Cast .358 won't chamber in 9mm

[Pbaker]

Hi guys (and gals),

I've recently casted some 129TC, specifically NOE HTC359-129-TC-CD4. After PC, I sized some to .357 and .358 to test out load accuracy. The .357 seem to be just fine, they chamber in my pistol and case gauge just fine. I move up to the .358, using exact same setup on press, and no dice. I've tried seating at different depths and crimping more. It will chamber in my pistol (P320 Xfive), but it is tight to extract. No marks on bullet or case, so I'm thinking that .358 is just too tight for this guns chamber. But I wanted to see if you guys had any input. Only thing I can think of is more crimp, maybe? I'm loading on a 650 with Dillon dies and mixed brass, seating to 1.110". Any other ideas?

[sigep1764]

Measure the thickness of the brass wall of the 9mm case. Multiply by two and add that to .358. That is the smallest diameter of the loaded round that I go with. This ensures minimal to no swaging of the boolit and it ensures you are closing the bell of the case to as small a diameter as possible. Try the plunk test once you adjust to this crimping. If it won't chamber, go with .357 boolits. This has worked for me on a few 9mm's when I ran into trouble trying to use .358 boolits.

[gpidaho]

Pbacker: 9mm brass is all over the place as to the thickness of the case. .358 is too snug in my nine with some brands of brass. In my Remington 9 .357 works but I've tried .356 (what barrel slugs) and get no leading. Have you slugged the barrel? You may get better function and feeding with less than .358. Gp

[gnostic]

Measure the thickness of the brass wall of the 9mm case. Multiply by two and add that to .358. That is the smallest diameter of the loaded round that I go with. This ensures minimal to no swaging of the boolit and it ensures you are closing the bell of the case to as small a diameter as possible. Try the plunk test once you adjust to this crimping. If it won't chamber, go with .357 boolits. This has worked for me on a few 9mm's when I ran into trouble trying to use .358 boolits.

I don't think you can measure the case thickness without special tools, I might be wrong, but I don't think so. Try shooting some .357 boolits and if you don't lead the barrel or keyhole, it's all good.

[Outpost75]

I don't think you can measure the case thickness without special tools, I might be wrong, but I don't think so. Try shooting some .357 boolits and if you don't lead the barrel or keyhole, it's all good.

Assemble a dummy round with the subject bullet using your established die settings.
Measure outside diameter of the dummy round over the bullet with your micrometer.
PULL the dummy with an inertia puller.
Measure the diameter of extracted bullet with the micrometer.
(Bullet diameter may have been reduced during cartridge assembly and crimping)
ONE HALF of the difference between OD of dummy and extracted bullet is case wall thickness.

[DougGuy]

Your barrel probably has rifling running right down to the headspace ledge, no freebore to speak of, the proper thing to do is have the barrel throated then you can seat a .358" as long as you want to, provided it will still fit in the magazine. Very common problem to run into, simple one time fix takes care of it. Send a PM if you are interested. I can also pin out your chamber and give you the measurement, for instance if a .381" gage pin will plunk and spin in your chamber, and a .3815" will almost plunk, but not quite, then that would tell you that all your loads must be .381" or smaller across the case mouth when assembled and crimped.

My bet is on the barrel throat, err, the absence of a throat.

This is a Springfield RO barrel in 45 ACP, but the principle is still the same. Left is factory as-issued with no throat, right is after throat reaming and establishing some freebore, this one will plunk and feed anything that will fit through the magazine.

https://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg.html)

[mdi]

Whenever there is a fit problem; measure. Measure the OD of the rounds using the .358" bullets on a few different cases. I'll bet some cases will be too big in diameter, those with thicker walls...

[Pbaker]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll take some measurements of different cases and see if it changes anything. I don't think it will since none of the rounds will drop in the case gauge either. I took a quick measurement of the .358 in a case and I was getting .380". It's about .001 to .0015" difference with the .357. I'll try doing some heavier crimping. Below is the crimp I'm using now on the .358. There's a little case bulge also, but that's expected with cast boolits.

