters. I thought the OP and I would both appreciate hearing your experiences on this.

For me it will make a great winter project to develop a PP hunting load. Is 200 yard hunting accuracy possible? Say minute of dinner plate?

Thanks as always for input.

[Lead pot]

Jim,

I has more to do with the ogive profile then the diameter to shoot repeatedly with fouled throats.

[Don McDowell]

Jim those dual diameter bullets I gave you a couple of years back , will shoot dirty, when using the dry lubed felt and jojoba on the patch, and it does shoot well enough to do a 97-3 at 200, should of been a 100-4, but got to day dreaming about who was going to play my part in the movie about the awards ceremony. LOL
And that is the only bullet I have found that would shoot dirty.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt, tapered?

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I thought that was the case with those. I have patched those with different papers and check the 2 diameters a number of times and I usually end up scratching my head and thinking, "How's that going to work?", but that is thinking as a target shooter.

All my BPCR hunting in the past has been with my .50-70 and a grease groove bullet that carried a good amount of lube and I was able to chamber and shoot several shots with no more than blowing into the breech if needed. I only actually fired follow up shots on two occasions and all shots hit their mark.

I will detail out a drawing based on your bullets before I shoot then all up so if they work in my rifle I'll be able to have a mold made for that bullet.

What paper do you use on those bullet when "shooting dirty"?

[Lead pot]

Jim,

Shooting dirty has been my passion for going on 65 years since I got my first .43 Spanish. back then I used a lot of the Harry Pope Moulds that he made for Ideal moulds but they were grease grooved. Take a look at the bullets in the link below, especially the .40 caliber and above and pay close attention to the ogive radius ahead of the scrapper band. Those radius will work shooting dirty regardless of the shank diameters shooting a PP bullet. Yes some have to be seated deep in the case if they are patched to groove diameter or too bore but bore can be adjusted more by the length of the ogives. Short ogives are seated deeper and long tapered will work seated farther out of the case.

The problem shooting dirty using a DDPP bullet is the .250" or so is patched to groove diameter, or close to it but the shank is the problem for holding good accuracy shooting dirty. The shank needs to be patched severely under bore to clear the fouled throat and this created a problem with possible runout. Yes the shank will obturate filling the bore/groove but if it filled more on one side that bullet will be greatly out of balance. I see this with some of the recovered bullets with the long high BC ellipticals patched under bore diameter. I have seen the land cuts more on one side of the ogive and some even with slump, plus land cuts missing .140" above the bullet base and on the other side of the ogive just short of the nose. This will show up more on a under sized DD if the shank is not bore diameter.

But answering your question "tapered" yes the bullet like the Gibbs with a proper taper and seated properly in the case will work great and it has a blunt enough nose for a good hunting bullet.


https://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm

[Don McDowell]

Jim, the paper I've used most with those is the Seth Cole 55w wet patched. When the newest 44-77 gets here, I do plan to run some with the 55y and see if they group tighter as number of other bullets I shoot have.
The 40 cal dual diameter in my 40-70 does seem like it would be a good candidate for shooting dirty, but I haven't really fully tested it. 3 shots is about all I've tried with it, they all chambered and went mostly where the sights were wobbling at the chickens in a silhouette match.
The trick to getting good accuracy and the ability to shoot accurately with the tapered bullets looks to be the base of the bullet to be right at or slightly above bore diameter before wrapping. This original Sharps 44-77 creedmoor bullet I have is a tapered bullet, that as best I can tell is .438 at the base. It won't go into the bore of either of my Shilohs. It is 1.3 inches long with the hollow base formed from swaging, and on close examination was seated 1/2 inch into the case. It weighs 455 grains.

[Lead pot]

266905

Here are some bullets cast using a original Sharps bullet mould and they have a slight taper.

[Distant Thunder]

Shooting dirty is about the only time when I can see a tapered bullet being useful. I have never tried shooting dirty with paper patch bullets.

The grease groove bullet that worked for me really didn't have any bore or groove diameter outside the case, the ogive started at the case mouth or very near. It will be interesting when I start working with paper patch for a dirty load.

I will have to look into the original Sharps style more. They are pretty cool in their simplicity.

So much more ground to cover with this .44-77, I've only begun to scratch the surface.

[reinert]

Back to my old roller questions...

I see by the posts here that the Seth Cole 55w gets mentioned mostly for patching paper. Is that the 8 lb. stuff I see available on a roll? Anyway, with all the other questions I've been pestering you guys with lately, I thought I'd humbly ask one more...for now. So, is the Seth Cole 55w, 8 lb. stuff, the one I should be after for starters? I also see Don M. has mentioned the 55y, too.

Thanks,
reinert

[Don McDowell]

Yes the Seth Cole 55w is an "8"lb paper. Office depot sells and 8 lb paper roll in their drafting supply section that is very similar.
I think something folks have either lost sight of , or possibly weren't ever aware of, back in the day of your roller patching paper came in 3 thickness, thick which would be similar to 9lb today, medium similar to 8 lb, and thin which would be closer to a 7 lb paper.

[reinert]

Thank ye kindly, Don! 👍👍

[Don McDowell]

You're welcome.
Looking forward to seeing what you can get that ol rifle to do when you get it up and running.

[reinert]

Yup, me too! Thanks to all helping me out with all the great info, and happy hunting to all this season!

reinert

[MichaelR]

Jim, you asked about the dimensions for DDPP bullets for shooting dirty so I will tell what works for me. The first 1/4” of the base for my bullets are patched to bore diameter. This fits well in the case neck of all the calibers I shoot just by FL sizing. For straight cases I patch the rest of the shank to .004” under bore diameter. This clears the fouling in the bore for follow up shots and shoots well enough for hunting and plinking. You are correct about BN cases having more fouling in the throat. There’s more than twice as much fouling so I doubled the clearance to .008” and sometimes that is marginal for firing several shots with out blowing into the breach.

As Kirt pointed out, there’s a possibility of excessive bullet runout with poor accuracy but that has not been a problem with the relatively blunt hunting bullets. If I have a batch that seems to be shooting below my expectations, I taper crimp them and that seems to correct the issue.

reinert, most of the Shiloh rifles have chambers cut to allow groove diameter bullets to chamber. Yours likely will not so after fitting the base to fit your bore diameter, be sure to check the fit in the mouth of a fire formed case. At this point you could adjust the size Of the bullet to fit your case necks snuggly so the don’t fall out easily.

The meplat controls the wound size and I prefer a large meplat. My favorite hunting bullet is much like the accurate 45-500R with a .300 meplat. The bullet does not “look” correct for a black powder load,
but it produces a wide and deep wound cavity. On my other bullets I have reduced the meplat size to look more like a factory load from the 1870’s. I have not used them enough to report if they have any loss in performance.

When loading with KIK powder, I expect to get 2.5 MOA for 10 shots. With other powders I reduce this to 5 shots, which is still plenty for hunting. There’s no reason to limit yourself to close shots only.

[Distant Thunder]

MicharlR,

Thank you for the dimensions, that is what I was looking for. This is an area I'd like to explore with my .44-77, hunting loads. I will have time to start on that this winter.

I would prefer not to size my brass but I have no problem with a crimp to hold the bullet in the cases if needed.

I have to assume you are using a lube wad under your bullets?

I've been working on the extra fouling of the bottleneck case and I think I've got it figured out, but testing this week will let me know for sure. I'm stilling working on target loads so wiping between shots is being used. For hunting loads if I could develop a load that would allow 5 shots without wiping and shoot into around 4" at 200 yards I'd a pretty happy man. I want to start with a bullet that will give me a good chance of success in achieving that goal. Probably around 450 to 470 grains in weight would seem about right.

Based on your dimensions I'll figure it should patch to about .429 to .430 for the "bore ride" section of the shank. For the base I would much rather be nearer to the .446" groove/case mouth I.D. so I don't have to size my cases too much. I won't be shooting near as many of these hunting loads as I do with target loads so some sizing, if needed, would be acceptable.

Thanks!

[R-71]

266905

Here are some bullets cast using a original Sharps bullet mould and they have a slight taper.

Hot damn that’s neat! What caliber are those bullets for?

[Lead pot]

.45-70 or larger. Patched to .449"

[MichaelR]

Jim
Using a light crimp in a loose case neck works well for target loads because they are self centering. There are a couple of reasons to have a tight neck for a hunting load. I always reload my rifle immediately after shooting even if the shot seemed good. Pulling a cartridge out of your pocket with out a bullet attached is a problem. The other is, a tight neck is all that keeps the centerline of the bullet aligned with center of the bore. I don’t know which loading dies you use, but Using a cheap Lee .43 Spanish sizing die to reduce about 1/4” of the neck should hold a bore diameter bullet nice and snug.

I do use a lube wad under the bullet sandwiched between two fiber milk carton wads. DGL or two parts oil and one part bees wax work for me.

I doubt that you will have any trouble getting adequate hunting accuracy for 5 shots. I’m sorry that I can’t send you some sample bullets, but I’m 9 time zones away from home right now.

[Distant Thunder]

MichaelR,

For dies I have a Lee .43 Mauser FL size die and a Lee .43 Spanish FL size die that I opened up the neck on so it is more compatible with the .44-77. I have not used the Spanish die much since the neck job, but it seems to have been a successful operation.

With my target loads my bullets are only in the case .090" and have a very slight taper crimp, the bullet can be pulled by hand and usually can be reseated by hand with no damage to the patch.

I picture my hunting bullets as being in the case something around 5/16" or a shade more. With the long neck on the .44-77 that should allow room for a lube wad with a card of some kind above and below. Lube wise I have jojoba and beeswax and a 50/50 mix is said to do well.

The area I am still sorting out in my head is the bullet design including the diameters that will fit my chamber/brass/fouling. The fouling being the one diameter that is going to be a variable. This week in working through load development with my target loads using a different lot of Swiss 1 1/2 I came to the conclusion that this lot of powder just isn't going to make the grade in my .44-77 for whatever reason.

It might be the extra fouling in front of the chamber, I don't know. The only other powder suitable for the .44-77 that I have on hand in any quantity is some Goex 2F. With a 1000 yard match just 3 weeks away I decided to try the Goex. To my somewhat surprise it shoot very well right out of the gate and there is noticeably less fouling in the barrel especially the area just in front of the chamber. That can't be a bad thing.

If the Goex 2F proves to shoot well in more testing it will be where I start with my hunting loads. A friend of mine is working on a paper patch bullet to be used over black powder in a .45 caliber levergun and I'm watching his bullet design very closely. The hunting load idea has been of interest since I began to have success with PP in target shooting and finally getting a .44-77 this summer has all conveniently come together for a great winter project. The thought of black powder and paper patch bullets and being able to load and shoot and repeat is fascinating to me and I am looking forward to going down that path.

It always helps to talk with someone who has been there and I appreciate the input from all of you guys.

[Yellowhouse]

While we are on the 44-77 has anyone noticed that new Jamison brass is around .008 shy of 2.25? Once fired with PPB is around .012.

[Yellowhouse]

Reinert.

Late seeing your post. Slick and shiny is a rarity....enjoy. These rifles vary a bit on bore and chamber dimensions but getting a read on such is necessary. You may find its tough getting a read on the groove diameter of the 5 groove Rem barrel but with PPB all you need is bore diameter. Even with thin necked Jamison or turned brass my sporter won't chamber a greaser any larger than .446 because of the small paper patch chamber of the day. Bore diameter is .444 but the groove diameter is a handsome .452ish which modern day shooters regard as overbore. As you can see that bullet has quite a bit of bumping up to do but it does it pretty well. Slug the bore and get some inside and outside measurements of your fired brass. Do the math before you spill for a mold.

[Distant Thunder]

Yellowhouse,

Some of my Jamison brass is as much as .020" short after 3 firings. My BACO brass is all very close to 2.250". If I had it to do over again I would spend the extra money spent on my Jamison brass on more BACO brass instead. If you're going to shoot .446" diameter or larger bullets you may have to turn the necks on the BACO.

