Questions on salvaging a burned up 1911

[Multigunner]

A friend brought several guns over to ask me if they can be salvaged.
His house burned down due to some electrical fault, made worse by his oxygen tanks for his breathing apparatus feeding the flames. The house burned like a railroad flare.
His gunsafe wasn't as fire resistant as expected.

The worst burned was a 1911 series 70.
It got hot enough that the springs lost all tension so I expect the heat treatment is compromised.
The rounds in the magazine cooked off blasting trapdoors of metal through the openings in the grip frame.
I think rather than the steel being simply annealed that some exterior areas quenched by the fire hoses are brittle.

Is it possible to re heat treat the frame and slide?
Not sure if the barrel got as hot but it may need replacing anyway due to rusting for days in the rubble.
I figure its best to simply replace the smaller parts such as hammer and trigger linkage etc. Springs also of course.

If we take it to a machine shop to check hardness what would be the figures within safe limits for frame and slide?

Since his insurance won't cover this sort of loss he won't want to put much into rebuilding it. Probably cheaper to buy a new one or another used one.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Your last idea is the best one.

There are people who do this kind of work, the re-heat treatment of metal, but their services are expensive, and you'll always wonder.......

Its best use would be as a wall hanger, permanently disabled.

[rondog]

I'd have to agree, it's junk now.

[M-Tecs]

Pacific Metallurgy used to do this for $125.00 http://pacmet.com/

Blanchard Metal Process of Utah does this also https://www.bmproc.com/

Some info on specs here. https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=35134

Unless the metal is heavily scaled it most definitely can be reheat treated. The cost benefit ratio is the real question.

[Winger Ed.]

I think its a goner as far as shooting it again.

[turtlezx]

wait for a gun buy back program and turn it in for $$$

[Texas by God]

Insurance should cover the house and contents one would think. That gun is fancy scrap if you can make out the Colt logo...

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[Winger Ed.]

wait for a gun buy back program and turn it in for $$$

I wish I'd thought of that.

It might also be good for practice bluing, teaching yourself to do trigger work,
practice your draw and jam clearing skill, or getting good practice taking one apart & putting it back together in the dark.

[M-Tecs]

Insurance should cover the house and contents one would think. That gun is fancy scrap if you can make out the Colt logo...

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Home owners policies tend to be very limited for firearms

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/insuring-your-firearms/

https://news.leavitt.com/personal-insurance/guns-and-insurance-a-firearm-owners-guide/

[country gent]

You might get away with using the frame and new trigger parts and a marvel 22 conversion on top. Other wise its better to start over.

[izzyjoe]

I have saved a few guns that have been burned, they were mostly low pressure guns like rimfires, and one is a 30-06 that is now only a light load cast shooter!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Home owners policies tend to be very limited for firearms

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/insuring-your-firearms/

https://news.leavitt.com/personal-insurance/guns-and-insurance-a-firearm-owners-guide/


This is very true. A lot of insurance policies cap at $1,500 for firearms. You can record the serial numbers, keep the bills of sale/purchase in another location, even photograph them, but they'll tell you that you should have purchased Collector's Insurance. I know I've looked into that option several times, including insurance offered by the NRA, and it is cost prohibitive.

[Multigunner]

I agree that the 1911 wouldn't be worth the cost of restoring. Besides that pistol two Enfields, a no.1 MkIII* and a no.4 Mk I BSA were in the safe. Both had the fore ends burned completely to ashes just ahead of the receiver ring, the wood around the action body is scorched but intact. I'm thinking these actions might be salvageable but would need new barrels. Only things above the center of the safe burned, two pistols stored at the bottom look undamaged even resin and plastic grips unmarred. A bit rusty and covered with soot but should clean up okay.
A Chinese SKS lost its entire stock. I think it is probably toast.

Someone made an offer on the whole shebang but the undamaged CZ 52 and a generic .380 are worth more than he offered.
I've fired that CZ in the past but these just don't fit my hand. Everyone else got good results but I couldn't hit anything with it, otherwise I'd have bought it from him myself. I'll just clean those two up for him for now so he'll at least have the beginning of a new collection.

PS
The 1911 might be useful to someone who makes moulded holsters for this model. Welded and demiled of course.

[ShooterAZ]

Please don't make offers to buy/sell on this thread!

[Rich/WIS]

Wood chars at about 450 degrees, if burned off completely likely got a lot hotter in the safe, the unburned wood might have survived because the open flame ran out of oxygen. I would not trust any firearm exposed to that kind of heat unless inspected and hardness tested by someone who knows what they are doing.

[Geezer in NH]

It's Toast. My shop restored many fire job guns to shootable/useable condition but if the springs were annealed the gun was junk and would destroy them so no one would try to repair them then get hurt.

