Homosexuality and God

[dverna]

The Untied Methodist Church is about to split over the issue of gay pastors and marriages. A post from Ickisrulz on another thread was very helpful to my understanding of the how homosexuality is viewed in the Bible.

I am curious to understand the other side of the issue. What are the scriptures that support homosexuality in the Bible?

I know at least three gay men. They are good people and well above average in intelligence. I enjoy their company even though I do not understand or support their lifestyle. They harm no one. One fellow is in his twenties and the son of a couple we have become friends with....but he is in a bad place. He is one of the smartest people I have ever met but is suicidal. Coming from an Evangelical home has not made things easy for him or his parents.

My way of dealing with this issue is laissez-faire. They are adults and have the right to live as they choose. They are sinners as I am too.

I have an issue with accepting their sins as equal to mine. I do not accept their lifestyle as "normal". Yet, I would rather have my gay friends at our home with our grandchildren than some of the drunkards, drug users, etc that we also know.

I have committed adultery...it seems to be regarded just as badly as homosexuality in the Bible. Am I just as "bad"? I am not proud of what I have done and repentant.

Lastly, and to the point. If homosexuality is a sin, how can a church that believes in the word of God, accept leaders that openly commit sin without repentance? I am not suggesting churches should exclude homosexuals, as they need God as much as all of us do, but I cannot wrap my head around how they can serve as role models and teachers.

So please, if the Bible finds homosexuality acceptable, share those thoughts. If you do not wish to do so publicly, PM me.

Thank you.

[John McCorkle]

There is alot here, far more than we can likely cover here. However, the issue of sin and gradients of sin is purely man-made. Let me explain.

In heaven, the most powerful terrifying and awe inspiring creatures ever created surround the throne of God. Evidence in the Bible shows nearly every time a human sees an angel - terror fear and awe to worship is automatic...so much so that the angels have to stop the humans from worshipping. These beings surrounding the throne are magnitudes or order greater, more powerful and even more terrifying. They spend all day for eternity saying "Holy, Holy, Holy".... they aren't robots...they aren't mindless. The only response they can utter in the presence of God is to proclaim His Holiness....

God is so Holy, so magnificent, so righteous that sin that we would shrug off is eternal cosmic treason to Him. Sin...on a nutshell is our declaration of our autonomy from God and our assuming the throne of our own lives. This can and has taken a million forms throughout time...but any)all of it is what God calls sin. Sin of any sort brings immediate punishment from a God so infinitely Holy and Just...but He has grace...and patience...which is why any of us have breath in our lungs. He would be completely just to wipe off the face of the Earth everyone for our rebellion against Him. This is the God of the Bible. He is Love but He is also so much more...He describes Himself as so much more...Just, Holy, Righteous. It is our low view of God that gives us the strange games of comparing sins and grading them on our own standard of severity. If we don't see God as white hot Holiness and pure justified wrathful anger against sin against Him...then we will repeat what the devil told our ancestors"did God say this..." "You shall not surely die..."

Homosexuality, adultery, lying, theft, murder, greed, ingratitude and everyone of the millions of other forms of blasphemy our hearts cling to in our own assertion of autonomy is deadly rebellion against our Creator. Homosexuality says 'you can't tell me who I can and can't marry, love or sleep with' ...it isn't primarily about the physics but the heart posture that says "God you aren't God, I am, and I feel this way and I don't care what you say...my feelings are this and I will act on my feelings as if I were God not you..." It is a rebellion against God and His Lordship.

The people you know may not realize this is their hearts posture. They may be wonderful people...most people are. I have no doubt they display aspects of love and graciousness and sacrificial kindness in ways many of us would and should desire to be more like. This does not nullify their ascention to the throne of their own lives...and this applies to us all. No matter how good you are, all of us have sinned...and claimed what is rightfully God's. This is why we find such good news in Jesus. Without Jesus, we would be standing in full weight of God's Holy wrath...His words not mine. We would all perish...His words not mine. Jesus is our only hope to be saved not from hell...but from God's wrath. We are saved not from the devil....but saved from God's wrath..His words not mine. Jesus is such sweet news because we are in such a damnable place without Him.

Our low view of God...our low view of our sin...makes us see and believe in a god that does not exist in the Bible. It allows us to justify ourselves and play comparison games. God is not such a low puny god as we have often assumed and as our culture would believe. God is love, but He also drowned every person on the face of the planet that wasn't in a boat He put them in because of sin. He is also coming again, with a sword and tattoo on his thigh with vengeance...it's not a place I want to be standing to say "I am god of my life" when the God of the Bible comes back to set the world back in its place.

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[Markopolo]

Sin is Sin. love the person, hate the sin. we don't get to pick and choose. I dont have anything to support the practice based on the bible. one sin is not greater then another except in our eyes. i dont believe people that openly commit sin should be leaders of any church. nothing is kept in the dark for long.

Titus 1:5-13,15-16 NKJV
[5] For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you- [6] if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, [8] but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, [9] holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. [10] For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, [11] whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. [12] One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." [13] This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, [15] To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. [16] They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

hope this helps.

[Hickory]

Seems like another thread that will only promote contention and strife with only those opinions that think it's really bad and those who eye it with wonder lust.
I'll start the popcorn this time!

[Bulldogger]

God loves all his children. We should aspire to no less, regardless of our own personal preferences.
BDGR

[mozeppa]

(sonny) ..."and the beat goes on!"

(cher) ..."and the beat goes on!"

[KenH]

I think perhaps what the OP is asking, can anyone list chapter 'n verse in the NEW testament (old has been full filled) where the Bible says Homosexuality is a sin. I'm sure there are places, but don't think there are many. In the Old Testament there are places, but the Old Testament also says don't eat pork and don't do a host of other things.

[John McCorkle]

I think perhaps what the OP is asking, can anyone list chapter 'n verse in the NEW testament (old has been full filled) where the Bible says Homosexuality is a sin. I'm sure there are places, but don't think there are many. In the Old Testament there are places, but the Old Testament also says don't eat pork and don't do a host of other things.Romans is a good place to start. It's also important to mention that old testament is not passed away and to be ignored. That's a way of interpreting scripture that is not true. Jesus Himself references the old testament often. As do the apostles. As do the many letters to the new testament church.

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-value-is-the-old-testament-to-the-christian-life


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[dverna]

Sin is Sin. love the person, hate the sin. we don't get to pick and choose. I dont have anything to support the practice based on the bible. one sin is not greater then another except in our eyes. i dont believe people that openly commit sin should be leaders of any church. nothing is kept in the dark for long.



This is where I am at.

What is astounding is the "traditional" Methodist church is the one splitting away. Most of the church is in favor of having LBGT pastors and leaders.

It begs the question...if all pastors are sinners (which is a given), and all sins are equal, what are the attributes/standards to be a pastor?

I have looked at Timothy and there is direction given there that pastors should be held to a higher standard.

[6bg6ga]

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.

[WebMonkey]

The translated term "sexual immorality" includes homosexual behavior.

Just like "no talking in class" includes shouting, singing, beat boxing, rapping, etc.

The people hearing scripture in those times understood that.
It had been clearly explained and understood for centuries.

We don't get to choose how we are born, we do get to choose how we live.
Even unto death.

[John McCorkle]

This is where I am at.

What is astounding is the "traditional" Methodist church is the one splitting away. Most of the church is in favor of having LBGT pastors and leaders.

It begs the question...if all pastors are sinners (which is a given), and all sins are equal, what are the attributes/standards to be a pastor?

I have looked at Timothy and there is direction given there that pastors should be held to a higher standard.So good questions,

As I understand it the Methodist Church has repeatedly held votes on this issue through the years and the majority vote went to those who did not agree with ordaining ministers who either were practicing homosexual or who agreed to marry homosexual couples...in accordance with the entirety of Christian doctrine throughout history and as revealed in scripture.

The minority group violently disagreed and chose to disregard the church's position on this and did as they wanted anyways and continued to fight church efforts. The majority decided to leave as the minority would not.

The minority position, they hold sincerely, is based on their interpretation of scripture...and hold that disallowing homosexual couples from marrying is sin...and they back their beliefs with some manner of scriptural fervency. The truth however is you cannot hold scripture in the authority of God's word and believe what they believe. To be sure you can believe alot of things by twisting scripture...you've seen this throughout history starting with the serpent in the garden.

We have to be so so so careful with the handling of scripture and what we proclaim as truth because to come to scripture with a desired outcome instead of reading it for what God says and by the interpretation of scripture used to interpret scripture...by the power of the Holy spirit and by sound doctrine we would all be likewise deceived.

Pastors are held to a higher standard. Starting with their declaration of God as Lord, their repentance sincerely to God away from their sins, and their observable sanctification from sin as a pattern of life confirmed by elders, leaders and church body.

The issue again isn't just the mechanics of what they do or don't...what they approve or don't...but where their heart posture is to begin with that leads to any/all of this is what qualifies or disqualifies them as a pastor. Their sins and approval of sin is a downstream outworking of their heart posture. In contrast it is the humble repentance and contrite heart of love for others and the faithful handling of scripture in repentance from sin that would qualify a pastor to be a pastor.

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[Ickisrulz]

Just to clarify, homosexuality is different than homosexual behavior. There are Christians who have same-sex attractions that do not act on them and therefore do not sin.

Healthy heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, but are not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. To do so is prohibited by God in the Bible. Once a couple gets married, they can have all the sex they want to and they do not sin. Homosexuals do not have this option. A thoughtful Christian can see the situation the homosexual is in and have empathy. This doesn't mean homosexual behavior should be condoned. Just because we "feel" like doing something doesn't make it right.

dverna: How can churches ignore the Bible's stance on homosexuality and ordain gay leaders? It is because they do not believe in Scriptural inerrancy. When people dismiss portions of the Bible as having errors, being misleading or contradictory this is what happens. You end up with churches that are no more than social clubs because they don't deal with mankind's needs.

[John McCorkle]

Just to clarify, homosexuality is different than homosexual behavior. There are Christians who have same-sex attractions that do not act on them and therefore do not sin.

Healthy heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, but are not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. To do so is prohibited by God in the Bible. Once a couple gets married, they can have all the sex they want to and they do not sin. Homosexuals do not have this option. A thoughtful Christian can see the situation the homosexual is in and have empathy. This doesn't mean homosexual behavior should be condoned. Just because we "feel" like doing something doesn't make it right.

dverna: How can churches ignore the Bible's stance on homosexuality and ordain gay leaders? It is because they do not believe in Scriptural inerrancy. When people dismiss portions of the Bible as having errors, being misleading or contradictory this is what happens. You end up with churches that are no more than social clubs because they don't deal with mankind's needs.Well stated

There is immense grace and care for those that have same sex attraction and recognize the limitations that places on the ability to act or express that....but the same things apply to those with hetro attraction outside of marriage... lust, fornication and etc...

My heart aches for those that are told by culture that their identity is in their sexuality instead of Christ...it is the air our culture breathes to claim our autonomy from Lordship of God. I have friends who have same sex attraction and it is immensely difficult in our culture to hold to a decision to remain single and pure. They have what Paul calls the gift of singleness.

I pray for strength for those brothers and sisters...pray for increased dependency on Christ and grace to forgive those who don't understand their position in Christ.

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[a danl]

The Untied Methodist Church is about to split over the issue of gay pastors and marriages. A post from Ickisrulz on another thread was very helpful to my understanding of the how homosexuality is viewed in the Bible.

I am curious to understand the other side of the issue. What are the scriptures that support homosexuality in the Bible?

I know at least three gay men. They are good people and well above average in intelligence. I enjoy their company even though I do not understand or support their lifestyle. They harm no one. One fellow is in his twenties and the son of a couple we have become friends with....but he is in a bad place. He is one of the smartest people I have ever met but is suicidal. Coming from an Evangelical home has not made things easy for him or his parents.

My way of dealing with this issue is laissez-faire. They are adults and have the right to live as they choose. They are sinners as I am too.

I have an issue with accepting their sins as equal to mine. I do not accept their lifestyle as "normal". Yet, I would rather have my gay friends at our home with our grandchildren than some of the drunkards, drug users, etc that we also know.

I have committed adultery...it seems to be regarded just as badly as homosexuality in the Bible. Am I just as "bad"? I am not proud of what I have done and repentant.

Lastly, and to the point. If homosexuality is a sin, how can a church that believes in the word of God, accept leaders that openly commit sin without repentance? I am not suggesting churches should exclude homosexuals, as they need God as much as all of us do, but I cannot wrap my head around how they can serve as role models and teachers.

So please, if the Bible finds homosexuality acceptable, share those thoughts. If you do not wish to do so publicly, PM me.

Thank you.

i urge one to read 'romans chapter #1' and in verse 26 it reads " for this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error." and i'll just add this "Jesus is not valued at all if he is not valued above all"

[dverna]

Just to clarify, homosexuality is different than homosexual behavior. There are Christians who have same-sex attractions that do not act on them and therefore do not sin.

Healthy heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, but are not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. To do so is prohibited by God in the Bible. Once a couple gets married, they can have all the sex they want to and they do not sin. Homosexuals do not have this option. A thoughtful Christian can see the situation the homosexual is in and have empathy. This doesn't mean homosexual behavior should be condoned. Just because we "feel" like doing something doesn't make it right.

dverna: How can churches ignore the Bible's stance on homosexuality and ordain gay leaders? It is because they do not believe in Scriptural inerrancy. When people dismiss portions of the Bible as having errors, being misleading or contradictory this is what happens. You end up with churches that are no more than social clubs because they don't deal with mankind's needs.

Agree!!!

I can understand inerrancy is something like Genesis. The 6 days of Creation may not be 24 hour days. Such inerrancy does not affect the root of our beliefs...God is the Creator....whether is took 144 hours for 14 billion years does not really matter in our understanding of God and His desires for how we should live.

So far, no one has offered any rationale how homosexuality can be accepted as an alternative lifestyle within the context of the Bible. And certainly not acceptable for a pastor. I cannot find anything on the internet either but my search skills are not the best so that is why I started this thread.

[JimB..]

Why ask this question?

I’m serious.

[sniper]

Having read the prohibitions in both the Old and New Testaments, I attempt to follow the admonition; "Judge not unrighteously..."
A large Christian University has recently stated; (paraphrasing) "Declaration of sexual orientation is not grounds for punitive action."

And I believe this statement by a Church spokesman sums it up nicely.

" We have talked too much about GENDER, and too little about CHASTITY.
We do not make a judgement about someone's attraction.
We don't make any attempt to say why or how that happened...
what we do say is that we all must be chaste...we go with what the LORD has revealed about chastity."

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

[Ickisrulz]

Agree!!!

I can understand inerrancy is something like Genesis. The 6 days of Creation may not be 24 hour days. Such inerrancy does not affect the root of our beliefs...God is the Creator....whether is took 144 hours for 14 billion years does not really matter in our understanding of God and His desires for how we should live.

So far, no one has offered any rationale how homosexuality can be accepted as an alternative lifestyle within the context of the Bible. And certainly not acceptable for a pastor. I cannot find anything on the internet either but my search skills are not the best so that is why I started this thread.

Norman Geisler is considered an authority in the field of Christian ethics. In his book, Christian Ethics, he deals with many of the moral issues we face today. He explains why some Christians think the way they do even though the Bible says differently. He then makes his case for an ethical stance based on sound biblical interpretation.

Here is what he lists for arguments that proponents of homosexuality use to justify such behavior for Christians (I really have to summarize here):

1. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, it was selfishness and inhospitality.

2. Levitical Law (OT) no longer applies. The prohibitions against homosexuality were thrown out along with dietary restrictions.

3. Barrenness was a curse to Jewish women. The OT emphasized the blessing of having children, so it is not surprising that homosexuality (and its inability to produce children) was frowned upon.

4. Homosexuality was connected with idolatry. Therefore prohibitions of against homosexuality only applied to activity connected with idol worship.

5. Paul's condemnations of homosexuality were his private opinions. Since Paul admits he is giving his opinion (not God's command) when it comes to marriage in 1 Cor 7, it must also apply to the discourse in chapter 6.

6. Paul condemned long hair on men. Most Bible scholars understand this condemnation to be culturally based and not universally applicable. Therefore, there is no reason to see prohibitions on homosexual behavior any differently.

7. 1 Cor 6:9 speaks against homosexual offenses (offensive homosexual acts). Not every homosexual act is offensive. So Paul is approving of homosexual activity that is not offensive.

8. Heterosexual activity is unnatural for homosexuals. When Paul condemned "unnatural acts" in Romans 1:26 it did not apply to homosexuals. Homosexual acts are natural for homosexuals.

9. Isaiah predicted homosexuals in the kingdom. Isaiah 56:3 says eunuchs will be brought into the Kingdom of God. This suggests the acceptance of homosexuals into the kingdom.

10. David and Jonathan were homosexuals. The Bible says they loved each other, Jonathan stripped in David's presence and they kissed. David's difficulty with women was caused by his homosexuality.

It is easy to see the mental gymnastics in these arguments. Geisler shows the errors, but I am not going to type them out.

[a danl]

Norman Geisler is considered an authority in the field of Christian ethics. In his book, Christian Ethics, he deals with many of the moral issues we face today. He explains why some Christians think the way they do even though the Bible says differently. He then makes his case for an ethical stance based on sound biblical interpretation.

Here is what he lists for arguments that proponents of homosexuality use to justify such behavior for Christians (I really have to summarize here):

1. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, it was selfishness and inhospitality.

2. Levitical Law (OT) no longer applies. The prohibitions against homosexuality were thrown out along with dietary restrictions.

3. Barrenness was a curse to Jewish women. The OT emphasized the blessing of having children, so it is not surprising that homosexuality (and its inability to produce children) was frowned upon.

4. Homosexuality was connected with idolatry. Therefore prohibitions of against homosexuality only applied to activity connected with idol worship.

5. Paul's condemnations of homosexuality were his private opinions. Since Paul admits he is giving his opinion (not God's command) when it comes to marriage in 1 Cor 7, it must also apply to the discourse in chapter 6.

6. Paul condemned long hair on men. Most Bible scholars understand this condemnation to be culturally based and not universally applicable. Therefore, there is no reason to see prohibitions on homosexual behavior any differently.

7. 1 Cor 6:9 speaks against homosexual offenses (offensive homosexual acts). Not every homosexual act is offensive. So Paul is approving of homosexual activity that is not offensive.

8. Heterosexual activity is unnatural for homosexuals. When Paul condemned "unnatural acts" in Romans 1:26 it did not apply to homosexuals. Homosexual acts are natural for homosexuals.

9. Isaiah predicted homosexuals in the kingdom. Isaiah 56:3 says eunuchs will be brought into the Kingdom of God. This suggests the acceptance of homosexuals into the kingdom.

10. David and Jonathan were homosexuals. The Bible says they loved each other, Jonathan stripped in David's presence and they kissed. David's difficulty with women was caused by his homosexuality.

It is easy to see the mental gymnastics in these arguments. Geisler shows the errors, but I am not going to type them out.

question...what makes you think that eunuchs were homosexuals ? they were eunuchs for a particular job, which had nothing to do with sexual behavior .

[Ickisrulz]

question...what makes you think that eunuchs were homosexuals ? they were eunuchs for a particular job, which had nothing to do with sexual behavior .

As stated in the post, Norman Geisler lists these 10 points that are used by Christians to justify homosexual behavior. Geisler does not agree with them and neither do I.

Anyway...eunuchs are not homosexual, they are asexual. Isaiah was definitely not referring to homosexuals in chapter 56. Some commentators understand Isaiah to be referring to individuals who have given up the possibility of marriage for the Kingdom of God, rather than to physically castrated men (see Matt 9:11-12).

[John McCorkle]

question...what makes you think that eunuchs were homosexuals ? they were eunuchs for a particular job, which had nothing to do with sexual behavior .I don't think he is saying he that at all ...I believe what he was doing is listing some or typical pro homosexual apologetics...he wasn't stating his support of those points just listing them as how some view scripture and perform acts of gymnastics to support their position

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[RoyEllis]

Just to clarify, homosexuality is different than homosexual behavior. There are Christians who have same-sex attractions that do not act on them and therefore do not sin.

Healthy heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, but are not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. To do so is prohibited by God in the Bible. Once a couple gets married, they can have all the sex they want to and they do not sin. Homosexuals do not have this option. A thoughtful Christian can see the situation the homosexual is in and have empathy. This doesn't mean homosexual behavior should be condoned. Just because we "feel" like doing something doesn't make it right.

dverna: How can churches ignore the Bible's stance on homosexuality and ordain gay leaders? It is because they do not believe in Scriptural inerrancy. When people dismiss portions of the Bible as having errors, being misleading or contradictory this is what happens. You end up with churches that are no more than social clubs because they don't deal with mankind's needs.

I look at that highlited in red differently....as stated by Jesus in Matthew 5 (sermon on the mount)

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


I would surmise that since homosexuals tend to view their couples as "man and woman", then their thoughts of lust toward another are likewise viewed by God as sin committed in their heart.

[Ickisrulz]

I look at that highlited in red differently....as stated by Jesus in Matthew 5 (sermon on the mount)

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


I would surmise that since homosexuals tend to view their couples as "man and woman", then their thoughts of lust toward another are likewise viewed by God as sin committed in their heart.

Are you saying anytime a man finds a woman attractive he has committed adultery in his heart? I don't agree with that idea.

There is a big difference between being attracted to someone and lusting after them. The first cannot be helped and the latter is an active process (behavior).

Maybe your sanctification is more complete than mine, but I have been attracted to several women during the course of my marriage. However, I never acted on these attractions or plotted a way engage in sexual activity.

[RoyEllis]

Are you saying anytime a man finds a woman attractive he has committed adultery in his heart? I don't agree with that idea.

There is a big difference between being attracted to someone and lusting after them. The first cannot be helped and the latter is an active process (behavior).

Maybe your sanctification is more complete than mine, but I have been attracted to several women during the course of my marriage. However, I never acted on these attractions or plotted a way engage in sexual activity.

No sir, not what I was attempting to say at all. In fact my view aligns with yours 100% regarding a distinct difference between recognizing something or someone possessing attractive qualities and the lusting or coveting of that attractiveness with the intent of converting to a state of possessing same. To an example only, say you were to show me a prized custom rifle with exquisitely figured grain in the stock. I say to you "Wow that's a super gorgeous rifle stock....the finest grain and finishing work I've ever seen!". That is merely admiration for attractiveness...not a sin. However, if i were to see your rifle and have thoughts to form a plan to take it from you...sin of coveting, even if I don't follow through with action.
Now maybe I'm weird, maybe I look at it wrong, but trust me....my sanctification is quite far from being greater than yours in my estimation. I am certainly a work in progress and sometimes I fear I haven't enough years to achieve a respectable percentage of it.
You can't begin to imagine how it frustrates me to be incapable of making my thoughts clear with simple typed words...I apologize if my imperfect command of written words has caused me to offend you, I just wanted to share my viewpoint based on my understanding of the Lord's words.