BACO's would be a better for bore diameter (.438") ppb as they came from BACO. It seems the old rifles in .44-77 were chambered for bore diameter paper patch bullets, but many just complain that the bores are oversize and never realize what they have. Most factory loads for the .44-77 were paper patch bullets I believe.

[Yellowhouse]

Yellowhouse,

Some of my Jamison brass is as much as .020" short after 3 firings. My BACO brass is all very close to 2.250". If I had it to do over again I would spend the extra money spent on my Jamison brass on more BACO brass instead. If you're going to shoot .446" diameter or larger bullets you may have to turn the necks on the BACO.

BACO's would be a better for bore diameter (.438") ppb as they came from BACO. It seems the old rifles in .44-77 were chambered for bore diameter paper patch bullets, but many just complain that the bores are oversize and never realize what they have. Most factory loads for the .44-77 were paper patch bullets I believe.

I wonder if theres a case stretcher out there to remedy the too short case from Jamison.

[Lead pot]

Just anneal the necks and put a slight roller crimp on the neck that will stretch the neck but don't over do the crimp.

[Distant Thunder]

There are things available. I don't know much about any of them but TexasMac has a very good article on the various methods. I have planned on making up a case "nibbing" tool for use in a lathe. That would give me options for other cases once the tooling is made. I have a bunch of .40-65 brass that is about the same amount sort. Short brass gives me paper rings and while they seem not to cause any real problems they are a PITA.

Brass is pretty easy to work with when you have the tooling. It does work harden rather quickly and should be annealed often if your moving a lot of it around.

[reinert]

A little update on my "old roller" pp loading quest:

Talked to my good friend who I acquired the .44 Remington from just a couple of days ago, and he told me there was a history to the rifle that he tried to get the official paperwork for it back then when he got it years ago (and quite a few years ago now, at that). The gun originally was owned by a family who had a relative who used the gun in the West back "In The Day," and he (my bud when he got the gun) saw a family picture of the rifle leaning up against a wagon wheel, with a cartridge belt, and the wagon stacked with buffalo hides. My good friend also said he could recognize the rifle by the grain in the stock, and my buddy builds very nice m.l. guns, besides, and his scrutiny of stock wood undeniably verified the claim. I believe him, and what a very, very cool thing.

My friend tried every avenue to get the provenance from the prior owner, but couldn't make it happen (bad communication glitches; phone numbers disconnected and things just falling through the cracks, and lost). Long story short, the story behind the gun is a good one, but can't be absolutely proven; mystiques are ok my me, anyway. I do trust my friend with the info he gave me, as he is a gunsmith, total gun-crank buddy of mine who I believe wholeheartedly. All the background on the gun, though a cool story, only adds to the great thing that I own it now. Ha!

My bud also told me that at some point back in the past, the gun was re-barreled with a factory, period Remington barrel, marked 44 just in front of the forearm nosecap. It also has the number 1371 on the bottom barrel flat under the forearm. So, don't know when the gun was re-barreled, but to me, it really doesn't matter. I just love the old thing.

Also, I tried to run (gently, no scratches!) a .439" pin gauge into the bore from the muzzle for a first time measurement; didn't go. I am waiting for two pin gauges that I ordered that will measure .437" and .438" to see how they might (or might not) fit. And just for a try, I ran a .41 Rem Mag, unsized, fired case into the muzzle just to see how it fit, and it did, and the case fit a little bit loosely, which measured RIGHT at, .436." I know, bubba deal there. But I got somewhat of an idea of the bore measurement until I can be more accurate before I have a visit with Steve Brooks (and a fresh slugging session, too).

So this is interesting; old factory re-barreled #1 sporting roller with a history (when re-barreled; never know?), with a near .43 Spanish bore (?), and I DO have a set of .43 Spanish Lee dies. The best thing with this rifle is that I don't have to have this gun up and running with any kind of a deadline. PURE FUN from my end... Got my .44 pp template from BACO, Seth Cole 55 8lb. paper ordered and coming, and all the time the Good Lord will let me have building an accurate pp load. If that bore measures out @ say, .437" or .438," would it still be considered a .44/77? Ha! I don't care!

I just got done reading a post on this forum yesterday that sums up all of this B.P.C.R. wonderful sickness we have (that I have anyway). It's by a guy with the handle of Hiwall55 (back in Dec. of '19), and he said in a post, "The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." Then, "Good luck, Bill." I think I'll make a nicely lettered and framed wall hangered quote of those words right above my reloading bench to always keep me focused on this unbelievable journey I'm (we're) on.

This journey, quest, will be continued... and again, thanks for ALL of your help.

[Yellowhouse]

Just anneal the necks and put a slight roller crimp on the neck that will stretch the neck but don't over do the crimp.

With greasers or PPB?

[Yellowhouse]

A little update on my "old roller" pp loading quest:

Talked to my good friend who I acquired the .44 Remington from just a couple of days ago, and he told me there was a history to the rifle that he tried to get the official paperwork for it back then when he got it years ago (and quite a few years ago now, at that). The gun originally was owned by a family who had a relative who used the gun in the West back "In The Day," and he (my bud when he got the gun) saw a family picture of the rifle leaning up against a wagon wheel, with a cartridge belt, and the wagon stacked with buffalo hides. My good friend also said he could recognize the rifle by the grain in the stock, and my buddy builds very nice m.l. guns, besides, and his scrutiny of stock wood undeniably verified the claim. I believe him, and what a very, very cool thing.

My friend tried every avenue to get the provenance from the prior owner, but couldn't make it happen (bad communication glitches; phone numbers disconnected and things just falling through the cracks, and lost). Long story short, the story behind the gun is a good one, but can't be absolutely proven; mystiques are ok my me, anyway. I do trust my friend with the info he gave me, as he is a gunsmith, total gun-crank buddy of mine who I believe wholeheartedly. All the background on the gun, though a cool story, only adds to the great thing that I own it now. Ha!

My bud also told me that at some point back in the past, the gun was re-barreled with a factory, period Remington barrel, marked 44 just in front of the forearm nosecap. It also has the number 1371 on the bottom barrel flat under the forearm. So, don't know when the gun was re-barreled, but to me, it really doesn't matter. I just love the old thing.

Also, I tried to run (gently, no scratches!) a .439" pin gauge into the bore from the muzzle for a first time measurement; didn't go. I am waiting for two pin gauges that I ordered that will measure .437" and .438" to see how they might (or might not) fit. And just for a try, I ran a .41 Rem Mag, unsized, fired case into the muzzle just to see how it fit, and it did, and the case fit a little bit loosely, which measured RIGHT at, .436." I know, bubba deal there. But I got somewhat of an idea of the bore measurement until I can be more accurate before I have a visit with Steve Brooks (and a fresh slugging session, too).

So this is interesting; old factory re-barreled #1 sporting roller with a history (when re-barreled; never know?), with a near .43 Spanish bore (?), and I DO have a set of .43 Spanish Lee dies. The best thing with this rifle is that I don't have to have this gun up and running with any kind of a deadline. PURE FUN from my end... Got my .44 pp template from BACO, Seth Cole 55 8lb. paper ordered and coming, and all the time the Good Lord will let me have building an accurate pp load. If that bore measures out @ say, .437" or .438," would it still be considered a .44/77? Ha! I don't care!

I just got done reading a post on this forum yesterday that sums up all of this B.P.C.R. wonderful sickness we have (that I have anyway). It's by a guy with the handle of Hiwall55 (back in Dec. of '19), and he said in a post, "The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." Then, "Good luck, Bill." I think I'll make a nicely lettered and framed wall hangered quote of those words right above my reloading bench to always keep me focused on this unbelievable journey I'm (we're) on.

This journey, quest, will be continued... and again, thanks for ALL of your help.

That is a great story! Wish you could get a copy of that picture! Keep in mind that back then Remington used the British/Colt method of caliber. For instance, in their catalogues it clearly states 44-100 bore because that was what it was nominally. In essence, we are shooting 45 cal 44-77 when using the modern method of groove diam which came about mostly in the advent of smokeless powder. There are a number of 46 rimfire sporters around and some, not so honestly at times, have changed to centerfire and rechambered to 44-77. Guess what? The groove on the 46 is also around 452ish or slightly larger.
Not saying yours is but there are smiths around that can build 5 groove barrels to any dimension and remark them. However, an assessment of barrel markings is usually enough to confirm originality. My serials all match throughout but the barrel address is that of a manufacture in the early 1880's and not the early 70's the 12xx suggests. Either it was rebarreled by Remington or maybe a rifle made up from leftover parts at the factory. The 2 in my 4-digit rifle had a chip that shows in each place the serial occurs including the barrel which suggests coming from the factory. It has some salt and pepper frecking ahead of the chamber but other than that is entirely shootable. Have fun and post pics!

[Distant Thunder]

reinert,

If the bore (land) diameter of your roller is something around .436-.438" that would put it in line with what modern day .44-77 barrels are. Mine, which is a Krieger barrel, measure pretty much right at .438".

I don't recall if you have any cases that have been fired in your rifle or not. If you do the mouth ID would tell you the largest diameter bullet you would be able to chamber. Once you have all the numbers you'll be able to find out what your bullet has to look like to fit YOUR rifle.

The twist rate will tell you the maximum length you can work with.

A chamber cast will tell you some much needed info too.

Good luck with your journey and be sure to enjoy the process of developing and shooting paper patch bullets. Oh, and thank you for reviving the thread!

[Yellowhouse]

reinert,

If the bore (land) diameter of your roller is something around .436-.438" that would put it in line with what modern day .44-77 barrels are. Mine, which is a Krieger barrel, measure pretty much right at .438".

I don't recall if you have any cases that have been fired in your rifle or not. If you do the mouth ID would tell you the largest diameter bullet you would be able to chamber. Once you have all the numbers you'll be able to find out what your bullet has to look like to fit YOUR rifle.

The twist rate will tell you the maximum length you can work with.

A chamber cast will tell you some much needed info too.

Good luck with your journey and be sure to enjoy the process of developing and shooting paper patch bullets. Oh, and thank you for reviving the thread!

Ditto on the chamber cast. If it has a 45 degree chamber step into the lands it is most assuredly modern as the originals have PPB chambers. However, I'm hoping and betting yours are authentic. There was a lot of variability and there are rifles around that have seemingly modern chamber dimensions. Thats why slugging and chamber casts are important.

[reinert]

DT and Yellowhouse,

I do have fire formed cases from the rifle; once fired, actually. When I got the gun, my buddy had some loaded, grease grooved bullet rounds from the 100 Jamison brass I got with the rifle. I fired most of the rounds, but since we were shooting @ 250 yds., any kind of good accuracy results with my eyes using the "Rough and Ready" barrel peep, left much to future, deliberate, "hands on" testing with pp (as my new, framed, favorite quote will remind me of). Those once fired cases, measure just pretty much dead center between .446" and .447," inside the case/neck mouth.

I still have some loaded rounds from the batch I shot, so I pulled a bullet to measure. It pulled very easily, and even left the OPW in the neck without losing any powder. Now my buddy duplexed those loads with 1.5 Swiss, and I can't remember what his smokeless duplexing powder was (I've used nothing but black in my B.P.C.R. endeavors so far, so I don't follow what duplexing powders to use). Anyway, I believe the bullet was from an old RCBS .446" mould (not made any more as I understand), weighs 398 grns. and measures dead @ .446." These bullets were lubed with SPG.