It is cheaper to buy another at that point IMHO

[CLAYPOOL]

Pick out a Tombstone and a plot...

[Boogieman]

new internal parts and a 22lr conversion kit

[justashooter]

a modern 1911 will be made of aisi 4130 or some such, and treated to have a thru thickness BHN of about 180-225, as it is a heavily built gun for a low pressure cartridge. early military 1911 were not so durable. springs tend to be tempered at 400-500*, so anything more and they will loose strength. the gun is not worth repairing. water quenching from over 600* will make the steel subject to brittle fracture.

[Speedo66]

I seem to remember one gun company gave a discount for guns destroyed by house fire.

The gun buy back turn in is a great idea.

[turtlezx]

if a NRA member you have $2500 on top of home owners coverage

[KCSO]

If the springs are soft so are the locking lugs do not salvage these!

[EDG]

I doubt that the frame and slide have any special heat treat. If those parts are heat treated after machining they would warp. To satisfy your own curiosity just put enough parts back into one to get it to fire. That would be the recoil spring, hammer and trigger spring.
Then test fire it remotely with factory ammo.
The frame does not see much stress since the barrel locks into the slide. They were even made with aluminum frames which are not very hard. (Machining speeds for aluminum are about 10 times the machining speeds for steel as a data point)
The only part of the slide that sees much stress are the locking shoulders. The locking shoulders of the slide and the barrel are easy to see to tell if they are deforming. Given the design of the 1911 lock up I would not expect them to yield with the .45 ACP pressures.

If the slide and barrel locking surfaces do not yield in 25 or 30 rounds (a statistically valid sample size) then they will probably never yield.
Even if put back into service I would not spend more than the minimum to get it working reliably. It is always going to be an ugly burned gun.

[Hickory]

I was going to buy extra insurance for my guns once, and after I got the quote, I said no thanks! For 14 months of insurance I bought a fire proof safe.

[M-Tecs]

I doubt that the frame and slide have any special heat treat.

The pre-1920's 1911's were spot-heat treated in places like the slide stop detent using an open flame and oil quench. I don't believe the frames were. This created some issues and I have read various claims as to what the heat treatment specs were changed to. The post 20's to mid 60's 1911 were harder but they were not hard enough to withstand the heavy usage that the NRA Bullseye shooter subjected them to. This lead to the so-called "Hard" slides that were used for building "National Match" pistols. Some of them were hard enough that the slide would crack if you squeezed them to much when you did NM builds. I personally have cracked three NM hard slides.

Today's heat treatment and alloy specifications have advanced significantly since 1911 but each manufacture may have there own specs.

On 4140 steel the slides are normally heat treated to a Rockwell C in the low 40's. The frames are usually a few points lower.

38-42 is normal for a 4140 steel slides and 34-36 for the frames.

For stainless 38-42 normal for slides with the frames running about 10 points lower. SS tend to gall if they HT specs are closer.

Some of the cast steel frames that used to be commonly listed in Shotgun News tended not to be heat treated.

[M-Tecs]

I was going to buy extra insurance for my guns once, and after I got the quote, I said no thanks! For 14 months of insurance I bought a fire proof safe.

Home owner riders covering additional firearms insurance tend to be extremely expensive. Some of the stand alone policies are realistic. The $2,500 insurance you get with the NRA membership is a great value.

[justashooter]

The pre-1920's 1911's were spot-heat treated in places like the slide stop detent using an open flame and oil quench. I don't believe the frames were. This created some issues and I have read various claims as to what the heat treatment specs were changed to. The post 20's to mid 60's 1911 were harder but they were not hard enough to withstand the heavy usage that the NRA Bullseye shooter subjected them to. This lead to the so-called "Hard" slides that were used for building "National Match" pistols. Some of them were hard enough that the slide would crack if you squeezed them to much when you did NM builds. I personally have cracked three NM hard slides.

Today's heat treatment and alloy specifications have advanced significantly since 1911 but each manufacture may have there own specs.

On 4140 steel the slides are normally heat treated to a Rockwell C in the low 40's. The frames are usually a few points lower.

38-42 is normal for a 4140 steel slides and 34-36 for the frames.

For stainless 38-42 normal for slides with the frames running about 10 points lower. SS tend to gall if they HT specs are closer.

Some of the cast steel frames that used to be commonly listed in Shotgun News tended not to be heat treated.
i agree that this is a fair assessment. the heat treatment is done in semi-final machining stage with +20 thou stock still on, and ceramic inserts for shape stability. if the gun was over 600* the temper is prolly affected negatively, especially if there was firefighting at play...