[John McCorkle]

No sir, not what I was attempting to say at all. In fact my view aligns with yours 100% regarding a distinct difference between recognizing something or someone possessing attractive qualities and the lusting or coveting of that attractiveness with the intent of converting to a state of possessing same. To an example only, say you were to show me a prized custom rifle with exquisitely figured grain in the stock. I say to you "Wow that's a super gorgeous rifle stock....the finest grain and finishing work I've ever seen!". That is merely admiration for attractiveness...not a sin. However, if i were to see your rifle and have thoughts to form a plan to take it from you...sin of coveting, even if I don't follow through with action.
Now maybe I'm weird, maybe I look at it wrong, but trust me....my sanctification is quite far from being greater than yours in my estimation. I am certainly a work in progress and sometimes I fear I haven't enough years to achieve a respectable percentage of it.
You can't begin to imagine how it frustrates me to be incapable of making my thoughts clear with simple typed words...I apologize if my imperfect command of written words has caused me to offend you, I just wanted to share my viewpoint based on my understanding of the Lord's words.Haha great analogy

Actually works super well for this crowd. Where one person would look at the rifle and appreciate it and be glad you had such a rifle.... someone else would desire it for themselves and envy, covet or lust after it...which are all clearly sinful responses.

The same standards apply to all when it comes to coveting your neighbors wife as it does to covet your neighbors husband.

But good analogy I'll use that one

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[Ickisrulz]

No sir, not what I was attempting to say at all. In fact my view aligns with yours 100% regarding a distinct difference between recognizing something or someone possessing attractive qualities and the lusting or coveting of that attractiveness with the intent of converting to a state of possessing same. To an example only, say you were to show me a prized custom rifle with exquisitely figured grain in the stock. I say to you "Wow that's a super gorgeous rifle stock....the finest grain and finishing work I've ever seen!". That is merely admiration for attractiveness...not a sin. However, if i were to see your rifle and have thoughts to form a plan to take it from you...sin of coveting, even if I don't follow through with action.
Now maybe I'm weird, maybe I look at it wrong, but trust me....my sanctification is quite far from being greater than yours in my estimation. I am certainly a work in progress and sometimes I fear I haven't enough years to achieve a respectable percentage of it.
You can't begin to imagine how it frustrates me to be incapable of making my thoughts clear with simple typed words...I apologize if my imperfect command of written words has caused me to offend you, I just wanted to share my viewpoint based on my understanding of the Lord's words.

I think I understand what you meant. I wasn't offended by what you had written.

[Wild Bill 7]

Leviticus 18:22. Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. My opinion is that when Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead the religious part of the old law was put away. You can be saved by the blood of Christ instead of animal sacrifice. All other laws are still in effect. If you do not believe in Jesus then you set your own laws according to how far your perversion goes. Jesus said I am the way,the Truth and the life. No one comes to the Father EXCEPT through Me. John 14:6. We have our own free will that is where you go the straight and narrow or highway to hell. Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both have done what is detestable. They must be put to death and their blood will be on their own heads. To me the devil is working overtime to claim as many souls as possible because he knows he is doomed and wants as many there with him. The church's that snub their noses at the word of God will answer for their deeds at judgement day. Now this rant is what I think and I will probably get some flack for my opinion but that's ok because I have to answer for my deeds at judgement day also.

[dverna]

Why ask this question?

I’m serious.

I currently attend an E-free church, but I am looking at exploring other denominations.

If my understanding of homosexuality being a sin is correct, I would not trust a church that accepts sin as normal, and to be accommodated, to help me in my faith journey. I will go elsewhere.

Many here have a far greater knowledge of what is in Bible, thus the request in my first post. My internet search to find supporting evidence wrt to acceptance of homosexuality was fruitless....but I am not good at internet searches.

[Wayne Smith]

Couple of issues here. Don, sin is normal - it is universal and if defined as 'falling short of the glory of God' it is my life. As has already been so elegantly been said in this thread the Holy God cannot ignore my condition of sin. That is why Christ died for me and you, because without His sacrifice we have no hope of approaching this.

Our job is to avoid the obvious sins that we recognize to try to become as holy as we can in this fallen world and in these fallen bodies. If you want to know what you need to work on just ask God and he will tell you! It will never be enough, Christ is our only hope.

The issue of the Church (the local one, that is) is to try to maintain as close to orthodoxy as possible. John tells us that one who continues in sin was never saved, they lied to themselves and others. Jesus essentially said this as well when he talked of the end times. Thus as leaders in the Church we should never approve of one who continues in sin or defends his decision to remain in sin, no matter what the sin. Gossip and gluttony are the generally sanctified sins in the Evangelical Church - watch out for them. Homosexuality or adultery are no worse or different in God's eyes than gossip and gluttony. We (LOML and I) refused to return to a Church in part because all three of the women on the stage leading the worship singing were morbidly obese. (morbidly obese is a medical term used in that way) This is a Church which approved of a sin by having them there.

Obviously, in light of the above, having a pastor who is insistent on his 'right' to sin is not to be allowed. The same would or should be true of anyone in a leadership position in the Church.

Let me throw another verse into the mix - and it is repeated three times in Scripture "God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble". He showed me that it means that He opposes me when I am proud (insisting on my way) and gives me grace when I am humble (in submission to Him). I am still a sinner, still wanting my own way, and thus at times opposed by God himself! No wonder I fail!

In short, the issue is not homosexuality, or sexuality in general, it is, and always has been, sin.

[1hole]

I look at that highlited in red differently....as stated by Jesus in Matthew 5 (sermon on the mount)

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Looking at and admiring is not evil, as such, nor is it automatically "lust" and God does indeed examine men's heart. If a man sees and admires an attractive woman it's harmless; if he sees and LUSTS for her body THEN it is, spiritually and for him, the same as adultery but even then it is NOT the same as if he has accomplished his lust. Adultery demands a deliberate act by both parties and that accomplishment is much worse in God's eyes than a fleeting thought. Everyone knew adultery is wrong, Jesus spoke here to explain that the heart's desire is also wrong.


I would surmise that since homosexuals tend to view their couples as "man and woman", then their thoughts of lust toward another are likewise viewed by God as sin committed in their heart.

I think you're overthinking this issue; the way they live is wrong. I doubt God spends much time weighing the relative level between sins from those who have rejected His salvation by faith in and spiritual adherence to our Lord Jesus. Remember, disbelief in Him is the ONLY sin that keeps anyone out of heaven and those who deliberately live sinfully certainly can't honestly claim to "believe" in Jesus and be committed to him. I screw up from time to time but the thought of committing and living in delibert sin scares the h3ll out of me!

On the other hand, fully meeting the legal requirements of God's Mosaic Law without being spiritually born again can make us look good to the world but it gains us nothing before God. ( See Matt 7:21-23, 26-27 )

Seems a lot of us overlook what the required "new birth" and becoming a "new creature" in Christ means; at least part of what it means is our new creature outlook precludes clinging with desires to continue sinning. Like Paul, none of us are perfect in this life but no new Christian can remain what he was. ( See Romans 7)

[a danl]

don, it is good that you have these questions and the only thing i can say is that all your questions can be and are answered in the bible; that is why whatever church you attend must be a bible preaching church, there is no other way to god except thru jesus , god's only son. it also takes a lot of sundays hearing god's word preached along with a lot of personal study of it. just this last sunday our teacher warned us that a lot of people miss heaven by about 15 inches meaning that they have head knowledge but it hasn't reached their heart. i sincerely hope this helps in your search of the truth. a danl

[JimB..]

I currently attend an E-free church, but I am looking at exploring other denominations.

If my understanding of homosexuality being a sin is correct, I would not trust a church that accepts sin as normal, and to be accommodated, to help me in my faith journey. I will go elsewhere.

Many here have a far greater knowledge of what is in Bible, thus the request in my first post. My internet search to find supporting evidence wrt to acceptance of homosexuality was fruitless....but I am not good at internet searches.
Thanks Don, good luck with your journey!

I don’t have an answer to your question, but I could not follow the teachings of a church that allows openly gay clergy. My perspective is perhaps hypocritical, I sin every day and my pastor sins everyday, and everyone I know sins every day, but I have a hangup about that particular sin. Maybe it’s really the normalizing or dismissing of it that troubles me, for example I wouldn’t have a pastor that was unmarried and openly having relations with someone of either sex. It’s not a good way to live, and I already have plenty of bad examples.

[dtknowles]

One faction is pandering to a progressive demographic and should no longer be considered truly Christian.

I don't condemn them. I myself don't consider the Bible the true word of God and I am not Christian.

I don't see how you can claim to be a Christian religion and ordain homosexual pastors.

I was married by a Methodist pastor. I told him straight out I would not swear that Jesus was my Lord and Savior as I did not believe that but that I would allow my wife and children to attend his church and sometimes I would accompany them. I am not afraid of the bibles and think children need to be exposed to religion. It is just part of life.

I imagine that a Methodist Church lead by a Lesbian Pastor might or could be a positive learning situation but I think it is hardly a shining example of Christianity. The hypocrisy is a little much.

In the previous post the poster said " I sin every day and my pastor sins everyday, and everyone I know sins every day," Really, I don't feel like I have sinned in quite a long time. I discount the first few commandments as not relevant, like the whole Sabbath thing but I have not disrespected my parents, lied, stolen, killed, coveted, or committed adultery (not since I got married again 5 years ago) in a long time. I guess I might sin once a week since I don't go to church but I still treat Sunday as special and I thank God when I can go to the range on Sunday. It is not in the 10 commandments but if I sin on a regular basis it is the sin of pride. I am proud of how good I am. That is a sin in my mind and work to keep it in check. Why is it not in the ten commandments?

Tim

[Wayne Smith]

Tim, it is. "Put no other God before me" - pride puts me before God and makes an idol of me. That's why I posted that God himself opposes me when I'm proud. That is one of his infinite ways of loving me.

[Hickory]

Norman Geisler is considered an authority in the field of Christian ethics. In his book, Christian Ethics, he deals with many of the moral issues we face today. He explains why some Christians think the way they do even though the Bible says differently. He then makes his case for an ethical stance based on sound biblical interpretation.

Here is what he lists for arguments that proponents of homosexuality use to justify such behavior for Christians (I really have to summarize here):

1. The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, it was selfishness and inhospitality.

2. Levitical Law (OT) no longer applies. The prohibitions against homosexuality were thrown out along with dietary restrictions.

3. Barrenness was a curse to Jewish women. The OT emphasized the blessing of having children, so it is not surprising that homosexuality (and its inability to produce children) was frowned upon.

4. Homosexuality was connected with idolatry. Therefore prohibitions of against homosexuality only applied to activity connected with idol worship.

5. Paul's condemnations of homosexuality were his private opinions. Since Paul admits he is giving his opinion (not God's command) when it comes to marriage in 1 Cor 7, it must also apply to the discourse in chapter 6.

6. Paul condemned long hair on men. Most Bible scholars understand this condemnation to be culturally based and not universally applicable. Therefore, there is no reason to see prohibitions on homosexual behavior any differently.

7. 1 Cor 6:9 speaks against homosexual offenses (offensive homosexual acts). Not every homosexual act is offensive. So Paul is approving of homosexual activity that is not offensive.

8. Heterosexual activity is unnatural for homosexuals. When Paul condemned "unnatural acts" in Romans 1:26 it did not apply to homosexuals. Homosexual acts are natural for homosexuals.

9. Isaiah predicted homosexuals in the kingdom. Isaiah 56:3 says eunuchs will be brought into the Kingdom of God. This suggests the acceptance of homosexuals into the kingdom.

10. David and Jonathan were homosexuals. The Bible says they loved each other, Jonathan stripped in David's presence and they kissed. David's difficulty with women was caused by his homosexuality.

It is easy to see the mental gymnastics in these arguments. Geisler shows the errors, but I am not going to type them out.

Replacing Gods law and commandments with one man's opinion which more than likely goes against the Word of God and is untrue should be dismissed out of hand.
There are always people who will twist God's Word to justify their twisted and sinful actions. I would just let them walk their own destructive path as long as it only involved the sick minded that traveled it. But, they deceive and draw in the innocent and unknowing.
I would be remiss to say nothing and subject to Gods displeasure.
Homosexuality is sinful and destructive to all involved.

[dverna]

I have mentioned before that my best friend is a Methodist. He was instrumental in guiding me to Christ. Below is an email exchange I recently had with him. I am disturbed by it, but he closes with "more to come" so I will see.

First my email to him with some personal stuff edited out:
"I see that the United Methodist Church is on the verge of finalizing their split. I am trying to understand and trust you can help me do that.

The traditional view is simple to comprehend. LBGT relationships are sins.

I suspect the "progressive" view is that we should love everyone. Are there any other justifications that are being used to support LBGT behavior by pastors and church leaders? Are these thoughts supported by scripture?

We are all sinners. That means pastors are sinners as well. But I see a difference with the LBGT issue. That is repentance. I have committed adultery. I knew is was wrong and I have repented. I get the impression that the LBGT'ers do not believe they are committing a sin and there is no repentance...for them it is their "normal".

The Book of Timothy speaks to holding pastors and church leaders to a higher standard. When sin becomes acceptable and is actively practiced by church leaders something is wrong.

I have empathy for homosexuals. I can love them as people but I cannot condone the sin.

Thanks for any light you can shed on this."


My friends response:

"Only a brief reply. One I guess you will find unsatisfactory.

I have been part of the United Methodist group for several years. I am disgusted by the conservative position. It is unfounded and mean-spirited.

There is nothing in the Bible indicating that homosexuality is sinful. That point of view is one created by people, for whatever reason. It is a mistake to give that point of view much credence.

Moreover - and more importantly - we are all sinners, saved by Grace, and charged to love one another. The parable about removing the log (sin) from one’s own eye first is meaningful to me. We are instructed (by Christ) to live as best we can and not judge others. I believe it is wrong to exclude people of any stripe who have a genuine interest in being a Christian. Our task is to love one another. There is no ‘ranking’ of sins. No one is better than anyone else - we are all sinners. God will do the judging when the time comes.

More later. "


It is astounding. I have found references in the Bible showing homosexuality is a sin....none that find it acceptable. Here, a highly intelligent man has concluded it is not a sin. And if it is a sin, it is no different than any other and we should not judge.

[Wayne Smith]

Another misunderstanding of Scripture. It does not say the we should not judge, it says we need to be careful when we do judge. In fact the Scripture tells me in Timothy that I have a responsibility to come alongside a brother who is in sin the let him know that he is in sin - this is a responsibility to judge a brother.

The Scripture that most people assume says to not judge in fact assumes judgment - when you do judge … and advises us to be very careful and to examine ourselves and our motives before we act on our judgment.

Yes, it is amazing how people change Scripture to make it say what they want rather than what God said.

[a danl]

Another misunderstanding of Scripture. It does not say the we should not judge, it says we need to be careful when we do judge. In fact the Scripture tells me in Timothy that I have a responsibility to come alongside a brother who is in sin the let him know that he is in sin - this is a responsibility to judge a brother.

The Scripture that most people assume says to not judge in fact assumes judgment - when you do judge … and advises us to be very careful and to examine ourselves and our motives before we act on our judgment.

Yes, it is amazing how people change Scripture to make it say what they want rather than what God said.

wayne, you are totaly correct, you said it very well. a danl

[WinchesterM1]

In my opinion homosexuality is just a temptation just like porn or drugs, acting on anyone of our temptations is when it becomes a sin, I don’t believe you are born that way. My Brother has had a “roommate” for the past 11 years

[Ickisrulz]

In my opinion homosexuality is just a temptation just like porn or drugs, acting on anyone of our temptations is when it becomes a sin, I don’t believe you are born that way. My Brother has had a “roommate” for the past 11 years

There is a biological component to homosexuality. Some people are born "a little off." Some people may be attracted to their same sex, others may have addiction problems and others might be more prone to anger, etc.

There are three components to homosexuality: biological, personal experiences (e.g., childhood abuse) and choice. The choice to act is up to the individual.

[MT Gianni]

Genesis 1:28 Multiply and replenish the Earth. That isn't happening in a same sex situation.
I believe some are born with a pre-desposition to murder, steal, rape, fall easily to addictions, lie, steal and cheat. They are only sins if they act on those feelings. I believe that much of homosexual behavior is recruited. Ie, "you felt an attraction for the same sex, do you must act on it, act this way, and shun all else." Added to this is the current feeling in the world that unless you have any sexual relationship close at hand at all times, you really are not living a full life. We live in a messed up time.
Currently the statistics are that 2.8% of the population is gay. Yet we cannot watch a TV show, movie or read a book that doesn't over state those figures by at least 10%. Too many have their own agenda on this issue.

[1hole]

Virtually all the defenders of a 10% gay humanity are also hard core atheists who say all the universe just fell into place by some kind of accident and humans evolved from a mass of swamp goo. They would have us believe we get most of our tendencies through DNA that evolves in time; that's nonsense on it's face. Consider this: If queers can't help what they do because it's in their DNA, how and why do they still exist?

I mean, it's obvious that if we are all the sum total of inherited DNA and it's obvious they reproduce at a lower rate than others would not that DNA trait would have been slowly lost from the gene pool thousands of years ago? Instead of that damaged DNA strand being lost in time it seems the percentage of victims have run about the same all through history. To me THAT one single fact says no one is made that way! Instead their sexual deviations rise from their minds, not their gonads.

[Thundarstick]

The Bible list all kinds of sexual practices that one who seeks to please God should not engage in, some are very openly obvious when someone is involved in them, others not so much. In my mind the greater evil is when(the, or A) church seeks to normalize forbidden sexual behaviour. Homosexual sin must be seen as a sin by the individual in practice of the sin, just as with any other sinful behavior and normalizing it prevents this. I personally know a man who considers himself homosexual, but doesn't practice sexual acts because he said that God is against them. I'd be willing to bet there are men and women living out there as husband and wife who abstain from sex because they don't believe they are allowed to by God. This issue is very similar to churches disallowing a remarried man to participate in worship service activities, fearing they are condoning an unlawful marriage. Can two men live in the same house as best friends, sharing a life together, asexually, and because they "could be" are shunned, what about a man and woman! Heck, they're considered "common law" after a certain amount of time living under one roof in most states, sex or no sex! Is the act a sin, or the possibilty to sin a sin?

Have churches already "normalized" sins?

According to a coworker, the smaller UM churches are being pressured by their conference to vote to approve of this abomination, and are fearful of retaliation and losing their property if they resist.

[Ickisrulz]

Virtually all the defenders of a 10% gay humanity are also hard core atheists who say all the universe just fell into place by some kind of accident and humans evolved from a mass of swamp goo. They would have us believe we get most of our tendencies through DNA that evolves in time; that's nonsense on it's face. Consider this: If queers can't help what they do because it's in their DNA, how and why do they still exist?

I mean, it's obvious that if we are all the sum total of inherited DNA and it's obvious they reproduce at a lower rate than others would not that DNA trait would have been slowly lost from the gene pool thousands of years ago? Instead of that damaged DNA strand being lost in time it seems the percentage of victims have run about the same all through history. To me THAT one single fact says no one is made that way! Instead their sexual deviations rise from their minds, not their gonads.

Healthy parents can produce babies with birth defects or congenital diseases.

[Wayne Smith]

There is a biological component to homosexuality. Some people are born "a little off." Some people may be attracted to their same sex, others may have addiction problems and others might be more prone to anger, etc.

There are three components to homosexuality: biological, personal experiences (e.g., childhood abuse) and choice. The choice to act is up to the individual.

There are the same three components to many sins, including adultery, obesity, drug/EOTH abuse, etc. We are all biological sinners - driven to it by our biology. It is our responsibility to choose God over biology.

[dverna]

Being born a sinner, does not make sin acceptable. We have the choice to sin, and we all choose to sin, or God would not have sent Jesus.

God may see all sin equally, but man cannot do so. Telling a white lie, is different than stealing, adultery, rape, or murder. Society would collapse if we treated every sin with the same punishment.

Man establishes boundaries. I believe churches need to establish boundaries to fulfill their role and provide moral direction. Either homosexuality is a sin, or it is not. It seems every passage in the Bible on the subject condemns the act. How a church can accept it and allow its pastors to be immoral is a recipe for disaster. What is next....sexual relations with 16 year olds? 14 year olds? ????

I am reminded of the phrase, "What would Jesus do?" I doubt He would select them to spread the word of God. Some will argue He did not select any women either. I think I know why, but that is another subject.

[Ickisrulz]

Being born a sinner, does not make sin acceptable. We have the choice to sin, and we all choose to sin, or God would not have sent Jesus.

God may see all sin equally, but man cannot do so. Telling a white lie, is different than stealing, adultery, rape, or murder. Society would collapse if we treated every sin with the same punishment.

Man establishes boundaries. I believe churches need to establish boundaries to fulfill their role and provide moral direction. Either homosexuality is a sin, or it is not. It seems every passage in the Bible on the subject condemns the act. How a church can accept it and allow its pastors to be immoral is a recipe for disaster. What is next....sexual relations with 16 year olds? 14 year olds? ????

I am reminded of the phrase, "What would Jesus do?" I doubt He would select them to spread the word of God. Some will argue He did not select any women either. I think I know why, but that is another subject.

You may be surprised to learn that the "age of consent" in many states is 16.

[1hole]

There are the same three components to many sins, including adultery, obesity, drug abuse, etc. We are all biological sinners - driven to it by our biology. It is our responsibility to choose God over biology.

Amen. Mostly. To elaborate, I mean, none of us are helplessly "driven" by our biology.

Sure, everyone is born with inherited physical features, motor skills and mental predispositions but we are not robots with no self control of ourselves. No one is ruled by inherited predispositions and it's a specious argument to say otherwise.

Only a Michael Jordan can play basketball as skillfully as he did; that was good. On the other hand, Willy Sutten had a predisposition to rob banks and he was good at it, Jeffery Dahmer had a craving for eating human flesh; Rue Paul loves to dress as a woman, etc., ditto the life of homosexuals such as Shep Smith and Rachael Maddow. But, NO ONE in his right mind should lean back and pontificate; "Oh well, that's the way that they born, they just can't help it so we should respect them for that."

No, we should not say anything like that because none of us are born helpless wimps with no control over how we live. I have one of each (male/female) in my family circle; both are truly "good" people. I love them and treat them kindly but they both know I (and their parents/family) do not condone the lifestyle they have chosen.

[Rizzo]

...
Sure, everyone is born with inherited physical features, motor skills and mental predispositions ......
I get the physical inherited features (color of skin, large framed, small framed, etc.) but you are saying that our brains are what, pre-programmed to some degree that makes us act a certain way?
Aren't we born in innocence with a "clean slate", aside from the Original Sin, that is supposedly branded on our souls?

Now, if you are talking about Karma, which I doubt, then mental predisposition would make sense.

[dverna]

Rizzo,
I do not believe humans are born with "innocence" that will stay with them for very long.

Adam and Eve were born in "innocence" but within a few days broke the single command God ordered them to obey. Every baby will be influence and be exposed to evil as they were. We are not designed to be "good". Although God made us in His image, He did not make us holy. There is an animal aspect that drives us and it is not always good.

[Hickory]

Rizzo,
I do not believe humans are born with "innocence" that will stay with them for very long.

Adam and Eve were born in "innocence" but within a few days broke the single command God ordered them to obey. Every baby will be influence and be exposed to evil as they were. We are not designed to be "good". Although God made us in His image, He did not make us holy. There is an animal aspect that drives us and it is not always good.

Who were the parents of Adam & Eve?
Too much disinformation and grasping at straws in this thread.

[Ickisrulz]

Who were the parents of Adam & Eve?
Too much disinformation and grasping at straws in this thread.

Adam was the son of God (Luke 3:38)

What is the disinformation and straw-grasping you speak of?

[a danl]

Adam was the son of God (Luke 3:38)

What is the disinformation and straw-grasping you speak of?

reading all these quotes it sure make me thankful that GOD is judge

[dtknowles]

We need to separate sins and crimes. We need to separate Religion and Secular Society.