I also have one of those Teslong bore scopes, and you can reach most near 36" with the thing. So, going in from the muzzle, the bore looks great all the way through, and the cool thing about this scope, is you can chamber a spent case, and see all the way into the case itself if you want to. Using the scope, with a case chambered, the lead looks fairly long with a very gradual taper into the rifling itself. So, would that indicate a possible paper patch chamber? To me, it kind of looks that way, but I'm still learning here. Yeah, a chamber cast should/would/will no doubt be a next step for aid in regarding a new mould." Also, the new Jamison cases measure right @ 2.25," as they should, and a fired case from the rifle measures @ 2.24."

I have two Shilohs, a Hartford 45/70 with a 30" sporter oct. barrel, and a LRE in 45/90 with a 32" heavy oct. barrel. I shoot strictly b.p. with greasers in both, and they are wonderfully accurate. So I might be spoiled as to thinking how easy it is to load for these "old tyme" rifles. I hope the pp loadings might/could be the same for this old rifle I have, but I'm ready for the long haul to an accurate pp load for the old roller if need be. All fun, with an old gun.

"The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." What a line.... "Good luck, Bill" Ha!

reinert

[ndnchf]

Reinert - I'm following along on your progress and results. I just bought an original .44-77 #1 sporting rifle. While waiting for it to arrive I'm trying to learn as much as possible. Please post updates as your journey continues - thanks.

[Yellowhouse]

DT and Yellowhouse,

I do have fire formed cases from the rifle; once fired, actually. When I got the gun, my buddy had some loaded, grease grooved bullet rounds from the 100 Jamison brass I got with the rifle. I fired most of the rounds, but since we were shooting @ 250 yds., any kind of good accuracy results with my eyes using the "Rough and Ready" barrel peep, left much to future, deliberate, "hands on" testing with pp (as my new, framed, favorite quote will remind me of). Those once fired cases, measure just pretty much dead center between .446" and .447," inside the case/neck mouth.

I still have some loaded rounds from the batch I shot, so I pulled a bullet to measure. It pulled very easily, and even left the OPW in the neck without losing any powder. Now my buddy duplexed those loads with 1.5 Swiss, and I can't remember what his smokeless duplexing powder was (I've used nothing but black in my B.P.C.R. endeavors so far, so I don't follow what duplexing powders to use). Anyway, I believe the bullet was from an old RCBS .446" mould (not made any more as I understand), weighs 398 grns. and measures dead @ .446." These bullets were lubed with SPG.

I also have one of those Teslong bore scopes, and you can reach most near 36" with the thing. So, going in from the muzzle, the bore looks great all the way through, and the cool thing about this scope, is you can chamber a spent case, and see all the way into the case itself if you want to. Using the scope, with a case chambered, the lead looks fairly long with a very gradual taper into the rifling itself. So, would that indicate a possible paper patch chamber? To me, it kind of looks that way, but I'm still learning here. Yeah, a chamber cast should/would/will no doubt be a next step for aid in regarding a new mould." Also, the new Jamison cases measure right @ 2.25," as they should, and a fired case from the rifle measures @ 2.24."

I have two Shilohs, a Hartford 45/70 with a 30" sporter oct. barrel, and a LRE in 45/90 with a 32" heavy oct. barrel. I shoot strictly b.p. with greasers in both, and they are wonderfully accurate. So I might be spoiled as to thinking how easy it is to load for these "old tyme" rifles. I hope the pp loadings might/could be the same for this old rifle I have, but I'm ready for the long haul to an accurate pp load for the old roller if need be. All fun, with an old gun.

"The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." What a line.... "Good luck, Bill" Ha!

reinert

Sounds like the real deal to me. What a find!!!

[Lead pot]

"Using the scope, with a case chambered, the lead looks fairly long with a very gradual taper into the rifling itself. So, would that indicate a possible paper patch chamber? "

That is a paper patch/lead bullet lead. The 45 degree came along with the start of the gilded jackets mostly around the .30-40 Kraig time using the Cordite powder and less smoke powder.
I would guess with your inside cases mouth measuring .446-.447" that chamber was cut with a custom reamer and seeing the long tapered lead. Your good to go finding an accurate load. The .44-77 is a great caliber and it won't take much getting it where you want it.

Find out what the bore twist is and match the bullet to it. if it's 1/19 or slower I would use a bullet around 1.325" long or less with a nose on the blunter side around .250". My two .44-77's, 1/19 and 1/17 twists shoot them well.

[reinert]

Haven't checked in here for a spell, and am letting ya'll know of what I've been doing, and plan on doing currently, with the old roller. Hunting season is upon us here in Big Wyoming. And what I've decided to do 'till winter hits, and the hunt is over, is to use the rcbs .44 370 grn. F.N. greaser bullet during the season when packing the old Remington. Then I plan, in earnest, to proceed with the paper patch project. Again, this old gun won't be any kind of competition piece, just a fun old period rifle to hunt and plink with, and I'm in no hurry to come to any kind of finality with a load. I'm just going to have fun playing with the cool old thing.

I read somewhere that RCBS quit making the .44 mould I recently got from BACO, and I was quite happy to see that they were still available. So I got one. I did get a bunch of rounds made up for the rifle using that bullet, which shot quite well at 50yds. I know that was not any kind of a real test, but I was happy with my first real outing with it, to see what accuracy it just might be capable of. I'm also waiting on a .444 bullet sizer right now, as the rounds did lead the bore more than a little. Since a .439 pin gauge did not fit breech nor muzzle, I figured to try the .444 bullet size to start. The inside case mouths on fire-formed, un-sized cases, measure right @ .446." I'm thinking I might just be able to finger seat a .444 sized greaser in those cases; we'll see. For now, I'm good with a greaser pill for this hunting season, as I really want to take the old beast out on the mountain.

That "rough and ready" sight's aperture is too little for my eyes to use at all (would never work for me in dark timber), and since I didn't want to alter it (yet), I made a "frontier style" elevator out of a copper rivet to raise it high enough to print dead @ 50yds. (the rifle shot more than a foot low using my rest) when using the conventional rear leaf. When that ladder sight is down, and using the regular conventional leaf rear sight (a lot like my Shiloh rear) I can use that rivet elevator, which I made so I can slide it in the aperture disc's setting track, and I can actually lock it in place for an adjustable rear sight elevator. Hope that made some sort of sense. The rivet deal really does look like a "prairie fix" improv as one might have made out of necessity on a hunt. Guess that's just what I did, and it WORKS! Ha! Can't wait to pack that old gun on the hill chasing my cow elk. Whether I'm successful on a kill with it this season really doesn't matter that much. It's just the fact I put an old rifle back on track for what it was designed for. To me, that's as cool as it gets.

BTW, Lead Pot, my rifle does have a 1/19 r.o.t. Good to be back talking "Old Rollers!"

[ndnchf]

Thanks for the update reinert. I've ordered some pp and grease bullets from BACO to start out with. PP is my preference, but I'll see how it goes.

Mine was factory drilled and tapped for a tang sight. I happened to have a new Marbles sight on the shelf with Remington hole spacing, so I mounted it. Its not the same quality as vintage originals, but it will help my aging eyes.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[Lead pot]

If that RCBS mould is the .44-370-FN 585 that is a good bullet for the 19 ROT. I used that mould for my Shiloh with the 19 ROT and it worked very good especially for what your plans are for this fine roller as long as the bore riding portion of the bullet is not to tight for the bore diameter so it will seat in the throat.

It will be a little tight for your .446" fired case mouth but a run through a sizing die if needed will work just fine. My tight chambered .44 rifles a .446 will not fit the case mouth but I only shoot the PP. so I can adjust the bullet diameter without a problem.

[reinert]

The on going saga of an old roller...

Though I haven't started down the paper patch trail yet (my winter project after this hunting season), I found a good hunting load for the old rifle using the Brooks mould I got with the gun. I got a nice doe whitetail with it a couple of days ago on a friend's piece of ground that he's allowed me to hunt on. The shot was around 70-75 yds., and the rifle placed the bullet right where I intended it to go. Pretty cool, and the .44 is plenty medicine on a whitetail... Yeah... The bullet passed through the rib cage, and she ran about 50 yds. and piled up. The only meat that got ruined, was the flank meat on the ribs; all else butchered up nicely. I was so pleased with how the rifle shot after my work-up load that I finally found quite accurate. That Brooks bullet weighs right at 490 grns., with a .25" meplat on the tip; a good hunting bullet.

My load was 77 grns. of 1.5 Swiss, compressed about .26" (all this happens inside the neck). I used a .030" Walter's wad over the powder, with a newsprint disc over the wad and under the bullet. I also had a newsprint disc inside the case bottom, over the CCI BR-ll primer. My bullet lube is what I make using 1 cup of beeswax, 1 cup of peanut oil, and a tablespoon of STP oil treatment. This lube has worked very well for me for many years, and I don't have any reason to use anything else. The C.O.A.L. for this rifle and bullet is 3.034," and it's a few thousandths backed off from engaging the lands. No problems shooting a half dozen rounds through it with out any fouling control whatever, and it loads and ejects perfectly set up this way for hunting. It does lead-up pretty good shooting this way, but it's still quite accurate notwithstanding, and that's ok with me. I know how to get the lead out...ha!

Loading for the old rifle is thus, and what I've found works very well for the Brooks, grease grooved bullet: I have a Lee .43 Spanish set of dies, a Lee .43 Mauser set of dies (got these with the rifle), and a .43 Spanish set of C&H dies (a very nice set I got for 60 bucks off of ebay). I also use a Lee .444" bullet sizing die for the lubed, .446" Brooks bullet (as it comes from the mould). Actually, those bullets measure nearer .445" as they come out of the mould, a good thing. I mix my own 20:1 lead/tin alloy for my pot.

Here's the process:

I full length size the fired case with the Lee .43 Spanish die, then neck size the case with the .43 Mauser die, and then use the C&H expander die plug to flare, very slightly, the case mouth. So, you might be thinking, why not use that fine C&H sizing die instead of the Lee die? Because trying all the angles, with all the die pieces I have, what I've just described works the very best for me...nuff said there, and believe me, I've played with everything I've got for the die/round loading system that works for the old roller and me. Again, this is just a hunting rifle, and not a target gun, though it may very well could be with how everything is working out so far!

Now I know this sounds like a lot of monkeying around, but it works very well, indeed. With the case prepped this way, and the bullet sized @ .444," I can finger start the base completely into the case mouth very evenly, and then cupping my hands with the case/bullet in my palms, I squeeze the bullet into the case, seating it against the compressed wads (tight, and snug). I can feel it stops, tightly, against the wads, completely seated, with just the first driving band of the bullet exposed right at the edge of the case mouth. All the greased grooves are completely contained in the case this way, and that's a good thing, too. I can carry rounds in a pocket without any thought of contaminating the lube, another good thing. So, so far, this rifle has been very good to me in developing a good hunting load without any, really, problems so far. It's a good old beastie, and I can see the barrel sights quite nicely besides... I do plan on taking it up the mountain after elk pretty quick here. I do have that trail I want to sit on...

Don't know, but I'll have to ask my bud who owned the gun before me if he ever killed anything with it. Who knows? Maybe the old beast has set in hibernation for many, many years before making meat again just a couple of days ago.

The saga of the old gun continues... what fun!

[Yellowhouse]

I don't FL resize any of my 44-77 unless new and won't chamber. After that it's neck size only to reduce the neck for PPB. Occasionally I do shoot a greaser and just flair the case mouth a bit for seating.

I'm curious.....what is the inside neck diameter of your fired cases?

[Lead pot]

With greasers or PPB?

The GG work the best with a light roll crimp just ahead of the first driving band. But you can over do the crimp and pull the case apart. The crimp way is hit or miss.

I also made a simple tool that I welded a ball bearing on a hard rod that was mounted on the tool post. I made a die body that held the case in the lathe chuck and drew that bearing on the inside of the case like the dish spinners do making Largs dishes and vent hoods.

This simple draw die I made in the photo and used the swage press.

It was a fun project but it would be a lot better to get the draw die made with a RCBS die. Not sure what it's called or who makes it, but someone posted a thread on the forum once using it.
That stuff above you do when your bored in the winter after hunting season and before ice fishing :)

269889

[reinert]

Hey Yellowhouse, right now I don't have any empty, un-worked cases for the rifle; all my fire-formed stuff is fixed ammo at present, loaded as I posted. If I remember correctly, I believe the inside case neck measures on a fired case right @ .446" (looking at a prior post, #88, I see I did mention that measurement; dead between .446-7").

When running a fired case through the Lee .43 Spanish die full length, I really can't "feel" much going on with the die/case working through the press. And then, using the Mauser die as just set for neck sizing (I size the whole case neck) I can "feel" the press working the brass somewhat, if you kind of know what I'm saying here. Then, after the slight bell/flare of the case mouth, those .444" sized bullets fit really nice with just the hand seating I mentioned. And they shoot really well, and I guess that's the bottom line.

Now, also, after I run a fired case through that same Lee .43 Spanish full length die, I have a Lee .446" expander ball I can use after I bell the case mouth a bit, and I then can hand seat an "as-cast" bullet from the Brooks mould the same way as I do with the .444" sized bullet procedure. That load really works well, too, but it leads the bore up a bit more. I also mentioned earlier that I got an RCBS 44-370-FN mould, but I haven't tried it out yet. For this hunting season, the Brooks mould is working very well, and hopefully through this winter I can get into the PP business. And BTW, a .437" pin gauge just fits the bore on the rifle, breech to muzzle; a .438" will not. It might have been gun laker who mentioned the pin gauges, and also using them for patching practice. I'll do that, got the Seth Cole paper and a template. Then, at some point this winter, I'll make the call to Steve Brooks for a proper PP mould.

Also, FWIW, I got 20 new 44/77 cases from BACO a week ago so I'd have some extras. They were made from 50/110 Starline cases. I also got a call from BACO telling me to send them back, as the rim specs were wrong. I did notice that the block on my rifle didn't quite close all the way as on the Jamison brass I have (good stuff). So I sent them back, and they said they'd send the right ones on to me once the problem was corrected.

[Hiwall55]

Hey ,sounds like you gents are having fun. Just got done loading for a 44-70 roller for a long range match in a couple of weeks and found a good load for my sharps 44/77 with a dual diameter PP, glad the hunt went well.

[ndnchf]

Hey ,sounds like you gents are having fun. Just got done loading for a 44-70 roller for a long range match in a couple of weeks and found a good load for my sharps 44/77 with a dual diameter PP, glad the hunt went well.

Do tell about your load! I just sent off my #1 roller sporting rifle to C.Sharps to get a new .44-77 Green Mountain barrel installed. I'm looking forward to working up a good PP load for it.

[Hiwall55]

Ive got a Green mountain barrel on my Shiloh, 430/441 wrapped to .4365 /4465 works very well with 78 grains of 1f OE.

[ndnchf]

What mold?

[Hiwall55]

I had Tom at Accurate molds make one to try.

[R-71]

I don’t have a PP bullet group to post but here’s a recent GG group I shot with a new RCBS 44-370 mold that I picked up. It’s a good bullet but the nose is to fat and I have to seat it pretty deep to get it chamber. I shot this at 100 yards.

I need to drift my front sight slightly since the tang sight is not windage adjustable.

272073

[Don McDowell]

I can't get that bullet to chamber in my 44-77/s, but I think it would make a grand hunting bullet for a greaser.

[ndnchf]

My original #1 Sporting rifle just came back from C. Sharps with a new 32" #4 profile .44-77 GM barrel. If I can get out of work early today, I'll stop by the range for an initial test firing. I bought 80 rounds of PCI loaded .44-77, mostly to get the Jamison brass. They are loaded with RCBS 44-370 bullets. I have no idea what powder they are loaded with, but I pulled apart 20 of them and dumped the powder. Then reloaded them with 75.5gr of Swiss 1.5F, a .030" card wad, compressed .185". Relubed the RCBS bullets and seated to the crimp groove where they will chamber. I'm more interested in PP than greasers, but this will be a start. I've got some PP bullets from BACO to try after these. I'm not a competition shooter, I just shoot for fun out to 200 yards.

[Distant Thunder]

Nice looking rifle and great cartridge choice! I can guarantee the .44-77 is a lot of fun to shoot and especially so with paper patch bullets! Very COOL rifle and cartridge. ENJOY!

It will be interesting to see how the Green Mountain barrel works out. I went with a Krieger which has is 17-twist also. Have you checked the bore and groove diameters on your barrel yet?

Range reports to follow?

Nice rifle!

[ndnchf]

I stopped at the range on the way home from work to try it out. I shot 10 rounds at 50 yards to get the sights on target, then moved to 100. It was 34 degrees and breezy - my fingers felt like ice. While nothing to rave about, I'm pleased with it for a first outing. Besides one shot I pulled right, it did very well. This was with the RCBS 44-370 bullets. Since this is PP thread, I won't dwell on this bullet. Now I have some brass for the PP bullets.

[Lead pot]

That is a good start with a great cartridge. Now just keep up the range time and you will cut that X out with those 5 holes. The .44-77 will do that.

[Don McDowell]

I would of liked to have shot that bullet in my 44-77's, but the mould I have and use in the 43 egyptian, the nose is to big and won't fit in the bore of the Shiloh's.

[ndnchf]

I'm really looking forward to getting back to the range with it. This bullet needs to be fully seated up to the crimp groove to chamber. That is about. 440" inside the case.

The PP bullets I have from BACO are 380gr, but a bit larger than I want at .441". I bought these for the old barrel. I'll have to check my paper supply to see if I have any thin enough to use. I'll probably order some .432", 370gr to try. Ive had good success with bullets patched to bore diameter in my .40-70bn.

[Distant Thunder]

I've been having very good results in my .44-77 when I patch my bullet so they are just a touch snug in the bore of my rifle and the seat them .100" to .150" in the case over very lightly compressed Swiss 1 1/2. I have found that the .44-77 is not real fussy about the seating depth, not like my straight cased .45s, and I have even had good results with bore diameter pp bullets seated up to .330" deep.

The nice thing about this is that it gives a lot of flexibility in powder charge without having some sort of wad stack or filler, neither of which have I ever had any luck with.

With the .44-77 I have loaded from 75 to 86 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and had good to excellent accuracy as long as the compression is kept light to almost none. My current load is with 86 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 under a .060" LDPE wad lightly compressed and the bullet seated .150" deep and is approaching a 1 MOA 10-shot group at 220 yards. I am looking forward to testing in at greater distances once the warm weather gets, probably another 4 to 5 months. :sad:

[ndnchf]

DT - when you say "a touch snug in the bore", do you mean just a tad over bore diameter?

[Lead pot]

Don I used one for my Dutch Beaumont rifle if I still have that mould I will cast a few and send you some. I will look through my fishing tackle boxes I keep my moulds in. It shot well in that rifle.
But I don't know if I sold it with the rifle or not.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks for the offer Kurt, but I don't really want nor need those bullets.

[Don McDowell]

My original #1 Sporting rifle just came back from C. Sharps with a new 32" #4 profile .44-77 GM barrel. If I can get out of work early today, I'll stop by the range for an initial test firing. I bought 80 rounds of PCI loaded .44-77, mostly to get the Jamison brass. They are loaded with RCBS 44-370 bullets. I have no idea what powder they are loaded with, but I pulled apart 20 of them and dumped the powder. Then reloaded them with 75.5gr of Swiss 1.5F, a .030" card wad, compressed .185". Relubed the RCBS bullets and seated to the crimp groove where they will chamber. I'm more interested in PP than greasers, but this will be a start. I've got some PP bullets from BACO to try after these. I'm not a competition shooter, I just shoot for fun out to 200 yards.

I would suggest for your stated purpose with that rifle, a mould 434 diameter, 1.1 inch long bullet, wrap it in 8 lb paper cut the patch width at 3/4 in wide. look at powder charges around 75 grs. to start with and let the target tell you what to do next.

[ndnchf]

Thanks Don. BACO only has .432" and .438" size. Before ordering a mold. I'd like to try some. Do you know of a source for .434" size bullets of that length? Thanks Steve

[Distant Thunder]

DT - when you say "a touch snug in the bore", do you mean just a tad over bore diameter?

It's a fine line between too tight and just snug to feel some resistance when you chamber each round. Paper can vary a little even with each sheet. The method used to wrap your bullets can vary some too so the wrapped bullet can vary when your done. With a bullet that was right on the edge of being too big I've had trouble chambering some. To get around that I push my patched bullets through a sizing die (Lee type) and then they are all uniform.

The bore of my Krieger barrel is just a shade over .438", probably only a couple 10 thousandths of an inch. and my size die makes the bullets .438" and they will push thru the bore with a little pressure, but won't slide thru on their own. When I chamber a round I can feel the bullet as it enters the bore and it is an easy push with my thumb.

So It's best not to get them too tight, but just at or half a thousandth under bore should be pretty good. You might be able to chamber them at 1/2 thousandth over bore, maybe, but you'll eventually have some that won't chamber completely or are a hard push. If you have to push too hard you can actually push the bullet deeper in the case and compress the powder more and changing compression can effect accuracy. I learned that from Kurt after spending a year struggling to get things to shoot with any consistency.

You need to know your bore (land) diameter and get a mold or use paper that will fit your bore with some resistance. I found that by sizing a bullet that patches to just over my bore diameter gave me a much more consistent fit and better accuracy.

With my .44-77 I started with a mold that cast at .4305" and patching with my 9 lb. paper was close but not snug at about .4375". It shot pretty well but I was getting an outlier or two in all my groups, 1 in a 5 shot groups and 1 or 2 in 10 shot groups. At first I figured I was pulling my shots off just a bit. They were only an inch or slightly more out of the group. No matter what I did or how hard I tried I could seem to eliminate those outliers.

I finally decided the bullet was a bit to small as cast so I opened it up to cast at .432" and patch to .439". Then I polished my sizing die out to size the patched bullets to .438 and since then I have not had an outlier at all in several 10 shot groups at 220 yards. I have believed for a long time that fit is very important to accuracy in pp target loads and this rifle has set that in stone for me.

For hunting loads with hunting accuracy you need a looser fit to overcome the fouling problems for follow up shots, but for targets when you have time to wipe the bore clean between shots a snug fit has given the best accuracy no question and that's in 4 different rifles. The following targets are where I'm at with this .44-77 now. It's shooting pretty well!

276380

276381

Find out what your bore diameter is as close as you can and get a mold and/or paper that will fit YOUR bore and give that a try.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks Don. BACO only has .432" and .438" size. Before ordering a mold. I'd like to try some. Do you know of a source for .434" size bullets of that length? Thanks Steve
No I really don't. Those .432's probably work ok if you patch them in 9lb.

[ndnchf]

DT - thanks for the detailed description. I see BACO has the .432" 400gr in stock, so I'll order a couple boxes to try out. I have several types of paper to try. GM says their barrel is .438"/.446", but I'll slug it to know for sure. I've had good luck with my Shiloh #3 in .40-70bn, so I'm hoping that in time, this can give me similar results. I've got cataracts in my shooting eye that's making it difficult. But I may get that fixed this summer. Here is my best .40-70 target.

Don - I saw your reply on CASCITY too, thanks for the details.