255074

[Dusty Bannister]

"I'm loading on a 650 with Dillon dies and mixed brass, seating to 1.110". Any other ideas?"

If you are going to max diameters, sort your brass by HS and set aside those that are too thick. If you check the HS on those that do not chamber, they probably should not be used with your current settings. Or go with the smaller diameter bullet if it does not lead the barrel and call it good.

[Pbaker]

I think my other/bigger issue is that my case gauge (Dillon) will not fit a .358 boolit. That may be my issue in itself? Either way I need to do some more measuring because it's still tight to extract.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I know you said your tried different depths, but try seating that boolit a little deeper and see how it does (if you need the larger size for accuracy/reducing leading). Take an assortment of fired cases of your various headstamps and drop a boolit in to see how deep you can go before hitting the web. You should have plenty of room with that boolit. Be sure to work up your charge carefully, pressures go up fast in the 9mm when you start seating deeper!

Or just stick with .357!

[Wayne Smith]

Strongly consider DougGuy's post. I had problems with my two 45ACP's and his work fixed both and they both chamber my boolits. Take a look at your barrel and if there is an abrupt 90 degree cut from chamber to rifling as in his first picture that is your problem.

[gpidaho]

Your barrel probably has rifling running right down to the headspace ledge, no freebore to speak of, the proper thing to do is have the barrel throated then you can seat a .358" as long as you want to, provided it will still fit in the magazine. Very common problem to run into, simple one time fix takes care of it. Send a PM if you are interested. I can also pin out your chamber and give you the measurement, for instance if a .381" gage pin will plunk and spin in your chamber, and a .3815" will almost plunk, but not quite, then that would tell you that all your loads must be .381" or smaller across the case mouth when assembled and crimped.

My bet is on the barrel throat, err, the absence of a throat.

This is a Springfield RO barrel in 45 ACP, but the principle is still the same. Left is factory as-issued with no throat, right is after throat reaming and establishing some freebore, this one will plunk and feed anything that will fit through the magazine.

https://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg.html) Doug make a good point with this post. He throated my Ruger P97 barrel and I haven't had a feeding problem since. Gp

[DougGuy]

255074

The amount of boolit sitting proud of the case mouth is interfering with the rifling, your barrel needs to look like the barrel on the right in the photo I posted in order for this boolit to plunk and feed. Almost NO manufacturer makes a barrel with enough freebore to plunk the round you have assembled there. All they care about is if it feeds with the more popular factory made jacketed ammo. Even SAAMI specs call for freebore which none of them do.

The 9mm that keeps winning national championships has a .100" freebore on a 1 degree angle. Jerry Keefer did this one. Not sure if the freebore is on a one degree angle or if it is parallel then the leade-ins are on a one degree. I am willing to bet Mr. Keefer probably would like to keep that detail confidential...

I tend to throat even longer, I like to have enough freebore for the boolit to leave the case and sit in freebore which holds it perpendicular to centerline, and concentric with the bore, as it moves toward the leade-ins and the rifling. This freebore is smaller in diameter than the expanded case mouth, so the boolit has a gradual path to the rifling, this is very similar to what a Taylor Throat does in a revolver barrel, the same as Gary Reeder's Maxi-Throat. Nothing new, just a common sense approach to getting the boolit aligned more precisely into the bore once it begins movement out of the case.

Plus, the longer you can seat a 9mm, the better it feeds from the magazine into the chamber. 40 S&W, 45 ACP, same thing.

[gpidaho]

I load that bullet to 1.050 and have had no pressure issues YMMV. Gp

[Pbaker]

I haven't settled on a OAL yet, I just started with 1.110" per my Lyman manual for a 120gr TC boolit. I'm loading with 3.3gr of TG, so I didn't want to seat it too deep. But I agree the it's likely just a tight(ish) chamber. I know my Dillon case gauge is on the lower end of the spectrum too. I like the idea of throating the barrel too, although I'm not sure the bullet is touching the lands yet? The ejected rounds show no sign of wear on the case or boolit.