Homosexually is a sin in many religions and a crime in some societies. It is not a crime in most of western civilization. The Methodist Church needs to decide if it is really a true Christian religion or a reformed western religion. Sort of like the split between Reformed Jews and Orthodox Jews.

Tim

[phonejack]

When I’m asked that question I tell them to read 1st Corinthians 6, 9-10

[Thundarstick]

When I’m asked that question I tell them to read 1st Corinthians 6, 9-10

It would probably be good thing for ALL of US to read the whole chapter!

[Wayne Smith]

I get the physical inherited features (color of skin, large framed, small framed, etc.) but you are saying that our brains are what, pre-programmed to some degree that makes us act a certain way?
Aren't we born in innocence with a "clean slate", aside from the Original Sin, that is supposedly branded on our souls?

Now, if you are talking about Karma, which I doubt, then mental predisposition would make sense.

No, there is no such thing as a 'clean slate'. Some are born with the genes for schizophrenia, some are born with the genes for alcoholism, some are born with the genes for good skin and some are born with the genes for ... . For example IQ is largely genetic. Your IQ is approximately halfway between the IQ of your parents. Yeah, I believe that Adam and Eve were probably genetically perfect human beings, but we have been falling apart ever since. To a large extent my genetic heritage provides limits within which I can function. The more we learn about the brain and genetic inheritance the more confusing it is. We (science) are at the very beginning of understanding all of this.

[sharps4590]

All of it seems rather simple to me. There is no right way to do a wrong thing....for all of us. Whether it's believed or not, God reigns supreme and will have the final say.

[Hickory]

All of it seems rather simple to me. There is no right way to do a wrong thing....for all of us. Whether it's believed or not, God reigns supreme and will have the final say.

Hallelujah!!!
Through all the smoke comes a clear statement.

[a danl]

reading the bible which is god's word tells us how to behave in god's holiness so that we can be accepted into his presence thru jesus his son. something to ponder "some things are true whether you believe it or not"

[1hole]

Healthy parents can produce babies with birth defects or congenital diseases.

Really? !! That might explain a lot! :)

[1hole]

reading the bible which is god's word tells us how to behave in god's holiness so that we can be accepted into his presence thru jesus his son. something to ponder "some things are true whether you believe it or not"

Roger that. If something is true it matters not what some may not "believe". And no amount of anyone's "believing" can make something untrue suddenly become true. Meaning believing only has any real value if the belief is correct.

[Wayne Smith]

As a more general statement it is important to realize what the Bible is NOT. It is not a history text, it is not a sociology text, it is not a medical text book, it is not a study in cosmology. You can go on and on about this.

What it is - our owners manual. When you buy a car in the glove compartment is an owner's manual. It tells you all you need to know to operate that car safely. It is not a shop manual nor does it tell you how to polish and refresh the paint. The Bible is our owners manual.

[1hole]

"Owner's Manual"; excellent analogy Wayne.

[Bigslug]

My question would be "WHY is homosexuality viewed as a sin?"

If we consider in in the context of the Bible being written by people at a time when you were lucky to live to 40, your immediate tribe was all you could count on, and you needed the younger people of that tribe to care for you when you were injured or otherwise decrepit, it stands to reason that any behavior leading to not reproducing would be viewed as a negative. For that matter, there are plenty of examples of people seeing an "out" from an infertile partner.

Taking it a bit further, how would use of contraception, masturbation, or non-reproductive but still heterosexual practices rate on the "Sin Scale"? Just like homosexuality, all gratify the biological urges without the possibility of reproduction. If lack of reproduction is the sin, then aren't they all one and the same?

Rolling it all forward a few thousand year to the point where there are now SEVEN BILLION of us and crowding has become a real drain on quality of life, isn't it maybe time to reconsider what sexual practices constitute an offense? At this point, the fertile couple having more than two kids is more likely part of the problem than non-breeders (of any description) who can fix a machine, grow crops, build shelters and roads, or teach a math class as well as any, but aren't creating the burden of additional mouths to feed. Until "Go forth and multiply" means having your kids on Mars, it's a concern. Surely, God has to have some thoughts on creating a life that you know is likely to die young in a famine or war caused by too many people fighting over resources. Breeding to the point that we starve by the millions has to offend him more than 10% of the population choosing to bump the wrong uglies.

And on a lighter note, I can't be the only one who's sat in rush hour traffic looking at the sea of creeping cars around me and thought "Damn! I wish all these people's parents had been gay!";)

[Hickory]

My question would be "WHY is homosexuality viewed as a sin?"

If we consider in in the context of the Bible being written by people at a time when you were lucky to live to 40, your immediate tribe was all you could count on, and you needed the younger people of that tribe to care for you when you were injured or otherwise decrepit, it stands to reason that any behavior leading to not reproducing would be viewed as a negative. For that matter, there are plenty of examples of people seeing an "out" from an infertile partner.

Taking it a bit further, how would use of contraception, masturbation, or non-reproductive but still heterosexual practices rate on the "Sin Scale"? Just like homosexuality, all gratify the biological urges without the possibility of reproduction. If lack of reproduction is the sin, then aren't they all one and the same?

Rolling it all forward a few thousand year to the point where there are now SEVEN BILLION of us and crowding has become a real drain on quality of life, isn't it maybe time to reconsider what sexual practices constitute an offense? At this point, the fertile couple having more than two kids is more likely part of the problem than non-breeders (of any description) who can fix a machine, grow crops, build shelters and roads, or teach a math class as well as any, but aren't creating the burden of additional mouths to feed. Until "Go forth and multiply" means having your kids on Mars, it's a concern. Surely, God has to have some thoughts on creating a life that you know is likely to die young in a famine or war caused by too many people fighting over resources. Breeding to the point that we starve by the millions has to offend him more than 10% of the population choosing to bump the wrong uglies.

And on a lighter note, I can't be the only one who's sat in rush hour traffic looking at the sea of creeping cars around me and thought "Damn! I wish all these people's parents had been gay!";)

Some people just love that warm fuzzy feeling they get when they snuggle up with someone with a hairy face and chest.

[Wayne Smith]

My question would be "WHY is homosexuality viewed as a sin?"

If we consider in in the context of the Bible being written by people at a time when you were lucky to live to 40, your immediate tribe was all you could count on, and you needed the younger people of that tribe to care for you when you were injured or otherwise decrepit, it stands to reason that any behavior leading to not reproducing would be viewed as a negative. For that matter, there are plenty of examples of people seeing an "out" from an infertile partner.

Taking it a bit further, how would use of contraception, masturbation, or non-reproductive but still heterosexual practices rate on the "Sin Scale"? Just like homosexuality, all gratify the biological urges without the possibility of reproduction. If lack of reproduction is the sin, then aren't they all one and the same?

Rolling it all forward a few thousand year to the point where there are now SEVEN BILLION of us and crowding has become a real drain on quality of life, isn't it maybe time to reconsider what sexual practices constitute an offense? At this point, the fertile couple having more than two kids is more likely part of the problem than non-breeders (of any description) who can fix a machine, grow crops, build shelters and roads, or teach a math class as well as any, but aren't creating the burden of additional mouths to feed. Until "Go forth and multiply" means having your kids on Mars, it's a concern. Surely, God has to have some thoughts on creating a life that you know is likely to die young in a famine or war caused by too many people fighting over resources. Breeding to the point that we starve by the millions has to offend him more than 10% of the population choosing to bump the wrong uglies.

And on a lighter note, I can't be the only one who's sat in rush hour traffic looking at the sea of creeping cars around me and thought "Damn! I wish all these people's parents had been gay!";)

Wrong focus and direction. Biblically it is God that matters, not man. It is God's design that matters, and deviations from that is sin. Mankind can and has justified just about every possible sin by seeing it from man's perspective. It's only when we see from God's perspective that we see sin clearly. This is what the Holy Spirit does when He convicts us of our sin - He allows us to see ourselves from God's perspective.

[dtknowles]

Wrong focus and direction. Biblically it is God that matters, not man. It is God's design that matters, and deviations from that is sin. Mankind can and has justified just about every possible sin by seeing it from man's perspective. It's only when we see from God's perspective that we see sin clearly. This is what the Holy Spirit does when He convicts us of our sin - He allows us to see ourselves from God's perspective.

How do you see it from God's perspective. What I think you mean is from the Bible's perspective. Well, maybe God talks to you.

Tim

[Wayne Smith]

What is the vernacular for the Bible? "God's Word" - i.e. the Words of God. Reading and understanding the Bible is listening to God. Yes, the Holy Spirit interprets it and applies it to my life when I am willing to listen to Him.

[dtknowles]

What is the vernacular for the Bible? "God's Word" - i.e. the Words of God. Reading and understanding the Bible is listening to God. Yes, the Holy Spirit interprets it and applies it to my life when I am willing to listen to Him.

Unless, like me you consider the bibles works of historical fiction.

Tim

[1hole]

Unless, like me you consider the bibles works of historical fiction.

Tim

Yeah Tim, we know. That's why nothing you (and all other spiritual iggerants) say about God matters to anyone but yourself. I do pray the Holy Spirit opens your wide shut eyes.

(Ref. your pasted philosophical footnotes, I say weak men can safely make such lofty comments about how strong their ideas are only when they are protected by better men with swords; if I ever get in a knife fight I sure hope it's with someone who thinks like you! I'll bring my long knife; THEN we would see if a flip-lip really is mightier than a sword. ;) )

[dverna]

God has not "spoken" to us since He sent Jesus to us.

We have the Bible as our current frame of reference until He deems it necessary to provide additional direction if He thinks we need it.

In His eyes, many of the acts we rationalize are sins...masturbation being one of them...and I suspect the vast majority of Christians have, and will continue to practice it. It is only one of many rules that God has given man that God knew would not follow and make us sinners.


IMHO, God sets up for failure because He needs us to fail. Christians will argue that we fail because of our free will and that is a large component. But the 613 laws of the bible confirm in my mind that He wants us to fail. Mathew 5:17 - quoting Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

In essence, God established a set of laws and restrictions that were impossible for a normal man to remember, never mind fulfill. He set us up for failure so we would need Jesus to forgive the multitude of sins we all commit.

I have been attending church almost every week for over 2 1/2 years, at four different denominations. None of the sermons have ever discussed the 613 laws and if/how they are applicable to living in Christ. Christ may have said He did not come to abolish them, but the churches seems to "cherry pick" them and ignore the vast majority of them.

As to how this applies to homosexuality, I tend to believe it remains a sin. The New Testament does not mention every 613 law but it is clear that homosexuality was still considered a sin after Jesus came to us. I admit I may be rationalizing this as I find the practice abhorrent and abnormal, and I am using scripture to justify my opinion.

[Ickisrulz]

In His eyes, many of the acts we rationalize are sins...masturbation being one of them...and I suspect the vast majority of Christians have, and will continue to practice it. It is only one of many rules that God has given man that God knew would not follow and make us sinners.

The Bible is completely silent on the topic of masturbation. God does not say, "Thou shalt not masturbate."

Many Christians will tell you it is a sin. It seems to some like it should be, but it is not. If it were, I guarantee it would have been addressed. It is a universal (and necessary) human behavior and countless people suffer needlessly because of the guilt they have been talked in to.

As Christians we must educate our consciences to avoid unnecessary feelings of shame. I eat lots of meat sacrificed to demons!

[dtknowles]

Yeah Tim, we know. That's why nothing you (and all other spiritual iggerants) say about God matters to anyone but yourself. I do pray the Holy Spirit opens your wide shut eyes.

(Ref. your pasted philosophical footnotes, I say weak men can safely make such lofty comments about how strong their ideas are only when they are protected by better men with swords; if I ever get in a knife fight I sure hope it's with someone who thinks like you! I'll bring my long knife; THEN we would see if a flip-lip really is mightier than a sword. ;) )

It is clear to see my "flip-lip" is mightier than your "long knife" I touche' you but your knife is has yet to make contact. If you deserved my defense I could bring more than a long knife to defend you. My pasted philosophical footnotes are three well known quotes that seem appropriate for a place where we mostly share words.

Oh, and the Bible. It is not a knife but books of words. Are the Apostles better known for their words or their swordsmanship?

If we were to contest, I would give you the advantage of your long knife against my quarterstaff. But seriously, do you imagine yourself using your long knife as a weapon? I am a fit 5" 10" and 180 pounds, I can be a valuable friend if you are in a tight spot.

You can pray to the Holy Spirit for me but you should listen as the Holy Spirit might tell you that the Spirit and I have settled with each other and you should pray for others. God knows my heart and as you know the Spirit, Christ and the Father are but one, the one and only God. The God who knows my heart. Pray for yourself so that you might have the scales drop from your eyes as you seem to be blind.

Tim

[JimB..]

@dverna, rethink Matthew 5:17, you are focused on the first part “I have not come to abolish them” but what does the second part “but to fulfill them” mean and how does it affect us? Consider that he was speaking to Jews that were fully aware of the law.

I kinda envy the Jews of old, it is far easier I think to follow 613 explicit rules than to live up to a simple broad concept like Mark 12:31 “love your neighbor as yourself.”

[1hole]

Oh, and the Bible. It is not a knife but books of words. Are the Apostles better known for their words or their swordsmanship?
Tim

Ah, but the Bible is much more than simple "words". The Bible is the word of God and it's much more powerful than sprayed words from any uppity man. The Bible tells us "The Word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword, it penetrates to separate soul and spirit, bone and marrow". But you deny the truth of the Bible, and then use it, incorrectly and out of context; I assume to support your many blasphemies in opposition to it! So, nah, your hopefully sharp tongue carries little strength.

Have fun wagging that lip while you still can but, no matter how hard you try, I don't believe you're doing any damage to the living Word of God (Jesus), the Bible or Christians.
--------------------------------------------------------
Now, ref. your veiled threat about how big and tuff you are, know that I used to be bigger and tuffer. But let me warn you, don't get too beligerent because you won't last. Given enough time, you too can be 80 with a damaged back and shoulders and a 12% functioning heart and your termite eaten staff still won't overpower the sharp word's of God. And pray that better men (like my three Christian grandsons now in uniform) continue to stand between your mighty lip and evil others! ;) :)

[dtknowles]

Ah, but the Bible is much more than simple "words". The Bible is the word of God and it's much more powerful than sprayed words from any uppity man. The Bible tells us "The Word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword, it penetrates to separate soul and spirit, bone and marrow". But you deny the truth of the Bible, and then use it, incorrectly and out of context; I assume to support your many blasphemies in opposition to it! So, nah, your hopefully sharp tongue carries little strength.

Have fun wagging that lip while you still can but, no matter how hard you try, I don't believe you're doing any damage to the living Word of God (Jesus), the Bible or Christians.
--------------------------------------------------------
Now, ref. your veiled threat about how big and tuff you are, know that I used to be bigger and tuffer. But let me warn you, don't get too beligerent because you won't last. Given enough time, you too can be 80 with a damaged back and shoulders and a 12% functioning heart and your termite eaten staff still won't overpower the sharp word's of God. And pray that better men (like my three Christian grandsons now in uniform) continue to stand between your mighty lip and evil others! ;) :)

I am 62 and I don't need your grandsons to defend me in uniform or not. My wife's grandfather is 92 with a fine back and shoulders and heart.

I don't believe that I am doing any damage to the living Word of God (Jesus), the Bible or Christians except waking a few of them up so the care about doing more good and worrying less about the interpretations of a 2000 year old book and how to use it to persecute peoples of other beliefs and faiths.

Tim

[1hole]

Ah Tim. You greatly image your effect here.

Most of us here seem to be Christians and you, as a committed non-believer don't have a clue what motivates us. Therefore your professions of encouraging us do more "good" things and to close our mouths when we see others driving towards an eternal spiritual doom that can easily be avoided. That includes YOU and that's why I, and others I'm sure, are praying for your spiritual eyes to be opened.

Oh, about your desire to direct selfish Christians to do more good works, I read statistics saying we contribute far more to charities than non believers. I know we do far more volunteer services for others than "good" people like yourself.

To be fair, non believers are said to do far more volunteer work for such socially important groups as Sierra Club; restrictive town planning and HOA boards; manning local Democrat headquarters; attending pink hat protests for unrestrained abortions; ANTIFAS; Occupy; various "Save the Polar Bears and Minnows"; etc. And, as a group, we're told that non believers do contribute much more than Christians for politicians and a political party (DNC).

Seems Christians mostly stick to supporting and manning simple little things like Salvation Army, Am. Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, Volunteer Fire and Rescue departments, Girl's and Boy's Clubs, Meals on Wheels, etc., so you wouldn't hear much about that. And you would no doubt be surprised at how much churches quitely do - a lot - for those in need but you don't want to hear about that.

Moving on, so you're only 60 and still doing great. Well, unhappily, you're on the ragged edge of beginning to learn things like how old injuries come back to haunt all of us.

However, I truly hope that, as a normal liberal humanist, your 60 years been so soft and protected that you have no scars and never sustained any real physical injuries in service to God or the nation - or to others in need of course. If so, that's okay, after all, it was to protect and help keep unscarred people safe that we who served and exposed ourselves -
prayed - for.

Finally, I know where your footnotes came from and I also know why you post them. You can keep your deadly pen at port arms for now, better others are still shielding you from the realities of an evil world.

[snowwolfe]

Obviously gay people have been around since the beginning otherwise they would not be mentioned in the bible. I see no reason to think less of them for the way they are born. If you believe in God know that God created them as he did all people.

[1hole]

Wolfe you think clearly ... but not far enough ahead.

Yes, God made all men ... but he didn't mandate that men live in rebelious opposition to the "Maker's Instruction Manual" or as slaves to our baser impulses. I sin, you sin, we all sin but that's no justification for any of us to waller in the depths of sin and demand others to pat us on the head in loving approval.

It appears homos have been around since the beginning of time but, so what, it's a sin, a bad practice; how long does it take for a bad practice to become good? I mean, our Maker said it's not a good way to live and he didn't say that to prevent anyone from having fun. Again, we are all sinners by nature but no one is powerless over himself and we don't have to live sinfully.

Homosexuals are motivated by several factors, none of which change the fact that it's not a healthy way to live. Fact is, it's a personal choice; it's certainly not a DNA mandate as they have claimed. Their choice is a sin against humanity, same as stealing, raging envy, lying about others and murder are sins against humanity. Those people who have a mental propensity to follow that nasty path are no more helpless about what they do than others who have a natural propensity to steal, abuse children, rape women and commit murder.

Christians do not want to hang or burn homos in the public square.

They've never been badly mistreated, not 50 or 100 years ago and they aren't now. We would like for them to see the error of their ways and get straight for their own good but, failing that, we don't want pushy homos publically striving to jam their sinful life style down our throats or in our school classrooms; which they do. And, yeah, some of us get a bit angry about that; is it a sin to be angry at deliberate sin?

[snowwolfe]

Being gay is rarely a choice made easily. My opinion is the vast majority are born into it. Most of us have known people who exhibited the tendency to be gay at at a very early age. Well before they understood anything concerning sex. There are very few that become gay due to their upbringing.
We are wired to like the opposite sex but some people are born with crossed wires thru no fault of their own.

[dtknowles]

Wolfe you think clearly ... but not far enough ahead.

Yes, God made all men ... but he didn't mandate that men live in rebelious opposition to the "Maker's Instruction Manual" or as slaves to our baser impulses. I sin, you sin, we all sin but that's no justification for any of us to waller in the depths of sin and demand others to pat us on the head in loving approval.

It appears homos have been around since the beginning of time but, so what, it's a sin, a bad practice; how long does it take for a bad practice to become good? I mean, our Maker said it's not a good way to live and he didn't say that to prevent anyone from having fun. Again, we are all sinners by nature but no one is powerless over himself and we don't have to live sinfully.

Homosexuals are motivated by several factors, none of which change the fact that it's not a healthy way to live. Fact is, it's a personal choice; it's certainly not a DNA mandate as they have claimed. Their choice is a sin against humanity, same as stealing, raging envy, lying about others and murder are sins against humanity. Those people who have a mental propensity to follow that nasty path are no more helpless about what they do than others who have a natural propensity to steal, abuse children, rape women and commit murder.

Christians do not want to hang or burn homos in the public square.

They've never been badly mistreated, not 50 or 100 years ago and they aren't now. We would like for them to see the error of their ways and get straight for their own good but, failing that, we don't want pushy homos publically striving to jam their sinful life style down our throats or in our school classrooms; which they do. And, yeah, some of us get a bit angry about that; is it a sin to be angry at deliberate sin?

"They've never been badly mistreated, not 50 or 100 years ago and they aren't now." I think you might be a little bit out of touch with reality.

What Christians or Islamists consider a sin does not make it actually a sin. Which of the 10 commandments does homosexuality violate. Who is actually hurt by homosexuality and what is the harm?

Tim

[Wayne Smith]

Every sin, and all sin, is sin against God. It is rebellion against His will. Sorry, that doesn't fit your world view - you don't believe in Him.

[Ickisrulz]

"They've never been badly mistreated, not 50 or 100 years ago and they aren't now." I think you might be a little bit out of touch with reality.

What Christians or Islamists consider a sin does not make it actually a sin. Which of the 10 commandments does homosexuality violate. Who is actually hurt by homosexuality and what is the harm?

Tim

It is interesting that you are appealing to the Ten Commandments as the end all list of what is and isn't a sin. You recently dismissed half of these commandments in one of your previous posts (I think it was the post where you told us you rarely sin--post #34 in this thread).

The Bible's prescription for sexual activity limits it to the confines of a marriage between a man and woman. Any activity outside of this boundary is "sexual immorality." There are potential adverse consequences of sexual immorality.

Heterosexual fornication/adultery can result in unwanted pregnancy, spread of disease, psychological harm, predatory activities and damage to family integrity.

Homosexual activity can result in all of the preceding issues with the exception of pregnancy. The likelihood of spreading disease is increased tremendously due to the mechanics involved and the fact that male homosexuals are more prone to promiscuity than heterosexual men. There also seems to be more mental health problems among gay people that are not associated with how society views them. The long-term, monogamous gay relationship is rare.

It is difficult to find unbiased data on homosexual lifestyles today. As a society we have accepted the practice and now are reluctant (or forbidden) to criticize it. But the harmful aspects are still there and are not going away.

[dverna]

Another good post Ickisrulz!!!

What bothers me about the issue is that society is accepting homosexuality as "normal" when clearly it is not. It is not our place to judge them as people but we can judge the lifestyle....and to me it is inappropriate.

People are born flawed in other ways...psychotic, autistic, bipolar, mentally handicapped, physically handicapped, etc etc...it does not make them normal. People born this way cannot will themselves out of their condition. A homosexual has a choice...I do not buy into the argument they are born this way and have no choice. If they choose to find sexual fulfillment in a sinful relationship, they are not Christians IMHO. They are certainly not fit for leadership roles in a Christian church or to serve as role models. They are free to live unmolested as human beings as they choose. They should not be barred from attending church as we are all sinners.

But I can be very judgmental. I would not attend a church where the pastor was committing adultery, watching pornography, stealing from others, etc either. BTW, I know that every sin, great or small, it a sin in God's eyes but man (at least this one) is not wired that way.

[lightload]

Society is undergoing cultural evolution with the result that churches are becoming more and more secularized. Churches and schools promote this change. State, local, and federal government continue to endorse the new ethics on gender issues. It's here to stay and will get worse. Criticize it and lose your government job.

[1hole]

Men think humanity varies vastly in personalities and tastes. That's true but only within a narrow range, we are all much more alike than we are different. We all want "love", we all want acceptance by the people we care about, especially our family and peers, and especially so when we're young. For a variety of reasons there is a certain percentage of people who are denied what we all seek and need. A certain percentage of them rebel and shake their fists in the face of those who disappoint them. I believe homos come from that group of hurts. Many are angry, many have been emotionally beaten down, but I know they aren't "born that way". Few are stupid or weak, none are helpless in how they live. No matter what some stupid college professor says, no one is compelled to live that way, it's just the way they have found emotional affirmation - or attention.

With help from family, friends and the Holy Spirit, homos can grow out of that emotional trap but first they must come to the realization that the way they live is harmful, both to them and their partners, and want out. Get that one folks, they have to WANT OUT! Most do not truly want to stop so they don't. (It's much like quitting cigarettes, addicted people simply can't stop as long as they'd rather smoke!)

Our touchy-feely efforts to make others comfortable in their sinful lifestyles, be it sex or smoking or prostitution or drugs, etc., is giving them deadly assistance to continue on a path to hell. That lofty but shallow minded effort may make us feel good about ourselves but it's not love for them.

[Elkins45]

Who would willing choose a homosexual lifestyle, even today if they weren’t biologically driven to do so? It wasn’t all that long ago that admitting to be a homosexual could cost you your job, a security clearance and indeed in some places your very life. Who would flippantly ‘choose’ such a thing given all the negative consequences? And yet throughout history many people have.

Asserting that being gay is simply a behavioral choice requires ignoring a lot of historical data.

[a danl]

Jesus said "you shall love the lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. this is the great and first commandment. and a second is like it. you shall love your neighbor as yourself. on these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets. "matthew chapter 22 verses 37-40. god is the one who is hurt because he is the judge who will cast them into outer darkness. he wants all men to be saved but because of their darkened mind all cannot be saved. broad is the path to destruction and narrow is the pathway to life. the mind of man cannot comprehend the mind of god, so are we a believer of how god said we should live and worship or are we that person who does not believe god and will fall into judgement?

[Ickisrulz]

Who would willing choose a homosexual lifestyle, even today if they weren’t biologically driven to do so? It wasn’t all that long ago that admitting to be a homosexual could cost you your job, a security clearance and indeed in some places your very life. Who would flippantly ‘choose’ such a thing given all the negative consequences? And yet throughout history many people have.

Asserting that being gay is simply a behavioral choice requires ignoring a lot of historical data.

While I agree with the idea that biology is a major component in homosexuality (see my previous posts in this thread), I have to point out this is not always the case. Humans are incredibly complex. Some people are pressured into homosexual behavior, some "experiment" and some choose it when it becomes the only option (e.g., prison sex).

[Blackwater]

Well, this has developed into a rather interesting discussion, with many worthwhile comments, insights and observations that have been typical of all the views on this subject. However, I have my own beliefs, rightly or wrongly, about homosexuality. I can accept the possibility that some people are genetically pre-disposed toward homosexuality. But God didn't put us here to be "perfect." Each of us is born with certain personality pre-dispositions that bend us toward sins of all types and degrees. So whether or not anyone is born with a pre-disposition toward homosexuality seems rather moot and irrelevant.

God gave us the finest set of instructions and advice that we could possibly ever have. But with our near universal pre-disposition towards following our impulses, temptations and appetites, we typically forsake those directions and "figure it out" using our own feeble "thinking" processes, which all too often, means twisting the Bible's directions to fit our wills, rather than visa versa. It's just what we habitually do, and I doubt there'll be any really serious disagreement with that. The hard part is discerning when we're doing that, and correcting our approach to fit more appropriately our perspective when we consider an issue of sin and other matters so plentiful in the Bible. That's the problem. But what's the "fix" for that?

It can only lie in our willingness to REALLY seek the TRUE meaning of the words of the Bible, and that's not something that many of us do naturally. We typically have to catch ourselves, and then slow down and re-fix our eyes on what's REAL, and not what we WANT to think, and almost always we have to change our perspective from one emphasizing our own wills and opinions and thoughts, to one that is truly directed at discerning God's will rather than our own. And sports fans, that isn't easy and doesn't come "naturally" to us! But it IS doable, if we'll just commit to it.

I have found, after much consideration, that the two most truly relevant and crucial things any professing Christian can do, is to first trust, and also obey. If we do that, understanding will follow - maybe not on the schedule we want, but if we're diligent and honest and humble enough to receive it, it WILL come.

It's my belief that homosexuals use all manner of excuses and "explanations" to JUSTIFY their behavior, deny that it's detrimental or a sin, and they are VERY actively trying to promote these ideas in the PC culture. But PC culture is pretty much totally anti-Christian, and seems primarily directed at overcoming anything righteous or traditional. It simply seems to seek to supplant traditional values and views with those of the more "modern" secular progressive school of thought. For myself, I have rejected anything PC and stick with the "old ways." They're proven for millenea, and PC is not.

Homosexuality is just one of the things that "modern" PC advocates and attempts to promote. If it's true that you can tell a lot about a person or idea by the "friends" it hangs around, then advocacy of homosexuality seems to me to be just another sin that PC culture wants to spread in our nation - and it's doing a pretty darn good job of it. We Christians, in response, seem to tend to tire of the debate, and leave the field to those who will fight to the death to promote their wanton ways and falsehoods.

But how does a Christian treat sinners of any type, such as homosexuals, for instance? We are, I believe, supposed to love them too, no matter how difficult that is (some of us are so disgusted by what they do that it is particularly difficult for us), for God loves us ALL, irrespective of our status with respect to Him at a given moment in time. And I believe that's how we ought to deal with homosexuals. If we can't bring ourselves to be confident enough to do that, then we ought to just leave them be, and go about something more constructive and pleasing to God, like doing something good for someone we feel needs the help. Let God do the judging of the people. But when we HAVE to make a discerning evaluation of things like homosexuality, let us do it the way Christ would deal with it. He stands at the doorway of their hearts until their last breaths. He abandons no one. And He loves us all, but all must face the Judgment when that last breath is gone, and we pass to the next world.

I believe the PRACTICE of homosexuality is a sin and an abomination. But I'm not Christ, and it's really not up to me to Judge those who practice it. My meager earthly understanding is clearly insufficient to do that sort of thing, so ..... I just leave that up to Christ. I have no problem discussing my beliefs about homosexuality with a homosexual, and it doesn't shock or deter me from engaging one in conversation. The most surprising thing about homosexuality is how so many are never recognized as such even by their neighbors and close friends. I know a fork lift driver couple who are admittedly homosexual, but even their close neighbors have no clue about that.

What needs to be addressed by the church and those who are concerned about the future of the country, is that segment of the deviant community who actively promote it and oftentimes, very disgustingly and mockingly so. They may have rights, but so do the "decent" people who are disgusted by such activities and people.

That's my view, and I recommend it to nobody else. I just submit it for comment and observation. It's hard to discern God's true will, but we're all obligated to at least try. This is the best I've been able to come up with, at least for now. Frankly, I haven't dug into the Word to investigate the matter very deeply. But I do at least try to pay attention to those who have, and I have found nothing to negate my views, thus far. FWIW?

[Elkins45]

Sins enumerated within the 10 Commandments are not the only sins extant.

In answer to your question, a couple of examples of where homosexuality violates His law are found in the following passages;

Leviticus 20:13— If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 18:22, 24, 29— Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Also look to Romans for more if you are truly interested.

Those committing the sins are hurt as they have fallen from God's way.

So is a Christian violating the tenets of their faith if they don’t put homosexuals to death as the Bible clearly commands? When we are all called to Judgement will we be measured based partly on how many homosexuals we put to death?

[Ickisrulz]

So is a Christian violating the tenets of their faith if they don’t put homosexuals to death as the Bible clearly commands? When we are all called to Judgement will we be measured based partly on how many homosexuals we put to death?

IF YOU ARE REALLY ASKING (this is from another thread):

The Old Testament was for Israel as a contracted way to live. The Law contained components of ceremony (clean vs unclean, dietary rules, etc.), sacrifices and morality. It also contains the history of God's interaction with man in general and Israel specifically.

With the coming of Jesus, the ceremony and sacrifices no longer apply to God's people: the Church. Additionally, the Law no longer applies as a way to live in order to please God. We please God with our faith in Christ which leads to a life no longer characterized by sin. The history of God and man is valuable in showing God's loving character.

This leaves the moral commands of the Law. What does the Church do with them? God is still opposed to the immoral acts he prohibited in the Old Testament. God's people are still not to fornicate, murder, steal, hit their parents, practice homosexuality, etc. The big items are re-stated in the New Testament. In fact, all but one of the 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament (keeping the Sabbath holy is not). Most importantly, Jesus summed up the moral components of the Law: "Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself." God will always expect this from his people and to not do so is sin.

While the moral component of the Law has not changed, God's people no longer seek to be justified by following the Law. It is important to note that the Church is not charged with enforcing moral requirements in society as Israel was. What I mean is the Church does not stone adulterers or homosexuals.

[dtknowles]

Every sin, and all sin, is sin against God. It is rebellion against His will. Sorry, that doesn't fit your world view - you don't believe in Him.

I do believe in God. There is but one God, the creator of the Universe. I believe that sin is that which hurts others or God's creation. I was asking what makes homosexuality a sin. The answer that this or that from the bible says so, does not cut it with me. The Bibles are works of Historical Fiction.

Tim

[dtknowles]

It is interesting that you are appealing to the Ten Commandments as the end all list of what is and isn't a sin. You recently dismissed half of these commandments in one of your previous posts (I think it was the post where you told us you rarely sin--post #34 in this thread).

The Bible's prescription for sexual activity limits it to the confines of a marriage between a man and woman. Any activity outside of this boundary is "sexual immorality." There are potential adverse consequences of sexual immorality.

Heterosexual fornication/adultery can result in unwanted pregnancy, spread of disease, psychological harm, predatory activities and damage to family integrity.

Homosexual activity can result in all of the preceding issues with the exception of pregnancy. The likelihood of spreading disease is increased tremendously due to the mechanics involved and the fact that male homosexuals are more prone to promiscuity than heterosexual men. There also seems to be more mental health problems among gay people that are not associated with how society views them. The long-term, monogamous gay relationship is rare.

It is difficult to find unbiased data on homosexual lifestyles today. As a society we have accepted the practice and now are reluctant (or forbidden) to criticize it. But the harmful aspects are still there and are not going away.

I was wrongly being flip about the 10 commandments. Some of what you said about sex outside of marriage is still true but like prohibitions against eating pork. Times and science have change some of that. Homosexually is not a strictly male thing either. Exactly what kind of problems can result from lesbian sex? Again, a lot of what you said is correct. I think the bigger problem is infidelity and promiscuity than homosexuality. So maybe the sin is infidelity and promiscuity not homosexuality.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Men think humanity varies vastly in personalities and tastes. That's true but only within a narrow range, we are all much more alike than we are different. We all want "love", we all want acceptance by the people we care about, especially our family and peers, and especially so when we're young. For a variety of reasons there is a certain percentage of people who are denied what we all seek and need. A certain percentage of them rebel and shake their fists in the face of those who disappoint them. I believe homos come from that group of hurts. Many are angry, many have been emotionally beaten down, but I know they aren't "born that way". Few are stupid or weak, none are helpless in how they live. No matter what some stupid college professor says, no one is compelled to live that way, it's just the way they have found emotional affirmation - or attention.

With help from family, friends and the Holy Spirit, homos can grow out of that emotional trap but first they must come to the realization that the way they live is harmful, both to them and their partners, and want out. Get that one folks, they have to WANT OUT! Most do not truly want to stop so they don't. (It's much like quitting cigarettes, addicted people simply can't stop as long as they'd rather smoke!)

Our touchy-feely efforts to make others comfortable in their sinful lifestyles, be it sex or smoking or prostitution or drugs, etc., is giving them deadly assistance to continue on a path to hell. That lofty but shallow minded effort may make us feel good about ourselves but it's not love for them.

An how do you know that none of them are born that way. More people than you imagine are born with incomplete or not properly differentiate genitals. How do you know who is born with what predispositions.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Sins enumerated within the 10 Commandments are not the only sins extant.

In answer to your question, a couple of examples of where homosexuality violates His law are found in the following passages;

Leviticus 20:13— If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 18:22, 24, 29— Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Also look to Romans for more if you are truly interested.

Those committing the sins are hurt as they have fallen from God's way.

I was wrong the way I mentioned the 10 commandments. I also don't consider the bible as for all time. The bible also says not to eat pork.

The bible has wisdom but it also has foolishness.

I agree that those who sin are hurting themselves and others or more correctly if you are hurting yourself or others you have sinned. Doing something the bible says you should not do is not a sin if no one is hurt. Who am I hurting if I eat pork.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Just by way of background. My wife and I don't watch as much TV anymore and a lot of that is because of how loaded it is with homosexuality. I find the over inclusion of homosexual references, actors and actresses off putting. I am sure homosexuals find me somewhat a homophobe. I don't like it but I don't see it as a sin.

Tim

[snowwolfe]

The amount of energy some of you expend disliking homosexuality is mind blowing. Surely you can find other things to use your energy on such as helping people who need help. Instead of always hating on people who don’t fit into your perfect lives.

[a danl]

actually it's quite simple, if you're a true christian one has to like what god likes and hate what god hates

[Ickisrulz]

I was wrongly being flip about the 10 commandments. Some of what you said about sex outside of marriage is still true but like prohibitions against eating pork. Times and science have change some of that. Homosexually is not a strictly male thing either. Exactly what kind of problems can result from lesbian sex? Again, a lot of what you said is correct. I think the bigger problem is infidelity and promiscuity than homosexuality. So maybe the sin is infidelity and promiscuity not homosexuality.

Tim

Eating pork and the difference between the Old and New Testament is explained in post #95.

Lesbian sex presents many of the same problems that male homosexual activity presents, including disease transmission. I don't believe studies show that gay women are as promiscuous as gay men. I find it interesting that there is quite a bit of abuse in lesbian relationships. I wouldn't have thought it so (being women and all). It is not a healthy way to live.

[Thundarstick]

I'm heterosexual, I'm a Christian, and I believe homosexuality is a sinful act. Having said that, you couldn't hold a gun on me and make me attracted to another man, I truly believe there are men and women that you also couldn't hold a gun on and make them sexually attracted to the opposite sex. So that leaves me in a quandary on many Biblical edicts. Is it the ACT that's a sin? I've yet to get an answer as to whether people of the same sex can cohabitate as partners, yet not commit the acts of sin, and be rote with God? Put the shoe on the other foot, can a man and woman cohabitate in a celibate life, where the sex act would be sin? There are gay and straight people who are obsessed with performing sexual acts with as many others as possible, they both are sin and disgusting, gay or straight! If I have sex with my wife and her sister, that's obviously a sin, yet I live with both, in the same house, sleep with my wife, no sin. I'm sure no one would forbid me taking my frail sister in law into my home, eventhough I could be accused of living in sin! So you can see where some of this goes when we judge others life, if there not putting it out in public.

Mat 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Rom 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

When we get into judging others sins it may be wise to tread lightly.

[Wayne Smith]

And we need to be aware of sin, in our lives and in our brother's life. This is our responsibility before God. I have long stated the gluttony and gossip are the two sanctified sins in the American Church. They are all the same before God. We all stand condemned - for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God - and that is why I need Christ! I am a hopeless failure before Him, only Christ's sacrifice protects me.

[Rizzo]

... Many are angry, many have been emotionally beaten down, but I know they aren't "born that way".

......Our touchy-feely efforts to make others comfortable in their sinful lifestyles, be it sex or smoking or prostitution or drugs, etc., is giving them deadly assistance to continue on a path to hell.

Ridiculous.
You do not KNOW that at all and if they are going to HELL.
Just your opinion.

[1hole]

Ridiculous.
You do not KNOW that at all and if they are going to HELL.
Just your opinion.

Oh, really? Do you mean you know so much that I (as a Christian) can't possibly know some spiritual things you don't know? That attitude and position seems counter to your self presumed attitude of intellectual superiority.

You seem to be offended by my statement that those who live homosexual lifestyles (i.e., deliberate sin and defiance of God) are headed to hell but your offense seems to suggest you think they will be in God's heaven too; that's odd.

If I'm right in my presumption of your basic position, you make yourself an intellectual paradox. Fact; if I am right, homosexuals will indeed go to hell and it doesn't matter what you think about it. On the other hand, if I am wrong, we all just die and no one goes anywhere and neither of our belief systems matter at all. With that said, and if you are indeed right, you have no justification for being offended in your "opinion" of my supposed meaningless (Biblical) prediction of who goes to hell - and why. Nez pas? :)


* Moving on, many who toss around accusations of Christians
"judging" other people can't seem to recognise the difference in our warning of wrong is not, ip so facto, "judging"; that's silly. Fact is, we know what scripture says. We didn't write scripture and we won't enforce its rules. Fact is, God himself won't make the decision of heaven or hell, everyone who rejects God automatically does that for himself.

* Note: Contrary to popular belief, St. John plainly tells us there is no coming "judgement day" to determine anyone's heaven or hell.
Our destination is determined by each of us and it takes effect at our physical death. At that moment it's pass/fail, all in or all out. There's no purgatory halfway house for any kind of catch-up pain and no one is weighed on a "good vs. bad" sliding scale. (See John 3:17-18)[/B][/I]

[Rizzo]

Oh, really? Do you mean you know so much that I (as a Christian) can't possibly know some spiritual things you don't know? That attitude and position seems counter to your self presumed attitude of intellectual superiority.

Oh, so these spiritual things that you know tells you that homosexuals are not born that way?
Uh-huh, uh-huh.

You seem to be offended by my statement that those who live homosexual lifestyles (i.e., deliberate sin and defiance of God) are headed to hell but your offense seems to suggest you think they will be in God's heaven too; that's odd.


Offended? No.
You tend to overstate things with a bit of exaggeration included.
Just find your statements about gays not being born that way and they are going to hell to be......well, like I said, ridiculous.
You seem to be able to know God's plan for gays it appears.
You are pre-judging them.
You do not know what God's judgement on them is going to be.
It's just your opinion.
That's the issue I am talking about.

If I'm right in my presumption of your basic position, you make yourself an intellectual paradox. Fact; if I am right, homosexuals will indeed go to hell and it doesn't matter what you think about it. On the other hand, if I am wrong, we all just die and no one goes anywhere and neither of our belief systems matter at all. With that said, and if you are indeed right, you have no justification for being offended in your "opinion" of my supposed meaningless (Biblical) prediction of who goes to hell - and why. Nez pas? :)

Wow.
Gettin' a little edgy there 1Hole.
A little thin on taking criticisms.


* Moving on, many who toss around accusations of Christians
"judging" other people can't seem to recognise the difference in our warning of wrong is not, ip so facto, "judging"; that's silly. Fact is, we know what scripture says. We didn't write scripture and we won't enforce its rules. Fact is, God himself won't make the decision of heaven or hell, everyone who rejects God automatically does that for himself.

* Note: Contrary to popular belief, St. John plainly tells us there is no coming "judgement day" to determine anyone's heaven or hell.
Our destination is determined by each of us and it takes effect at our physical death. At that moment it's pass/fail, all in or all out. There's no purgatory halfway house for any kind of catch-up pain and no one is weighed on a "good vs. bad" sliding scale. (See John 3:17-18)[/B][/I]

Our destination after death is determined by each of us?
Well, yes, to a degree in that we are accountable for our earthly actions, but God is the one that makes that determination where we go.
Again, you do not know that and it is just your opinion.

[1hole]

Our destination after death is determined by each of us? YES
Well, yes, to a degree in that we are accountable for our earthly actions, but God is the one that makes that determination where we go. God says differently.
Again, you do not know that and it is just your opinion. Well, it's actually quite a bit deeper than that.


I know what the Bible says about heaven and hell and how to get there. You clearly don't but you can learn it for yourself as I did, starting with the scripture I listed (John 3:17-18). (Then read the book of Romans, it's the single most focused explanation of our spiritual condition and solutions in the Bible)

Heaven and hell exist. I can't "prove it" to you but they are not my opinion. Both are made by God (the God of the Bible, not Allah or Chas. Russel or Joseph Smith or Giahia, etc.) so both are HIS property and HE gets to make the rules; not you, not me, not the Pope. God has given us his rules and He has made it super simple for us to be admitted into heaven. He says we must put our faith in Jesus as savior; there simply isn't any other requirement for passage to heaven.

But, His one rule is John 3:16. To get there we HAVE to trust the Lord (more than simply believe in Him) and not just make a false claim to fool Him; we can't do that!

Seems most people think men have to live up to a strict set of performance rules; that's not so. A stumbling new Christian IS a "new creature in Christ", not perfect even in his own eyes, but no Christian can possibly live a deliberately sinful life style without cringing inside.

No Christian is perfect but - and this is the key - we ARE made spiritually perfect in God's eyes by accepting the gift of salvation Jesus fully paid for and freely offers us. Total trust in and clinging to Jesus is the ONLY way any of us will ever see God's heaven.

I KNOW all that because it's clearly written in His Book and I've read it, cover to cover, several times. That single Big Black Book is the way God tells men how to live forever with him, there is no other source of wisdom. No matter how hard men try to deserve or earn salvation - or how hard they try to "think" of an other way - men just don't get to make rules to control God! Those men who refuse to live His way have only one eternal alternative and it's chosen by default. That final choice is laid before each man, it's all up to us; it's in The Book.

(Most everyone knows John 3:16 but it seems very few know John 3:17-18. Read it and think about THAT opinion! Then we can talk more.)

[Rizzo]

[/COLOR]

I know what the Bible says about heaven and hell and how to get there. You clearly don't but you can learn it for yourself as I did, starting with the scripture I listed (John 3:17-18). (Then read the book of Romans, it's the single most focused explanation of our spiritual condition and solutions in the Bible)

Heaven and hell exist. I can't "prove it" to you but they are not my opinion. Both are made by God (the God of the Bible, not Allah or Chas. Russel or Joseph Smith or Giahia, etc.) so both are HIS property and HE gets to make the rules; not you, not me, not the Pope. God has given us his rules and He has made it super simple for us to be admitted into heaven. He says we must put our faith in Jesus as savior; there simply isn't any other requirement for passage to heaven.

But, His one rule is John 3:16. To get there we HAVE to trust the Lord (more than simply believe in Him) and not just make a false claim to fool Him; we can't do that!

Seems most people think men have to live up to a strict set of performance rules; that's not so. A stumbling new Christian IS a "new creature in Christ", not perfect even in his own eyes, but no Christian can possibly live a deliberately sinful life style without cringing inside.

No Christian is perfect but - and this is the key - we ARE made spiritually perfect in God's eyes by accepting the gift of salvation Jesus fully paid for and freely offers us. Total trust in and clinging to Jesus is the ONLY way any of us will ever see God's heaven.

I KNOW all that because it's clearly written in His Book and I've read it, cover to cover, several times. That single Big Black Book is the way God tells men how to live forever with him, there is no other source of wisdom. No matter how hard men try to deserve or earn salvation - or how hard they try to "think" of an other way - men just don't get to make rules to control God! Those men who refuse to live His way have only one eternal alternative and it's chosen by default. That final choice is laid before each man, it's all up to us; it's in The Book.

(Most everyone knows John 3:16 but it seems very few know John 3:17-18. Read it and think about THAT opinion! Then we can talk more.)


To know: To perceive directly. To know is to be aware of something as a fact or truth.

Getting back on topic, you haven't explained how you know that homosexuals are not born that way.
How can you be so certain of your statement?

[rodclark]

There are zero verses in the Bible that support homosexuality. To the contrary there are many which declare it to be sin. Read chapter 1 of Romans for starters. There is absolutely no question about this. Don't take my word about this. Read the Bible.

[rodclark]

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and
receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who
practice them.

[Schreck5]

It is interesting that you are appealing to the Ten Commandments as the end all list of what is and isn't a sin. You recently dismissed half of these commandments in one of your previous posts (I think it was the post where you told us you rarely sin--post #34 in this thread).

The Bible's prescription for sexual activity limits it to the confines of a marriage between a man and woman. Any activity outside of this boundary is "sexual immorality." There are potential adverse consequences of sexual immorality.

Heterosexual fornication/adultery can result in unwanted pregnancy, spread of disease, psychological harm, predatory activities and damage to family integrity.

Homosexual activity can result in all of the preceding issues with the exception of pregnancy. The likelihood of spreading disease is increased tremendously due to the mechanics involved and the fact that male homosexuals are more prone to promiscuity than heterosexual men. There also seems to be more mental health problems among gay people that are not associated with how society views them. The long-term, monogamous gay relationship is rare.

It is difficult to find unbiased data on homosexual lifestyles today. As a society we have accepted the practice and now are reluctant (or forbidden) to criticize it. But the harmful aspects are still there and are not going away.


Jesus said "you shall love the lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. this is the great and first commandment. and a second is like it. you shall love your neighbor as yourself. on these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets. "matthew chapter 22 verses 37-40. god is the one who is hurt because he is the judge who will cast them into outer darkness. he wants all men to be saved but because of their darkened mind all cannot be saved. broad is the path to destruction and narrow is the pathway to life. the mind of man cannot comprehend the mind of god, so are we a believer of how god said we should live and worship or are we that person who does not believe god and will fall into judgement?


IF YOU ARE REALLY ASKING (this is from another thread):

The Old Testament was for Israel as a contracted way to live. The Law contained components of ceremony (clean vs unclean, dietary rules, etc.), sacrifices and morality. It also contains the history of God's interaction with man in general and Israel specifically.

With the coming of Jesus, the ceremony and sacrifices no longer apply to God's people: the Church. Additionally, the Law no longer applies as a way to live in order to please God. We please God with our faith in Christ which leads to a life no longer characterized by sin. The history of God and man is valuable in showing God's loving character.

This leaves the moral commands of the Law. What does the Church do with them? God is still opposed to the immoral acts he prohibited in the Old Testament. God's people are still not to fornicate, murder, steal, hit their parents, practice homosexuality, etc. The big items are re-stated in the New Testament. In fact, all but one of the 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament (keeping the Sabbath holy is not). Most importantly, Jesus summed up the moral components of the Law: "Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself." God will always expect this from his people and to not do so is sin.

While the moral component of the Law has not changed, God's people no longer seek to be justified by following the Law. It is important to note that the Church is not charged with enforcing moral requirements in society as Israel was. What I mean is the Church does not stone adulterers or homosexuals.

You have spoken the Truth so eloquently. I have been trying to wrap my brain around those same eczact thoughts, but just couldnt seem to put the words togather in a clear manner. Thank you, Bruce

[dverna]

What are the scriptures that support homosexuality in the Bible?

Gentlemen,
Above is the original question I asked.

I understand many wish to share their personal opinions about the subject but that evades the question. I do not believe the Bible is inerrant but I was searching for one shred of Scripture that supports homosexuality.

We are entitled to our own opinions, but for those who look to the Bible for direction and guidance, the answer is "No!"

My friend, who supports the split of the UM church, was also unable to provide any Biblical reference that permits homosexuality. The rationale appears to revolve around: not judging others, loving others, we are all sinners, and every sin is equal. But that again skirts the question.

I hope my friend accepts my "narrow minded" perspective and we remain friends. I trust all here can disagree and still be friends.

It may be appropriate to close the thread, as my question has been answered. I will leave that to the judgement of the moderators.

[rodclark]

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

[1hole]

Rod, you make an excellent response just by reciting Romans 1. There is no way any of us can improve on scripture when countering foolish arguments against what is plainly written.

I've long been stunned by people publicly presenting themselves as intellectuals when they loudly (and ignorantly) effectively say, "Little or nothing in the New Testament says anything against the homosexual lifestyle." Goodness! I'm sure you know the NT addresses it more often, and more clearly, than the OT!

[a danl]

There are zero verses in the Bible that support homosexuality. To the contrary there are many which declare it to be sin. Read chapter 1 of Romans for starters. There is absolutely no question about this. Don't take my word about this. Read the Bible.

besides, they ridicule us for repeating the bible, it's not our opinion, it's god's word to us. otherwise how would a man know what sin is?

[wv109323]

I did not read nearly any of the respondants but I will relay what happened in my parents church.
The Methodist leadership explained that the physical building and its contents were the property of the national organization. As a member you could stay and abide by the national policy of the Methodist,which supports the LGBTQ or you could leave the church.
In my parents church the vast majority have decided to leave their church. The Methodist were barely able to supply a minister for services before this. It is predicted the church will fold as the group leaving is the financial backbone of the church.
The end result is a church that is 100 y.o. will close its doors. This policy can not be acceptable to God. Closing local churches can not be a positive thing.

[a danl]

i did not read nearly any of the respondants but i will relay what happened in my parents church.
The methodist leadership explained that the physical building and its contents were the property of the national organization. As a member you could stay and abide by the national policy of the methodist,which supports the lgbtq or you could leave the church.
In my parents church the vast majority have decided to leave their church. The methodist were barely able to supply a minister for services before this. It is predicted the church will fold as the group leaving is the financial backbone of the church.
The end result is a church that is 100 y.o. Will close its doors. This policy can not be acceptable to god. Closing local churches can not be a positive thing.

run and fast...

[1hole]

WV, I know what you mean but I suspect God is more concerned about religious social club churches that have left Him.

[Thundarstick]

I did not read nearly any of the respondants but I will relay what happened in my parents church.
The Methodist leadership explained that the physical building and its contents were the property of the national organization. As a member you could stay and abide by the national policy of the Methodist,which supports the LGBTQ or you could leave the church.
In my parents church the vast majority have decided to leave their church. The Methodist were barely able to supply a minister for services before this. It is predicted the church will fold as the group leaving is the financial backbone of the church.
The end result is a church that is 100 y.o. will close its doors. This policy can not be acceptable to God. Closing local churches can not be a positive thing.

West Virginia? Is there not a church on every corner there? The local "church" didn't close! They may have left the building, but the "church" is alive and well! I read about a UM church in Jackson that voted to leave the organisation that simply dropped the UM to become "The North Church", looks like they may be going to court over who owns what property, but at this time the leavers occupie it. Property is the ONLY hold the UM has on the small Methodist congregations around here, and the ones I know of are seriously looking into leaving the organisation over this abomination being forced on them. I don't think God gives a poot in a whorl wind about a conglomeration of timber, stone, and plaster, but more about following his word, and some folks understand that!

[1hole]

"Progressive" religious liberals have badly fractured the once stalwart Methodist denomination. (And others as well.)

In the late 70s, I attended a "Wesleyan" Methodist church for several years; fine folk and sound preaching, some of the best I've ever heard. A lot of old line Methodists had split from the arch liberal "United" Methodists. They added "Wesleyan" to distinguish themselves from the secularist corruption of fundamental Christian doctrines under the "United" group's control. (Wesleyan's eventually dropped "Methodist" from their label to further separate themselves from the United Methodists). The U.M.s lost a lot of good people in that but the bosses were obviously Christian in name only and old timers could not be a part of that movement.

United Methodist controllers say they just wanted to make "everyone" feel welcome but that's a specious lie; what they wanted was more people/money.

ALL churches want everyone to feel welcome but few are ready to let social rebels seize control of their pulpits and then spout feel-good (Satanic and non-Christian) worldviews in order to attract a wider audience. And more money. Same things are happening with other once strong denominations.

What motivates denominational leaders to teach counter to scripture? Truth is, they have lost many people and it's hurt contributions so badly the bosses felt they MUST stop preaching Christianity and effectively become nicely dressed "feel good" religious social clubs that won't teach/preach anything that might make unrepentant sinners feel uncomfortable. Such "liberals" have an easy way to deal with uncomfortable personal sins; they simply refuse to say anyone is a lost sinner needing Christ!!

Methodists have a rigid episcobale (top down) system of government. When liberals gain power over anything they hold onto it with tightly clinched claws so it's nearly impossible to throw them out.

Domineering lib controllers always strive to keep descienting views from being heard (as in our government controlled "public" education system and our "scientific" global warming establishment) so they can win every public argument. At least until their whole system of whatever crumbles in its fouled tracks.

[Rizzo]

An how do you know that none of them are born that way. More people than you imagine are born with incomplete or not properly differentiate genitals. How do you know who is born with what predispositions.

Tim


To know: To perceive directly. To know is to be aware of something as a fact or truth.

Getting back on topic, you haven't explained how you know that homosexuals are not born that way.
How can you be so certain of your statement?

So, here we go again 1Hole.
You make a statement and when confronted about it we get crickets.
Chirp, .......Chirp, ......Chirp.

Perhaps you've realized that it is just your opinion?

[dverna]

I did not read nearly any of the respondants but I will relay what happened in my parents church.
The Methodist leadership explained that the physical building and its contents were the property of the national organization. As a member you could stay and abide by the national policy of the Methodist,which supports the LGBTQ or you could leave the church.
In my parents church the vast majority have decided to leave their church. The Methodist were barely able to supply a minister for services before this. It is predicted the church will fold as the group leaving is the financial backbone of the church.
The end result is a church that is 100 y.o. will close its doors. This policy can not be acceptable to God. Closing local churches can not be a positive thing.

It is surely a sad outcome. Regrettably, in many churches it comes down to money. Those who stay are those who must support a church financially.

The UM has put itself in a no-win situation when about 1/2 of their members will not support the new LGBTQ thinking. The 1/2 that does support the new thinking are in for a rough ride as I doubt people are going to flock to them - so where will the funding come from. The traditional UM church goers will find other churches that are more in line with their scriptural beliefs.

[1hole]

So, here we go again 1Hole.
You make a statement and when confronted about it we get crickets.

Rizzo, I made my statement and that's enough. I believe my statements are clear enough to be understood and I have no interest in jousting with anyone who's just looking for a sputter fight. I'm not trying to build a website guru image and I feel no need to struggle around about it.

What do you think would be gained by publically thrashing around about something that won't change anyone's mind an inch anyway?

This question reminds me of a wise story I once heard, it's about why no one should wrestle with pigs on their own ground. Seems no one really wins, the pigs enjoy it and the wrestler gets as muddy as the pigs. There's real wisdom in that story.

(Seems the Republican Senate isn't interested in any more mud wallowing with Schief/Nadler/Peloesy and the DNC's "fake news" media; I like that too. :))

[dtknowles]

I think maybe so real truth is being told. The divided United Methodist Church is splitting over a vision of the future.
The choice appears to be a smaller Church that retains its current values or a growing Church that can appeal to younger people.
Sort of like what happened in the Jewish Faith. Some stayed Orthodox and some went reformed.
Not so many Orthodox Jews anymore.
Same thing happened with Muslims, Some stayed Sunni and some reformed to Shia.
Christians did it once already or really many times
Catholics
Episcopalians
LDS
Baptists
Lutherans
Methodists
Congregational
Pentecostals
Coptic
Eastern Orthodox
and more.

There is but one God but not a lot of agreement on what God wants. I get criticized because I have my own opinion and don't support any particular religion. It is clear we all are wrong or at best some tiny congregation somewhere might be right but I doubt it.

Tim

[kungfustyle]

This is not a question if you read the bible!

[ioon44]

This!

[1hole]

Amen.

I know what I "THINK" isn't what matters, God doesn't answer to me. I don't know anything that He doesn't know better and He won't bend to my will so it's what HIS book of scripture says that matters; scripture is HIS message to all mankind and we don't have the option of editing it to say what we may like better.

Men of good will can and do honestly differ in how to apply some parts of the Bible but there is no ambiguity in the cardinal points. One of the most clearly stated points is that the "gay" lifestyle is the wrong way to live and nothing I or anyone else can "think" will change it. LGBTDNC United Methodists, Episcopals, et al, know that, now they should actually think about it.

[Battis]

I have to ask, and I'm not belittling anyone's beliefs (I was raised Catholic): does anyone really believe that a gay man, or woman, can become straight? I do not condone their lifestyle at all, but can they change? And, if God created everything, did he not create gay people?

[Rizzo]

Rizzo, I made my statement and that's enough. I believe my statements are clear enough to be understood and I have no interest in jousting with anyone who's just looking for a sputter fight. I'm not trying to build a website guru image and I feel no need to struggle around about it.

What do you think would be gained by publically thrashing around about something that won't change anyone's mind an inch anyway?

This question reminds me of a wise story I once heard, it's about why no one should wrestle with pigs on their own ground. Seems no one really wins, the pigs enjoy it and the wrestler gets as muddy as the pigs. There's real wisdom in that story.

(Seems the Republican Senate isn't interested in any more mud wallowing with Schief/Nadler/Peloesy and the DNC's "fake news" media; I like that too. :))

Look, I'll leave it with this,...it's pretty simple.
You made a statement that caught my and other's eye.
I wondered how you could make such a statement, so I asked.
It's that simple.

You seem to take it as some sort of attack on you, which it isn't.
Now you state that you made your statement and that is enough.:roll:

If you state something, you should be ready to back it up.
Otherwise you look like someone with no accountability....or credibility.

[a danl]

I have to ask, and I'm not belittling anyone's beliefs (I was raised Catholic): does anyone really believe that a gay man, or woman, can become straight? I do not condone their lifestyle at all, but can they change? And, if God created everything, did he not create gay people?

god can change anybody through the works of the holy spirit...check out how he changed paul on the way to damascus and the life style he had before god changed him.

[dverna]

I have to ask, and I'm not belittling anyone's beliefs (I was raised Catholic): does anyone really believe that a gay man, or woman, can become straight? I do not condone their lifestyle at all, but can they change? And, if God created everything, did he not create gay people?

I doubt they can change. Any more than we can change from being sinners. Their sin is different in that it is a sin particular to them and not tempting to most of us. But they want to make it "normal" and not a sin.

The question is not if they can change, the question is, does a church allow sinners who are unrepentant to serve in leadership roles. The UM church has declared that homosexuality is not a sin....that makes no sense!

All pastors and church leaders sin. If they are worth anything, they recognize their sin and repent. They do not stand at the pulpit and flaunt it or normalize it.

[Ickisrulz]

god can change anybody through the works of the holy spirit...check out how he changed paul on the way to damascus and the life style he had before god changed him.

How much was Paul really changed? Does anyone think he was an unrepentant sinner (a thief, fornicator, etc.) prior to his vision of Jesus? I am sure his life style was above reproach when evaluated by anyone who knew him.

His goal was to wipe out a message that was contrary to his understanding of how to please God, in other words heresy. He was under the honest impression he was doing God's work. He was corrected by Jesus and that changed the way he looked at pleasing God. The rest is history.

[Wayne Smith]

To answer the question are homosexuals born that way? Of course they are, we are all born polysexual. We are all born sinners, homosexual behavior is only one relatively minor iteration of sin.

What is interesting to note is that in the Old Testament every use of the term is a verb. That is, God is condemning the behavior and nothing more. There is not an issue of what we consider identity. Besides, if I am a Christian my identity is in Christ and any other identity placed before that is sinful. That is, there is no such thing as a 'homosexual Christian' - that very statement of identity breaks the first commandment.

[1hole]

Look, I'll leave it with this,...it's pretty simple.
You made a statement that caught my and other's eye.
I wondered how you could make such a statement, so I asked.
It's that simple.

You seem to take it as some sort of attack on you, which it isn't.
Now you state that you made your statement and that is enough.:roll:

If you state something, you should be ready to back it up.
Otherwise you look like someone with no accountability....or credibility.

One at a time, first, you don't know if my rambling thoughts on homosexuals "caught" anyones eye. Or if anyone cares what I think; they shouldn't care. I simply shared what I believe as perhaps a thought provoker for others to consider for themselves. I feel no burden to convience anyone of my position.

Next, no, I saw no attack, per se, that's your own projection. But you were obviously challenging me to justify what I said. Instead of justification, I say you're a big boy now so you think about it and draw your own conclusions. Or go seek someone who cares what you think.

Finally, I back up important stuff. As I said before, I'm not trying to build a web following so I'll let you have the floor back now.

[Battis]

Define free will. We can't choose the moment we were born, who we were born to, where we were born, our eye color, body style, our gender, etc.

[dtknowles]

This is not a question if you read the bible!

You mean it is not a question if you believe the bible. Reading is not believing.

Tim

[dtknowles]

god can change anybody through the works of the holy spirit...check out how he changed paul on the way to damascus and the life style he had before god changed him.

You know this to be true, how? How do you know it is not just a parable or complete fiction?

Tim

[dtknowles]

I doubt they can change. Any more than we can change from being sinners. Their sin is different in that it is a sin particular to them and not tempting to most of us. But they want to make it "normal" and not a sin.

The question is not if they can change, the question is, does a church allow sinners who are unrepentant to serve in leadership roles. The UM church has declared that homosexuality is not a sin....that makes no sense!

All pastors and church leaders sin. If they are worth anything, they recognize their sin and repent. They do not stand at the pulpit and flaunt it or normalize it.

Could not maybe 2000 years of changes made it such that Homosexuality is no longer a sin. Possibly it no longer is an abomination such as it was millenniums ago. We no longer need to be fruitful and multiply. We have overdone that already. I think the bible is tired after all this time. No longer holds the wisdom it held just a few hundred years ago. I think Confucius' writings that are even older have better weathered the passing of time. Even some of his stuff is stale.

Tim

[dtknowles]

One at a time, first, you don't know if my rambling thoughts on homosexuals "caught" anyones eye. Or if anyone cares what I think; they shouldn't care. I simply shared what I believe as perhaps a thought provoker for others to consider for themselves. I feel no burden to convience anyone of my position.

Next, no, I saw no attack, per se, that's your own projection. But you were obviously challenging me to justify what I said. Instead of justification, I say you're a big boy now so you think about it and draw your own conclusions. Or go seek someone who cares what you think.

Finally, I back up important stuff. As I said before, I'm not trying to build a web following so I'll let you have the floor back now.

Yup, I mostly don't care what you think. What you said, did catch my eye and I challenged you on it. Not to make you respond but as a message to other readers that what you said was wrong. I said my piece and let it go but Rizzo pick up on it. I guess he as not figured out what kind of forum member are you.

You and I have each others measure.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Define free will. We can't choose the moment we were born, who we were born to, where we were born, our eye color, body style, our gender, etc.

Free will is the illusion that we can be different than we are. That there are forks in the road and it is not predetermined which branch we will follow.

If you ever feel like a pawn, it might be because you are. Everyone deserves to go to heaven because God put us on our paths and we are going to be whatever he willed.

If you are born in a ****hole country and have to kill and steal to survive and have never heard of or seen a bible. You are not going to hell.

Tim

[JimB..]

Free will is the illusion that we can be different than we are. That there are forks in the road and it is not predetermined which branch we will follow.

If you ever feel like a pawn, it might be because you are. Everyone deserves to go to heaven because God put us on our paths and we are going to be whatever he willed.

If you are born in a ****hole country and have to kill and steal to survive and have never heard of or seen a bible. You are not going to hell.

Tim

Tim, any parent with young children will tell you that they can often predict how their children will act in a specific situation. Sometimes the behavior is consistent with training and sometimes it is contrary to training. Does the parent make the child behave in that way? i think it the same with us and God, he knows how we will choose, but we still choose.

While I disagree with your first two statements I do agree with the third, and I’ll go even further most of the time.

[Hickory]

This is not a question if you read the bible!

The answer is, when you read the Bible.

[Wayne Smith]

Could not maybe 2000 years of changes made it such that Homosexuality is no longer a sin. Possibly it no longer is an abomination such as it was millenniums ago. We no longer need to be fruitful and multiply. We have overdone that already. I think the bible is tired after all this time. No longer holds the wisdom it held just a few hundred years ago. I think Confucius' writings that are even older have better weathered the passing of time. Even some of his stuff is stale.

Tim

What part of 'immutable' do you not understand? God does not change, and I would argue that mankind is just as screwed up now as we were in the Old Testament days. Just because, or maybe specifically because I don't want to believe something doesn't mean it isn't still true. I don't deign to claim I understand God, he is so far beyond me that it is ridiculous to think that. But I can struggle to understand His word, and that I do.

[1hole]

Christianity is not a religious buffet where we can pick and choose only what we want.

Intellectual honesty requires we choose or reject God as He is, whole thing or nothing. I mean, devising a comfortable religious philosophy of our own while claiming we "partially" believe "in God" and then professing ourselves to be Christian based on what we have devised is the ultimate dishonesty.

God's life rules are for our own good, not his. That includes his preclusion of homosexuality.

[dverna]

Christianity is not a religious buffet where we can pick and choose only what we want.



Regrettably, is it. We have hundreds of denominations because man has done just that.

I believe a homosexual is still a Christian, if they accept they are committing a sin. Where the issue arises is when a church redefines God's definition of sin.

And Tim, you are entitled to your view of the Bible but it does not help those of using the Bible as our term of reference. In my case, I do not believe the Bible is perfect or inerrant, but I believe most of it. If/when God knows we are ready for an update, He will give us a "Newer Testament". Until then, it is His word as best we know.

For those who may question what parts of the Bible I question it is not that simple to answer. Part of my doubt comes from science. Some from parables that lead me to poor conclusions on how to live my life. Part from knowing man wrote and translated it; man is fallible and every man has an agenda; and lastly, why some books are not included.

[dtknowles]

I know that it would be hard and probably inappropriate to be specific about what acts homosexuals perform that are sinful. I also imagine that those same acts performed between a man and a woman are considered sinful.

I guess it is safe to just label the hole basket of sex acts sodomy and say that sodomy is the sin and not a man's love for a man or a woman's love for another woman. I don't believe love is a sin.

I imagine the same would apply to Trans persons. If they don't engage in sodomy they are not sinning. After gender reassignment surgery, it gets muddy about if they would be homosexual. I think clearly that a woman who identifies as a man and a man who identifies as a woman could marry and not be homosexual. I have seen plenty of marriages where clearly the woman was the one who wore the pants and you don't know that the man did not wear panties in private.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Regrettably, is it. We have hundreds of denominations because man has done just that.

I believe a homosexual is still a Christian, if they accept they are committing a sin. Where the issue arises is when a church redefines God's definition of sin.

And Tim, you are entitled to your view of the Bible but it does not help those of using the Bible as our term of reference. In my case, I do not believe the Bible is perfect or inerrant, but I believe most of it. If/when God knows we are ready for an update, He will give us a "Newer Testament". Until then, it is His word as best we know.

For those who may question what parts of the Bible I question it is not that simple to answer. Part of my doubt comes from science. Some from parables that lead me to poor conclusions on how to live my life. Part from knowing man wrote and translated it; man is fallible and every man has an agenda; and lastly, why some books are not included.

You maybe have missed the point. I don't think you should be leaning so heavily on the Bibles for guidance. The only thing we have that says the Bibles are the word of God is the Bibles themselves. That kind of circular reasoning is illogical.

There is a huge amount of philosophical literature and the Bible is a proven source of wisdom but the bible is not the best source when trying to determine what is moral or immoral. Making a Cult around a Martyr and declaring the words of his Apostles the word of God, well, I for one don't buy it and two thirds of the people on the planet don't buy it.

It is just a matter of fact that most people if they follow a religion follow the religion of their parents, the one that is popular where they grew up or convert to the popular religion where they are living. It is often a huge disadvantage if you don't follow the religion popular where you are living.

In a way I am an Evangelical, I am calling on people to open their eyes and educate themselves more widely and not be constrained to a narrow vision of God and God's plan for the Universe, which includes the realms of the afterlife.

Parochial Christian views leads to improper discrimination against people who have other beliefs.

Some people here misunderstand me and consider me an Atheist. I am not an Atheist, I believe in the one and only God the maker of the Universe. I don't believe he created the universe the way it is described in the bible. That is just someone, a humans, not Gods fantasy about how the world was created. The same with the stories about Adam and Eve and Lucifer and the angels. I believe the stories about Jesus' second coming are human wishful thinking.

Of course devout Christians will call me evil and a heretic. I don't think most Christians are evil, they don't badly discriminate against non-believers. If they are true believers and love all their brothers and sisters, everyone on the planet including Homosexuals, they are good. Good people who practice what it is reported that Jesus taught are the salt of the Earth. Some Christians lord their beliefs over others and wear their religion on their sleeve like a badge of superiority. Just be mindful of what you are becoming. I think you are.

Tim

[1hole]

Regrettably, is it. We have hundreds of denominations because man has done just that.

Don, we have well meaning orthodox denominations who agree with the cardinal points of Christianity but disagree on less critical issues. Like: how deep the water of baptism should be; can salvation be lost and regained; how much sin can we commit before going to hell; how long women's skirts must be; are drums and geetars in church sinful; should the leadership be dominated by the congregation or elected officers; is the KJV the only correct Bible; etc. The thing for thinking people to remember about all those questions is that none of those topics are essential to salvation and no one will go to hell if they get it wrong. Thus, IMHO, (orthodox) denominations are not evil.

On the other hand, we do have cults claiming to be Christian but teach alternate ways to attain salvation, teaching some variation of what we call "legalism"; i.e., hoping to obtain salvation by works rather than by faith alone in Jesus alone.

And of course we have a few quasi "denominations" like the Universalists and Christian Science (which is neither Christian nor science) that think all "good" people will go to heaven (if there is one) and, at best, God's eternal life rules in the Bible are only quaint suggestions for the less intelligent folk than themselves. Groups like that are satanic evil, their deluded followers are eternally doomed.


... and lastly, why some books are not included.

You lost me here buddy, I mean, few books are included in scripture. Which books do you mean?

[dtknowles]

Don,........You lost me here buddy, I mean, few books are included in scripture. Which books do you mean?

https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/5-books-that-are-not-included-in-the-bible.aspx

[a danl]

You know this to be true, how? How do you know it is not just a parable or complete fiction?

Tim

you don't seem to understand, it's by faith that anyone can believe and it's by faith in jesus that anyone can be saved. ponder this, eternity never ends.

[a danl]

How much was Paul really changed? Does anyone think he was an unrepentant sinner (a thief, fornicator, etc.) prior to his vision of Jesus? I am sure his life style was above reproach when evaluated by anyone who knew him.

His goal was to wipe out a message that was contrary to his understanding of how to please God, in other words heresy. He was under the honest impression he was doing God's work. He was corrected by Jesus and that changed the way he looked at pleasing God. The rest is history.

everyone that knew paul saw how he changed. before god changed him he persecuted the church of god . and god even forgave him of all his sins and saved him from hell. i don't understand why there is so much searching for the truth in a place like this when you can get so many different evaluations by so many people that are not taught in a church that teaches the bible which IS god's word. if you're truly searching for the truth , i am happy for you but this site alone is not enough. no one person could possibly tell all they would need to know in one sentence.

[snowwolfe]

Without fail, it seems the people that are always complaining about homosexuality are the ones deeply hidden in the closest masking their own true identity. It’s as if the louder they complain the more they can divert attention away from themselves.

[Hickory]

Without fail, it seems the people that are always complaining about homosexuality are the ones deeply hidden in the closest masking their own true identity. It’s as if the louder they complain the more they can divert attention away from themselves.

Your blanket statement covers as much as a postage stamp.

[Ickisrulz]

everyone that knew paul saw how he changed. before god changed him he persecuted the church of god . and god even forgave him of all his sins and saved him from hell. i don't understand why there is so much searching for the truth in a place like this when you can get so many different evaluations by so many people that are not taught in a church that teaches the bible which IS god's word. if you're truly searching for the truth , i am happy for you but this site alone is not enough. no one person could possibly tell all they would need to know in one sentence.

I guess I shouldn't have phrased my comment as a question.

Paul did not live like the devil before he saw Jesus. The change that people saw in him was he started preaching the Gospel that he once persecuted. Again, he did not go from a drunken fornicator to a devout individual. He was devout pre-conversion.

[MrHarmless]

Without fail, it seems the people that are always complaining about homosexuality are the ones deeply hidden in the closest masking their own true identity. It’s as if the louder they complain the more they can divert attention away from themselves.

This, so many times.

I absolutely LOVE every time an anti-gay Priest, Pastor, Rabbi, Shaman, Community Leader, or whomstever the heck gets caught with his hands in another mans cookie jar.

Exposing the gross hypocrisy brings me an untold amount of joy.

That said, I do always sympathize with the painful dichotomy of their lives, having to live in their little world where social norms forced them to constantly justify their actions and repress themselves. That's pretty sad.

[MrHarmless]

Your blanket statement covers as much as a postage stamp.

Your response is funny, but inaccurate. Every year several religious figures with anti-gay leanings get outed for abusing kids or sliding into the DMs of another similarly repressed member of the church/community.

[Hickory]

Your response is funny, but inaccurate. Every year several religious figures with anti-gay leanings get outed for abusing kids or sliding into the DMs of another similarly repressed member of the church/community.

Then my statement is accurate.
There are tens of thousands of religious leaders throughout the US and as you mentioned, several every year.
You imply all religious leaders do this.

[dtknowles]

everyone that knew paul saw how he changed. before god changed him he persecuted the church of god . and god even forgave him of all his sins and saved him from hell. i don't understand why there is so much searching for the truth in a place like this when you can get so many different evaluations by so many people that are not taught in a church that teaches the bible which IS god's word. if you're truly searching for the truth , i am happy for you but this site alone is not enough. no one person could possibly tell all they would need to know in one sentence.

If you are "taught in a church that teaches the bible which IS god's word" how do you know that you are not being deceived? Most of the world's people do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. Why are you so sure you are right? Is faith just a fools belief? Really, what makes the Bible better than the Koran?

Tim

[a danl]

I guess I shouldn't have phrased my comment as a question.

Paul did not live like the devil before he saw Jesus. The change that people saw in him was he started preaching the Gospel that he once persecuted. Again, he did not go from a drunken fornicator to a devout individual. He was devout pre-conversion.

paul was a pharisee and they persecuted christians and he was present and condoned the stoning of stephen. and the change they saw in him was after the lord threw him off his donkey on the way to damascus . i'm sorry but i sometimes think i'm wasting my time with opinions because searching for the truth takes a lot of study of god's word.

[a danl]

If you are "taught in a church that teaches the bible which IS god's word" how do you know that you are not being deceived? Most of the world's people do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. Why are you so sure you are right? Is faith just a fools belief? Really, what makes the Bible better than the Koran?

Tim

if you are a smart person you should compare bible to bible , many times it references itself over and over , that's why i said it takes a lot of your own study time if you really are searching for the truth. also the bible states that Jesus is god and he is the only one that has ever risen from the dead, all other so-called gods are still in their graves. in the old testament god told abraham that his name is "I AM" and in the new testament jesus said that before abraham was "I AM". hope this helps.

[Hickory]

Really, what makes the Bible better than the Koran?

Tim

There is one fundamental difference in the two.
One would have you come to know the loving, saving grace of Christ.
The other would love to kill you for for knowing the loving, saving grace of Christ.

Discernment is part of wisdom and faith in the Christian community.
I see so little of it in some of the posts here, but, I like it when I see it.

[dtknowles]

There is one fundamental difference in the two.
One would have you come to know the loving, saving grace of Christ.
The other would love to kill you for for knowing the loving, saving grace of Christ.

Discernment is part of wisdom and faith in the Christian community.
I see so little of it in some of the posts here, but, I like it when I see it.

Clearly you have not read the Koran. What you said is often said by those ignorant of Islam.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

paul was a pharisee and they persecuted christians and he was present and condoned the stoning of stephen. and the change they saw in him was after the lord threw him off his donkey on the way to damascus . i'm sorry but i sometimes think i'm wasting my time with opinions because searching for the truth takes a lot of study of god's word.

Perhaps you do not understand my point. My point is that Paul's conduct most likely did not drastically change when he became a Christian. The change that people noticed was that Paul now preached the very Gospel he had been trying to wipe out.

Paul considered himself the least of the Apostles ("leasterest" in Greek) because he had persecuted the Church. But he also acknowledged that he was blameless when it came to the Law. Again, Paul was not a wanton sinner before he met Jesus.

[dverna]

Clearly you have not read the Koran. What you said is often said by those ignorant of Islam.

Tim

Tim, I have not read the Koran, so I an one of the ignorant ones.

I have a few friends that are Christians and I like what I see. I look at Muslims, and do not like what I see.

Maybe our media is not fair in reporting the Muslims religion?

[dtknowles]

Tim, I have not read the Koran, so I an one of the ignorant ones.

I have a few friends that are Christians and I like what I see. I look at Muslims, and do not like what I see.

Maybe our media is not fair in reporting the Muslims religion?

Our media does not report on Islam as a religion. They report on Islam as politics. The Jihadist are more politicians than religious leaders. The separation of religion and politics is becoming thinner here in the U.S. as well.

The Koran and the Hadith are a little more aggressive, less pacifist than the Bibles but the Bibles are not completely pacifist either. Islam respects Abrahamic tradition including that the Koran was dictated by the Angel Gabriel. Jews and Christians are not considered infidels if they follow the Bible and do not profane the Prophet Mohammad. The Koran is consider the word of God, the same God as the God of the Jews and Christians. The God of Abraham.

The Jihadist are not fighting against Christianity they are fighting against Western Decadence. The throw Homosexuals out of second story window, defenestration


de·​fen·​es·​tra·​tion | \ (ˌ)dē-ˌfe-nə-ˈstrā-shən


Definition of defenestration

1 : a throwing of a person or thing out of a window
//assassination by defenestration

They strongly believe in prayer in schools.

They do not believe in Feminism. Some of them don't believe women should be educated.

Women who have sex outside of marriage have committed a capital crime punishable by death.

Drinking alcohol is a sin and a crime.

Fundamentalist Islamist make fundamentalist Christians look like playboys.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are more alike than you might imagine. They are very different than Far Eastern Religions.

Muslims fight the west (U.S. and our allies) because we are bringing decadence and depravity to their world. Politically they are fighting for oil and land in the Middle East but morally they are fighting for the same values that Fundamentalists Christians are fighting for right here in the U.S. How would you feel if someone was sending messages to your daughter telling her that she can use birth control and have sex for the fun of it and maybe fall in love with someone of her own choosing instead of the man her parents chose. The Islamist are not happy with that message.

Personally I think all of you are fighting for a culture stuck in the Dark Ages.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Tim, I have not read the Koran, so I an one of the ignorant ones......

Ignorance is a fact than can be corrected by education. We are all ignorant of something. I too am ignorant.

Studying the Koran is as hard as studying the Bible. Few of us can become expert at both. I certainly am not an expert of either. I have studied many religions and I find that almost all of them have valuable lessons. They agree more than they disagree. Respect your elders, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, do not engage in excess, sex, drugs, food, pride, money........love don't hate.

Christianity is not wrong, it just is not the only way. It is not superior. It is good, good enough, except when out of pride it claims to be superior.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I don't want anyone to stop being Christian, I just want them to be better people and respect other peoples beliefs and understand that they don't have it quite as well figured out as they think.

Tim

[MrHarmless]

Holy schnikes, dtknowles.

That was probably the most well formulated and educated comment on religion I've *ever* seen from this site. I was beginning to lose hope. I'm seriously impressed at both the quality of the contribution, as well as the complete deconstruction of the majority of the arguments from less educated and bigoted posters on in this thread (and forum as a whole). I'm not a religious man, but every other bible, koran, or torah thumper on this forum should look to your example for how to be a man of God. People like you will make the world a better place.

My helmets off to you.

[Hickory]

Clearly you have not read the Koran. What you said is often said by those ignorant of Islam.

Tim

Aaahhh, but I have read it. Twice in fact. And those who follow and worship Allah and follow the prophets writings are said to go to heaven, bonus points for killing none believers.
You see Tim, killing is their religion. Dying for Islam is their goal.

Get a study guide, but before you begin read Romans first to get the general theme of what the new testament is about. Then learn the heart and mines of not only Jesus but his followers are well.

Without a changed heart the Bible is is just a book of people and events, a lot like a news paper of ancient times and the twisted lives and events back then.
Quite simply, the Bible is an instruction manual, especially the New Testament on how to find favor with God and do his will.

[Rizzo]

I don't want anyone to stop being Christian, I just want them to be better people and respect other peoples beliefs and understand that they don't have it quite as well figured out as they think.

Tim

Well said Tim.
Bravo!
I totally agree with what you just posted.

Unfortunately, there is a strong belief amongst Christians that reference a mistranslated or misunderstood (IMO) statement in the Bible that states that you do not get to the Father unless you go through Jesus.
In their mind it seems to generate a position that everyone else's belief system is wrong and will go to hell because they did not go through Jesus.
Gotta be a Christian!
It's the only way!

Also, thanks for the link to the missing books of the Bible.
I've read some of the Gospel of Thomas and Book of Enoch.
Very interesting, but it's all heresy , don't you know? <grin>

[a danl]

Holy schnikes, dtknowles.

That was probably the most well formulated and educated comment on religion I've *ever* seen from this site. I was beginning to lose hope. I'm seriously impressed at both the quality of the contribution, as well as the complete deconstruction of the majority of the arguments from less educated and bigoted posters on in this thread (and forum as a whole). I'm not a religious man, but every other bible, koran, or torah thumper on this forum should look to your example for how to be a man of God. People like you will make the world a better place.

My helmets off to you.

how can a man be a man of god if he worships the wrong god? there is only one god and he is the creator of everything including mankind.

[Ickisrulz]

Unfortunately, there is a strong belief amongst Christians that reference a mistranslated or misunderstood (IMO) statement in the Bible that states that you do not get to the Father unless you go through Jesus.
In their mind it seems to generate a position that everyone else's belief system is wrong and will go to hell because they did not go through Jesus.
Gotta be a Christian!
It's the only way!

Really? And what is your opinion of how that passage should be translated and understood?

Even if that passage were not in the Bible at all, the New Testament is very clear that the only path to salvation is through Jesus Christ. It is the central message to the whole book!

[dverna]

Really? And what is your opinion of how that passage should be translated and understood?

Even if that passage were not in the Bible at all, the New Testament is very clear that the only path to salvation is through Jesus Christ. It is the central message to the whole book!

Not the only way...????

Cultures not exposed to the Bible will not be excluded from heaven. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Incas, Aztecs, Native Americans, all cultures before Christ died? Children up to X years of age get a pass? Mentally retarded get a pass?

In some ways Christians have it easy. We admit our sins and try our best not to sin, but sin anyway. By accepting Jesus, we have a path to heaven.

[Rizzo]

Really? And what is your opinion of how that passage should be translated and understood?

Even if that passage were not in the Bible at all, the New Testament is very clear that the only path to salvation is through Jesus Christ. It is the central message to the whole book!

Rather than clutter up OP's thread with more off topic discussion I discussed my views here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?395483-Nobody-gets-to-the-Father-except-though-Me

[MrHarmless]

how can a man be a man of god if he worships the wrong god? there is only one god and he is the creature of everything including mankind.

"Nuh uh. His magic sky man isn't the right one." :roll:

[1hole]

... there is a strong belief amongst Christians that reference a mistranslated or misunderstood (IMO) statement in the Bible that states that you do not get to the Father unless you go through Jesus....

Rizzo, first, it appears I owe you an apology and I happily do so. I recently quoted back to another fellow and mistakenly did so to your name. Sorry about that.

Now, you are free to say what you wish about religious philosophy but you can't rightly say that the God and Christ who made both heaven and hell, who have the power of life and death as they are addressed in the Bible God has provided for his followers, doesn't know what He's talking about. In other words, what you're calling "Christianity" isn't; you hold to the doctrines of the United Universalists. (Good people who apparently open their prayers with "To whom it may concern ....)


In their mind it seems to generate a position that everyone else's belief system is wrong and will go to hell because they did not go through Jesus.

Yes, but it's not something we dreamed up in our minds, it's what we believe because it specifically says so in the scriptures; dreaming up alternate spiritual ideas without any foundation at all is what you have done. Think about it and I hope you'll grant that the One who owns the Kingdom is the only one who rightly makes the rules for admission to his domain.


Gotta be a Christian! It's the only way!"

Yes, it's the only way for us to get where we're going. But, if you can find, or invent, another heavenly place for people that you approve of then find a spiritual landlord who will listen to you; then maybe you can have it your way. But you simply can't do that with the Christian God. Nor should you expect to. ??


... the missing books of the Bible. I've read some of the Gospel of Thomas and Book of Enoch. Very interesting, but it's all heresy , don't you know? <grin>

There are no missing books from the Bible. The Old Testament was concluded some 400 years before Christ. The books you're referring to were known and rejected from the canon of the New Testament by Christian leaders who were near contemporaries of those various books. Those leaders were smart, they pretty well knew who was a valid writer and who was not. Much like today, a few of those early writers were spiritual men and a pile were not!

The various "apocrapha" books were rejected from inclusion in the NT canon for several valid reasons which are much too expansive to go into here. MANY religious writings were rejected by the earliest and most learned founders of Christianity but NONE of those books were ever "lost" or "hidden" any more than thousands of other old documents; if that were so, or even remotely possible, no one would know about them today!

[Hickory]

Our media does not report on Islam as a religion. They report on Islam as politics. The Jihadist are more politicians than religious leaders. The separation of religion and politics is becoming thinner here in the U.S. as well.

The Koran and the Hadith are a little more aggressive, less pacifist than the Bibles but the Bibles are not completely pacifist either. Islam respects Abrahamic tradition including that the Koran was dictated by the Angel Gabriel. Jews and Christians are not considered infidels if they follow the Bible and do not profane the Prophet Mohammad. The Koran is consider the word of God, the same God as the God of the Jews and Christians. The God of Abraham.

The Jihadist are not fighting against Christianity they are fighting against Western Decadence. The throw Homosexuals out of second story window, defenestration


de·​fen·​es·​tra·​tion | \ (ˌ)dē-ˌfe-nə-ˈstrā-shən


Definition of defenestration

1 : a throwing of a person or thing out of a window
//assassination by defenestration

They strongly believe in prayer in schools.

They do not believe in Feminism. Some of them don't believe women should be educated.

Women who have sex outside of marriage have committed a capital crime punishable by death.

Drinking alcohol is a sin and a crime.

Fundamentalist Islamist make fundamentalist Christians look like playboys.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are more alike than you might imagine. They are very different than Far Eastern Religions.

Muslims fight the west (U.S. and our allies) because we are bringing decadence and depravity to their world. Politically they are fighting for oil and land in the Middle East but morally they are fighting for the same values that Fundamentalists Christians are fighting for right here in the U.S. How would you feel if someone was sending messages to your daughter telling her that she can use birth control and have sex for the fun of it and maybe fall in love with someone of her own choosing instead of the man her parents chose. The Islamist are not happy with that message.

Personally I think all of you are fighting for a culture stuck in the Dark Ages.

Tim

You forgot just one thing, if you oppose them or their political beliefs, they kill you!!!
It's their way or cut off the head way.
I can't understand how you can defend the indefensible?

[a danl]

Not the only way...????

Cultures not exposed to the Bible will not be excluded from heaven. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Incas, Aztecs, Native Americans, all cultures before Christ died? Children up to X years of age get a pass? Mentally retarded get a pass?

In some ways Christians have it easy. We admit our sins and try our best not to sin, but sin anyway. By accepting Jesus, we have a path to heaven.

sorry to say, but yes they will, god says they are without excuse because the very creation itself speaks of god. ROMANS chapter1 verse 20. read it for yourself and continue on to the whole book. all the groups you mention worship a false god. jesus is the son of god , that's why we celebrate christmas for his birth and easter as the day he rose from the grave, even our calendar starts as A.D. the week even has 7 days that references creation. remember this god allowed his son to die on that cross to shed his blood for anyone that comes to him , a sinner and repents and believes. god is a jealous god. would you allow 'your' son to die for your enemy so that your enemy could have your inheritance ? meaning heaven.i think not, but that's why god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whoever believes on him may not perish but have everlasting life. JOHN 3;16

[Ickisrulz]

Not the only way...????

Cultures not exposed to the Bible will not be excluded from heaven. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Incas, Aztecs, Native Americans, all cultures before Christ died? Children up to X years of age get a pass? Mentally retarded get a pass?

In some ways Christians have it easy. We admit our sins and try our best not to sin, but sin anyway. By accepting Jesus, we have a path to heaven.

I know of no loop hole in the Bible for those who have not heard the Gospel message to be saved. That is why people have been willing to sacrifice their lives to deliver this message for the last 2000 years.

It may not seem fair to some. But it is important to remember that the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins. The Bible repeats this over and over. Some people will hear the message and some of those will respond and be saved. There just isn't any other way outlined in Scripture.

[6bg6ga]

I've tried to wade thru ten pages of this in the attempt to understand just a tad better. First of all I'm not homosexual. I do have a rather different take on religion simple because I watched my Father drive himself and those around him nuts worrying about whether he committed a sin. I watched my parents go to confession Saturday evening insert Catholic family here and then go to church on Sunday. Dad might watch TV and accidentally see something that was questionable and then wonder if he sinned and run back to church again. My thinking is a little goes a long way. I've watched different religions use guilt as a method of obtaining a better Sunday offering while wondering to myself are they really doing good by the people they are supposed to serve. You ask about homosexuality and God but yet it makes me wonder if some aren't trying to be judge and jury. God is supposed to be all knowing all loving. Wouldn't you think that God since he is all knowing would know for example that (Jack 47) was a blooming homosexual? That brings up a question in my mind and that is why would God allow Jack47 to be born knowing that he would be a blooming homosexual? Do you suppose that God knew that Jack 47 was a homosexual and allowed him to live simply because of his actions he might sway others not to be homosexuals or does God allow Jack 47 to be a homo simply so God can forgive Jack47?

You all speak of the bible and I have tried to understand it but honestly and no disrespect meant it simply seems illogical to me yet there are instances that have been proven. All I see are churches that try to benefit as a result of the amount of money they take in from Sunday's collection. Maybe some religions do provide a service. Back to God and homosexuals.... Ok, it has to be a sin I would assume but is it any different than the guy that fornicates with a woman whom he isn't married to? Aren't both bad sins? How does one sin fall into the category where it should be forgiven and another isn't? Maybe the sin of homosexuality is more grievous in that its possibly as sin against nature also? Even the common barn animals know that they mate with the opposite sex heck some animals mate for life which is probably better than some people here.

[a danl]

I've tried to wade thru ten pages of this in the attempt to understand just a tad better. First of all I'm not homosexual. I do have a rather different take on religion simple because I watched my Father drive himself and those around him nuts worrying about whether he committed a sin. I watched my parents go to confession Saturday evening insert Catholic family here and then go to church on Sunday. Dad might watch TV and accidentally see something that was questionable and then wonder if he sinned and run back to church again. My thinking is a little goes a long way. I've watched different religions use guilt as a method of obtaining a better Sunday offering while wondering to myself are they really doing good by the people they are supposed to serve. You ask about homosexuality and God but yet it makes me wonder if some aren't trying to be judge and jury. God is supposed to be all knowing all loving. Wouldn't you think that God since he is all knowing would know for example that (Jack 47) was a blooming homosexual? That brings up a question in my mind and that is why would God allow Jack47 to be born knowing that he would be a blooming homosexual? Do you suppose that God knew that Jack 47 was a homosexual and allowed him to live simply because of his actions he might sway others not to be homosexuals or does God allow Jack 47 to be a homo simply so God can forgive Jack47?

You all speak of the bible and I have tried to understand it but honestly and no disrespect meant it simply seems illogical to me yet there are instances that have been proven. All I see are churches that try to benefit as a result of the amount of money they take in from Sunday's collection. Maybe some religions do provide a service. Back to God and homosexuals.... Ok, it has to be a sin I would assume but is it any different than the guy that fornicates with a woman whom he isn't married to? Aren't both bad sins? How does one sin fall into the category where it should be forgiven and another isn't? Maybe the sin of homosexuality is more grievous in that its possibly as sin against nature also? Even the common barn animals know that they mate with the opposite sex heck some animals mate for life which is probably better than some people here.

there are good churches out there, if you go on line and check them out you can even listen to their sermons, and by the way if all they want is your money then leave because you can find a biblical answer in 2 corinthians chapter 9 verse 7. please continue your search because god cares about you and your family.

[dverna]

I know of no loop hole in the Bible for those who have not heard the Gospel message to be saved. That is why people have been willing to sacrifice their lives to deliver this message for the last 2000 years.

It may not seem fair to some. But it is important to remember that the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins. The Bible repeats this over and over. Some people will hear the message and some of those will respond and be saved. There just isn't any other way outlined in Scripture.

If you are correct, God is neither fair or just. I hope you are incorrect, as to worship a God that is unjust is not in the cards for me. I will choose to believe differently as I trust God more than I trust man...any man.

The Bible was written by a small sub set of the world in a small area of the earth. It makes no sense to apply it to those who had no way to know differently.

[1hole]

I watched my Father drive himself and those around him nuts worrying about whether he committed a sin. I watched my parents go to confession Saturday evening insert Catholic family here and then go to church on Sunday.

I'm sorry about your father but I've watched the same corrosive effect from Catholicism and other denominations as well.

Keeping people forever in fear of going to hell to control them is understandable in a way but it's very bad theology and they shouldn't be that way. Jesus has paid the price of our sins, all of them, and to teach people that may not be quite enough for some folk to pass some test and go to heaven is a damnable lie.

Jesus didn't lie when he said he had come to bring us his peace, a peace that passes understanding. He didn't say carrying his burden is light to lie to us. Any minister working to keep his charges in fear and trembling of Jesus' anger to control them is NOT teaching the word of God.

Jesus never said any minister/priest can stand between Him and his followers, that idea is also a lie.

As Christians we will never be perfect in this life, we can and will stumble and sin from time to time, but there's ONLY ONE SIN that sends anyone to hell and that is unbelief and a lack of faith (trust) in Jesus as Lord and Savior, not trusting in ourselves -- or in our faulty "church leaders" and baseless "church traditions".

Ministers who speak/teach otherwise to their flock must first ignore Romans chapter 1 to 9. Church captive born-again believers who want to break those horrible emotional ties of religious legalism's spiritual bondage should read the same.


How does one sin fall into the category where it should be forgiven and another isn't?

All sin must be forgiven, without that none of us could ever survive in the Holy presence of God. And the blood of Jesus fully covered our sins - all of them - and He fully paid for our forgiveness some 2,000 years ago. Thus, there is no "purgatory" or half-way house where men must somehow work off sins Jesus hasn't already paid for. (See John 3:17-18 to know exactly who is fully covered by Jesus' unearned, undeserved gift and know it is fully gained at the moment of our mortal death, not after some future badly misunderstood "judgement day".)

How could anyone live an abundant and peaceful spiritual life if he had to tremble at the very thought of meeting the Lord face to face. I ain't much at best and I do my share of wrong things (okay, wrong thoughts) but I pray for His immediate return every night! I know whom I have believed ... and it ain't in me I trust ... or in my preacher, etc.! (2 Tim 12-14. :))

Praise the Lord, his heaven is not a "maybe later" reward - or a "maybe hell" if you aren't quite good enough thing as some (probably) well meaning men/denominations wrongly teach in order to incite fear and more tightly control their flock!

Finally, on homosexuals:

We are all born with multiple latent talents and propensities for this and that but no one is born helpless with no control in what parts of our nature we feed and those we subdue. I mean, you may have propensity to love and play basketball and, if you work at it, you could learn to be very good at it but no one HAS to play basketball! I may have a propensity and talent to rob banks but I'm no robot so I don't absolutely have to rob banks.

Most of us have some strong bent to some sin but we can control the bad in ourselves and most of us do exactly that ... because we want to.

Ditto homosexuals. If they want to live straight they can but, like committed smokers, none of them will ever beat it if they like it so much they really don't want out of that lifestyle. Touchy-feely, highly eddicated innerlecsul libberal's claims otherwise is a blatant lie that doesn't help anyone.

[snowwolfe]

God always gets credit for everything good. Then for the bad.......well you know, it’s all that free will stuff. Seems he can make the earth and everything on it but he doesn’t have the ability to wire people correctly or stop kids from being molested, abused, born with birth defects,or to watch them die of disease. But hey, it’s all part of the plan, right?

[dtknowles]

Yes, it's the only way for us to get where we're going. But, if you can find, or invent, another heavenly place for people that you approve of then find a spiritual landlord who will listen to you; then maybe you can have it your way. But you simply can't do that with the Christian God. !

"The Christian God"

If you worship "the Christian God" then you are worshiping a false idol. There is but one God the God for everyone, Christian and others. If you think the Christians have their own God and others have a different God you are wrong.

Christians think that God want them to do the New Testament thing. The Muslims think that God wants them to do the Koran thing. The Jews think that God wants them to do the Torah thing. God just wants them to do the right thing and people wrote some books as guides and claimed that God told them what to write. They did that because if you told them you made it up nobody would listen but if you claim that God spoke to you, some will follow you, kind of like Moses or Mohammad or the Apostles. The Apostles took a different tact, claimed that a man they followed was God made man and that he rose from the dead. Kind of an new spin. So God did not dictate the New Testament, it is just the writings of some guys who followed a guy who claimed to be God. They claimed he performed miracles. They claimed he rose from the dead. Did anyone who did not follow Jesus support those claims, independent writing to corroborate the Apostles claims. It is not like the Apostles were the only literate people in the region. Why no other writings about Jesus. Certainly if someone rose from the dead it would get more coverage.

Tim

Tim

[dtknowles]

I know of no loop hole in the Bible for those who have not heard the Gospel message to be saved. That is why people have been willing to sacrifice their lives to deliver this message for the last 2000 years.

It may not seem fair to some. But it is important to remember that the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins. The Bible repeats this over and over. Some people will hear the message and some of those will respond and be saved. There just isn't any other way outlined in Scripture.

I is not true that "the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins." Christians believe that. That does not make it a fact. I suggest that everyone will be saved because what we do is what God made is do. We are all God's tools.

Tim

[dtknowles]

how can a man be a man of god if he worships the wrong god? there is only one god and he is the creature of everything including mankind.

First, God should be capitalized. It is a proper name if you are talking about the one and only creator of the Universe. If you are not worshiping that God then you are not worshiping God.

I like that you said "he is the creature of everything including mankind." Yes, God is in everything everywhere for all time but you have your pronoun wrong. God is not male. Read my writings for an understanding of how to refer to God in a non-gender specific manner. God transcends sex and gender.

One of the huge drawbacks of Abrahamic religions is they are strongly Patriarchal. It is a reflection of the society at the time the Torah, Bible and Koran were written. It is one of the ways that those religions are not timeless.

God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, makes me cringe. I understand how it happened but it is so antiquated but still today people use it is suppress the rights of women.

A truly timeless expression of the "Will of God" would not be flawed the way the Torah, Bible and Koran are.
It would be a clear expression of goodness with no coloring by the social structures of the time of its writing.

To tie this back to the original subject. The problem with homosexuality is that too often the sex is not and expression of love. The sharing of sexual pleasure to be approved by God needs to be an expression of love not some headonistic taking of pleasure. That is also why prostitution is a sin. Monogamy is not the real requirement, the requirement needs to be that sex must not destroy love it need to make love. Infidelity is:

"the action or state of being unfaithful to a spouse or other sexual partner" it is not sex outside of marriage it is being unfaithful. If sex hurts someone and not just physically then it is a sin. If you engage is sex that destroys love then it is a sin. Homosexuals who are just whoring around are sinners, if the only engage is sex for love it is not a sin. A man who loves a man is not a sinner but a lover and has God's favor. A man who has sex with men only for pleasure is a sinner and has no favor with God.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Holy schnikes, dtknowles.

That was probably the most well formulated and educated comment on religion I've *ever* seen from this site. I was beginning to lose hope. I'm seriously impressed at both the quality of the contribution, as well as the complete deconstruction of the majority of the arguments from less educated and bigoted posters on in this thread (and forum as a whole). I'm not a religious man, but every other bible, koran, or torah thumper on this forum should look to your example for how to be a man of God. People like you will make the world a better place.

My helmets off to you.

Thanks for the praise. We can and do make the world a better place. I imagine if you are praising me then you are helping too. I really think God if he measures us for an afterlife measures how much we made the world better because we were here.

I could even imagine that our life is a testing ground for a role as an Angel in the afterlife. If you can demonstrate that you can make the world better then imagine how much better you could make it if you were an Angel. Of course if you let it go to your head then you are committing the sin of pride.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

I is not true that "the default state of every human being is "lost" because of their own sins." Christians believe that. That does not make it a fact. I suggest that everyone will be saved because what we do is what God made is do. We are all God's tools.

Tim

Let me point out the obvious:

For the Christian, the authority for faith and conduct is the Bible. What I wrote is what the Bible says, as you pointed out.

Your system of beliefs comes from what you pick and choose from the Bible and your own imagination.

[Thundarstick]

The depth of depravity and ignorance that continues to be brought into the light in this sub forum is simply amazing and repulsive! I pray to God someone isn't wrongly swayed by the evil parlance some spew as enlightened truth!

[6bg6ga]

Where I was raised in Iowa I frankly never came across one single church that didn't dwell on what they wanted you to give on Sunday morning. Being raised Catholic I remember every single Sunday morning the priest used to go over and over how we the people should be giving 5% of our income to the church. Other churches ask for 10% the first 10%. Some ask you to fill out a financial statement before you are allowed to join. The Christian Antioch Christian church I enjoyed going to before we moved went thru about 8 weeks of giving and yet boosted on having brought in 1.5 million dollars from January until April of the year. Eight Sundays in a row were devoted to giving and how we were cheating God if we didn't give the first 10% of our wages. I repaired audio equipment at the church that needed repaired in order to restore its functionality and didn't charge either for parts or my time and was told I could not consider that part of my offering to the church.

Homosexuality and the Christian Church.... seems they welcomed them openly into the church an abomination in my mind having grown up knowing that being a Lesbian or a blatant Homosexual was wrong. I am neither by the way.

Was never taught that I had to read the Bible in order to go the heaven. Based on what I have seen personally I tend to wonder if it isn't more about the money than it is about saving the soul. Each church seems to want to condemn other churches. I worked in different churches due to my occupation and every single church told me that for example the Baptist church was doing things right and the Christian church wasn't. No matter what church I mentioned some denomination was right and another was wrong. I by the way grew up being told the Catholic Church was the one true church. The Lutheran church was an result of people being unsatisfied with the Catholic church teachings and so forth. As a possible result one church condemns Homosexuality while another embraces it. It makes no sense to me. By the way I was also taught "As long as one or more is gathered in my name I also am there." So based on that ...are churches necessary if one can simply pray to God on his/her own?

[dverna]

6bg6ga,

God is where you find Him, but there is value in fellowship with other Christians. Much like posting in this forum.

I personally do not believe in tithing. It was needed in the OT to provide for priests and the destitute. We now have many government safety nets that help those less fortunate. I see EBT cards being used at grocery stores by people who appear to not need them...one time the user stepped out of Krogers and into a Cadillac...but I am sure it must have not been hers...still?

Every church needs funding to support staff and maintenance, so I do contribute what I feel is fair to me. Our current church competed a campaign to raise over $200k for a special needs facility which I did not support. Making it easier for those with special needs, or with special needs children, to attend church seemed self-serving to me. This church already airs its service on the radio, TV and over the internet...so people can hear the word without attending. BTW, I have a special needs son so I speak with some experience. And this facility will need to be staffed, creating another one or two positions, and we already support $1 million in salaries alone! This, in a city of 4000 people.

The bigger a church gets, the more it needs cash.

[Ickisrulz]

Where I was raised in Iowa I frankly never came across one single church that didn't dwell on what they wanted you to give on Sunday morning. Being raised Catholic I remember every single Sunday morning the priest used to go over and over how we the people should be giving 5% of our income to the church. Other churches ask for 10% the first 10%. Some ask you to fill out a financial statement before you are allowed to join. The Christian Antioch Christian church I enjoyed going to before we moved went thru about 8 weeks of giving and yet boosted on having brought in 1.5 million dollars from January until April of the year. Eight Sundays in a row were devoted to giving and how we were cheating God if we didn't give the first 10% of our wages. I repaired audio equipment at the church that needed repaired in order to restore its functionality and didn't charge either for parts or my time and was told I could not consider that part of my offering to the church.

Homosexuality and the Christian Church.... seems they welcomed them openly into the church an abomination in my mind having grown up knowing that being a Lesbian or a blatant Homosexual was wrong. I am neither by the way.

Was never taught that I had to read the Bible in order to go the heaven. Based on what I have seen personally I tend to wonder if it isn't more about the money than it is about saving the soul. Each church seems to want to condemn other churches. I worked in different churches due to my occupation and every single church told me that for example the Baptist church was doing things right and the Christian church wasn't. No matter what church I mentioned some denomination was right and another was wrong. I by the way grew up being told the Catholic Church was the one true church. The Lutheran church was an result of people being unsatisfied with the Catholic church teachings and so forth. As a possible result one church condemns Homosexuality while another embraces it. It makes no sense to me. By the way I was also taught "As long as one or more is gathered in my name I also am there." So based on that ...are churches necessary if one can simply pray to God on his/her own?

What church denomination is most correct in its doctrine? The one that adheres closest to the teachings of the New Testament. After all, this is the source document for Christianity. That is why it is important for a person to be biblically literate. No church will be 100% correct, but it should get the big things right (e.g., homosexual behavior is a sin, fornication is a sin).

The quote is "when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there am I in their midst." The writer of the letter to the Hebrews warned the readers to keep fellowship with other believers for encouragement. Are churches necessary? Many people meet in private homes for Bible study and worship (then what sometimes happens is the group gets too big and needs to find another place to meet). An individual can pray or worship alone, of course. We also have a great deal of teaching material that we can read on our own.

I have never been to a church that made an issue out of money and giving. Had I ever been confronted with this I would not have gone back. In my opinion a break in the service to take up a collection is disruptive without need, but that is how it is done. In Jesus' time, the Temple had a collection box where people would give their money without recognition or compulsion (ideally anyway)*. I'd like to see this method used. For the record, tithing was an Old Testament Law that does not apply to the Church.

*Donations to the Temple were split between the poor and Temple/priest maintenance.

[6bg6ga]

6bg6ga,

God is where you find Him, but there is value in fellowship with other Christians. Much like posting in this forum.

I personally do not believe in tithing. It was needed in the OT to provide for priests and the destitute. We now have many government safety nets that help those less fortunate. I see EBT cards being used at grocery stores by people who appear to not need them...one time the user stepped out of Krogers and into a Cadillac...but I am sure it must have not been hers...still?

Every church needs funding to support staff and maintenance, so I do contribute what I feel is fair to me. Our current church competed a campaign to raise over $200k for a special needs facility which I did not support. Making it easier for those with special needs, or with special needs children, to attend church seemed self-serving to me. This church already airs its service on the radio, TV and over the internet...so people can hear the word without attending. BTW, I have a special needs son so I speak with some experience. And this facility will need to be staffed, creating another one or two positions, and we already support $1 million in salaries alone! This, in a city of 4000 people.

The bigger a church gets, the more it needs cash.

In the case of the Antioch Christian church....my opinion here. More money equals more ways to spend the money.

[a danl]

God always gets credit for everything good. Then for the bad.......well you know, it’s all that free will stuff. Seems he can make the earth and everything on it but he doesn’t have the ability to wire people correctly or stop kids from being molested, abused, born with birth defects,or to watch them die of disease. But hey, it’s all part of the plan, right?

why does everybody always blame god for the bad that happens when in fact they should be blaming the one who caused it in the first place,,,,satan

[a danl]

First, God should be capitalized. It is a proper name if you are talking about the one and only creator of the Universe. If you are not worshiping that God then you are not worshiping God.

I like that you said "he is the creature of everything including mankind." Yes, God is in everything everywhere for all time but you have your pronoun wrong. God is not male. Read my writings for an understanding of how to refer to God in a non-gender specific manner. God transcends sex and gender.

One of the huge drawbacks of Abrahamic religions is they are strongly Patriarchal. It is a reflection of the society at the time the Torah, Bible and Koran were written. It is one of the ways that those religions are not timeless.

God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, makes me cringe. I understand how it happened but it is so antiquated but still today people use it is suppress the rights of women.

A truly timeless expression of the "Will of God" would not be flawed the way the Torah, Bible and Koran are.
It would be a clear expression of goodness with no coloring by the social structures of the time of its writing.

To tie this back to the original subject. The problem with homosexuality is that too often the sex is not and expression of love. The sharing of sexual pleasure to be approved by God needs to be an expression of love not some headonistic taking of pleasure. That is also why prostitution is a sin. Monogamy is not the real requirement, the requirement needs to be that sex must not destroy love it need to make love. Infidelity is:

"the action or state of being unfaithful to a spouse or other sexual partner" it is not sex outside of marriage it is being unfaithful. If sex hurts someone and not just physically then it is a sin. If you engage is sex that destroys love then it is a sin. Homosexuals who are just whoring around are sinners, if the only engage is sex for love it is not a sin. A man who loves a man is not a sinner but a lover and has God's favor. A man who has sex with men only for pleasure is a sinner and has no favor with God.

Tim

yes, you're correct God should be with a capital , also God is a spirit and He is referred as our Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. remember that Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father. He also said "I and the Father are one" that is a quote from John 10 vs;30. also i do not agree with your last segment of your reply, most of it is just your opinion , not biblical backup

[1hole]

Being raised Catholic I remember every single Sunday morning the priest used to go over and over how we the people should be giving 5% of our income to the church. Other churches ask for 10% .... was told I could not consider that (work) part of my offering to the church.

See ** below.


Homosexuality and the Christian Church.... seems they welcomed them openly into the church an abomination in my mind

Open LBGTs are blatant sinners who flaunt their sin before us and effectively shake their defiant fists in the face of God; that's abominable. Sure, the rest of us are also sinners but few of us are happy about it or flaunt our (intermittent and unintentional) sin before the public and no one of us defies God in doing it. So, yes, we all sin but there's a vast difference in heart between them and the rest of us.

I pray for sinners, including queers. There are two in my family at large and a couple more in my extended circle of friends; personally, I love them. I welcome them to come in and sit in our pews but there's no way I or my congregation is going to ordain or even allow one to speak for God from the podium, never mind being a church officer.


Was never taught that I had to read the Bible in order to go the heaven.

Bible reading, of itself, itself has no part in getting into heaven but the Bible is God's way of communicating to his people. (This forum shows how those who are not his people can read it and not understand or learn a thing!) We cannot know God very well if we neglect getting to know his words to us and that comes from Bible reading ... and maybe some intense study.

IMHO, a religious group who says you don't need to read the Bible if you just listen to them should be avoided. They know the less their followers know about what the Bible actually says will keep pew people shallow, ignorant and more receptive to that leader's slick religious BS.

It's a common tactic of religious cults to effectively tell their victims, "By yourself, you can't understand that the Bible doesn't mean what it says, only we can tell you what it really means according to our leader's traditions and our special publications." Gag.

Some cult groups try running in some selections of the apocryphal books. Some invent whole new Bible "translations" which are not translations at all (like Jehovah Witnesses). Some add a vast collection of home-made additions (like Mormons). Double gag.


..are churches necessary if one can simply pray to God on his/her own?

I assume you mean church meeting houses? (First, the "church" is properly defined as all of the called out people of God - i.e., the born again people from any or no denomination.) Anyway, there are no mandatory church meetings for study or prayer. BUT, we are cautioned to not forget gathering together for worship (Heb. 10:25). Independently, we each draw strength from gathering in study, praise, prayer and worship. The assembly also draws strength from us too, so, yes, we should attend meetings with a good group when we can but it's no part of the doctrine of salvation.

Bible reading is a major part of God's speaking to us.

Prayers: Our prayers are (or should be) thought of as our conversation back to God. And, like conversation, there is no wrong or right time nor any special format (or repatricious beads) for us to speak back to our Father. Many of us have frequent conversational prayers scattered throughout the day. Our Father is concerned to hear from us, he doesn't care if we pray kneeling or standing, in chapel or Walmart, swimming or lying in bed, eyes opened or closed, walking or driving, brief or long, happy or broken hearted, speaking of our needs or lifting our thanks, etc. What I mean is, Christian prayers aren't limited to any form of papel oversight.

** Tithing is NOT a Christian requirement ... but a lot of us freely do it anyway; YOU decide if your labor and parts are part of your contribution to church operations, not some money hungry church officer! Seems most of us find that the money we have left after giving usually goes as far as it would have if we'd kept it - I think that's a God thing! :)

[bmortell]

I like how people say the bible tells them how to live their lives. but then everytime someone brings up a thread asking what the bible says about a subject of people lives theres several hundred posts debating eachother

[Ickisrulz]

I like how people say the bible tells them how to live their lives. but then everytime someone brings up a thread asking what the bible says about a subject of people lives theres several hundred posts debating eachother

Actually, if you look at this thread, the members who profess to be Bible-believing Christians universally understand homosexual behavior to be a sin per the Bible. I didn't see any disagreement among the Christians about that whatsoever.

There was some disagreement concerning the biological component of homosexual orientation. But that is not the same thing as behavior.

[1hole]

I like how people say the bible tells them how to live their lives. but then everytime someone brings up a thread asking what the bible says about a subject of people lives theres several hundred posts debating eachother

Assume you think we should all agree, point by point. Would you be surprised if people began a lengthy discussion of their views of RCBS vs. Hornady? :)

[bmortell]

no that's 2 different companys

[dtknowles]

Let me point out the obvious:

For the Christian, the authority for faith and conduct is the Bible. What I wrote is what the Bible says, as you pointed out.

Your system of beliefs comes from what you pick and choose from the Bible and your own imagination.

My belief system is the 7 Cardinal Virtues, the 7 Deadly Sins and what I find that almost all religions have in common. Oh, and some things that science has determined most likely. Not imagination.

Tim

[dtknowles]

why does everybody always blame god for the bad that happens when in fact they should be blaming the one who caused it in the first place,,,,satan

Could be a number of reasons. One, God created Satan. Two God could stop Satan. Three, not all bad things are caused by Satan. Four, Satan does not exist, his existence is a fabrication of the Bible.

I don't blame God for bad things that happen, I ask God to help my understand why he causes them.

Tim

[dtknowles]

yes, you're correct God should be with a capital , also God is a spirit and He is referred as our Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. remember that Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father. He also said "I and the Father are one" that is a quote from John 10 vs;30. also i do not agree with your last segment of your reply, most of it is just your opinion , not biblical backup

Don't you get it yet. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. The bible has some good and some bad and using the Bible as evidence of anything is flawed.

My last segment is not opinion, it is self evident. Like freedom of speech or all men are created equal. Some things are just obvious. If you don't see them that way I would question those who taught you to see them differently. Love is good, infidelity is bad. Hurting people is bad, making people feel better is good. You don't need a Bible to understand these things.

Tim

[dtknowles]

....Some cult groups try running in some selections of the apocryphal books. Some invent whole new Bible "translations" which are not translations at all (like Jehovah Witnesses). Some add a vast collection of home-made additions (like Mormons)..........

Am I reading this right. Did you just call Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons cult groups?

That would be a shining example of Religious Bigotry. Are they as evil as Muslims and Jews? Oh, maybe they are worse. After all Mormons (really LDS) Mormon is an insult, think they are Christian. I guess believing Jesus is your Lord and Savoir in not good enough for you.

Tim

[6bg6ga]

See ** below.



Open LBGTs are blatant sinners who flaunt their sin before us and effectively shake their defiant fists in the face of God; that's abominable. Sure, the rest of us are also sinners but few of us are happy about it or flaunt our (intermittent and unintentional) sin before the public and no one of us defies God in doing it. So, yes, we all sin but there's a vast difference in heart between them and the rest of us.

I pray for sinners, including queers. There are two in my family at large and a couple more in my extended circle of friends; personally, I love them. I welcome them to come in and sit in our pews but there's no way I or my congregation is going to ordain or even allow one to speak for God from the podium, never mind being a church officer.



Bible reading, of itself, itself has no part in getting into heaven but the Bible is God's way of communicating to his people. (This forum shows how those who are not his people can read it and not understand or learn a thing!) We cannot know God very well if we neglect getting to know his words to us and that comes from Bible reading ... and maybe some intense study.

IMHO, a religious group who says you don't need to read the Bible if you just listen to them should be avoided. They know the less their followers know about what the Bible actually says will keep pew people shallow, ignorant and more receptive to that leader's slick religious BS.

It's a common tactic of religious cults to effectively tell their victims, "By yourself, you can't understand that the Bible doesn't mean what it says, only we can tell you what it really means according to our leader's traditions and our special publications." Gag.

Some cult groups try running in some selections of the apocryphal books. Some invent whole new Bible "translations" which are not translations at all (like Jehovah Witnesses). Some add a vast collection of home-made additions (like Mormons). Double gag.



I assume you mean church meeting houses? (First, the "church" is properly defined as all of the called out people of God - i.e., the born again people from any or no denomination.) Anyway, there are no mandatory church meetings for study or prayer. BUT, we are cautioned to not forget gathering together for worship (Heb. 10:25). Independently, we each draw strength from gathering in study, praise, prayer and worship. The assembly also draws strength from us too, so, yes, we should attend meetings with a good group when we can but it's no part of the doctrine of salvation.

Bible reading is a major part of God's speaking to us.

Prayers: Our prayers are (or should be) thought of as our conversation back to God. And, like conversation, there is no wrong or right time nor any special format (or repatricious beads) for us to speak back to our Father. Many of us have frequent conversational prayers scattered throughout the day. Our Father is concerned to hear from us, he doesn't care if we pray kneeling or standing, in chapel or Walmart, swimming or lying in bed, eyes opened or closed, walking or driving, brief or long, happy or broken hearted, speaking of our needs or lifting our thanks, etc. What I mean is, Christian prayers aren't limited to any form of papel oversight.

** Tithing is NOT a Christian requirement ... but a lot of us freely do it anyway; YOU decide if your labor and parts are part of your contribution to church operations, not some money hungry church officer! Seems most of us find that the money we have left after giving usually goes as far as it would have if we'd kept it - I think that's a God thing! :)

I'm confused... If memory is correct we were quoted a bible verse where it said we had to give 10%

[Ickisrulz]

I'm confused... If memory is correct we were quoted a bible verse where it said we had to give 10%

Tithing is an Old Testament Law given to Israel, not to the Church. Not everything in the Old Testament applies to the Church (see post #95).

[a danl]

Could be a number of reasons. One, God created Satan. Two God could stop Satan. Three, not all bad things are caused by Satan. Four, Satan does not exist, his existence is a fabrication of the Bible.

I don't blame God for bad things that happen, I ask God to help my understand why he causes them.

Tim

the first two are correct ; however God did not create evil , satan wanted to be greater than God so he and his following angels were cast out of heaven. and one day God will put an end to satan's reign here on earth. all bad things are from satan because this is a fallen world, and satan DOES exist, just look around you and you will see the evil that exists.

[a danl]

Don't you get it yet. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. The bible has some good and some bad and using the Bible as evidence of anything is flawed.

My last segment is not opinion, it is self evident. Like freedom of speech or all men are created equal. Some things are just obvious. If you don't see them that way I would question those who taught you to see them differently. Love is good, infidelity is bad. Hurting people is bad, making people feel better is good. You don't need a Bible to understand these things.

Tim

if you cannot be convinced by God's word then i can't make you believe either. remember this 'man looks at the outward but God looks at the heart'

[44MAG#1]

I have a question. After 214 posts on this subject what has everyone determined?
To me it is as apparent as the nose on ones face as to what has been learned and it is that everyone has a belief on this subject, everyone is going to do or say whatever he/she can to defend their opinion whether it is right or wrong, everyone believes they are right and the others are wrong. This can be compared to discussing different denominations, which brand of vehicle is the best, which caliber is best, agument about enery, momentum, Taylor Knockout Value, bullet diameter, velocity or bullet weight is the determining factor in killing power.
Without me going into more detail didnt everyone know how this would go? What would the possibility be that anyone wouldnt know how it was going to turn out?
Now in a concise way please lets state what we have learned that we didnt already know about how this thread would turn out.
To me it solved nothing and changed no ones opinion much less belief and I knew this from the start.
I am not trying to be "snarkey" or any other despicable way. Just curious as to what others have to say.

[1hole]

Ah Timmy, as a confirmed innerlecshul "liberal" you only see your opposites in black and blacker; don't you know that may not be fair?

You just can't seem to get it that Christianity is not a religious club where anyone can "half believe" anything and call themselves by a nice label and make it so. So, I'll write this note to you and anyone who wonders if anything you say here is worth hearing.

First, surely you know I don't care what you or any other religious cultist calls me because I know you have no valid reference for doing so. Can you grasp that all Christians here know that you lack any understanding of what you're talking about and it greatly reduces any effect on us you may hope to accomplish?

We have Christian Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. and our core beliefs have the same foundation; cults do not. So, by definition, they are cults no matter what else they say. Mormons and J.W.s claim to be Christians but, like you, their lips (including yous) don't make it so! Cults have an entirely different "jesus", different doctrines and a vastly different afterlife than Christians. And that's not my judgemental or hypothetical put-down, it's what they will tell you.

I grew up with a determined LDS mother who succeeded in drawing my father and younger sister into that fold but, by the grace of God and the fervent prayers of my Christian grandparents, I am no Morman. I have several cousins (that I love) who remain in that cult today. They are all good people, we don't talk religion because we have vastly different beliefs but we hold together in mutual courtesy. And I know some very nice J.W.s too. They've all solid cultists but none of them are the depraved maniacs you suggest and I'm appalled you would say so.

You need to grow up.

[dverna]

I have a question. After 214 posts on this subject what has everyone determined?
To me it is as apparent as the nose on ones face as to what has been learned and it is that everyone has a belief on this subject, everyone is going to do or say whatever he/she can to defend their opinion whether it is right or wrong, everyone believes they are right and the others are wrong. This can be compared to discussing different denominations, which brand of vehicle is the best, which caliber is best, agument about enery, momentum, Taylor Knockout Value, bullet diameter, velocity or bullet weight is the determining factor in killing power.
Without me going into more detail didnt everyone know how this would go? What would the possibility be that anyone wouldnt know how it was going to turn out?
Now in a concise way please lets state what we have learned that we didnt already know about how this thread would turn out.
To me it solved nothing and changed no ones opinion much less belief and I knew this from the start.
I am not trying to be "snarkey" or any other despicable way. Just curious as to what others have to say.

I am the OP and had my question answered. There is no scripture supporting homosexuality. I was not interested in what other religions say on the subject as I am a Christian.

Yes, the thread drifted, but the original question has been answered. The thread drift did not bother me.

[44MAG#1]

I am the OP and had my question answered. There is no scripture supporting homosexuality. I was not interested in what other religions say on the subject as I am a Christian.

Yes, the thread drifted, but the original question has been answered. The thread drift did not bother me.

That really was my basis for asking the question I asked. Didnt you know that to begin with? Now be realistic now, Really?

[1hole]

I'm confused... If memory is correct we were quoted a bible verse where it said we had to give 10%

Yes. But that specific figure was directed to O.T. Hebrews living under the Mosaic Law to gain the approval of God. The Law pointed to the coming Messiah and showed a failed people how much they needed Him. The point of the many O.T. laws were accomplished in Jesus. Lord Jesus brought a new covenant that applies to all people and is predicated on trust and faith in Him, not a check list of rules (see Heb 8:6-13).

The Salvation of God is a matter of the heart, not a list of hoops to jump through, but a LOT of religious leaders want to keep people under bondage to rules (i.e., legalism).

God doesn't hold us to 10% (or anything) in order to be saved but, like the old time temple and priests, our local church organizations must have sufficent funds to pay the bills and support any outreach. But, giving less than 10% is a gift, less is not a tithe.

I suggest everyone pray and ask God for guidance about how much HE should contribute to meet those needs - who knows, it might be 20%! :)

[roadie]

This thread is something in regards to the outright hubris displayed by some believers.

I'm also confused as to why religious threads are able to be seen without logging in, I was under the impression that these threads were under the same category as the Pit.........which is where this one should be......or, just shut down.

Threads on this subject are pretty much guaranteed to deteriorate into condescension, arrogance, and hubris......they bring out the baddies in people.

I have no problem with religion, or religious people, or gay people.....or even religious gay people.....as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me.

[1hole]

I have a question. After 214 posts on this subject what has everyone determined? .... we didnt already know about how this thread would turn out. To me it solved nothing and changed no ones opinion much less belief and I knew this from the start.
I am not trying to be "snarkey" or any other despicable way. Just curious as to what others have to say.

You're not snarky at all.

Each of us post to what's interesting to us. Most of us post in good will while knowing we're not likely to change many minds, we all hold our beliefs too firmly to expect others to easily change directions.

BUT - I believe thoughtful threads are likely to eventually shift the minds of some others. Maybe even including this one! :)

[dtknowles]

the first two are correct ; however God did not create evil , satan wanted to be greater than God so he and his following angels were cast out of heaven. and one day God will put an end to satan's reign here on earth. all bad things are from satan because this is a fallen world, and satan DOES exist, just look around you and you will see the evil that exists.

Jesus Christ, you keep paraphrasing the bible to me. You don't have to do that for the common biblical stuff. I heard it in church for two decades and I read the Bible. I actually was a youth counselor and taught the Bible to kids. I came to disbelieve the Bible when I realized I did not believe what I was teaching.

There is nothing that exists that God did not create. God created everything. There is but one God the creator of the Universe. The Universe, the everything.

Satan is an allegory for evil. The personification of evil, a fallen angel.


Definition of Allegory by Merriam-Webster

An allegory is a work of written, oral, or visual expression that uses symbolic figures, objects, and actions to convey truths or generalizations about human conduct or experience. The word traces back to the Greek word allēgorein meaning "to speak figuratively."

Tim

[dtknowles]

if you cannot be convinced by God's word then i can't make you believe either. remember this 'man looks at the outward but God looks at the heart'

Yes, God looks at my Heart. I hope in my he sees virtue.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I have a question. After 214 posts on this subject what has everyone determined?
To me it is as apparent as the nose on ones face as to what has been learned and it is that everyone has a belief on this subject, everyone is going to do or say whatever he/she can to defend their opinion whether it is right or wrong, everyone believes they are right and the others are wrong. This can be compared to discussing different denominations, which brand of vehicle is the best, which caliber is best, agument about enery, momentum, Taylor Knockout Value, bullet diameter, velocity or bullet weight is the determining factor in killing power.
Without me going into more detail didnt everyone know how this would go? What would the possibility be that anyone wouldnt know how it was going to turn out?
Now in a concise way please lets state what we have learned that we didnt already know about how this thread would turn out.
To me it solved nothing and changed no ones opinion much less belief and I knew this from the start.
I am not trying to be "snarkey" or any other despicable way. Just curious as to what others have to say.

We have learned why that denomination is going to fracture. The split is real and deep.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Ah Timmy, as a confirmed innerlecshul "liberal" you only see your opposites in black and blacker; don't you know that may not be fair?

You just can't seem to get it that Christianity is not a religious club where anyone can "half believe" anything and call themselves by a nice label and make it so. So, I'll write this note to you and anyone who wonders if anything you say here is worth hearing.

First, surely you know I don't care what you or any other religious cultist calls me because I know you have no valid reference for doing so. Can you grasp that all Christians here know that you lack any understanding of what you're talking about and it greatly reduces any effect on us you may hope to accomplish?

We have Christian Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. and our core beliefs have the same foundation; cults do not. So, by definition, they are cults no matter what else they say. Mormons and J.W.s claim to be Christians but, like you, their lips (including yous) don't make it so! Cults have an entirely different "jesus", different doctrines and a vastly different afterlife than Christians. And that's not my judgemental or hypothetical put-down, it's what they will tell you.

I grew up with a determined LDS mother who succeeded in drawing my father and younger sister into that fold but, by the grace of God and the fervent prayers of my Christian grandparents, I am no Morman. I have several cousins (that I love) who remain in that cult today. They are all good people, we don't talk religion because we have vastly different beliefs but we hold together in mutual courtesy. And I know some very nice J.W.s too. They've all solid cultists but none of them are the depraved maniacs you suggest and I'm appalled you would say so.

You need to grow up.

I did not call them depraved maniacs, I don't even call them cultists you did. I respect everyone's right to believe as they wish and if they behave as a religion I will credit them as a religious group. Buddhists, LDS, JW, Jews, Sunnis, Shia, Hindu, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Shinto, Zoroastrian, Universalists all of the are valid religions. I wish I could name some Aboriginal religions to add to the list but I have not studied them.

Your disrespect and distain for other religions is obvious and appalling. Your sense of superiority is a sin. You can't hide it God sees the real you even better than I.

Tim

[a danl]

tim....... sorry, He wants to see a humbled and thankful heart because of what Jesus has done for you. virtue won't work

[dtknowles]

Ah Timmy, as a confirmed innerlecshul "liberal" ...........

Do you think you are sly with your insults? What person calls a man Timmy? My mother stopped calling me Timmy more than 40 years ago. Your not man enough to even use your real name.

I find it hard to believe that you don't know how to spell intellectual so again some deliberate attempt to annoy.

Liberal, you know that on this forum that is not much different than calling someone a "***"

I wonder why the moderators tolerate you.

Tim

[dtknowles]

tim....... sorry, He wants to see a humbled and thankful heart because of what Jesus has done for you. virtue won't work

Again, that is the Bible talking. Believe as you wish.

Tim

[a danl]

Again, that is the Bible talking. Believe as you wish.

Tim

i'm sorry but i have to end this conversation

[dtknowles]

i'm sorry but i have to end this conversation

You don't have to tell anyone to end a conversation, you just stop posting. Telling people you are ending is passive aggressive. You are entitled to stop conversing but you can't expect the other person to give you the last word. Also, why are you sorry? I am glad for you too stop.

Tim

[Thundarstick]

You don't have to tell anyone to end a conversation, you just stop posting. Telling people you are ending is passive aggressive. You are entitled to stop conversing but you can't expect the other person to give you the last word. Also, why are you sorry? I am glad for you too stop.

Tim

One of the very rare things I've seen you post on here that I totally agree with!

We all have our own beliefs, and they develop in each of us for many different reasons, in different ways. Jesus taught the people in parables, and they are still valid teachings today. I can start down a whole list of things that different "main stream" Christian won't agree on, much less nonbelievers, but I can still wish you peace.

[dverna]

One of the very rare things I've seen you post on here that I totally agree with!

We all have our own beliefs, and they develop in each of us for many different reasons, in different ways. Jesus taught the people in parables, and they are still valid teachings today. I can start down a whole list of things that different "main stream" Christian won't agree on, much less nonbelievers, but I can still wish you peace.

Good post!

[snowwolfe]

God created gay people. He either allowed it to happen as the fetus was developing or he put the child in a situation where they were abused and transformed. He has no right to claim it’s a sin after the fact.

[1hole]

Your disrespect and distain for other religions is obvious and appalling.

You sneer at my laffable spelling of innerlectsul but you don't know what it means and then smart ol' you can't even correctly spell disdain! (I'll help; highly eddicated innerlecsuls are pompous snobs who announce themselves as superior beings who are much too intelligent to believe in the plebs' God of the Bible.) In other words, you sir, are too amusing for words. :) :)

Respect? I respect people, I do not respect grossly wrong ideas and feel a duty to attempt correction in potential harmful error. (Like, I respectfully warn people who don't know any better not to pee on electric fences and please don't follow false gods!)

So, you're appalled? Well, I suspect superior ol' you are well accustomed to being appalled by your presumed inferiors like me so that doesn't mean much. (Do you find that appalling?)


You can't hide it God sees the real you even better than I.

Well, we're finally getting somewhere when you admit that God can see anything better than you so you aren't a totally lost cause yet; hang in there!

Now don't get angry, and do forgive me for doing this, I really are trying to stop but you keep challenging me and insist in throwing your d__k on the floor; I just can't resist stomping on it a little bit. Be kool, it's all in phun you know ...

I pray your Great Nebulous Farce - I mean Force - will be with you this day. [smilie=s:

[DCP]

Yes, God looks at my Heart. I hope in my he sees virtue.

Tim

You chime in these posts a lot one has to wonder what you are searching for.
Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior?

[Hickory]

:violin:
A lot of trampled pearls in this thread.
:popcorn:

[dtknowles]

You chime in these posts a lot one has to wonder what you are searching for.
Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior?

I guess you have not read my posts. I have posted several times that I don't believe that Jesus is the Christ and he is not my Savior. I and not searching I am spreading the word that only good works will save you not Jesus' forgiveness. If you do not repent and correct your sins and make the world a better place you will not be saved no matter what the bible says.

Tim

[dtknowles]

You sneer at my laffable spelling of innerlectsul but you don't know what it means and then smart ol' you can't even correctly spell disdain! (I'll help; highly eddicated innerlecsuls are pompous snobs who announce themselves as superior beings who are much too intelligent to believe in the plebs' God of the Bible.) In other words, you sir, are too amusing for words. :) :)

Respect? I respect people, I do not respect grossly wrong ideas and feel a duty to attempt correction in potential harmful error. (Like, I respectfully warn people who don't know any better not to pee on electric fences and please don't follow false gods!)

So, you're appalled? Well, I suspect superior ol' you are well accustomed to being appalled by your presumed inferiors like me so that doesn't mean much. (Do you find that appalling?)



Well, we're finally getting somewhere when you admit that God can see anything better than you so you aren't a totally lost cause yet; hang in there!

Now don't get angry, and do forgive me for doing this, I really are trying to stop but you keep challenging me and insist in throwing your d__k on the floor; I just can't resist stomping on it a little bit. Be kool, it's all in phun you know ...

I pray your Great Nebulous Farce - I mean Force - will be with you this day. [smilie=s:

What is your name?

Tim

[DCP]

I guess you have not read my posts. I have posted several times that I don't believe that Jesus is the Christ and he is not my Savior. I and not searching I am spreading the word that only good works will save you not Jesus' forgiveness. If you do not repent and correct your sins and make the world a better place you will not be saved no matter what the bible says.

Tim

So all you want to do is sow discord in the Chapel because you don't believe in the bible.

I will pray for you Tim

[dtknowles]

So all you want to do is sow discord in the Chapel because you don't believe in the bible.

I will pray for you Tim

Not sow discord. I have come to save those who can be saved.

Tim

[Thundarstick]

Not sow discord. I have come to save those who can be saved.

Tim

Save them from what? A guilty conscience, a troubled mind? Just wondering.

[Thundarstick]

:violin:
A lot of trampled pearls in this thread.
:popcorn:

Not true brother! It brings evil to light, glory to power, and strengthens your brothers!

[dtknowles]

Save them from what? A guilty conscience, a troubled mind? Just wondering.

Save them from the idea they can be bad and be saved just by asking forgiveness/

Tim

[Hickory]

Not true brother! It brings evil to light, glory to power, and strengthens your brothers!

In order for the above to be correct, you have to be winning in your argument. You're not winning.
Some people you can reason with, some people have a mind like the door on a bank vault, there is no combination and it's welded shut.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother. Commenting on thread like this, is like taking a bath in a sewer. That's why it's called 'the pit,'

[44MAG#1]

That is why I asked this question.. "I have a question. After 214 posts on this subject what has everyone determined?
To me it is as apparent as the nose on ones face as to what has been learned and it is that everyone has a belief on this subject, everyone is going to do or say whatever he/she can to defend their opinion whether it is right or wrong, everyone believes they are right and the others are wrong. This can be compared to discussing different denominations, which brand of vehicle is the best, which caliber is best, agument about enery, momentum, Taylor Knockout Value, bullet diameter, velocity or bullet weight is the determining factor in killing power.
Without me going into more detail didnt everyone know how this would go? What would the possibility be that anyone wouldnt know how it was going to turn out?
Now in a concise way please lets state what we have learned that we didnt already know about how this thread would turn out.
To me it solved nothing and changed no ones opinion much less belief and I knew this from the start.
I am not trying to be "snarkey" or any other despicable way. Just curious as to what others have to say. "


In order for the above to be correct, you have to be winning in your argument. You're not winning.
Some people you can reason with, some people have a mind like the door on a bank vault, there is no combination and it's welded shut.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother. Commenting on thread like this, is like taking a bath in a sewer. That's why it's called 'the pit,'

[1hole]

Ah Tim, you want to know my name? You're an amusing collector of trivial data. I'm a shooter; "1hole" is name enough.

I could give you my full name, social security number, USAF serial number mailing address and land-line phone number but what's the point, you would still be as blindly iggerent about me as you are now.

Well now, let's cee; you want to "save" others from you know not what, where or who? But, whatever it is, you have bravely anointed yourself as prophet and savior for all people who are silly enough to put their eternal faith in you? I don't like to discourage anyone but don't hold your breath!

It's well known that there are none so blind as those who will not see; that's sad. I do pray the Holy Spirit will force open your eyes, ears, mind and heart to the wonderful love of God. If so, maybe we could eventually go fishing together in heaven!