[ndnchf]

I slugged the barrel - . 4375" bore, .446" groove. Now I know what I'm working with :-)

[Lead pot]

Jim,

My new lot of Swiss 1.5 is pretty consistent with different amounts of weight and compression. I worked several ladder loads to re test the results and they all show very close to the same results you see with the 200 yard ladder loads below.
But they are not up to the 1.5 OE yet
These were shot using the Shiloh Farmer with the 17 twist barrel.
I see a lot of mention to 9#,8# 7# paper. I found that the weight varies a bunch with some manufactures. I have 9# paper that is .0017" thick and .0021". I have 7# Southworth typewriter copy paper that .0018" thick.
To keep the groups tight like Jim said the release of the bullet from the case makes a difference. The major problem is the case neck thickness variances. Keeping bullet diameters consistent is easy by doing what Jim said, run them through a die and I don't see any difference if the paper is .0017" or .0021" as long as the patched bullet is the same diameter.
My 100% cotton cocker finish Southworth paper is running out as well as the 75% cotton .0018" thick but I ordered several reams of South worth onion skin paper that runs from .002 to .0022" thick depending where you put the mic so the bullet gets pushed through a die. It makes a difference.
Loading rounds stable for match shooting can make you chase your tail like a dog getting after a flea.

276396276397

[Distant Thunder]

When I talked to GM they told me that their .44 barrels run on the tight side. That's fine you just have to match your bullets to the bore using the right paper.

Once you wrap a bullet you'll know how much a particular paper adds. My 9 lb. adds .007". I believe Seth Cole 55W adds about .005", I'd have to check my notes. If that is right the 55W on a .432 bullet will be close depending on how you wrap, wet or dry. I dry wrap all mine, but both ways work very well.

Nice group with your .40-70! With that GM barrel your .44-77 should do as well. Being a 17 twist you can go to 1.470" long on your bullets easy. 17 twist is perfect in a .44.

Whatever diameter bullet with whatever paper you use you want it to be a light push through your barrel ideally. That's what works best for me anyway. I use 9 lb. because early on in my paper patching I bought a lifetime supply. I have other papers, but I've got a lot of 9 lb.

[ndnchf]

I have a three different PP bullets coming. Two are .432" diameter, the other .433". I'm going to patch close to bore diameter of .438", maybe .439". My fired cases are about .447" at the mouth. I can neck size with a .45ACP dies to bring this down a little, but a .438/9" patched bullet will still be loose. Would it be ok to size them in a .43 Spanish die? It has a .438" expander? Or is there a better way to get proper neck tension on the .438/9" size patched bullet?
Thanks,
Steve

[ndnchf]

I ran a junk case through the 43 Spanish sizer and 3 expander. The case mouth came out at .438". I don't want to full length resize every time, but this is a start. I have a couple ideas for ways to make an appropriate neck sizer.

[Distant Thunder]

Steve,

I think if you run the case up in your .43 Spanish die so it only sizes the neck down about 1/8 inch that it would work fine without FL sizing. With the die backed off to size an 1/8" the expander should work fine. That is basically what I do with the neck sizing die I made (from an existing die) except I don't use an expander and I have the bullet in the case when I size it. I can still pull the bullet from the case with just my fingers and reseat it without trouble. It's really a perfect fit.

You would be working the brass a little more by sizing it smaller than .438 ID and then expanding it out to .438 so you may not want to do that long term. Ultimately a neck sizing die that would size it to a .438-.439 ID would be best.

[Don McDowell]

Think you might be happier taking the expander button out of a lee 43 Mauser die.

[ndnchf]

Jim, I think you are right, backing off the 43 Spanish die to just size a litte of the neck would do the trick.

Don, I have the Lee 43 Mauser dies too. The expander is .445" which would be fine for
.446" greasers, but too big I think for bore size PP bullets.

[Don McDowell]

I use the 43 Mauser size die minus the expander.

[ndnchf]

Ah, got it.

I have 3 different papers to try out. I'll see how they come out, then start with the 43 Mauser sizer. If too loose, I'll go to the Spanish.

Thanks guys, I appreciate your insight and advice.

[Don McDowell]

I also set that Mauser die to only size the neck about as far as the base of the bullet will be.

[ndnchf]

That makes perfect sense. Being patched to bore diameter and just for target use, I only need to seat the bullet deep enough to hold it in place - maybe 3/16" - 1/4".

[Distant Thunder]

I have found the .44-77 to be very forgiving when it comes to seating depth, more so that my straight cased .45s.

It is my experience that most factory sizing dies really overly size the case mouths and then rely on the expander to bring them back out to a good diameter for JACKETED bullets. I shoot very few jacketed bullets anymore and find cast serve me much better in the cartridges I enjoy shooting and for what I enjoy shooting at. I have opened up the necks on several of my sizing dies so they don't size the necks down so much and now they only size them enough so that when I use a separate expander die (2 diameter type) they only need to be opened up a little to give me the fit I need for my cast bullets. It makes my cases last long and results in better accuracy.

With that in mind Don is right, the Mauser die would be a better choice depending on what size you end up with with your brass. Best to patch your bullets to fit your bore and size your brass to fit your bullets. Then everything should work pretty well. There is always a way to make things work, you just have to find the best way. That is often the simplest way.

[Don McDowell]

It works for hunting loads to.
Intersting note on this seating depth thing I've mentioned this before so those that have read it can skip on now.
I have a bullet a well know collector and rifle builder sent me 10 or so years ago, out of the blue, after he read all the flack I was getting for just wanting a 44-77 and despite all the bandwidth burned by the keyboard experts telling me not to get it. Anyway it's a pull down from an original 44-77 Creedmoor round. The bullet is .438 diameter, 1.3 inches long and weighs right at 460 grains. Under close examination you can see where the bullet sat in the case for all those years, and that case mouth mark is just exactly 1/2 inch above the base of the bullet.
After a good bit of frustration trying to get the 44 to shoot consistently well , it dawned on me to duplicate that bullet length and seating depth, get a bullet at the diameter to fit that Shiloh rifle, and shizzam, things quickly came together.
Your 17 twist will handle a longer bullet, but don't get caught up on this bullet must be seated shallow stuff to shoot well. It's simply not true.

[ndnchf]

Don - just so I'm clear - that original .438" diameter is patched diameter right?

FYI - The bullets I have coming are straight side:
- 370gr, .432" diameter
- 388gr, .433" diameter
- 400gr, .432" diameter.

The patching papers I have are .0018", .002", .0025".

Later today I'll take my junk case and expand it back out to .446", then run it through the .43 Mauser die without the expander to see what ID I get.

[Don McDowell]

No that's the bare bullet. It won't fit in the barrel of the bore of my Shiloh. But keep in mind that the original rifles barrels are a lot of time larger than what we get today. I have a couple of friends with original Remington creedmoor guns, that the groove diameter is .450. One of them also has an original Sharps but he has not measured the bore/groove diameter of the rifle. Sad part is he's mostly a collector and his gun room is about as good as any museum you can ever venture into, except for maybe better because you are welcome to take any of those rifles off the rack and handle them.
.432 diameter bullets work pretty fair when I wrapped them in Paper Mill 9# cotton rag paper, but out past 3-400 yards they started having trouble. But for hunting purpose they worked fine other than the problem of getting them to stay in the case.
I finally ended up with .434 or .435 bullets wrapped in 8 lb paper, Seth Cole 55w, as what works the best across the board in both of my rifles.
When this weather ever clears up I plan to go to work with this new Shiloh,I have yet to shoot, but as I fully expected rounds all ready built for the others drop right in the chamber, and see what it'll do with those same bullets wrapped in Seth Cole 55Y which is thinner than the 55w. That paper has shown a definite improvement in the 40's,44-90 st, and all three of the 45 chambers I shoot.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I am as guilty as anyone in spreading the shallow seating idea. That is what works very well in my .40-65, .45-70 and .45-90, but is not so much true in my .44-77. I understand seating deeper in military and hunting loads but that idea in target loads was contrary to what if found in my other cases. When I tried it in my .44-77 after talking with you I was surprised just how well it works.

I first started to really want a .44-77 in 2004, but, like you, my "friends" talked me out of it. It took me 16 years to "circle back around" to a .44-77 and I am so happy I didn't listen to all the naysayers last year when I went for it. It's not a cartridge for beginners and I'm not sure I would have done as well with it 16 years ago, I've learned a few things since then, but with your help and Kurt's too I have had a great time working with this awesome cartridge and paper patch bullets.

I have found the .44-77 to be very accurate, extremely versatile and fairly easy to load for. The big obstacle is all the misinformation and down right bad information out there. If I've learned anything with the internet it is how to sift the BS from the good stuff.

[ndnchf]

Thanks for the clarification Don.

Deeper seating depth - ok. I'll have to determine the depth after I get the bullets. I'll be using .030" card wads and probably not use a grease cookie, but maybe a dry lube wad. I'll wipe between shots.

[Don McDowell]

Jim the 44-77 is oft maligned , but mostly by folks that have never shot one, or those that didn't take the time to actually check the barrel measurements of those original rifles, and match the bullet to those measurements and twist.
The seating depth thing really does boil down to what the rifle likes. In my ventures with paper patching it appears that with the straight sided bullets, as long as the leading 1/8 inch or so of the paper engraves the rifling, things are probably good to go.
I've found the seating depth that works for my rifles, and if it doesn't work for others then so be it. I can only report what my rifles are telling me, and if someone else's rifle doesn't like that combo, that's just the way of the world, and I'm good with that.

[Yellowhouse]

Another vote for the .43 Mauser die to tighten up.

Don, was that Creedmoor bullet straight sided or tapered?

BTW, my original Roller is .452 groove.....I think they pretty much all were and you can't chamber a .446 greaser unless you have the thin neck brass. Jamison will do but some of the earlier BACO reformed .348 was too thick.

[ndnchf]

I opened up the test practice case with a .445" expander, then ran it into the 43 Mauser sizer with no expander installed. The neck ID is now .442". So there is .004" difference between this and the same case run through the 43 Spanish die with a .438" expander. This all good data to have in hand when I start patching :-)

[Distant Thunder]

YH,

What is the bore diameter of your original roll? Those old rollers can have some pretty stout rifling.

[ndnchf]

The original barrel? I don't know, never measured it. Since it had a damaged chamber, I didn't do much with it.

[Lead pot]

The thing with the originals especially the Rollers and Hepburns the bore and groove diameters are larger than the Sharps.
I had two original rifle chamber casts made from rifles documented that were used for the Creedmoor matches, one was with the Remington Special that was a bottlenecked case shorter then the Sharps .44-90 and the groove diameter was .452" with a .446" bore diameter. The other was the .44-2-5/8" that was a Rolling block that had a .442/450 bore groove with a 3.5º chamber end into the throat and this one I sent to PT&G to make a reamer with the cast dimensions but I had them change it for the .438"/.446 with a 4º transition and had the case neck dimensions reduced accordingly and the .438 patched bullet will not fall from the fired case holding it upside down.
With the bottle necked cases, both the .44-77's and the .44-90's I tend to seat deeper than the straight walled cases but I keep the wads no less then 1/8" to 3/16" above the shoulder in the neck and the ladder loads V out with the bullet usually held 3/16".
I personally don't see a problem with my 19 twist .44-77 and .44-90bn shooting a 1.4" long bullet. The .44-90 bn 19 twist will shoot an elliptical very well at the 1K line but the .44-77 needs to have the blunter nosed like the original Sharps bullet profile and it will shoot well as far as the barrel sights will reach. I have sent a lot of rounds down range at the Quigley and the Mt. 1000 seeing how they perform out of the 19 twist .44-77 and the 90. But like I said the larger capacity case of the 19 twist .44-90 bn does just as well as both of may 17 and one 16 twist .44-77 and the .44-90bn.
Ogive profile makes a big difference with performance. I will shoot a blunter nosed bullet over a sleek long nosed bullet anytime, and I have both types.

[Lead pot]

This is the bullet profile I use in the 19 twist .44-77
Sharps offered a 300 gr to 475 gr 1.39/128" long swaged. close to 1 5/16" I just like the Sharps profile.
276846

This is what the 16, 17 and 19 twist .44-90 bn shoots well. I don't know for sure if sharps used the 19 or 22 twist in their rifles. I been looking and asked collectors what the ROT was and I always got the shrug of the shoulders :D
Sharps offered a 1.13/32" long bullet for the .44-2-5/8bn at 520 gr. swaged
276847

The top cast is the Shiloh Rifle chamber cast and the bottom is the cloned Remington chamber cast.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks for the clarification Don.

Deeper seating depth - ok. I'll have to determine the depth after I get the bullets. I'll be using .030" card wads and probably not use a grease cookie, but maybe a dry lube wad. I'll wipe between shots.
The muzzle loader original dry lubed felt wads work good for me. The 44 caliber wads for the 44 and 45 caliber rifles. The 36 cal wads work great in 40 caliber rifles.

[Don McDowell]

Another vote for the .43 Mauser die to tighten up.

Don, was that Creedmoor bullet straight sided or tapered?

BTW, my original Roller is .452 groove.....I think they pretty much all were and you can't chamber a .446 greaser unless you have the thin neck brass. Jamison will do but some of the earlier BACO reformed .348 was too thick.

Sam it's a the atypical tapered Sharps bullet. The taper isn't terribly steep. If you try to drop it in the muzzle of one of the Shiloh's it will only enter maybe 1/3 of the bullet length.

[ndnchf]

As a point of historical interest, I slugged the bore of the original Remington .44-77 barrel that was removed from my rifle. It measures:
Groove - .4485"
Bore - .439"

[Don McDowell]

That's good info.

[reinert]

Been a spell, but I thought I'd check in again and report on my old Remington 44 roller. I just got my new Brooks PP mould yesterday; adjustable (approx. 450-500 grn.), dual dia., with a flat base. My bore measured @ .437" and the example bullet Steve sent from my mould measures right @ .438" for the bore shank before the taper starts. I have a patch template I got from Buffalo Arms a while back, so I cut out a patch and messed with the rolling (first time for this business). No matter what I did, the template size was near an 1/8th" short of coming around to meet where I started. So, I guess I'll need to make a longer template. I also have a bullet sizer coming to size @ .437," if needed.

I took one of my new, unfired Jamison cases and ran it through my .445 neck expander die, and that patched new bullet as Steve sent me right from the mould, slipped nicely in the case neck. I then seated the patched bullet out of the case neck to where the overall cartridge length was set @ 3.30." Seems the paper is just starting to engage the rifling there as I mess with it, on the ogive. Do I want the bullet to engage at the taper area as the diameter decreases? Or, is it just to start playing and see what the old gun wants to make me happy as far as C.O.A.L.? Should I just try the bullet right from the mould, as cast? Also, I plan on trying the grease cookie business, and was thinking to try the SPG tropical for the cookies. So I guess here it starts to make the proper ammo for the old gun. Anything anyone might add as I start down the trail? Thanks, you guys have been absolutely great on the info shared on this thread.

[Don McDowell]

If the leading edge of the paper engages the rifling when you chamber the round that's about where you want to be, so long as the paper comes pretty close to or just short of the ogive. I would suggest just wrapping it as cast, wrapping and go.

[Distant Thunder]

reinert,

Just so I'm following you correctly, the bore (land diameter) of your rifle slugs at .437"? The sample bullet Steve sent with your mold measures at .438" diameter unpatched?

What is the patched diameter of your new bullet? I just want to be sure I understand what you're working with before I say anything.

[Distant Thunder]

As a point of historical interest, I slugged the bore of the original Remington .44-77 barrel that was removed from my rifle. It measures:
Groove - .4485"
Bore - .439"

That is interesting. Most original rollers I have heard about have way oversize groove diameters and I have never seen anything posted about the bore diameters. Yours is not that far out of line with the dimensions in most modern rifles chambered in .44-77.

[Distant Thunder]

BTW, my original Roller is .452 groove.....I think they pretty much all were and you can't chamber a .446 greaser unless you have the thin neck brass. Jamison will do but some of the earlier BACO reformed .348 was too thick.

Yellowhouse,

Do you know what the bore diameter is for your original roller? I often see that they have groove diameters like yours but I never see any thing about the bore diameter. Also I'd like to know what diameter bullet will fit in your fireformed cases? Thanks

[ndnchf]

That is interesting. Most original rollers I have heard about have way oversize groove diameters and I have never seen anything posted about the bore diameters. Yours is not that far out of line with the dimensions in most modern rifles chambered in .44-77.

I was a little surprised myself. From what I've read, I expected groove diameter to be around .450" or larger. The bore is in pretty nice condition too.

[Distant Thunder]

This is the bullet profile I use in the 19 twist .44-77
Sharps offered a 300 gr to 475 gr 1.39/128" long swaged. close to 1 5/16" I just like the Sharps profile.
276846


Kurt,

I want a bullet that looks just like the ones in those cartridges in the box! That is how a .44-77 bullet should look. I like it!

[reinert]

Don, that's pretty much on the money as you've stated, as I've done and found.

Distant T., Yes, and yes, and the patched bullet measures exactly @ .444" on the shank before it starts its taper.

[reinert]

And BTW, the patch paper is the Seth Cole 55w.

[Distant Thunder]

reinert,

So you'll be working with a bullet closer to groove diameter rather than a bore diameter ppb. I would think you'd want that to up into, as in touching, the rifling as much as possible. If you're going to put a grease cookie and wads in there you just need to make sure none of that is below the neck/shoulder junction, but it sounds like the bullet is more than an inches out of the case at 3.300" COAL.

I don't know what your chamber looks like but if I'm understanding you correctly so far what you've got there should work. The bullet will bump up to fill whatever space is ahead of you case mouth and before your rifling starts and should then fill your grooves.

[Don McDowell]

Here’s what most of my 44-77 with the dual diameter Brooks billets look likehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210206/3f12a261cd5eeadbf78d26676a05dd3a.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Yellowhouse]

YH,

What is the bore diameter of your original roll? Those old rollers can have some pretty stout rifling.

I remember right its at .442. The rifling is very shallow compared modern. I'll have to re-slug as I lost my notebook

[Distant Thunder]

Ok, it's a 2-D bullet! That makes sense. I thought he was for some reason going with a more or less groove diameter. I believe I have some of your 2-D bullets, Don. Yep that will work. I'd have to go back and reread all the posts, my memory doesn't always work and when it does it can't always be trusted. It's a good thing I'm not really old,... yet!

[Lead pot]

Ok, it's a 2-D bullet! That makes sense. I thought he was for some reason going with a more or less groove diameter. I believe I have some of your 2-D bullets, Don. Yep that will work. I'd have to go back and reread all the posts, my memory doesn't always work and when it does it can't always be trusted. It's a good thing I'm not really old,... yet!

:D and it gets worse when you get up to 81 :D

[Yellowhouse]

I was a little surprised myself. From what I've read, I expected groove diameter to be around .450" or larger. The bore is in pretty nice condition too. Does that barrel have 5 lands and grooves....it should if its original.

[Yellowhouse]

Distant Thunder

Inside diameter of fired case in original roller is .442

Diameter of same in standard chambered Shiloh is .4465

[Distant Thunder]

Distant Thunder

Inside diameter of fired case in original roller is .442

Diameter of same in standard chambered Shiloh is .4465

Yellowhouse,

So the case would accept a bore diameter bullet (or close to it), but not a groove diameter bullet. This is something that I've wondered about every time I read that someone has one of these original .44-77 that has a groove diameter that is way bigger than any bullet they can chamber. Were these originals chamber that way for using paper patch bullets?

I have a .45-70 that is chambered with that idea in mind. It shoots pretty well. You could not chamber a bullet larger than .452 at most.

I believe Sharps only loaded paper patch bullets in their .44-77s. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Did Remington offer a grease groove bullets loaded for the .44-77? All the old pictures I've seen of .44-2 1/4 cartridges have been loaded with paper patch bullets. Very interesting.

[ndnchf]

Does that barrel have 5 lands and grooves....it should if its original.

Yes it does. It is the original barrel.

[reinert]

When I put my order in to Steve, we had a good visit on what I wanted for the mould. He suggested the dual dia. bullet as the rifle was going to be used primarily for hunting, and so he thought the DD might allow me a couple of extra shots, if needed, shooting dirty. Hopefully, that might could work out once I get familiar and confident in the PP reloads and figure out what the old gun likes. I also know that all wads, compression and cookies need to be confined in the case neck. Most of all, I just want to have fun with this great old rifle, and will do my best to figure a good PP load. If need be, though, and while working on paper patch, I know the gun shoots quite well with the Brooks GG bullet I've got. I did make a good shot on a whitetail doe last fall at around 70 yds. Through both ribs and out on a perfect broadside pose. She went about 30 yds. and gave up the ghost. Looking forward to next season already, hopefully using a PP round. Thanks again for sharing info. Probably need some more as I go along here.

BTW, Don, the dummy round I made up that I've got on my desk right now looks a lot like yours... but that's certainly as far as that goes at this point. Also, I asked Steve to put a bit of meplat on the bullet, and since it's a nose pour, it came out to be right at 1/8." Should be a great hunting bullet.

[Don McDowell]

reinert, with that bullet, set on top of 77 grs of the old Express 2f, a .030 fiber wad and one of the muzzle loader original dry lubed felt wads, expose portion of the patch wiped with a bit of jojoba oil, then wiped off with a dry towel, you can shoot a lot of rounds with just blowing in the breech. I used that combination once at the BPTR nationals, at 200 yards wiped with a patch on a brush every 5th shot, and blowtubed between the rest I fired a 97 2x, and should of been a 100x3, but someone pulled the trigger just about the time the sights settled on the last shot, and it came up a 7... LOL
That bullet will knock the bejeebers out of elk, and antelope, never have shot a deer with it.

Jim I'm thinking I gave you a pretty good bunch of the bullets when I was there at Lodi.

[Distant Thunder]

Don, you did give me several different kinds of pp bullets to try including some of those 2-D bullets and some .45 2-D bullets.

The .45 bullets I will try one of these days in my old .45-70 that is the only BPCR I own that has refused to play nice with paper patch. I have not tried a 2-D bullet in it but those you gave me should work if anything is ever going to. I just need to get at it.

I had planned to try the 2-D .44s this winter when I was working on a hunting load for my .44-2 1/4, I believe I have 15 or 17 of those. I didn't want to try them until I had some idea of a working hunting load and I was getting close to getting that working when this new Metford design mold came. That bullet started shooting very well right out of the gate. Then the Shiloh postal match kicked off and I got all caught up in that. I've taken that about as far as I can until warm weather and some matches start where I can shoot some distance and refine my fouling control with this .44, which I think I've got figured out.

I should have gone back to the hunting load development but somehow I picked up my Ruger #1 .375 H&H and a nice little 300 grain paper patch mold I made a few years go and never got around to trying. The bullet is along the original Sharps LR paper patch design. It looks pretty cool sitting in those long .375 cases. I'm not trying to hotrod them just pushing them at about 1500 fps.

So the .375 H&H is just sitting there while the temps have dropped into the single digits for daytime highs and minus double digits for the over night lows! Too dang cold to shoot much, my fingers stiffen up real quick and I can tell if I'm pulling the trigger or not! I'll get to the .44 hunting loads again, I'd like to use that rifle this fall for deer.

I've got too many projects started and waiting their turn to be finished or at least moved along some. What's a man to do.

And now with the primer and powder shortage I'm not really wanting to just shoot up too much of what I have. When things ease up a bit I'll feel better about shooting just for fun.

[Don McDowell]

Jim that 45 dd can be a really good one, or sometimes the rifle says *** is that...
I hear ya on the projects, we built about 350 ft of buck rail fence this fall/winter when the weather was nice enough to play out side, just about have a chunk of corral fence rebuilt. If it doesn't snow to much tonite I plan to run into town to pickup some rough cut lumber , and posts.. Every time it's been fit enough to be outside, there's been other stuff to do, and still haven't fired a round thru my new 44-77. Looks like highs in the teens next week, and my gosh this has been a windy winter. Nice to be retired tho. LOL

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I have to say that being retired is the best job I've ever had!

I was building a new storage shed for firewood and my UTV and wood splitter plus a few other things that need to be under cover, but with the turn to real winter and bitter cold having settled in I'm planning on working indoors until this passes. I'm still stuck dismantling my shop and hauling junk to the transfer station (dump) but when I finish that, if I ever finish that, I should be free to work on my projects. Well, other than keeping up with maintaining everything around the house. That's never ending!

I am looking forward to shooting this 17 twist .44-2 1/4 this year in a few matches. Match schedules are slow in coming out so it is hard to say when and were.

[Don McDowell]

It is really nice to look out the window on mornings like this with snow on the ground more coming , wind and fog,10* temp, and realize I don't have to go load feed and find a bunch of old cows huddled up in a draw somewhere or get them called out of the pine trees to get them fed.
Alliance has their schedule out, BPTRA has their national matches on the schedule, and the Wy State midrange date is set but entry forms haven't come out yet. I did see where the Creedmoor 150 has set a date in late October.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how well that 44 will shoot at distance. If the drawing gods don't smile on me for moose again for about the 50th time this year, I may mount up soul sights and a Baldwin or DT front on this rifle and let it and the 77 split times going to what ever matches I can make when I don't go fishing.

[Yellowhouse]

Yellowhouse,

So the case would accept a bore diameter bullet (or close to it), but not a groove diameter bullet. This is something that I've wondered about every time I read that someone has one of these original .44-77 that has a groove diameter that is way bigger than any bullet they can chamber. Were these originals chamber that way for using paper patch bullets?

I have a .45-70 that is chambered with that idea in mind. It shoots pretty well. You could not chamber a bullet larger than .452 at most.

I believe Sharps only loaded paper patch bullets in their .44-77s. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Did Remington offer a grease groove bullets loaded for the .44-77? All the old pictures I've seen of .44-2 1/4 cartridges have been loaded with paper patch bullets. Very interesting.

Jim, I'm not aware of any greasers available until UMC came around in the 80's. All I see in Sellers and Marcots books were PPB. Probably were some early on but the fact remains Remington designed their rifles for tight chambered paper patch bullets.

Conversely the 50 and 45-70 govt were built for greasers first for the military. Factories offered paper patch loads later for sporting rifles. There were a few Rollers made in 45-70...wonder what the chambers on them look like? For that matter the Sharps

[Don McDowell]

The sharps catalogs do list a naked with 2 cannelures bullet for the 44's.

[Distant Thunder]

Yellowhouse,

That is what I have been thinking for a while, that the rollers and Sharps in .44-2 1/4 were set up for paper patch. I wonder if any other rifles for other cartridges were set up like this? .44-90? Any of the .40s?

I like the idea that the .44-2 1/4 was solely a pp bullet shooter! That's what I load in mine and it looks so COOL that way!

Now the other thing I'd like to know is, what twist rates did Sharps and Remington use in their .44-2 1/4 rifles? Anyone here know the answer to that?

They did not offer any really long (heavy) bullets in the .44-2 1/4. Sharps offered 380 and 405 grains paper patch loads only. Remington?

Sharps did go much heavier in their offerings for .44-2 5/8, 450 and 500 grain (hunting loads) and heavier for Creedmoor loads. How heavy I do not know.

The interesting thing to me is that they chambered rifles specifically for paper patch only. Tight chambers that are mistakenly called "loose groove diameter" today.

Thanks!

[Distant Thunder]

The sharps catalogs do list a naked with 2 cannelures bullet for the 44's.

What diameter were those "naked" bullets? Weights? Lengths? I need more information please!

I am assuming you're saying these were unloaded bullets?

[reinert]

Don,

I've got some of those "lubed," wool wads I use in my .44 Remington C&B revolver. Would those be worth a try? I know you mentioned the "dry" lubed wads; just wondering about what I have on hand to try out first. I used 1.5 fg Swiss in my hunting load with the Brooks GG bullet I have, and as I mentioned, it's a good hunting round. I also have the good ol' standard GOEX 2f I've used in both m.l.s and my Shilohs with fine, if a bit more dirty, success. Hard to beat that old standard. I've also got some OE 1.5 fg on hand to try out, too. And though just starting down this PP trail, I'll no doubt try the cookie business in the ongoing process at some point; never messed (pun intended?) with that b.p.c.r. part of reloads before. So, once I get the bullet factory set up again, and pour some of those slick missiles out of my new mould, I'll practice rolling the Seth Cole 55 cuts on the bullet Steve made me for the example from my mould. There's also a bullet in the mould he left there, sprue and all, for me to mess with too. I would imagine the mould is ready to go for heat without any additional prep, right from the maker. Steve also put a note in the box suggesting to use a 30:1 alloy for the bullet. I've been using 20:1 in all my GG bullets right along, with good success; too hard for PP? May try a few just because (what's in the pot for alloy at the present). Again, many thanks for this thread, and to all "in the know" on PP for sharing all the great info. Keep it going, especially for all us newbies learning to paper patch, proper.

One last question here: Would the SPG "Tropic" be a good choice for the lube cookie? Or a homemade recipe anyone could share? My GG bullet lube, which I prepare myself, wouldn't be stiff enough to make a good cookie (at least I don't think so; may try it). For what I plan for the old Remington's ammo, a pound of anything I'd buy commercially, would last me a long, long time. But on the same token, I like making my own stuff when I can, just because.

[Don McDowell]

They say the bullets weighed 297, you could get them as components , or in loaded ammunition.

[Don McDowell]

reinert, yes the 44 caliber muzzle loader original felt wads work great in the 44 and 45 caliber rifles, and if you mess with a 40 caliber rifle their 36 caliber wads work very well.
As for grease cookies, I don't know about that SPG tropic, seems a bit hard for that. Regular SPG, or DGL etc that are fairly soft. Melt some down, put some spent primers in the bottom of a small cookie sheet, and pour the melted lube in to the top of the primers. Let it cool, then take a charged case with the wad set on top of the charge and push the case thru the sheet of lube. Set your thin wad on top and seat it and the grease cookie with a muzzle loader short starter. Seat the the bullet and go.
If you look at the old recipes that used beeswax and spermicciti , just substitute jojoba for the spermiciiti.
75 grs of OE 1 1/2 is a good starter load.
For the majority of the 44 bullets I patch with a patch 3/4 inch wide.

[ndnchf]

A while back I bought 80 rounds of loaded PCI .44-77, primarily for the Jamison brass. I needed to shoot it and get the brass fireformed. Its shoulder is a little further back than my chamber. I went to the range this morning to shoot this and a grease groove load. The PCI ammo is mildly loaded with smokeless and RCBS 44-370 bullets. This is only the second time out with the new GM barrel, so it is still breaking in. But I was pleasantly surprised how well the PCI RCBS .44-77 shot. This is only 100 yards, but its a good start. Now I have a good set of fireformed cases for my paper patch loads.

[reinert]

Thanks Don, all good, all 'round. Good idea on the lube thickness in a pan... I'll try hard not to get a spent cap in a cut wad! Ha! :mrgreen:

[Don McDowell]

ndnchf, that roller looks as tho it's going to treat you very well.

reinert if you try those felt wads it is interesting how yellow they are in the bag, and when you recover one after you fire, they are snow white, and if a person really wanted to I suppose you could reuse them, albeit without the lube.

[ndnchf]

391gr, 1.125" long tapered bullets patched to .438" at the base over 77.0gr of Swiss 1.5 compressed .100" with a .030" card wad. I neck sized the case with a .45acp sizer. Still a little looser than I'd like, but its a start.

[Don McDowell]

Looks pretty good

[Distant Thunder]

391gr, 1.125" long tapered bullets patched to .438" at the base over 77.0gr of Swiss 1.5 compressed .100" with a .030" card wad. I neck sized the case with a .45acp sizer. Still a little looser than I'd like, but its a start.

Just a suggestion on one thing to watch for and just trying to help. It looks like your patches may be a little far up the sides of the bullets. You'll know better by looking at your recovered patches after shooting. If they are not cut all the way to the leading edge you may want to pull them back some when you patch the next batch.

Otherwise they sure look good from here. It's hard to beat the .44-77 loaded with paper patch bullets for COOL! you gotta love it!

[ndnchf]

Thanks for the tip. I'll check the confetti!

[Lead pot]

They sure look good to me also. The lap of your patch is right from what I can see.
But like Jim said the patch looks like a little far up on the ogive but I think they will do well.
Take your cast bullet unwrapped and lay it on a smooth surface like a mirror or smooth countertop and take a sheet of your paper and slide it under the nose of the bullet and where it makes contact to the shank that will be a good place to hold the patch or even .005" farther back to the shank.
The double wrap of the paper should hold the bare nose above the bore if your using at least 1/16 tin/lead alloy.
Man those BN cases and that good looking bullet should make you smile when you see the results.

I don't know if you ever mentioned who made the mould. And what is the weight? Is that a tapered Gibs?

[ndnchf]

Thats a great tip for setting the paper length - thanks. These bullets were sent to me to try out by a very generous fellow shooter. I'm told they are from a BACO adjustable mold. They weigh 391gr. Im waiting on a shipment from BACO with two different PP bullets to try. But this gives me something to get started with. I also have 100 more pieces of Jamison brass coming.

[Yellowhouse]

I have problems chambering .446 bullets from the RCBS 370 mold in my Shiloh 44-77 and two .44 rollers with GM barrels unless the driving band is seated well below the case neck. In my 44-70 with a PP chamber it won't chamber regardless because of the too large diameter in the nose. In fact, I've given up on that mold and bought one from Accurate molds with a .434 nose and that works fine

[ndnchf]

For some reason the PCI loaded rounds had the RCBS 44-370 bullet loaded out about .070" from the crimp groove. They would not chamber. I had to seat them to the crimp groove, OAL 2.850". Then they loaded fine and shot great as shown above.

[ndnchf]

I made an interesting discovery today. It was bugging me that the patched bullets were just a little loose in the case. So I started going through all my die sets (at least 30 sets) looking for a die that would tighten up the neck a little. Literally the last set I checked was an RCBS .44-40 set - Bingo! The .44-40 sizer minus the depriming rod was perfect. I ran the loaded cases in about .250". It made the bullets just snug enough that I can turn them by hand with a little resistance, but they won't fall out :grin:

[reinert]

ndnchf,

Let us know your results on paper (the downrange paper, that is) when you try those loads out. I'm quite curious on your results. Amazing what I have for die parts to make my old .44 roller perform, too. I've got a good load for my hunting GG bullet, and hopefully I've got all I need for reloading components for the PP project, also.

So, then to all the great paper patch mentors here:

I have one more question before I can get my bullet factory set up to run some bullets, and make some real deal rounds to send downrange. My new Steve Brooks adjustable DD mould, (which is set at the max: example bullet weighs 498 grns. using a 30:1 alloy from my mould) was a design decision decided on through a conversation with Steve on what this PP bullet was specifically for. It is for hunting, and being able to shoot dirty with the possibility of a couple/few follow up shots if needed whilst following a wounded critter (yeah, I DO try my utmost to be the "one shot one kill" hunter, but it's still good to have a contingency plan). Anyway, that's the idea. So, here's the question:
Do I need to patch JUST the shank of the bullet up to the point where the diameter reduction starts? Or do I patch beyond it a bit? Is this where experimentation starts? My bullet's O.A.L. is 1.320" (again, that's max adjustment for the mould) and as near as I can tell/measure/guess, the shank diameter of .438" runs .475" of the bullet's length. So, should I patch just a tad beyond that shank diameter? Would the reduction starting from the shank diameter then be considered where my "real" ogive begins and patch accordingly to that?