I should note that I haven't shot any of my devolopment loads, and .357 may be just fine. I really need to get out and shoot these loads and see if I'm wasting time trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. :roll:

[Tom W.]

When I had Glocks they would shoot .358 boolits all day long. So would my Ruger LC9 s pro. I bought a CZ 75 SP01 and the .358 would leave a most tiny ring of lead, causing the pistol to jam.
I bought a different mold, a Lee 125 gr rf and sized a bunch to .358 figuring that if the CZ didn't feed them the Ruger would. Much to my surprise I haven't had the first jam with those boolits at that size, and I've fired a fair amount of rounds daring it to jam.
I have no idea why the first boolits, a Lee tc would give me fits and the others are like ( dare I say it ) factory rounds......

[FLINTNFIRE]

Seat the bullet deeper , if you are not running max loads you should have no issue if 357 does not lead and does not keyhole you have a winner , if your 358 will seat deeper and pass the plunk test shoot them both and use what feeds the most reliable and is most accurate .

[ioon44]

I would forget the Dillon case gauge, your loaded ammo needs to fit the barrel not the case gauge, as some have said seat the bullet deeper and lower the powder charge if you need to.

[243winxb]

Yes, you need to test the loaded rounds first.

Larger diameter bullets may not work with all brass. Tapered case walls get thicker. More a problem with the 147 gr that seat deeper.

[Rich/WIS]

I've loaded a lot of 9mm in the past,sized at .357 without issue in a Glock and a CZ 85 using the Lee 120 TC bullet. Never tried .358 but looking at the picture it seems to me that the bullet is not seated deeply enough. Like others said seat deeper and plunk test in your barrel.

[Pbaker]

Thanks for all of the input everyone. I did some playing around with my OAL. Looks like the sweet spot using a .358 is around 1.080". This does vary a little, I assume because of varying case thickness. I'm going to reduce OAL by .005" or so and try some light loads and work up from there. Like we have all mentioned, I'm not even sure a .358 is necessary, but I wanted to try .357 and .358 at the same time, for the sake of time. It is really important that I work up some safe loads on .358, so this thread had been very helpful. I think that a load with 3.3gr of TG set to 1.075" will be a good starting point. I'm not looking for a max load, just a good round that's accurate, eventually working up to make a good minor load.

[Flailguy]

Just a thought but I have had this problem with CBC headstamp brass.

[PJEagle]

Based on my experience, I would send the barrel to DougGuy and have it throated. The man knows what he is doing and his prices are reasonable.

[Burnt Fingers]

I would have DougGuy throat the barrel. 9mm is EXTREMELY sensitive when it comes to seating bullets deeper. One can double chamber pressure pretty quick by doing so. Just read the section on 9mm in any recent RCBS manual.

None of the 9mm barrels I've seen have SAMMI spec throats. NONE.

Case gauges are cut very tight. Usually SAMMI minimum. They also have no throat. They are designed to work with jacketed bullets only.

More crimp isn't going to work either. The right amount of crimp removes the flare, that's it.

I've had DougGuy do a 9mm barrel for me. The results are amazing.

[onelight]

If .357 works why do you want .358?
Just curious.

[Burnt Fingers]

If .357 works why do you want .358?
Just curious.

I would guess to only have to have one size for both 9mm and .38/.357

[onelight]

I would guess to only have to have one size for both 9mm and .38/.357

That makes sense.

[Pbaker]

Honestly, I haven't tried .357 or .358 yet. So it's very likely this conversation is all for nothing. I am more worried about working up some safe, useful loads, so I can take a trip to the range and try both. Been really busy this week, so I'm not sure when I'll have time. [smilie=b: