148 grain wadcutter, effective range?

[exile]

I am wondering what the effective range of a 148 grain wadcutter might be?

By that I mean at what point does this particular boolit begin to drop when fired from a revolver?

I'm guessing forty or fifty yards, but I don't know for sure.

Thanks, exile

[GBertolet]

WC bullets are used for 50 yard bullseye competition, which they excel at. Much beyond this, they become unstable.

[Winger Ed.]

Any bullet begins to slow down as soon as it leaves the barrel.
If the bore is level, it starts dropping right where it exits.

[Tatume]

The bullet starts dropping when it leaves the muzzle, regardless of the angle of the bore. If the barrel is pointed up, the rise of the bullet from that source is initially greater than the drop attributed to gravity. The sum of the two is positive, and the bullet has an upward trajectory. The constant acceleration due to gravity causes the rate of drop to increase, eventually exceeding the rise caused by the angle of the barrel. The sum of the two now becomes negative, and the trajectory turns downward.

If the same bullet were fired in a vacuum, the same thing would happen, even though the speed of the bullet would be constant. The resulting trajectory would be a true parabola.

Other interesting effects occur as well.

[35remington]

50-75 yards or maybe a little more, typically, depending upon which wadcutter, what velocity, and what barrel twist. A fast twist barrel at higher velocity might extend this somewhat.

Not a problem of drop so much as bullet stability. Shape of wadcutter not conducive to stable flight at some point.

[exile]

Very interesting information, thank you!

exile

[USSR]

WC bullets are used for 50 yard bullseye competition, which they excel at. Much beyond this, they become unstable.

Yep!

Don

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I was surprised at how well these shot at 100 yards:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FY8uiNuElq8

[Winger Ed.]

I was surprised at how well these shot at 100 yards:]

Years ago, I walked past the TV and it caught my eye.

Not idea who the guy was, but he was a exhibition shooter using a 2" Ruger .38.

He was shooting the edges of playing cards and splitting them at normal pistol range distances,
and popping about 8-10" balloons with it at 100 yards.

[Petander]

We have a little table at 75 meters from the berm at our hunting club range.

I have a couple of plates back there,being lazy I often shoot only the plates @ 75 m and don't bother with walking back there and setting up paper targets at all. 75 is fine with 38 wadcutters,just hold your front sight a little coarse or adjust - those S&W silhouette front sights are excellent here. Any normal handgun load should hit A4 plate at 75 regularly. Walking back I get up to 125.

I've been shooting everything @75 m here since -95, it's easy to confirm handgun loads,you can see the berm hits when/if there's not much snow...

https://i.postimg.cc/X73jPx4q/IMG-20191227-144402.jpg

[dverna]

When I was shooting Bullseye I had a 1-10 twist Douglas barrel stubbed into a S&W M52 target gun. It enhanced accuracy at 50 yards and dropped groups about an inch. Velocity, twist rate, and bullet length all play a role in bullet stability.

This was with Remington 148 gr HBWC and 2.7 gr of Bullseye. Similar improvement with the H&G 50.

[Outpost75]

The .38 Special wadcutters ordinarily do not produce linear dispersion when target range increases very much beyond about 50 yards or meters, when shot from the standard S&W 18-3/4” twist barrel. Using a faster twist of rifling, such as the 1:10” used in 9mm Parabellum barrels and some custom PPC guns, and bumping the velocity of solid-based wadcutters to improve their gyroscopic stability will shoot very well well past 100 yards. CBA member Bill Duncan in Alaska had a facinating article in the Fouling Shot Issue 258-19 which gave specifics of his testing out to 200 yards or metres using a ten-inch twist, heavy-barreled PPC revolver with scope. Yes, the bullet drop was considerable! Bill's aiming reference point was about 2 metres above the target backer, but the hits would have all been on an Army "E" silhouette target about 1 metre high and 1/2 metre wide.

[Petander]

H&G #50 here,too.

My N320 load has settled around 950 fps,now this thread made me try 3N37. I'm a 38 Special beginner, just another thing that has happened in backwards order in my life. :)

Now cooking:

https://i.postimg.cc/nhqXtLBv/IMG-20200122-061025-103.jpg

[exile]

Off topic, but since I started the thread I will ask the question. What would be your recommendation for a revolver that is currently produced for shooting 148 grain wadcutters?

Does anyone have any experience with the Ruger GP 100 Match Champion or the Smith and Wesson N frame V comp revolvers? I checked Dan Wesson's offerings for 2020 and it looks like they are only listing one revolver for the current year.

Your thoughts?

exile

[Petander]

Would that be in 38 S&W chambering?

First time Sun in weeks,I chronoed my two 148 loads. My mild is 700 fps and hot is 1150 fps from 6" Mod 14. VV N320 and VV 3N37. Both ring steel @ 75,I should properly group them I know.

https://i.postimg.cc/FzTvRmPs/IMG-20200122-122548-838.jpg

[tazman]

1150 fps with a 148 grain solid wadcutter(I am assuming you are using the H&G 50 you spoke of) is really hot for a Model 14 S&W. That has to be into light 357 pressures. I would be very hesitant to shoot that in a model 14 no matter how accurate it is.

[USSR]

1150 fps with a 148 grain solid wadcutter(I am assuming you are using the H&G 50 you spoke of) is really hot for a Model 14 S&W. That has to be into light 357 pressures. I would be very hesitant to shoot that in a model 14 no matter how accurate it is.

Same here.

Don

[dverna]

1150 fps with a 148 grain solid wadcutter(I am assuming you are using the H&G 50 you spoke of) is really hot for a Model 14 S&W. That has to be into light 357 pressures. I would be very hesitant to shoot that in a model 14 no matter how accurate it is.

My thoughts as well. The gun is not suitable for that use.

Primers may not be flattened but you are stressing the gun. Please check you load data and the source...hopefully not internet!

[Petander]

Thanks for the warnings,yes it is on a hot CIP side. Published in Vihtavuori 2002 manual,it says it should read 1070 fps, I also checked with Quick Load as usual. In SAAMI this is +P+ of course.

Even though being CIP proofed,my Mod 14 will not get a steady diet of those,I fired most of them in 357 revolvers. A 2 1/2" Mod 66 gave 1020 fps.

https://i.postimg.cc/nzp4LPYR/IMG-20200123-001127-629.jpg

[tazman]

That would be a great defense load in that short barred model 66.

[Good Cheer]

The NEI gas checked wadcutter hard cast and loaded seated out with 296 could do wonderful things (as long as you were intending to eat what you shot).

[Petander]

That would be a great defense load in that short barred model 66.

Yes,easy and fun to shoot,I fired many dozens of BHN 4 wadcutters @ 1000 fps the other day,it must be Hi Tek coating but leading was not bad in that 66. I expected serious leading.

Here you can see current Vihtavuori data, 3N37 can push a 158 lead bullet above 1100,too. Within CIP 22k psi. I have used 3N37 for heavy bullets (163) in 9mm subsonic and 255 grain in 45 ACP. It delivers velocity with less pressure than many other powders.

https://i.postimg.cc/rynfh5kd/IMG-20200123-010447-305.jpg

I know these look crazy if one is used to 16 k psi loads. 45ACP goes the other way round by the way, CIP is lower pressure than SAAMI.

[gnostic]

The bullet starts dropping when it leaves the muzzle, regardless of the angle of the bore. If the barrel is pointed up, the rise of the bullet from that source is initially greater than the drop attributed to gravity. The sum of the two is positive, and the bullet has an upward trajectory. The constant acceleration due to gravity causes the rate of drop to increase, eventually exceeding the rise caused by the angle of the barrel. The sum of the two now becomes negative, and the trajectory turns downward.

If the same bullet were fired in a vacuum, the same thing would happen, even though the speed of the bullet would be constant. The resulting trajectory would be a true parabola.

Other interesting effects occur as well.

If that's the case, how can a bullet be on at fifty yards, and four inches high at one hundred yards?

[Petander]

If that's the case, how can a bullet be on at fifty yards, and four inches high at one hundred yards?

A high mounted scope?

[tazman]

A high mounted scope?

Yes.
Or any sight setup that is significantly higher than the line of the bore. Particularly with a fast cartridge. I have a 223 bolt with a high mounted scope that does that very thing.

[gnostic]

Yes.
Or any sight setup that is significantly higher than the line of the bore. Particularly with a fast cartridge. I have a 223 bolt with a high mounted scope that does that very thing.

I seem to remember my 6.5 Remington magnum, being near on at a hundred with 100 grain 3500 fps JHP bullets. The rifle was sighted in with 120 grain SP that were on at 50 and 200 yards. The height of the scope effect on the trajectory is parallax, I think...

[Tatume]

If that's the case, how can a bullet be on at fifty yards, and four inches high at one hundred yards?

This is a problem that I teach in my pre-calculus class. The airless case is much easier, and I'll be glad to work it out for you if you wish. The same problem in the presence of air is a little harder because the velocity is not constant. However, if you understand the airless trajectory, it's easy to intuitively grasp the additional complication. Let me know if you would like me to do it.

[Petander]

Yes.
Or any sight setup that is significantly higher than the line of the bore. Particularly with a fast cartridge. I have a 223 bolt with a high mounted scope that does that very thing.

https://i.postimg.cc/wMRdFRkS/Trajectory-png-cf.png

[Jtarm]

Off topic, but since I started the thread I will ask the question. What would be your recommendation for a revolver that is currently produced for shooting 148 grain wadcutters?

Does anyone have any experience with the Ruger GP 100 Match Champion or the Smith and Wesson N frame V comp revolvers? I checked Dan Wesson's offerings for 2020 and it looks like they are only listing one revolver for the current year.

Your thoughts?

exile

The V comps are designed for action pistol, so they’re probably standard 1/18.75 twist. Fine for wadcutters out to 50 yards.

I believe the original Colt Pythons were 1/14 twist, so if the new one follows suit and is decent quality, it should shoot wadcutters pretty well.

If you’re wanting to extend the range, I’d look at the LBT Ogival wadcutter design.

Whatever you go with, I’d stick with brass matching caliber, i.e. if you buy a .357, load .357 brass & not .38.

No matter the gun, all other factors affecting accuracy still apply.

[Oyeboten]

Yes,easy and fun to shoot,I fired many dozens of BHN 4 wadcutters @ 1000 fps the other day,it must be Hi Tek coating but leading was not bad in that 66. I expected serious leading.

Here you can see current Vihtavuori data, 3N37 can push a 158 lead bullet above 1100,too. Within CIP 22k psi. I have used 3N37 for heavy bullets (163) in 9mm subsonic and 255 grain in 45 ACP. It delivers velocity with less pressure than many other powders.

https://i.postimg.cc/rynfh5kd/IMG-20200123-010447-305.jpg

I know these look crazy if one is used to 16 k psi loads. 45ACP goes the other way round by the way, CIP is lower pressure than SAAMI.

Very nice info!

I have 3N37 which I got for use with 9mm Bergmann-Bayard / 9mm Largo, and .38 ACP.

It is probably about the ideal for these ( even if the Manufacturer does not publish data for these Cartridges ).

I had wondered about it for .38 Special or others also, so this is nice to see.

I'll give it a try sometime in .45 ACP and .38 Special.

Thanks!

[Tatume]

Although I've never owned a V-Comp, a fellow loaned me his and gave me a box of ammo once. I was flabbergasted by the accuracy at 50 yards. I don't remember what the ammo was, but the gun certainly was accurate!

[ddixie884]

Good info, Petander. Thanx a lot.............

[Bigslug]

Off topic, but since I started the thread I will ask the question. What would be your recommendation for a revolver that is currently produced for shooting 148 grain wadcutters?

Does anyone have any experience with the Ruger GP 100 Match Champion or the Smith and Wesson N frame V comp revolvers? I checked Dan Wesson's offerings for 2020 and it looks like they are only listing one revolver for the current year.

Your thoughts?

exile

My mother's retirement present to herself about 4 years ago was a 6" GP-100. When she gets going, a rather staggering quantity of H&G #50 wadcutters get consumed in a short period of time - usually resulting in giggles by the one shooting it.

Of recent production, the S&W's seem to suffer more from thread crush at the frame (bore diameter .001-.002" tighter at the frame than the rest of the bore) than the Rugers do. Both are likely to need fire-lapping to really sing, but I know of three fairly recent S&W's that really lead up past the forcing cone because of this. On the Rugers, not quite so intense.

[tazman]

I have one of the new S&W 686+(7 shot) revolvers and it dearly loves wadcutters. Mine is a 6 inch version and shoots as accurately as my model 14 Target Masterpiece does.

[Petander]

This Mod 66 shoots some wadcutter loads with great accuracy.

I was shooting a 38 Special load @ 21 psi (Quick load & chrono estimate, below Vihtavuori max) with VV 3N37 today, very tight 1" grouping @ 20 meters. Shooting accurately with a snubby just feels soooo good.

https://i.postimg.cc/gkrqjkFB/IMG-20200127-143944-924.jpg

[exile]

Thanks guys for the comments on revolvers, I appreciate it.

exile

[exile]

I hate to keep adding topics to this thread, but I was wondering if the RCBS Cowboy die sets in .38 Special were worth the extra cost as an aid in loading cast boolits? I currently use a Lee set, but wanted an extra set just in case? Thanks for your thoughts.

exile

[onelight]

I hate to keep adding topics to this thread, but I was wondering if the RCBS Cowboy die sets in .38 Special were worth the extra cost as an aid in loading cast boolits? I currently use a Lee set, but wanted an extra set just in case? Thanks for your thoughts.

exile
I am sure others here have a different opinion but if your loaded ammo is accurate and doesn't lead why would you change the system you have ?
I don't look for a solution to a problem unless I have a problem.
That said , nothing wrong with experimenting I have several sets of dies for many of the cartridges I load and sometimes buy a particular die if I have need for it but for the most part for what I load and the way I shoot factory die sets work fine.

[exile]

Read some reviews here, decided the extra cost was not worth it, bought a three die Lee set as a spare, gave my original set a good cleaning.

exile

[exile]

Are factory wadcutters pure lead boolits? Do you guys cast them from pure lead? 50/50? Does the use of softer lead increase accuracy? Anybody have the NOE 148 grain hollow-base wadcutter mold? How do you like it? Thanks.

exile

[tazman]

Are factory wadcutters pure lead boolits? Do you guys cast them from pure lead? 50/50? Does the use of softer lead increase accuracy? Anybody have the NOE 148 grain hollow-base wadcutter mold? How do you like it? Thanks.

exile

Most swaged factory wadcutters are pure lead. Cast factory may be anything clear up to hard lead depending on the maker.
I can't say the softer lead makes them more accurate. I think it is more the production method(swaging) rather than the hardness.
I owned the NOE hollow based wadcutter mold. It shot fine. Maybe 1/2 inch tighter than my solid cast wadcutters at 20 yards. Since I am not a target shooter, that difference wasn't important to me so I sold it.
I have found that case sorting by headstamp makes more difference to my accuracy than the hollow base did.
My best loads are loaded into match wadcutter brass. I get very good accuracy with those cases. I don't think the brand makes as much difference as the fact that all the cases are the same.

[exile]

Great insight, thank you!

exile

[Petrol & Powder]

If that's the case, how can a bullet be on at fifty yards, and four inches high at one hundred yards?

/\ It was still following an upward trajectory when it passed the 50 yard point and didn't reach the peak of the trajectory until reached the 100 yard range.

The physics are not in question. Gravity begins to act on the bullet the instant it leaves the barrel.

If the barrel is parallel to the surface of the earth and a bullet leave the barrel, gravity will begin to pull that bullet down (towards the center of the earth) the instant the bullet leave the barrel. The rate of acceleration by gravity (near the surface of the earth) is roughly 32 feet per second squared. We counteract this effect by pointing the barrel slightly upward.

[smkummer]

I (we- myself and girlfriend) shoot at least 1000 lee cast 148 wadcutters a year from a 6 cavity mold with 3 grains bullseye. A few years ago, I abandoned using them at 100 yards. It’s been so long I can’t remember if it was the bullet drop or less accuracy than the 158 SWC that caused me to do that. Your results may vary but if you can make a different bullet for long range, I would. Again, lots of 3, 5, 7 and 10 yard CC type shooting along with 18-50 yards for wadcutters, which is easily 1/2 of my total 38 special shooting. Wadcutters make such nice holes in paper. A plus P 38 semi wadcutter is a wonderful 100 yard steel plate shooter and even works 200 yards.

[exile]

Another question from the uninformed.

Since wadcutter brass is different than regular brass, will seating a full wadcutter flush with the case mouth harm regular .38 special brass, particularly thick brass like Starline?

Somebody gave me some Albert's hollow-base wadcutters for Christmas. Think I will sort some Remington brass to start with, I hear it is supposed to be thinner than other brass.

Thanks,

exile

[tazman]

Another question from the uninformed.

Since wadcutter brass is different than regular brass, will seating a full wadcutter flush with the case mouth harm regular .38 special brass, particularly thick brass like Starline?

Somebody gave me some Albert's hollow-base wadcutters for Christmas. Think I will sort some Remington brass to start with, I hear it is supposed to be thinner than other brass.

Thanks,

exile

It won't hurt the brass. It will squeegee down the bottom of the boolit. With hollow based wadcutters, you have the possibility that the base will expand enough to fill the cylinder and barrel but maybe not. In any case, the differences in base expansion will cause inconsistencies and usually, poor accracy. With wadcutter brass, it works since the bottom of the boolit is not reduced in size.

Oddly enough, Starline says their brass is already wadcutter style brass.
I don't know of my own experience, since I have never owned any Starline brass. I have worked with Remington wadcutter brass and it works a treat. It is what I use for my match wadcutter loads. I believe Winchester match brass would work equally well.

If you use solid based wadcutters, there are things you can do to make standard brass work the same as wadcutter brass. Seating the wadcutter longer by crimping in one of the grease grooves or going with a design such as the Lyman 358432 are a couple of them. Basically, anything that gets the base of the boolit away from the thicker sections of the case web would help.
Many say that, when using solid based wadcutters, they don't really see any improvement when using match brass over regular brass. My testing tells me there is a difference but it is relatively small. It is still enough that a good target shooter can tell the difference on the target.

[exile]

It won't hurt the brass. It will squeegee down the bottom of the boolit. With hollow based wadcutters, you have the possibility that the base will expand enough to fill the cylinder and barrel but maybe not. In any case, the differences in base expansion will cause inconsistencies and usually, poor accracy. With wadcutter brass, it works since the bottom of the boolit is not reduced in size.

Oddly enough, Starline says their brass is already wadcutter style brass.
I don't know of my own experience, since I have never owned any Starline brass. I have worked with Remington wadcutter brass and it works a treat. It is what I use for my match wadcutter loads. I believe Winchester match brass would work equally well.

If you use solid based wadcutters, there are things you can do to make standard brass work the same as wadcutter brass. Seating the wadcutter longer by crimping in one of the grease grooves or going with a design such as the Lyman 358432 are a couple of them. Basically, anything that gets the base of the boolit away from the thicker sections of the case web would help.
Many say that, when using solid based wadcutters, they don't really see any improvement when using match brass over regular brass. My testing tells me there is a difference but it is relatively small. It is still enough that a good target shooter can tell the difference on the target.

Again, great information, thank you.

exile

[exile]

Some years ago, I switched from Unique to Winchester 231 for cast boolits in 9mm. Does anyone here use 231 for .38 special cast boolit loads, say a 158 grain rnfp? Not looking for load data, just your experiences. Thanks.

exile

[tazman]

It works fine for 38 special. I use it when I am looking for high end loads sometimes. It seems to give a softer recoil impulse for me.
Others have stated they love it for target level loads.

[9.3X62AL]

WW-231 is my go-to powder in 38 Special, and has been for 25+ years. It works with jacketed, swaged, and cast bullets very well.

I largely stopped casting and shooting wadcutter bullets almost 30 years ago. The better ballistic coefficients of both semi-wadcutter and of round flatnose bullet designs allow them to range better and more accurately in my revolvers. I have some Remington HBWCs in plastic sales bags I need to do something with, and the recent addition of a Model 642 snubgun might be a good use for them.

[JeffG]

Another question from the uninformed.

Since wadcutter brass is different than regular brass, will seating a full wadcutter flush with the case mouth harm regular .38 special brass, particularly thick brass like Starline?

Somebody gave me some Albert's hollow-base wadcutters for Christmas. Think I will sort some Remington brass to start with, I hear it is supposed to be thinner than other brass.

Thanks,

exile

All i use in 38 Special is Starline with 90% of the bullets being full wadcutters sized .358. They load and shoot great, and accurate. I use steel Redding .38 special dies and finish with their profile crimp die.

[exile]

Thanks guys for your responses. As always, I appreciate your insight and experience.

exile

[Jtarm]

Back in the day, target wadcutters were referred to as a "midrange" round. That shouis tell yiu something.

[USSR]

It just so happens that W231 was the powder used in the original Hydro-Shok (before Federal bought it) .38 Special load, which was essentially a hollowpoint wadcutter.

Don

[exile]

Interesting.

exile

[rfd]

another long time user of w231 for a variety of handgun cartridges and currently that's 9mm (115 and 125 precision hi-tec) and .38spl (125fp precision hi-tec, 148bnwc and 158swc acme hi-tec)

258820

[Livin_cincy]

W231 & HP38 are the same powder. Both made by Hodgdon.
The W231 has been a standard in 38 shooting so Hodgdon put 38 in their branding.
So when W231 is sold out spend $1 less per pound on HP38.

[Win94ae]

in my S&W 66, 2,5" barrel, I shoot 125gr 38spl bullets, and 158gr 357mag bullets, both at 1050fps. I have my sights adjusted so the 357 hits at 4 inches high at 50 yards; at 100 yards I'll be about 4 inches low. The 38spl cartridges act about the same, with a slight sight adjustment.

But both loads shoot close enough to POA so I keep the sights set for the 357mag.

[35remington]

Just noting that Hodgdon does not and has never made powder. They just distribute powder others have made. FWIW.