Hope I asked the right question here, and even more so, hopefully you can understand what I asked.

Thanks much,
reinert

[Don McDowell]

It might take a little trial and error but probably start with your patch 7/8 in wide
Wrap a bullet seat it in a case and chamber it
See how much of the leading edge of the patch engages the rifling
Adjust the patch width so that at least a 10th of an inch is in the rifling


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[reinert]

Got it, Don. Thank ye kindly! And yea, we go...

[Don McDowell]

You’re welcome
If you scroll back up to the picture I posted of the dual diameter from brooks you’ll get a fair idea of how my loaded rounds for the 44 look


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[reinert]

Will do! 👍

[ndnchf]

It seems all 4 patch papers I have are a little too thick for the BACO bullets. I got online last night and ordered Seth Cole 55y and 55w, but it will probably take a week or so to get here. Does anyone know if Staples or Office Depot carries a suitable paper .0015" - .0017" thick? If so, I'd go get a some. A specific name, link or sku would help. Thanks. Steve

[Don McDowell]

Staples sells an 8 lb roll of drafting paper in their drafting supplies that is very similar to Seth Cole 55w.

[Bent Ramrod]

Strathmore “tracing” paper is 0.0015” thick, and I’ve found it at Hobby Lobby and Wal-Mart. There’s also another brand; don’t remember the name, but the pads have black covers instead of the Strathmore yellow, that seems to be the same thickness for its “tracing” paper.

Take your micrometer with you, and check the “tracing” against the “vellum” and “drawing” types. Crank the thimble down hard when you measure. Generally the “vellum” is 0.002” or slightly thicker, and the “drawing” 0.003” or considerably thicker.

[Lead pot]

benchf,

What diameter are you calling to big?
There is an option you can do if the patched diameter is a little over bore diameter and that is you can push them through a Lee push through as long as they are not more than .003" oversized. I like to run mine through even if I patch then a couple thousands larger than I want. This does a couple things that are a benefit. The bases are folded under tight. The diameter is uniform.
Or if the bullet is oversized a lot, treat it like a GG. Seat it deeper in the case.
A groove diameter PP will shoot very well also, it just takes up more powder room if that is an issue for you.
Or get a breach seating tool and breach seat those oversized bullets. The results will make you smile doing it this way.

[ndnchf]

Don - I've seen you mention the Staples paper before. Is it the same thickness as the SC 55w?

BR - I bought a pad of Strathmore series 300 tracing paper (yellow cover) last week. I measured it with two Starrett mics, it comes in at .002", maybe a tad less. Perhaps they've changed the composition?

Lead Pot - patched with the Strathmore tracing paper, they are coming in at .4395" . My bore diameter is .4375". They are too tight to fit without undue effort. I have a .439" bullet sizer I may try. The BACO bullets are .432", I may try running them into a .431"sizer.

[Don McDowell]

ndnchf as near as I can tell it is the same as 55w. Thickness, texture, the whole deal.

[ndnchf]

Thanks Don. I'll take a mic with me. Hopefully its not wrapped up n plastic. I'd like to measure it if I can.

[Don McDowell]

It is in plastic wrap.

[Don McDowell]

The stuff I bought at Staples, it's been a few years back, is Staedler light weight tracing paper. 8lb. It was made in Canada, so if they still have any of the same stuff now is the question.

[ndnchf]

Thanks Don. Staples is only a mile away. So its easy to check.

[Distant Thunder]

The stuff I have is that same brand, Staedler. It is .0015"-ish thick and it is about as thin as I can work with. I am noticing that as I work with it more it is getting a little easier, a little. It has worked pretty well the little bit I've shot it.

I long ago lost the label so I have no idea beyond that what it is or where it came from. I've got notes on that info but that would be looking for a note in a huge stack of notes.

By patching my .446" diameter .45 caliber bullets with it and running them thru my sizing die they come out at .450" diameter. That would be a little loose in my Hepburn, but should work well in other rifles.

I may have to experiment a little in warmer weather.

[Don McDowell]

Jim I bought 2 rolls of it, opened one and used a little, then gave it to someone who was wanting to try patching. Still have the other roll, luckily I was able to find it in the pile of stuff, and other than the end being opened it's still intact.

[ndnchf]

I searched the Staples web site - nope. All they have now is 25 and 100% rag Staedtler tracing paper. But none identified as light weight. I'll just have to be patient and wait for the Seth Cole to arrive. But I will try sizing down one of the .432" BACO bullets to .431" and see if that makes enough difference in the Strathmore patched diameter to fit the bore.

[Don McDowell]

Those .432 bullets you should be able to wrap in 9 lb paper and drop into the chamber.

[ndnchf]

The BACO 400gr bullets are actually .4323" give or take a tad. I wrapped them in all 4 papers I have. This included a few SC 55y and 55w that were sent to me. Here is the patched diameters I found, the best I can measure:

SC 55w: .4373"
SC 55y: .4363"
Canson 25lb tracing paper: .4383"
Strathmore series 300 tracing paper: .4395"

My barrel's bore is .4375". The SC patched bullets will slip in, the others only if forced. If I size down a BACO bullet to .431", the Canson tracing paper may just work.

[ndnchf]

So I sized a BACO bullet from .432" to 431", then wrapped it in the Canson tracing paper. Wrapped, the bullets are about .438". They will push into the bore with slight pressure. Seems this canson paper is about .0017- .0018". So I think this will work for now. But ultimately, it seems the Seth Cole 55w will be the best choice for this unsized billet.

[Don McDowell]

The target will let you know what is working and what isn't. :)

[ndnchf]

Yes indeed. I just need to be able to isolate operator error from load error. Cataracts make that a challenge :-D

[Don McDowell]

Yessir, I need to visit the eye doc again sometime this spring. Pretty sure I've got cataracts, as he mumbled something about might be starting on the last visit.
Getting old is fun ain't it?

[Lead pot]

Our local Staples closed down last year. When I went in everything was on sale when I looked for ink and printer paper. I saw seven rolls of 7# 14"x 50 yards 55 Y and 4 of the Staedtler sketch 8# 12"X50 yards what they had left, I don't remember the sales price for sure but it was less than $5. a roll so I took what was left on the shelf. For me the white is usable but the yellow is to thin and a bear to work with when you unroll it. I used the yellow in my .40-65 and when I cleaned the rifle the gray streaks on the patch took a while to get the lead out.
I cut some patches using it for the .44-77 I have some undersized bullets I like using for hunting that patches .002" under bore diameter so I triple wrapped those and rant them through a Lee die and they shot well doing this.

But putting a mike on the yellow and white the thickness varies where ever you check the thickness. It's not very uniform.

Two of my rifles have a .003" deep groove so the 55 Y paper will get used for those rifles.

[ndnchf]

Still waiting on the Seth Cole 55y and 55w to arrive. The weather has added to the already common shipping delays....

Its too cold and icy to go shooting. Being cooped up at home I got thinking more about ways to better tighten the neck after the PP bullets are seated. It just needed to be a few thousandths tighter. I got thinking about the Lee universal expander dies. I already make my own expander plugs for them, and wondered if I could make a neck sizer bushing. So after taking some measurements and thinking about it over this morning's coffee and making a drawing, I went over to the lathe and made some chips.

After it was done and polished I ran 20 cartridges through it. They tightened up nicely. I'm sure I'm not the first to do this, but I didnt see them available anywhere, so I thought I'd give it a try. It turned out surprisingly well.

[Lead pot]

Good job!!
How much of a taper did you put in?

[Lead pot]

lee push through sizing dies work well also if you don't have a lath.

[ndnchf]

Its hard to see in the photo, but after boring to size, I set the compound to cut a 5 degree lead-in taper about .075" deep. This allows the case mouths to easily enter the bushing. Then it was chamfered and polished. The sizing portion is only. 500" deep. The remainder is larger to allow the PP bullet to move freely.

I've used the Lee push through sizers for other cartridges. They work well too.

[Lead pot]

Good work.

[ndnchf]

Thank you sir.

[ndnchf]

I'd like to order a tapered, dual diameter mold of around 400-450gr. Near the nose I want it patched to bore diameter. But what about near the base? Should its patched diameter be about groove diameter or a slip fit in a fired case? My groove diameter is .446". I measured three fired cases and the neck ID averaged .451". I've read on various forums of doing it both ways, but groove diameter seems to make the most sense to me. This is strictly for range use with a max distance of 200 yards. Thanks.

[Don McDowell]

Best thing to do would be to figure the thickness of the paper and multiply by 4, then subtract that from the groove diameter, and order the base of the bullet at the sum of your math problem, nose diameter at the junction of the base should probably be about .004-.006 under the base diameter..

[beltfed]

one thing about measuring paper for our purposes.
Rather than measuring a single sheet, measure the 4 layers at once in several places
and the average the thickness of the 4 layers for your calculations as to bullet diameters.
That will help to "average out" local variations in the paper if it has poor formation.
Also, re the Double diameter bullets: I like to have a taper. for "general purposes" of 3.5 degrees per side
between the base band and the bore ride area of the bullet.
You can see that in DDEPP bullets in the BACO catalog
There are a couple of 44 cal. DDpp bullets listed.
and if the bullet is of appropriate lengths overall and of the base band length,
Baco will adjust diameters for you
beltfed/arnie

[ndnchf]

Thanks guys, good advice. I'll go for groove diameter at the patched base. Measuring a stack of 4 patches rather than measure 1 and multiplying by 4 made a difference. I was doing the later. But when measuring the bare bullet vs the patched bullet, it wasn't adding up right. It had me a little baffled. But when I measured a stack of 4, it matched the bare vs patched difference.

[Distant Thunder]

Your patched base diameter can be .001 to .002 over your groove diameter just as you would do with a grease groove bullet. It might then fit you fireformed cases a bit better. I'm not sure if you can go more than .002, that's the most I've gone.

Ideally with a .446 groove diameter your chamber would be cut to fireform your specific brass to .448 and your bullet base would patch to .447. That would give a nice slip fit into the case mouth.

As long as you get as much bullet as possible up into the bore and fitting snug the base will bump up to whatever the case ID is when the powder ignites, guaranteed. If your brass is .452, your bullet will become .452 before it moves much at all. The best thing is to minimize the bump up as much as possible by making the bullet fit the available space to start with, but it has to chamber so some comprises are necessary.

[ndnchf]

Great info, thanks Jim!

[Lead pot]

If you have a PP mould just put it in your 4 jaw chuck and use your boring bar and open the base to match your paper.
I used my mill opening a .44 mould but my next I will probably use my lathe.

278967

[ndnchf]

I don't- yet. But I ordered a tapered PP mold from Accurate. So I should be good.

[R-71]

I don't- yet. But I ordered a tapered PP mold from Accurate. So I should be good.

Which Mold? I'm researching PP molds for my rifle.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-410P
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-470P

[ndnchf]

I ordered this one.
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-400P

[martinibelgian]

Once had Steve Brooks make me a tapered mould for PP. it tapered from groove to bore diameter patched. As I couldn't get any consistent accuracy from it, I had it bored out to a groove diameter bullet...

[Abert Rim]

Gentlemen, thank you so much to all who have contributed to this amazing and enlightening thread. It could be edited into a manuscript in honor of a great and historic cartridge, the .44-77. I have long been interested in this chambering, and when I recently did a Google search on the topic, lo and behold up came my own post back in 2007 on the Shiloh Forum, where I was logged in as Oregon Bill. I am so pleased to learn that the .44-77 is a wonderful cartridge that can be made to shoot with the best of them, as I had always heard discouraging words about it that you all have proven to be untrue. Again, thank you.
http://boulderriverfoundry.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9000

[R-71]

Hello 44-77 fans, been shooting mine a bit here’s a group I shot a week or so ago. This was 80 grains of Swiss 1.5, a Walters wad and a bullet from my accurate 44-410p bullet at 200 meters. 301864